Televangelist Pat Robertson Calls Down Plagues of Frogs, Lice, and Locusts on Dover, PA.

Not really, but Robertson did warn the residents of Dover, PA who heretically voted to throw out the intelligent designers on the town's school board:

"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God. You just rejected him from your city."

Robertson later added this clarification: "If they have future problems in Dover, I recommend they call on Charles Darwin. Maybe he can help them."

I just wonder how Robertson can be so damned sure that God is against the teaching of science?

Comments

thoreau | November 11, 2005, 9:45am | #

In the Bible, doesn't God agree to spare a large city for the sake of just 10 honest men? Surely there must be 10 honest people in Dover.

Given the number of parents who voted to maintain high standards in science education, I'd say there are more than 10.

David | November 11, 2005, 9:48am | #

I just wonder how Robertson can be so damned sure that God is against the teaching of science?

Because science that doesn't conform to Pat's beliefs, is a trick of Satan meant to destroy believers' souls. After all, he has a direct line to God. He prays, and miraculously, God tells him he was right all along, that the donations must keep flowing.

Brian | November 11, 2005, 9:48am | #

God talks to him. Duh. It should be noted that this dude, who should be raving on a street corner somewhere, is closely consulted by the White House on its Supreme Court nominees.

I wonder how God's going to smite PA? A hurricane seems like a stretch. Not in an earthquake zone. Maybe a meteor.

KipEsquire | November 11, 2005, 9:54am | #

But remember: Intelligent Design is not "religion," even though God will smite you for rejecting it.

David | November 11, 2005, 9:54am | #

In the Bible, doesn't God agree to spare a large city for the sake of just 10 honest men? Surely there must be 10 honest people in Dover.

That God will not be invoked by men like Robertson. He doesn't inspire enough fear. No, it's far better for people to believe that their deity is a vengeful, petty monster who'll wreak havoc over political fights. That will keep them voting for the right candidates.

Akira MacKenzie | November 11, 2005, 9:54am | #

In the Bible, doesn't God agree to spare a large city for the sake of just 10 honest men?

That was from the Sodom and Gomorra story in Genesis. My interpretation: It goes to show that God isn't just wrathful, but a liar.

Jennifer | November 11, 2005, 9:55am | #

Thoreau, how many times do I have to tell you this? !t was the Old Testament God who offered to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if ten honest guys were found. And the Old Testament God was a lot mellower and more forgiving than the divine sonofabitch Robertson claims to be channeling.

thoreau | November 11, 2005, 10:03am | #

Robertson's predictions of disaster have a rather mixed record. So let's up the ante, to see if a predicted disaster can finally happen: Hugo Chavez should go to Dover, and on the same day one of their tourist attractions (assuming there is one) should hold a gay-friendly event.

Cliff | November 11, 2005, 10:04am | #

Robertson, et al, also convienently tend to forget that Jesus is the new covenant with man. The New Testament is the Christian equivalent of the New Deal. His blood washed away our sins. You can be a mean mofo all through life and repent in the end and all is forgiven.

burt_hoovis | November 11, 2005, 10:07am | #

Robertson's a class-A asswipe to be sure, but he certainly can be relied on for entertainment...Its great fun watching someone too stupid to realize that their actions are undermining those who try to argue that intelligent design isn't about teaching religion in the classroom (perhaps the core lie of the ID argument).

The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2005, 10:10am | #

Sure, Robertson's a putz but I just can't work up the energy to feel very threatened by him or his cohorts. He's about as scary as threats of Haitian VooDoo. Besides, at least the public schools in Dover are safe from retribution because (rimshot) God isn't allowed in public schools.

thoreau | November 11, 2005, 10:13am | #

To be fair, in a very strict, Clintonesque sense, ID is not religion. One could always postulate that alien beings bound by the laws of physics have intervened on our planet.

Maybe they themselves evolved by natural processes. However, their evolution was much slower than ours, and proceeded in the sorts of steps that even ID proponents would have to concede are possible by natural evolution. So then they decided "Hey, let's go across the galaxy and do some genetic engineering, to see what happens." So they have intervened over hundreds of millions of years, adding new traits to our planet's gene pool to see what happens.

I'm sure that the good reverend will be fine with having this theory presented in classrooms. It has no more empirical support than his version of ID, but at least it doesn't violate any laws of physics.

Stevo Darkly | November 11, 2005, 10:15am | #

As a theist, I find this ingorant and vengeful mouthing-off pisses me off to no end. Pat Robertson is a Big Dickerson.

linguist | November 11, 2005, 10:18am | #

"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God. You just rejected him from your city."

What a hateful, un-Christian statement. Honestly.

Uncle Sam | November 11, 2005, 10:19am | #

I wonder what GOD thinks of all these pretenders projecting their philosophical preferences onto GOD?

linguist | November 11, 2005, 10:22am | #

I wonder what GOD thinks of all these pretenders projecting their philosophical preferences onto GOD?

