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The Other Self-Righteous Fanatics

Whatever else the Schiavo case might be, it's a circus of self-righteous certainty. And I'm not just referring to the save-Terri side -- the folks who just prompted Cathy to write this:

I don't think the religious right is our own homegrown Taliban, but maybe it's about as close to a Taliban as you can have in modern American society. These are people who really do want the state to enforce their vision of "what God wants."

If anything, the forces of dehydration are even more of a headache. At least the pro-lifers -- not all of whom hail from the religious right -- know that they're on a moral crusade. Much of the pro-death side pretends that they're neutral bystanders who don't want to "interfere" with a family's private business, even as they actively argue for one side of the family dispute. They say they want to respect the woman's wishes, even as they refer more readily to what they'd want for themselves in such a situation. And they warn gravely of a slippery slope to theocracy, without pausing to wonder whether there are any other slippery slopes to worry about.

It's a conservative Christian, Nancy Valko, who has best expressed why some of us non-conservative non-Christians can't be so blase about pulling Schiavo's feeding tube:

Most people assume that either they or their families will have the right to decide about medical treatment when they become seriously or critically ill. The biggest problem, people are told, is that they or their loved one will be tethered to a machine forever if they do not sign a "living will" or other health care directive. The "right to die" movement has convinced most people and medical personnel that the ability to refuse treatment is one of the most important aspects of medical care to prevent patients and families from needless suffering. Indeed, poll after poll shows that most people say they would rather die than be a "vegetable". And many people automatically assume that they would never want their lives prolonged if they had a terminal illness, were paralyzed or senile, etc. Most people assume that refusing treatment, like assisted suicide (the other goal of the "right to die" movement), means choice and control.

But a funny thing happened on the way to this supposed "right to die" nirvana.

Some families and patients did not "get with the program" and insisted that medical treatment be continued for themselves or their loved ones despite a "hopeless" prognosis and the recommendations of doctors and/or ethicists to stop treatment. Many doctors and ethicists were appalled that their expertise would be challenged and they theorized that such families or patients were unrealistic, "in denial" about the prognosis or were mired in dysfunctional family relationships. (In contrast, families who agree to withdraw treatment are almost always referred to as "loving" and their motives are spared such scrutiny.)

At a 1994 pediatric ethics conference I attended, one participant was even applauded when he suggested that parents who refused to withdraw treatment from their "vegetative" children were being "cruel" and even "abusive" by not "allowing" their children to die. In some cases, doctors and ethicists have even gone to court to force withdrawal of treatment over a family's objections. These ethicists and doctors were stunned when judges were often reluctant to overrule the families.

Yet over the years and unknown to most of the public, many ethicists have still refused to concede the choice of a right to live and instead have developed a new theory that doctors cannot be forced to provide "inappropriate" or "futile" care and treatment to patients deemed "hopeless". This theory has now evolved into "futile care" policies at hospitals in Houston, Des Moines, California and many other areas. Even Catholic hospitals are now becoming involved.

In the July-August 2000 issue of the Catholic Health Association's magazine Health Progress3, Catherine M. Mikus and Reverend Peter Clark -- a lawyer and an ethicist -- argue that it is "time for a formalized medical futility policy" in Catholic hospitals. Like many such articles in secular ethics journals, the authors refrain from being too specific about what conditions and which patients would be subject to such a policy. The authors concede that even the American Medical Association says that medical futility is a concept that "cannot be meaningfully defined" and is a "subjective judgment" on which there is no widespread agreement.

Mikus and Clark make it clear that they are not talking about treatments that are "harmful, ineffective, or impossible", the traditional concept of medical futility that, of course, is not ethically obligatory. For example, no doctor would honor a family's request for a kidney transplant for a person who is imminently dying. Instead, the authors argue for a new definition of futility to overrule patients and/or families on a case-by-case basis based on the doctor's and/or ethicist's determination of the "patient's best interest". Ironically, the "right to die" movement was founded on the premise that patients and/or families are the best judges of when it is time to die. Now, however, we are being told that doctors and/or ethicists are really the best judges of when we should die.

Scare-mongering? Maybe. Maybe not. As threatening scenarios go, it looks a lot more plausible than any American Taliban nightmare.

For a libertarian, the crux of the Terri Schiavo case is the woman's own preferences; and of course, her preferences are a matter of dispute. That's why, of all the plug-pulling cases in the country, it's this one that's become so polarizing: Each side can project its own wishes onto a woman who can't speak for herself.

Reasonable people reading the evidence can differ as to what Schiavo would have preferred, but one thing they can't do is declare there's no question about what she wanted 16 years ago. In the last few weeks, alas, reasonable people have sometimes been scarce.

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Comments to "The Other Self-Righteous Fanatics":

Dynamist | March 29, 2005, 1:12pm | #

Yes!

The question for me is not what ultimately happens to this one citizen. I'm interested in better understanding and defining the role of the state.

phocion | March 29, 2005, 1:19pm | #

It's true that we can't always know the wishes of an individual. And other than the people who testified, no one knows if it's true that Terri made her wishes known.

But that's why we have legal guardians, to make the decisions for those incapable to make them on their own.

joe | March 29, 2005, 1:21pm | #

Yup, just projecting my own wished onto the woman.

It's not like there's been any sort of repeatedly-reviewed process that found her husband's, and best friend's, testimony far more credible than that of her mother. Or an understanding that husbands are more intimate with their wives than parents are with their adult children, and in a better position to know their wishes.

Who's projecting?

plunge | March 29, 2005, 1:26pm | #

"Reasonable people reading the evidence can differ as to what Schiavo would have preferred, but one thing they can't do is declare there's no question about what she wanted 16 years ago. In the last few weeks, alas, reasonable people have sometimes been scarce."

Sometimes the "there's two sides to every story!" line is basically a cover for one side, trying to use the specter of balance to make up for a huge evidential deficit of one side. It's true in the creationism debate, and it's true here.

No court can find anything with absolute certainty, but no one who's actually read the court transcripts (I know, primary research instead of letting a pundit do the thinking! arg!) could seriously argue that the case for Terri's wishes not to be maintained was weak. Her best friend confirmed it. And her parents side, far from really offerring any alternative account the court could have weighed credibly against, testified under oath that they would not remove care EVEN if Terri had wanted it. They described at great length the brutual proceedures they were willing to take to keep her body alive indefinately.

The role of the state here was limited to trying to figure out matters of fact. No one has offerred any better alternative. Should the situation have been better resolved by pistols at dawn? Of course not. But lacking any seroius argument on that front, activists are now pushing for laws that restrict or define matters of fact prejudicially for this or that powerful figure.

As a libertarian, courts are the least of the evils of government. At least in a court, people are allowed present evidence, make a case, make arguments of law. Politicians need not entertain anything other than money or the mob.

The Wine Commonsewer | March 29, 2005, 1:31pm | #

I, surprisingly enough, have nothing to say except:

Well done. Thank you Jesse.

A Question | March 29, 2005, 1:33pm | #

What is the libertarian case if a family refuses to pull the feeding tube from a patient in a persistent vegetative state but soon after runs out of money for the treatment?

Is the state morally obligated to pay to continue the treatment?

Randolph Carter | March 29, 2005, 1:33pm | #

"They described at great length the brutual proceedures they were willing to take to keep her body alive indefinately."

I wonder if anyone else finds this sentence ironic or twisted in any way...

Lee | March 29, 2005, 1:33pm | #

Reqarding the actual post:

This says nothing on who is paying the medical bills. If it is fully paid for by the familiy/patient, then it is obviously up to them. If it is not fully paid for by the individuals, then obviously others will have a voice in the decision.

Skeptikos | March 29, 2005, 1:34pm | #

I'm a little confused. I think the "futile care laws" are already on the books in Texas. I thought the far right are the ones presenting these issues. On the one hand (like in Texas) they argue for stricter "futile care restrictions" that let them deny treatment, I'm guessing to show that they are fiscaly responsible. But then they argue against them, as in the Fla case.

I do worry about both sides in this, but I thought it was primarily the Republican party that was presenting both arguements, when and where based on what helps them most at that moment.

Henry | March 29, 2005, 1:34pm | #

Jesse, "blase" is a hard concept to sell after 16 years.

Obviously the whole issue is messy and disturbing--it's prolonged total mental incapacity and death we are talking about here. But unless we going to make the "slippery slope" our almighty totem here, there has to be a point where enough can be determined to enough. This case has been litigated--and now legislated--to fucking death (ahem).

You might be able to find a hard case to raise tough questions, but this one is not it, IMO. And I have my money where my mouth is on this one--a Florida Living Will that specifies exactly the same treatment I advocate here (which, hopefully, might expedite things by a decade and a half or so over the facts of this case).