It's been a few years, but as I recall, this was one of the things that REALLY pissed God off.

Mr. Robertson, look out you crazy old goof!

mk | November 11, 2005, 10:26am | #

Pat often makes these kinds of statements. Once he even said that a hurricane bearing down on DC (Bonnie, I think) was god's vengeance. As it turned out, the hurricane veered off and hit Va. Beach (home of the 700 club) instead. You would think that would have been the end of this nonsense, but nope.

The Buckle of the Bible Belt | November 11, 2005, 10:29am | #

Why does GOD hate America?

The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2005, 10:29am | #

Thow-row, you are sooooo wrong. Blue eyed people and Siamese cats came here from the 12th Planet in space ships. They then cloned humans to work in the mines of Northern Africa and the mideast (which is why there is a story about the Garden of Eden and why no civilization predates Sumeria).

At some point the clones discovered sex (tree of knowledge) and eventually intermarried with the blue eyed people and the siamese cats.

Unfortunately the 12th planet was struck by a meteor and disintegrated into the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter thus explaining the origins of the chant that little girls recite while jumping rope that goes something like Boys go to Jupiter to get more stupider. Girls go to Mars to get more candybars. The children don't realize that the reason the boys are stupider is because it is dangerous and stupid to travel through the asteroid belt.

thoreau | November 11, 2005, 10:32am | #

As it turned out, the hurricane veered off and hit Va. Beach (home of the 700 club) instead.

Never let it be said that God lacks a sense of humor.

Sandy | November 11, 2005, 10:36am | #

And I hope next time a disaster hits the 700 club, they call Gawd and not filthy science-based earthly disaster responses such as medicine or fire departments.

Number 6 | November 11, 2005, 10:37am | #

TWC-Wow. Just...wow.

thoreau | November 11, 2005, 10:39am | #

Sandy-

Good point! And if they get infected with bacteria that are resistant to antibiotics, instead of using drugs designed with input from evolutionary biologists (who have some insight into the phenomenon) they should just pray.

Viking Moose | November 11, 2005, 10:42am | #

hey thoreau!

happy friday to you! and i hope it's better than last friday :)

- just remember the chorus to Depeche Mode's "Blasphemous Rumours"...

Sandy: i checked the memo. Apparently EMTs are descendants of the Siamese cats, so are created in the image of the flying spaghetti monster that you can't prove doesn't exist, so therefore exists, and it's quacking sound lulls the three breasted monsters of the planet plaetex to sleep with the rustling of fire hoses and ambulances.

They got that base pretty well covered.

thoreau | November 11, 2005, 10:45am | #

So far it's a good Friday. The week started off rocky, with the code working so well that it seemed to show how useless my theory really was. But on Wednesday a colleague looked at my images and noticed that parts were actually enhanced. So that gave me hope. Then Wednesday night I figured out this elaborate criterion that I could use to get better enhancement. Then yesterday I realized how simple the problem really was, and solved it in stages during a Metro ride, while eating at Baja Fresh, while attending a biology lecture at the Carnegie Institute, and while falling asleep later.

So far this morning my idea has passed its first test. Stay tuned for more.

crimethink | November 11, 2005, 10:46am | #

More and more, I think Pat Robertson is confusing God the Father with The Godfather.

"That's a nice little town you got there, it'd be a shame if something happened to it because you teach evolution in the schools..."

Viking Moose | November 11, 2005, 10:48am | #

Baja Fresh is good. The fresh hot stuff you can add is enough to make a "jalapenoid" out of the staunchest 700 club member.

I forgot: do you use RATS for anything? Or Stata?

RED LINE TO WHEATON!

thoreau | November 11, 2005, 10:49am | #

RATS?

Yeah, I generally add a ton of jalapenos to my burritos. Gives me a nice warm feeling in my stomach.

VMoose | November 11, 2005, 10:50am | #

Sorry for this double:

Crimethink: how about channeling Danny Vermin...

"it's the 0.88 magnium..."
"it shoots through schools"

Mark Borok | November 11, 2005, 10:58am | #

God also says in the Bible that he is slow to anger and quick to mercy (I'm paraphrasing).

Pat Robertson should read the Bible. It's a very interesting book. He might learn something from it.

smacky | November 11, 2005, 11:17am | #

What a hateful, un-Christian statement. Honestly.


That's because. Pat Robertson ain't a lover. He's a hater! A hater!!

Brett | November 11, 2005, 11:18am | #

Sorry, but I tend to agree with the good reverend. It's time Dover was introduced to the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. Where's Brother Maynard?

mediageek | November 11, 2005, 11:23am | #

You know, my faith in God would be a lot stronger if Pat Roberston were to be, oh, I dunno, publically incinerated by a lightning bolt. Preferably during a live televised event.

mediageek | November 11, 2005, 11:24am | #

That's because. Pat Robertson ain't a lover. He's a hater! A hater!!

Hey, don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Rich Ard | November 11, 2005, 11:36am | #

Brett - let the rabbits wear glasses!