The preciousness of life is a given for almost all of us here I presume, but making a fetish out of it is perverse at a certain point (and 16 years qualifies in my book). We routinely make decisions as a society that costs thousands, sometimes millions, of lives (as the annoying but occasionally indisputable Nick Kristof has demonstrated, does anybody REALLY believe we couldn't eliminate most of the millions of deaths from malaria if we cared to?)

All this case demonstrates is that--miracle of miracles, for those looking for one--Joe Stalin was right about something: A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic. That was the excuse of a mass murderer when uttered by Uncle Joe, but, worse for us, it is the sad reality of our society every day.

SR | March 29, 2005, 1:36pm | #

The Schiavo case is now officially a circus - Jesse Jackson has gotten on board the pro-tube train: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7293186/

Best line from the article:

"University of South Florida political science professor Susan MacManus said Jackson's appearance shows that the life-and-death issues surrounding their daughter resonate beyond white, Christian conservatives."

Dynamist | March 29, 2005, 1:36pm | #

The law was followed. The law sucks because it failed to protect life above all other rights. The law required the judgement of one person to a sub-maximal standard of proof in order to use state power to produce a mortal result. The multiple reviews were over found facts, not the body of testimony.

I ask the state be consistent in requirements for acting to promote death: jury of 12, to beyond a reasonable doubt; or a majority of both houses.

Dynamist | March 29, 2005, 1:38pm | #

Or, preferably, I ask the state to abolish itself.

Jesse Walker | March 29, 2005, 1:39pm | #

Who's projecting?

Not me, Joe. I don't know what her wishes are. I know what I think the presumption should be when a patient's wishes are unclear, but that's a separate question. I'm happy to hear you have such certainty, though.

Henry: I'm glad you've worked out what you want for yourself. That doesn't mean that everyone else will want the same thing.

Plunge: Creationism? Yes, this is just like the debate over creationism. Yup.

All: I have said what I have said; I have not said what I haven't said. Don't assume my position on, say, getting Congress involved from what I've written here.

madpad | March 29, 2005, 1:40pm | #

At least the pro-lifers...know that they're on a moral crusade...(the) pro-death side pretends that they're neutral bystanders who don't want to "interfere" with a family's private business, even as they actively argue for one side of the family dispute...

So the "pro-deathers" DON'T know they're on a moral crusade by wanting the government to stay out of private affairs because this could just as easily be them.

Right.

And they warn gravely of a slippery slope to theocracy...

Seems the arguments from the pro-life side have plenty of slippery slopes when they start talking about how allowing terry to die will make it open season on anyone who's become an inconvenience or an invalid.

trainwreck | March 29, 2005, 1:41pm | #

Jesse has gone bonkers here. The Forces of Dehydration? The "pro-Death" side?

Look, bottom line, the decision when to pull the plug, or deny treatment,

will be made by book keepers and accountants, not

by doctors and ethicists. Fool.

Techie | March 29, 2005, 1:41pm | #

Having worked with close to a hundred doctors in the past twenty years in medical research and insurance administration all I can say is:

Most doctors are complete lunatics and extremists! Do we want them to decide when it's time for you to die?

Henry | March 29, 2005, 1:41pm | #

Jesse: thanks for not responding to the vast portion of my post.

joe | March 29, 2005, 1:46pm | #

The only thing I'm certain of, Mr. Walker, is that it is none of your, Tom Delay's, Randall Terry's, or BillyRay's goddamn business.

"I know what I think the presumption should be when a patient's wishes are unclear..." That you should go arena shopping when each successive route declares your case to be unsupportable?

plunge | March 29, 2005, 1:51pm | #

"I wonder if anyone else finds this sentence ironic or twisted in any way..."

Okay: you explain how sawing the arms and legs off someone's body to keep alive a pretty much brain dead individual is anything other than grostesquely insane.

joe | March 29, 2005, 1:53pm | #

"At least the pro-lifers...know that they're on a moral crusade."

This Force of Dehydration sez, DAMN STRAIGHT I'M ON A MORAL CRUSADE!

Keep the politicians the hell away from these decisions. Respect the concept of Next of Kin. Recognize that the spouse she chose to share her life with is closer kin than the parents she chose to leave. Recognize the dignity and quality of life and privacy are legitimate ethical imperitives, and stop fetishizing metabolic processes as the definition of personhood.