The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2005, 11:37am | #

Yeah, I generally add a ton of jalapenos to my burritos. Gives me a nice warm feeling in my stomach.

and a nice warm case of the butt.....

I'm partial to chipotle myself. something about smoking the jalapeno that completely changes everything for the better.

I also remain skeptical that there is good Mexican food anywere outside of Aztlan.

Dude, I had the absolute best tostada ever in Tucson in front of the mission. Made by an Indian woman fresh in front of my eyes. There is nothing like something approaching authentic to make your mouth water. Nothing like that tostada to stop your heart either. Thick crispy tortilla (fry bread) dripping with the hot fat it was fried in then smothered with frijoles, similarly fried in something that you don't want to know about (guaranteed to induce sluggish arterial flow) and then topped with lettuce, tomatoes, and cheese. That Boy (my son Jake), a true Californio, devoured his (sans lettuce and tomatoes) in a hot second.

The Wine Commonsewer | November 11, 2005, 11:39am | #

# 6, thanks, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Don't miss the Wednesday night prayer meeting.

VMoose | November 11, 2005, 11:40am | #

Jake is a good man. :)

Thoreau - nevermind about RATS. it's a time series program. a biochem type i know uses both rats and matlab, that's why i asked.

David | November 11, 2005, 11:47am | #

You know, my faith in God would be a lot stronger if Pat Roberston were to be, oh, I dunno, publically incinerated by a lightning bolt. Preferably during a live televised event.


I'm surprised that they haven't thought to bring some fake liberal activist on the 700 club and have them smote by God's wrath on air. Considering the state of special effects work right now, they could easily pull it off.

"So Mr. Smith, you're saying that you believe a man-man marriage doesn't threaten the sanctity of traditional marriage?" Asks Reverend Robertson.

"Well Pat, I'm just saying that I don't see how one affects the oth"BBBBBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZT Poof!

A quick flash and Smith is flopping around on the floor trying to put himself out before finally succumbing. A stern Pat finally addresses the Camera.

"Praise Jesus, Mr. Smith has combusted right here on the set. We pity him but the fury and glory of the Lord is known! He will not be mocked!"

If they kept it subtle(distant camera angles, but with realistic gore), and mixed lots of weepy conversions with the occasional human fireball, it might work.

Jake | November 11, 2005, 12:10pm | #

Well, he did get God to kill Rehnquist.

SPD | November 11, 2005, 12:16pm | #

Pat's going to feel so stupid when he gets to Heaven and he realizes the Jews were right.

Jeff P. | November 11, 2005, 12:19pm | #

Pat Robertson diatribes have become the slow-news-day equilalent to the waterskiing squirrel to the media. He only gets quoted out of pity.

Viking Moose | November 11, 2005, 12:20pm | #

SPD:

but the correct answer was "Mormon"...

Dogzilla | November 11, 2005, 12:22pm | #

Colorado Springs, home of Focus on the Family, has never been hit with a hurricane OR a tsunami. Earthquake activity is minor, and tornados usually stay safely east of town. QED.

Brian Courts | November 11, 2005, 12:24pm | #

A religion thread without Hak? What's going on... Is he sick? I was rather hoping for another good Friday (no pun intended) meltdown between Hak, thoreau, et.al. That was one of the more entertaining threads (if not all that enlightening) I've ever seen. Though I'd say it looks like thoreau isn't taking Hak's deal to never mention code in exchange for Hak renouncing his flaming. :) On that point, thoreau, good to hear you've got the code working - as someone who has spent many many hours debugging MATLAB code I can sympathize. In fact, I have to work out a couple bugs today so I can send the code off to a company that is funding our work - always good to keep them happy!

zach | November 11, 2005, 12:25pm | #

But remember: Intelligent Design is not "religion," even though God will smite you for rejecting it.

Exactly. Mr. Robertson got so caught up in his righteous anger he forgot to keep up the charade.

"I'm not trying to get religion taught in schools. I just want students to hear all the viewp... NO??!??? WHAT DO YOU MEAN 'NO'??? YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FOR YOUR REJECTION OF CHRIST JESUS!!!"

Akira MacKenzie | November 11, 2005, 12:25pm | #

I'm surprised that they haven't thought to bring some fake liberal activist on the 700 club and have them smote by God's wrath on air.

Believe it or not, back in the '80s, Pat and CBN had set aside funding and made plans to televise the Second Coming.

Akira MacKenzie | November 11, 2005, 12:31pm | #

A religion thread without Hak? What's going on...

Hey! I'm here, aren't I? I might be a little slow after the admitted tantrum I threw over in yesterday's abortion thread, but I think I have another meltdown in me.

Jennifer | November 11, 2005, 12:31pm | #

Colorado Springs, home of Focus on the Family, has never been hit with a hurricane OR a tsunami. Earthquake activity is minor, and tornados usually stay safely east of town. QED.