Damn right this is a moral crusade.

Lee | March 29, 2005, 1:54pm | #

Old news?
The parents are selling the list of their supporters to the direct marketing firm.

http://tinyurl.com/6wvlt

Sam Johnson | March 29, 2005, 1:56pm | #

Why not keep these folks alive if their familes wish, but take blood from them each month, and maybe transplant hair or unused organs to help defer the cost of keeping them alive? That way at least they're helping society as well as burdening it.

Jesse Walker | March 29, 2005, 1:56pm | #

Henry: What's there to respond to? You made a number of points. Some of them I agree with. Most of them weren't arguments against what I said, or at least they didn't seem like it to me. I didn't feel the need to reply.

Joe, by contrast, likes to respond to things no one has said. I wrote, "Don't assume my position on, say, getting Congress involved from what I've written here." He replied by suggesting I think "you should go arena shopping when each successive route declares your case to be unsupportable."

He also threw in a gratuitous reference to Tom DeLay and Randall Terry. Not sure why. I guess he wants to restoke his moral certainty by reminding himself what icky people are on the other side.

plunge | March 29, 2005, 1:58pm | #

"Plunge: Creationism? Yes, this is just like the debate over creationism. Yup."

I explained exactly how it was like it. Simply saying "yeah, it's exactly like it!" is a slimy way to avoid the comparison. I didn't say it was exactly like it. For reference sake, the point of the comparison is that presenting an issue like there are two legitimate sides, both with some facts on their side, is often a dishonest appraisal of the situation.

plunge | March 29, 2005, 2:03pm | #

"The law was followed. The law sucks because it failed to protect life above all other rights. The law required the judgement of one person to a sub-maximal standard of proof in order to use state power to produce a mortal result. The multiple reviews were over found facts, not the body of testimony. I ask the state be consistent in requirements for acting to promote death: jury of 12, to beyond a reasonable doubt; or a majority of both houses."

And what could be more extreme than that: trying to paint a case about ones personal liberty as a punishment. Refusing medical care = state imposed death penalty!

Yes, this case was weird because a court had to ultimately establish facts. But no, just because it didn't find what your ESP told you the outcome should be ("err on the side of life = there is no possible evidence that could convince me, since anyone can always raise some insane objection at any time"), that doesn't mean that the ruling was in error.

joe | March 29, 2005, 2:03pm | #

"He also threw in a gratuitous reference to Tom DeLay and Randall Terry. Not sure why. I guess he wants to restoke his moral certainty by reminding himself what icky people are on the other side."

The ickyness of the people on the side of state second guessing is the strongest argument against their case that I can imagine - that's what makes it relevant to bring them up.

You don't have any problem with this useful practice when you link to stories about cops or UN officials taking bribes - why is the ickyness of government officials suddenly out of bounds?

Henry | March 29, 2005, 2:06pm | #

Jesse, let me boil it down for you (usually not a problem in your case, so I didn't anticipate the need to do so here):

When the fuck is enough enough in this case? As long as there is one existing being related to Ms. Schiavo who says otherwise? Do they have to be related at all?

There has been a massive OVERDOSE of legal process here to make sure no "blase" actions were taken, if I can borrow your terminology. Other than kowtowing to an overbearing fetish for "life at any cost" (although we otherwise regularly disregard it on a massive scale routinely) coupled with a "slippery slope" paranoia extraordinaire, what more do you want here? What you make you happy, or at least convince you we are not being "blase"?

Henry | March 29, 2005, 2:08pm | #

And, again, forgive my typos--I grew up pre-computer era, when only women were believed to possibly need the ability to type. And it shows.

Dynamist | March 29, 2005, 2:16pm | #

Jesse: Clearly, you said what people heard, not what you said or did not say.

plunge: I didn't say what you heard Jesse not saying. The law was followed, even though I think the "court", which is one person, is held to a shabby standard. I cannot assess which outcome is more appropriately "punishment". Why are governments instituted among men? To preserve common law marriage rights?

dhex | March 29, 2005, 2:17pm | #

how about this: fear is clouding the issue for many sides.

those with disabilities see this as a step towards their eradication by a culture which does not value them.

anti-abortion folks see this as yet another step forward in the "silent holocaust" and the loss of a publically available wedge issue.

those on the pro-death side - like myself - are afraid of the implications of the legislature overriding the work of our spouses. and of a religiously-mandated living death.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 2:17pm | #

Jesse Walker,

Your bias is showing. :)

Note that the main defenders of the Schindlers here have been folks, you know, BillyRay. Also note that on a number of ocassions you have demonstrated absolute ignorance as to the facts of the case. Remember when you stupidly claimed that the only witness who saw her speak of her wish to die was Michael Schiavo? Such claims are a good proxy by which to judge the merits of a poster's claims.

plunge,

From the get go Walker has been arguing that its no big deal if she were simply maintained by her parents; this is a morally obtuse position of course.