Yellowstone supervolcano. Patience.

rick laredo | November 11, 2005, 12:33pm | #

The Old Testament tells us .."and the sons of god beheld the daughters of man and found them fair...." Genisi 6, I believe, you read the rest It's a combo of ID and evolution IMO. R

Timothy | November 11, 2005, 12:45pm | #

Remember, Pat, if you're talking to God, you're praying; but if God's talking to you, you're schizophrenic.

Shawn Smith | November 11, 2005, 12:50pm | #

This talk of being smote by God reminds me of the South Park episode "Christian Rock Hard" where Cartman, Butters, and Token form a Christian Rock Band. At one point, they're sitting in a Christian record executive's office and Cartman makes a statement like, "If I'm lying, may God strike me down right here!" Butters then edges away from Cartman. Classic.

VMoose | November 11, 2005, 12:54pm | #

Jennifer: LOL!!!!!

Akira - yew a chicago dude, arentcha?

As tantrums go, i'd say you were mild and amusing. you're not like others whose tantrums make readers shreak and run for cover - no kidding. I saw StevenCrane all lathered up, running north on Lincoln, shreaking. The fact that this is about three miles from his neighborhood, says something!

Ak: on grylliade there's a thought about the chitown holiday gathering. smacky will be there!

and if RussD (another of us B-list H&Rnners, not the A-list) is around, dude, make it, too!

cheers and happy friday,
Viking Moose

Pro Libertate | November 11, 2005, 12:59pm | #

It's okay, I figured out who Pat Robertson's god is:

     First there was nothing. . .then there was Calvin!

     Calvin, the mighty god, creates the universe with pure will!

     From utter nothingness comes swirling form! Life begins where once was void!

     But Calvin is no kind and loving god! He's one of the old gods! He demands sacrifice!

     Yes, Calvin is a god of the underworld! And the puny inhabitants of earth displease him!

     The great Calvin ignores their pleas for mercy, and the doomed writhe in agony!

Whoa. Or should that be "woe"?

Akira MacKenzie | November 11, 2005, 1:02pm | #

VMoose:

When something works me up into a political/philosophical lather I then to loose most of my inhibitions. I suddenly develop this direct line to my Id (Yes, I know: "Monsters from the Id.") and I start spewing some pretty extreme stuff that I later end up regretting once I calm down. If you want a drinking analogy, I'm the debate equivalent of a "mean drunk."

FYI, I'm actually a Cheesehead. I got your E-mail about the proposed get-together and I am intrigued. It just can't be the weekend of Nov. 26. I'm throwing a birthday bash for myself and my gamer friends. Ergo, it wouldn't work out.

Viking Moose | November 11, 2005, 1:07pm | #

Akira:

we'll let you know when and where.

Happy birthday.

and - thoreau is a cheezhead. i think RC is/was, too. and mom is from dodge county and i have family all over south central wisc......

but you should listen to henry rollins. it's for all of us fireballer debaters :)

cheers.
Viking Moose

smacky | November 11, 2005, 1:07pm | #

Pat Robertson diatribes have become the slow-news-day equilalent to the waterskiing squirrel to the media. He only gets quoted out of pity.


Jeff P. gets the award for laugh-out-loud comment of the thread.

[/wipes tear from eye]

Ken Shultz | November 11, 2005, 1:15pm | #

...and I start spewing some pretty extreme stuff that I later end up regretting once I calm down. If you want a drinking analogy, I'm the debate equivalent of a "mean drunk."

I think we're all like that to some extent.

I also think we tend to talk about some pretty controversial subject around here. ...and by controversial I mean, whether the President bamboozled us into war, whether it's okay or even desirable to torture people, abortion, religion, etc.

...and there are some pretty freaky true believers of whatever stripe that happen by to champion those causes and denounce the intelligence and patriotism of everyone who disagrees with them. I don't know about you, but when I'm doused in incendiary stuff, I get incendiary.

I often find myself regretting it too. ...and sometimes I carry it around with me and punish other people for it. ...I always regret that.

Ken Shultz | November 11, 2005, 1:21pm | #

Pat Robertson diatribes have become the slow-news-day equilalent to the waterskiing squirrel to the media.

I was thinkin' he's like the Christian equivalent of Badnarik. ...Here me out!

...Christians are always havin' to apologize for the crazy stuff he says.

smacky | November 11, 2005, 1:31pm | #

Would it be all right with all of you if, when I'm trolling as the Christian right, I use the handle "waterskiing squirrel"? I would like that very much.

h-dawg | November 11, 2005, 1:47pm | #

I was more outraged by the media in this story.

They somehow turned Robertson's "And don’t wonder why he hasn’t helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I’m not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city" into the headline "Televangelist warns of evolution doomsday"

At least Robertson was merely being a superstitious fool, not calculating deceiver (this time).

zach | November 11, 2005, 2:05pm | #

The rest of the quote is really just repeating what he said already. I don't see how it makes it any better.