The Pope stated in 2004 that anyone who is in a PVS has a moral duty to stay on the tube; as far as I can tell, this is just the Pope catching up with the Schindler's sick agenda.

Honestly, in light of the specious claims of the Schindler's attorney, I am surprised court ordered sanctions haven't been brought against him.

Henry,

The preciousness of life is a given for almost all of us here I presume...

Your examples undermine the notion that "life is precious."

As to the non-response issue, don't expect intellectual honesty from Walker.

madpad,

Its back to the "your position is amoral if it doesn't agree with mine" line of argument.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 2:23pm | #

I ask the state be consistent in requirements for acting to promote death: jury of 12, to beyond a reasonable doubt; or a majority of both houses.

No official number of jurors is required to reach a death penalty claim. As to the "majority of both houses" claim, clearly you don't get out our individualized judicial system works.

dhex,

That is definately where this is headed. Catholic and Protestant groups appear to be getting to the point where anything which keeps you breathing is morally required.

Ball of Confusion | March 29, 2005, 2:25pm | #

I know what I think the presumption should be when a patient's wishes are unclear

Like joe, I don't want there to be any "presumption" here. Instead, I want for the person's legal guardian / next of kin to be able to make all the decisions. I think all the furor about lack of clarity regarding what Mrs. Schiavo's would have wanted has been an unfortunate red herring. The lack of clarity should just be the signal that decision-making is transferred to the legal guardian. I don't buy that this position is some kind of slippery slope. Legal guardian doesn't mean "doctor" in the same way it doesn't mean "congressman".

Bonar Law | March 29, 2005, 2:28pm | #

"Respect the concept of Next of Kin. Recognize that the spouse [Terri Schiavo] chose to share her life with is closer kin than the parents she chose to leave."

Since Michael "chose to leave" his wife for a new woman, then this argument loses some of its force.

I would have thought that the issue of marital "closeness" between Terri and Michael would not exactly be something the anti-feeding side would wish to bring up. In any event, the Florida courts are claiming to be carrying out Terri's wishes, not Michael's.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 2:28pm | #

Ball of Confusion,

Note that Dynamist in an earlier thread argued that the state has no duty to maintain life support; given that in the vast majority of cases where an individual is in a PVS the state is taking care of them, Dynamist's "presumption" means little practically speaking.

Henry | March 29, 2005, 2:29pm | #

Gary,

Preciousness does not equate to "beyond all value".

Most people--at least those non-suicidal--value their lives dearly, and those of their loved ones (indeed such may the surest indicia of "love"). What I am trying to extract here is there ever a point in this freaking case when we can say that sense of preciousness has been served?

This is not directed at Jesse (although perhaps it applies--who knows but him, if even then), but dhex is on to something bring up "fear"; the existensital terror of death (specifically one's own death) can produce some pretty strange psychological effects. No duh, huh? Hawkers of religion since the beginning of time have known this, and exploited to their advantage. But it can also produce perversity in thought where you least expect it. I think a certain squeamishment over death--or, conversely, over the possibility of a prolonged vegetative existence, a feeling of "buried alive"--is the subtext here.

Or, I can be full of shit, and everybody is being perfectly rational--who's to say?

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 2:30pm | #

Bonar Law,

Michael Schiavo started the proceedings prior to hooking up with his girlfriend. This is another fact which has been ignored by the press.

Angela | March 29, 2005, 2:31pm | #

I am delighted by liberals who have suddenly discovered familial privacy, self ownership and autonomy. Perhaps they will apply these principles to home schooling, prostitution, drug use, polygamy, eminent domain and confiscatory taxation.

Jesse Walker | March 29, 2005, 2:32pm | #

Plunge: I understood what you were saying. My reply, which I'll say directly this time rather than relying on sarcasm, is that the evidence is not nearly as slanted in this case as it is in the creationism debate.

Joe: The ickiness of government officials -- by the way, only one of the four people in your list is a government official, but I'll set that aside -- is out of bounds when it's irrelevant. You wrote, "The only thing I'm certain of, Mr. Walker, is that it is none of your, Tom Delay's, Randall Terry's, or BillyRay's goddamn business." I'm not sure why I'm on that list, or why you're not.

Gary: Since you're big on intellectual honesty, please go back to the thread where I allegedly "stupidly claimed that the only witness who saw her speak of her wish to die was Michael Schiavo." In fact, my exact words were "Far as I can tell, there's no strong evidence of what her wishes were." Nothing in there about who the purported witnesses were.

Henry: I didn't say you were being blase. But there are people on your side who are very blase.

When is enough enough? I don't know. It's not my decision to make. In my ideal world, either (a) Shiavo would have left direct testimony as to her preferences, such as a living will, or (b) her husband, upon giving up on her chances to recover, would have simply divorced her and let her parents carry the burden. (Actually, in my ideal world, she'd still be healthy today. Also, ice cream would be good for you. La di da.)

When is enough enough? It's gonna come at different times for different people. But as long as her parents are willing to maintain her care -- and as long as there's reasonable doubt as to her own preferences -- I don't think we've reached that time yet.

Randolph Carter | March 29, 2005, 2:33pm | #

Plunge,
I was kidding around, so point taken. I guess I'm conflicted over the seemingly contradictory claims that a) it's torture and cruelty to keep this woman alive in her current state and b) it's not bad to kill her (or allow her to die, whichever semantic bias you prefer) because she won't know what's going on. How can anything, either pulling the tube or keeping her alive, be torture if she doesn't have a brain to comprehend what's going on?
We're all going to die some day anyways, so it seems that Terry Schaivo is in a weird limbo where her husband (who has a legal right to do so) is choosing whether she will die now or after thirty more years of non-consciousness. My problem is, why not wait it out if someone else is willing to foot the bill? If you're an athiest, it's just a matter of allowing some broken machinery to stay in the shop with hope of a fix down the road. If you believe in an afterlife, she's going to get there either way.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 2:34pm | #

Henry,

Whether "life is precious" depends on the person. I don't believe its beyond all value certainly, and whether it is "precious" depends on the nature of the "life" itself.

plunge | March 29, 2005, 2:35pm | #

"The law was followed, even though I think the "court", which is one person, is held to a shabby standard."

"Clear and convincing" and "err on the side of life" is a pretty HIGH standard of evidence.

"I cannot assess which outcome is more appropriately "punishment"."

The reason you might be having that problem is that this was a civil case, in which no punishments were leveled. Trying to pretend that it was a death penalty case is morally obtuse.

"Why are governments instituted among men? To preserve common law marriage rights?"

I don't know what the heck this has to do with anything. Florida doesn't even have a common law marriage provision.

Ball of Confusion | March 29, 2005, 2:39pm | #

Bonar Law,
I would have thought that the issue of marital "closeness" between Terri and Michael would not exactly be something the anti-feeding side would wish to bring up.

Why not? I would have been perfectly OK with the main thrust of the legal action here being a determination of whether Michael was still legally entitled to be Terri's guardian. If Terri's parents had secured her guardianship in court, then I'd be equally OK with them calling the shots. I guess that's the difference between "anti-feeding" and "anti-government-making-the-decision".

In any event, the Florida courts are claiming to be carrying out Terri's wishes, not Michael's.

That is my understanding as well, and I already called it an unfortunate red herring (from my point of view).

Bonar Law | March 29, 2005, 2:41pm | #

"Michael Schiavo started the proceedings prior to hooking up with his girlfriend. This is another fact which has been ignored by the press."

My point is this: At no time did any court say, "OK, Michael, you have Terri's best interests at heart, you make the decision about feeding her." The trial judge made his own decision as to what Terri's wishes would have been and ruled based on that, not based on Michael being "closer" to Terri than her parents.

If this case were to be decided on joe's proposed criterion - leaving the decision up to whoever is "closer" to Terri - then I should think the decision would be for her parents, not her husband. Whatever may have been the situation at an earlier time, today we can say that Michael has "moved on with his life." More power to him, but now that Michael has moved on, his supporters can't now claim he's "closer" to Terri than her parents.

plunge | March 29, 2005, 2:44pm | #

"My reply, which I'll say directly this time rather than relying on sarcasm, is that the evidence is not nearly as slanted in this case as it is in the creationism debate."