Jon H | November 11, 2005, 2:42pm | #

"Colorado Springs, home of Focus on the Family, has never been hit with a hurricane OR a tsunami. "

Wasn't it enough just getting hit with Focus? And then the countless mega-church aftershocks, and the self-righteous proselytizers-with-bombs emanating from the Air Force Madrassa?

A hurricane or tsunami would just be rubbing salt in the wound.

Jon h | November 11, 2005, 2:44pm | #

Crazy ol' Pat writes: "And don’t wonder why he hasn’t helped you when problems begin, if they begin."

See, God is just like the concierge desk for Christians. But only good Christians. If you're not good enough, you can get your own damn broadway tickets.

Actually, I think when God talks to Pat Robertson, it's actually Pat's prostate acting up.

Rick Barton | November 11, 2005, 2:49pm | #

Surely there must be 10 honest people in Dover.

Yeah, it's not like they're all government bureaucrats.

Rick Barton | November 11, 2005, 2:53pm | #

smacky,

Ski to your heart's content, you squirrel. :)

Syd Henderson | November 11, 2005, 2:59pm | #

The Old Testament tells us .."and the sons of god beheld the daughters of man and found them fair...." Genisi 6, I believe, you read the rest It's a combo of ID and evolution IMO. R

Comment by: rick laredo at November 11, 2005 12:33 PM

It's an example of sexual selection driving evolution. Darwin would be proud.

Eric the .5b | November 11, 2005, 3:02pm | #

Believe it or not, back in the '80s, Pat and CBN had set aside funding and made plans to televise the Second Coming.

Really? I thought one of their tenets was that all the saved Christians get beamed up in the Rapture. Did they have a staff of unbelievers on standby?

NoStar | November 11, 2005, 3:04pm | #

I sure hope Dover isn't Joe's new town.

Akira MacKenzie | November 11, 2005, 3:04pm | #

"...and the self-righteous proselytizers-with-bombs emanating from the Air Force Madrassa?"

Brrrr... the implications of that matter scare the crap out of me. I wonder just how many fundies now have direct access to nuclear weapons? (...and not just talking about Dubbya.)

Akira MacKenzie | November 11, 2005, 3:21pm | #

Really? I thought one of their tenets was that all the saved Christians get beamed up in the Rapture. Did they have a staff of unbelievers on standby?

Read "The Faith Healers" by James Randi, it's on page 204 in the chapter specficially on Robertson. (Randi wrote the book during Robertson's 1988 run for the Oval Office.)

Paul | November 11, 2005, 3:21pm | #

A little late, here, I know, but I just called on Panda Express for lunch, and... damn if I ain't a' eatin' lunch. My previous calls to God or Darwin weren't getting me lunch... so what am I to make of this?

Paul

taktix | November 11, 2005, 3:37pm | #

How'd yinz cheeseheads like dem' Steelers comin' inta tawn, beatin' on your Packers, n'at?

Wow, I think I just managed to codify Pittsburgh-ese into written language.

Being in Pa., I was a bit worried that the ID debate had a battlefield here. I mean, we're the onty state (commonwealth, technically) that doesn't sell beer in grocery stores.

I guess they are afraid of us buying booze with out bread, because that's a sure-fire recipe for un-godliness.

I was pleasantly surprised that Dover did what it did. With all the news that ID was getting, I was starting to think I was the only sane person left in Pittsburgh.

On Baja Fresh:

The ones in Pittsburgh are total crap. I have heard they are better elsewhere, but the one or two locations I went to have friggin flies in the dining room.

On a scale of 1 to horrible, I give it a horrible.

David | November 11, 2005, 3:38pm | #

My previous calls to God or Darwin weren't getting me lunch... so what am I to make of this?

The truth? Chinese restaurants are far more reliable than religion, and far faster than evolution.

waterskiing squirrel | November 11, 2005, 3:51pm | #

A little late, here, I know, but I just called on Panda Express for lunch, and... damn if I ain't a' eatin' lunch. My previous calls to God or Darwin weren't getting me lunch... so what am I to make of this?

Panda Express is the One True Savior!

smacky | November 11, 2005, 3:53pm | #

Wow, I think I just managed to codify Pittsburgh-ese into written language.

taktix,

Djeet?

Pittsburghese for: "Did you eat?"

:)

Akira MacKenzie | November 11, 2005, 3:57pm | #

How'd yinz cheeseheads like dem' Steelers comin' inta tawn, beatin' on your Packers, n'at?

To be honest, I hate sports. I could care less if the city of Green Bay broke off from the state and sank into Lake Michigan, dragging the Packers and their drooling, knuckle-dragging fans to a watery grave.

taktix | November 11, 2005, 3:59pm | #

Also, you are all bastards...

I'm stuck at work and forgot my check card at home, so no lunch for me.

Why don't you start trading recipes next?

zach | November 11, 2005, 4:09pm | #

Hick
Philadelphian for Pittsburgh resident.

Heh, sorry, had to get it out of my system. (No need for a comeback, all you need to do is say 'Eagles').

Being in Pa., I was a bit worried that the ID debate had a battlefield here. I mean, we're the onty state (commonwealth, technically) that doesn't sell beer in grocery stores.

I never have understood that. And why do we have to buy our liquor from the state? How exactly is this making us safer from the scourge of alcohol?

Isaac Bartram | November 11, 2005, 4:10pm | #

I mean, we're the onty state (commonwealth, technically) that doesn't sell beer in grocery stores.

Neither does Jersey, or has that changed? I haven't been back since '93.

zach | November 11, 2005, 4:22pm | #

Jersey has a beer shop sort of thing connected to each grocery store, I think.

Akira MacKenzie | November 11, 2005, 4:26pm | #

And why do we have to buy our liquor from the state?

Ask the Quakers.

zach | November 11, 2005, 4:34pm | #

I'm descended from Quakers, and I can't seem to drink enough.

No wonder they were so dead set against it, they were hard wired to be alcoholics.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 4:44pm | #

Remember when Pat Robertson claimed that Cuba was hiding nuclear missiles in Maine? He he he.

Jim Walsh | November 11, 2005, 4:47pm | #

I'm moving to Dover; it's the safest place in the universe.

mediageek | November 11, 2005, 4:49pm | #

Colorado Springs, home of Focus on the Family, has never been hit with a hurricane OR a tsunami. Earthquake activity is minor, and tornados usually stay safely east of town. QED.

You know, a few days ago I was struck by a tremendous irony:

Colorado Springs is home to both Focus on the Family, a right-wing evangelical group who get all atwitter about the "End Times."

It's also home to NORAD's Cheyenne Mountain installation, where lots of serious-faced government types monitor the world for someone getting ready to launch nukes at the good ol' U.S. of A.

mediageek | November 11, 2005, 4:50pm | #

er, strike the word "both" from my post.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 4:51pm | #

Believe it or not, back in the '80s, Pat and CBN had set aside funding and made plans to televise the Second Coming.

Yes, as I was a child part of the evangelical community at that time I can tell you folks were pretty much convinced he was on his way at any momemnt. Nasty storms and conflict in the middle east would send many scurrying to their Bibles to re-read Revelations (or rather, quote mine it). Even at my tender age I knew it was a load of crap. Growing up a Christian (or someone who said he was at least) teaches you at least one thing: people can believe some crazy, off the wall shit.

Brian Courts,

Though I'd say it looks like thoreau isn't taking Hak's deal to never mention code in exchange for Hak renouncing his flaming. :)

thoreau has a hard time swallowing his pride. :)

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 4:57pm | #

Brian Courts,

Sorry, I was working.

Besides, what else is there to say about this fucker? That he represents one of the many reasons why one shouldn't be a religionist?

zach | November 11, 2005, 5:03pm | #

Didn't realize your were a kindred escapee, Hak.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 5:14pm | #

zach,

Did you get to watch the anti-abortion, anti-evolution and anti-gay videos too? :)

zach | November 11, 2005, 5:18pm | #

No, but there were anti-Buddhism videos. Worse, they convinced me the Holy Spirit knocked me out.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 5:20pm | #

zach,

Did you ever go to any of these "end times" seminars? The ones they had held in overflowing medium-sized civics centers.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 5:21pm | #

zach,

He he he. When I started training in a Tibetan Buddhist center my Dad was apoplectic.

zach | November 11, 2005, 5:25pm | #

I don't think so, Hak, but occasionally my youth group would go to youth conferences similar to what you're describing ("East Coast Aflame!"). I was already beginning the recovery process at that point, and I would sit in the hotel room with the other "bad kids" and smoke cigarettes.

Brian Courts | November 11, 2005, 5:26pm | #

Hak,

Sorry, I was working.

That's no excuse.

Besides, what else is there to say about this fucker?

Yeah, this one didn't lend itself to any good arguments. I just can't see anyone (non-troll) on here finding any angle to defend this idiot, unlike religion in general. So I suppose your lack of religionist-baiting is excused... this time. :)

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 5:30pm | #

zach,

Heh. I was nver "bad" in that sort of way. I'd just go to adult Bible study and harrass the adults with many disturbing questions about the many inconsistencies in the Bible. For folks who believe in an inerrant Bible this is infuriating.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 5:32pm | #

Brian Courts,

How is OSU, BTW? Man, I miss reading on the quad.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 5:33pm | #

Brian Courts,

BTW, its too bad we live on opposite coasts as we'll likely never have a beer together at one of these Hit n' Run shindigs.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 5:47pm | #

Brian Courts,

Anyway, as to topic commentary, what you write is true of most topics here. Peoples' positions are fairly well staked out and its well known in advance where someone will fall on an issue (take how easy it is to predict joe's response to anything written here).

mk | November 11, 2005, 5:52pm | #

I'd just go to adult Bible study and harrass the adults

So THAT's where you picked up your skills!
I missed so much by growing up in a religious vacuum.