It certainly is not as slanted, but again, that's avoiding the thrust of the comparison. The comparison is about how the "two sides to every story" trope is a cheap way to conceal or avoid dealing with some pretty major deficits of fact and argument on one side.

"But as long as her parents are willing to maintain her care -- and as long as there's reasonable doubt as to her own preferences -- I don't think we've reached that time yet."

Acting in accordance with what people wish matters. If people who expect that their loved ones will respect their wishes not to have their bodies be played with as puppets for all eternity see that as soon as they cannot speak, their wishes are toast... I don't see how that's a liberatarian position in the least. People's bodies become the property of whomever will derive the most enjoyment out of playing with them?

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 2:44pm | #

Jesse Walker,

I'd think we'd all be big on intellectual honesty.

In response to joe's equally ignorant claim:

Joe: The only evidence is her husband's testimony. That testimony was contradicted by her parents.

Walker: In other words, there is no strong evidence of what her wishes were.

In other words, you are both ignorant of the facts of this case and you adopted joe's statements out of your ignorance. Maybe you ought to read through the entirety of your statements before sticking your foot in your mouth, you fucking fool.

Here are my responses:

Gary: Do read the guardian ad litem report.

Gary: When you do, you'll find that Mrs. Schiavo made statements to a friend and to her brother-in-law. Boy you sure did swallow the pro-tube crowd's argument hook, line and sinker.

plunge | March 29, 2005, 2:45pm | #

"Whatever may have been the situation at an earlier time, today we can say that Michael has "moved on with his life." More power to him, but now that Michael has moved on, his supporters can't now claim he's "closer" to Terri than her parents."

That's irrelevant. What's relevant about his testimony is that he WAS closer during the time when her wishes would have been most important.

Todd Fletcher | March 29, 2005, 2:45pm | #

Jesse, did it ever occur to you that her husband is sincerely trying to honor her wishes? And that he has the right, as next of kin, to do so? Why would her parent's wishes override what he apparently knew to be her wishes?

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 2:48pm | #

Walker fisked by his own link. Sweet! He he he. :)

Xrlq | March 29, 2005, 2:49pm | #

Excellent post. My view is simple: the evidence is neither clear nor convincing that (1) Terri Schiavo wanted to die if incapacitated, or that (2) her brain was so badly damaged as to preclude any consciousness whatsoever. Both may in fact be true, though I tend to think #1 is not. Even if I did, I fail to see how anyone can be certain enough of both propositions to justify killing a patient whose parents are ready, willing and able to care for her for life.

By analogy, I support the death penalty for first degree murderers convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. I do not support the death penalty for alleged first degree murderers whose guilt one lone judge found to be "clear and convincing." That such judgment was later upheld by a string of appellate courts on the basis that his conclusions were not clearly erroneous offers little comfort. Michael Schiavo's theories - also known as Judge Greer's "facts" - are not clearly erroneous. The trouble is, it's not all that clear that they're right, either.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 2:50pm | #

Todd Fletcher,

Walker has written all along that he doesn't why leaving her in her parents' care is such a big deal. The problem is that this is a big deal.

Henry | March 29, 2005, 2:51pm | #

"(b) her husband, upon giving up on her chances to recover, would have simply divorced her and let her parents carry the burden."

Well, other than the fact that this result would have eliminated this pseudo-crisis from our national agenda, I can't find much to recommend for this alternative. "Here, do what you want with this sack of crap--I'm done."

"When is enough enough? It's gonna come at different times for different people. But as long as her parents are willing to maintain her care -- and as long as there's reasonable doubt as to her own preferences -- I don't think we've reached that time yet."

I notice your construction address the willingness of the parents--fair enough. Is that a limitation? Would siblings do? Cousins? Strangers? The court has resolved this issue, obviously, and you are a critic--so I think you have responsibility to flesh this out.

Also, is just "willing" enough? How about able, finacially? Or is this another cost to be socialized? If so, why should we choose the cost of subsidizing "PVS" life over the cost of stopping all those malaria deaths (or hunger, or whatever) of non-PVS life?

To be fair, these last two paragraphs appear to go beyond the facts of this case (where we just disagree, I guess), but I'm trying to see if there is any point where there can be common ground.