Jim Walsh | November 11, 2005, 5:57pm | #

"IF THERE IS A GOD, MAY HE STRIKE ME DEAD!"

"See...I'm still here..."

"Wait a minute; I've got a cramp in my leg..."

-George Carlin

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 6:02pm | #

mk,

Heh. Growing up in a fundamentalist Christian household, going to a fundamentalist Christian church, etc. when one is at heart an atheist can give one a thick skin.

Jim Walsh,

Some of Carlin's schtick is very funny.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 6:11pm | #

mk,

I believe growing up in a religious household for some people forces them to question and wrestle with (at an early age) a hell of a lot of questions concerning metaphysics, ontology, etc. that they might not otherwise deal with ever. I think this is why I was so fascinated by Moby Dick, etc. as a child. The funny thing is if my parents had any inkling what Moby Dick actually contained they would have never let me read it. I suppose they thought I just liked "classic" books and that was all good and well.

mediageek | November 11, 2005, 6:24pm | #

When I started training in a Tibetan Buddhist center my Dad was apoplectic.

You're not nearly laid back enough to be a Buddhist.

How is OSU, BTW?

heh. Not Brian, but OSU has one of the best competitive shooting programs in the country. Great indoor facility, too.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 6:46pm | #

mediageek,

Heh. Well, after a while the story they teach is as absurd as that found in Christianity. Learning meditation and the like is probably helpful, but the idea that life is some wheel we turn on until we reach nirvana, yet have no soul, is just absurd.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 6:47pm | #

mediageek,

And by OSU you mean Oregon State University, right?

jon H | November 11, 2005, 7:39pm | #

Hakluyt writes: "Learning meditation and the like is probably helpful, but the idea that life is some wheel we turn on until we reach nirvana, yet have no soul, is just absurd."

It would help if you had a different take on the concept - it's important to note that the repeated iterations is something to be *stopped*, by active effort. Endless cycles of rebirth is not a good thing. It's not like you're riding a cosmic merry-go-round through incarnations until you ripen. Buddhism is the "Jane! Stop This Crazy Thing!" religion.

That suggests to me that the repeated incarnations is essentially a metaphor for making the same damn mistakes (or kinds of mistakes) over and over again.

And the path to enlightenment is basically to pay attention to what you're thinking, doing, and saying, because when you do that, you're less likely to make the same damn mistakes again.

And hey, if you stop making dumb mistakes, that's a kind of Nirvana, is it not?

Personally, I figure there's no real need to take rebirth literally.

mk | November 11, 2005, 7:41pm | #

Hak,

I grew up in an religion-free household. Not atheist, just nothing. Not surprisingly, my older brother and sister both became fundamentalists (teen rebellion, I guess). Thankfully, my brother, who I love dearly, managed to claw his way out of that hole. My sister remains the embodiment of everything obnoxious about those people, right down to her husband, who is finishing up his "doctorate" at the ICR and her children who have regularly thrown out the gifts my mother would send them because they were "against god".

Myself, I hope my experiences with my kin haven't closed my mind entirely, but it is unlikely that I will ever be able to approach religious conservatives without some level of fear or hostility.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 7:54pm | #

mk,

Its best to approach the religious with mirth and mock them.

jon H.,

Which is something I could learn from a fortune cookie.

Endless cycles of rebirth is not a good thing.

Nor is it a realistic or rational claim either.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 8:01pm | #

BTW, you just knew that the RCC was going to weigh in on ID: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10007382/

And has anyone seen any more blatant example of circular reasoning than this?

“With the sacred Scripture, the Lord awakens the reason that sleeps and tells us: In the beginning, there was the creative word. In the beginning, the creative word — this word that created everything and created this intelligent project that is the cosmos — is also love.”

Its in the book, and the book will inspire you! How do you know that? Because its in the book! Catholics are always Biblical scripture fetishists when they find it convenient.

Hakluyt | November 11, 2005, 8:03pm | #

Brian Courts,

The Pope's statements should have been what the write-up was about.

Eric the .5b | November 11, 2005, 8:49pm | #

Read "The Faith Healers" by James Randi,

Aw, man, you're giving reading assignments, now? ;)

thoreau | November 11, 2005, 8:53pm | #

Myself, I hope my experiences with my kin haven't closed my mind entirely, but it is unlikely that I will ever be able to approach religious conservatives without some level of fear or hostility.

Ironically enough, my atheist father's efforts to stop us from going to church (including such punishments as turning off the heat in a Wisconsin winter) made me dislike religious conservatives. My mother said to me "See, this is what happens when people try to force other people to agree with them."

David T | November 11, 2005, 9:29pm | #

Who will get more tornadoes next year--Dover or Kansas?

crimethink | November 12, 2005, 12:02am | #

In the Bible, doesn't God agree to spare a large city for the sake of just 10 honest men? Surely there must be 10 honest people in Dover.

Well, he didn't spare the city; he got the "innocent" men (Lot and his family) out of the Sodom, then destroyed it. You can't trap God with technicalities.

Of course, considering Lot's behavior in the whole episode, one wonders why God went to the trouble. I mean, first he offers to let the Sodomites rape his daughters, then gets plastered and winds up impregnating them himself.

There is no more unruly collection of sex, violence, and family gossip than the Bible, and perhaps thats the way it should be...

mediageek | November 12, 2005, 1:19am | #

And by OSU you mean Oregon State University, right?

um...*cough*

Ohio State University.

Hakluyt | November 12, 2005, 2:00am | #

mediageek,

Well, Brian Courts it at Oregon State, not Ohio State (mouse over his name).

mediageek | November 12, 2005, 2:55am | #

Dunno.

Sounds like I need some L337 skillz to pull that off.

John | November 12, 2005, 11:50am | #

"God Is Dead." - Nietzche

"Nietzche is Dead." - God.

"Nietzche is God." - The Dead.

jdog | November 12, 2005, 12:41pm | #

The pope has just spoken about this so all is well.

It's not ID (Intelligent Design), it's IP (Intelligent Project) that motors us to salvation.

Hyperlink challenged jdog | November 12, 2005, 12:53pm | #

spoken

Carl | November 12, 2005, 12:59pm | #

"God is dead, and we killed him," isn't an unusual claim. It's the entire basis of Christianity. The point is that even while God comes back three days later, nevertheless, we humans tried our best at killing him. The point is we want to defeat the universe, but the universe forgive us for it.

dhex | November 12, 2005, 1:40pm | #

or we just need a better deicide agent.

what gets me about robertson is not that this jackass exists but that people give him money. he's right up there with j. k. knight or that john edwards douchearoni.

Brian Courts | November 12, 2005, 4:22pm | #

How is OSU, BTW? Man, I miss reading on the quad.

Hak, this time of year it's a bit rainy to read outside, unfortunately. Though the campus is very nice in the fall with all the leaves.

As for the H&R things, I'd love to make a trip back east to one if I had the time. Used to live in DC and wish I could have made it to that one. Maybe one of these days...

Too bad to hear mediageek was referring to Ohio State - I was momentarily excited to learn we had a indoor shooting range that I didn't know about. :)

Hakluyt | November 12, 2005, 4:30pm | #

Brian Courts,

You have a nice rock climbing wall (or least you did when I was there in the mid-1990s). :)

Yeah, I always loved those rare sunny days when the ground was dry and you could read on the Quad. I guess i should have bought a waterproof blanket to sit on.

joe | November 12, 2005, 10:09pm | #

Though I speak with the voice of the prophets, if I have not love, I am as a clanging bell.

Anyone seen any evidence of lover from Robertson? Love of money and love and power don't count.

Hakluyt | November 13, 2005, 12:29am | #

Pat Robertson is well within the bounds of Christian teaching.

For example, this is what Matthew has to say of cities (or houses) that don't "receive" word of Christ's disciples:

10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Compare this to Genesis:

19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

19:25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

________________________________________

Christianity as it exists in the New Testament is about as much a "religion of peace" as Islam is as it is written.

Hakluyt | November 13, 2005, 3:18am | #

Brian Courts,

BTW, Go Ducks! (Yeah, I know you are a Beaver, but I pull for both teams.) 9-1 and presumably heading to major bowl game somewhere. They'll be in the top ten I imagine following Auburn's victory over Georgia.

Brian Courts | November 13, 2005, 2:18pm | #

Hak,

BTW, Go Ducks!

Sigh. Yeah, I can't fault the sentiment; as a native Oregonian I usually do as well. Plus you could even argue it's better for the Beavs overall if the Pac-10 gets a second BCS bowl. But I would have had a lot easier time swallowing that if the Beavs hadn't lost to Stanford yesterday making even a low level bowl appearance dependent on beating the Ducks. Oh well, no matter what happens next week there will be something positive for me so I can't lose, right? :)

Hakluyt | November 13, 2005, 4:39pm | #

Brian Courts,

True enough. That's one of the things I've always liked about the OSU v. UO rivalry - people generally aren't dicks or assholes about it (unlike many other college football rivalries).

My wife and I are thinking about visiting Oregon next Summer so I can show her around where I went to school, the coast, visit College chums, etc. Maybe we can have a beer at Squirrels (assuming it still exists) or something.

Helene | November 13, 2005, 9:37pm | #

I tink Roberton has forgotten that God is love

Solitudinarian | November 14, 2005, 5:29am | #

They'll be in the top ten I imagine following Auburn's victory over Georgia.

You don't have to rub it in, Hak.

zach | November 14, 2005, 1:31pm | #

I grew up in an religion-free household. Not atheist, just nothing.

Depending on your definition of "atheist", no religion = atheist = lack of an active belief in God. However "atheist" can mean any number of other things, such as irrational certainty that there is no God. Which is part of why I try not to use the word that often to describe myself.