I had to bring in "common ground" in honor of the OTHER Jesse.

thoreau | March 29, 2005, 2:53pm | #

Somebody needs to relax. Maybe relieve some stress by taking a run around Little Round Top and fantasizing about being in the 20th Maine... ;)

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 2:57pm | #

Xrlq,

My view is simple: the evidence is neither clear nor convincing that (1) Terri Schiavo wanted to die if incapacitated, or that (2) her brain was so badly damaged as to preclude any consciousness whatsoever. Both may in fact be true, though I tend to think #1 is not. Even if I did, I fail to see how anyone can be certain enough of both propositions to justify killing a patient whose parents are ready, willing and able to care for her for life.

Could you re-write this statement; its not particularly clear what you mean to say.

By analogy, I support the death penalty for first degree murderers convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you knew anything about DP you would know that many, many juries convict even where a reasonable doubt exists. Why? Because their gut feeling is that the person is guilty, and they've had that gut feeling since the charge was read to them in voir dire!

I do not support the death penalty for alleged first degree murderers whose guilt one lone judge found to be "clear and convincing."

If you support the current system you do.

Michael Schiavo's theories - also known as Judge Greer's "facts" - are not clearly erroneous.

Again with the notion that Michael Schiavo was the only witness to testify as to her wish to do die (that's a fair conclusion I think)!

Eddie Tor | March 29, 2005, 3:02pm | #

Angela -

Liberals? You know this is Reason, right?

Jesse Walker | March 29, 2005, 3:02pm | #

Jesse, did it ever occur to you that her husband is sincerely trying to honor her wishes?

Of course it has. My post is an argument for uncertainty, and against moral fanatics like Randall Terry and Gary Gunnels. My position, to the extent that I have one, is one designed to minimize the consequences of mistakes.

Maybe you ought to read through the entirety of your statements before sticking your foot in your mouth, you fucking fool.

Gary, ordinarily I wouldn't dignify this sort of shit, but since you're challenging my honesty I'll point out the obvious. If you read the statements in context, here's what you get:

Jesse: "Far as I can tell, there's no strong evidence of what her wishes were."

Joe: Makes a point that he believes is a counterargument.

Jesse: Repeats original comment, only with "In other words" in the place of "Far as I can tell." The obvious meaning is that Joe's statement isn't an counterargument at all.

Now, did I know how many alleged witnesses there were? Actually, I didn't. And while I'm more up to speed on the case now, I don't pretend to have a thorough knowledge of it. But I did not claim that Michael Schiavo was the only witness. Joe did. I let the claim pass in silence.

Jesse Walker | March 29, 2005, 3:03pm | #

Henry: Yes, I think if someone else wanted to take custody of the body, that's fine. Assuming we aren't talking about some creepy necrophiliac...

And no, I don't think the costs should be socialized.

Bonar Law | March 29, 2005, 3:03pm | #

"That's irrelevant. What's relevant about his testimony is that he WAS closer during the time when her wishes would have been most important."

Are we discussing the credibility of Michael as a witness to Terri's wishes, or about Michael's qualifications (on grounds of closeness) to make decisions on Terri's behalf?

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 3:04pm | #

thoreau,

Stress? Fisking Walker is fun. :)

Henry,

I notice your construction address the willingness of the parents--fair enough. Is that a limitation? Would siblings do? Cousins? Strangers? The court has resolved this issue, obviously, and you are a critic--so I think you have responsibility to flesh this out.

Merely because someone wants to support you doesn't end the question. If she didn't want to be supported, as Michael Schiavo and two other witnesses have stated, then their efforts to support her are morally repugnant and, in a word, are selfish. They certainly aren't taking in mind the desires of the individual.

Might as well be Jean Bart | March 29, 2005, 3:04pm | #

Now, did I know how many alleged witnesses there were? Actually, I didn't. And while I'm more up to speed on the case now, I don't pretend to have a thorough knowledge of it. But I did not claim that Michael Schiavo was the only witness. Joe did. I let the claim pass in silence.

*Chuckle* You are a liar and an idiot and I have no use for you.

dhex | March 29, 2005, 3:06pm | #

another aspect of the fear issue is one of duty. each side (husband and parents) feel they are doing right by the woman. neither is in a position to back down.

Todd Fletcher | March 29, 2005, 3:08pm | #

"Jesse, did it ever occur to you that her husband is sincerely trying to honor her wishes?

Of course it has. My post is an argument for uncertainty, and against moral fanatics like Randall Terry and Gary Gunnels. My position, to the extent that I have one, is one designed to minimize the consequences of mistakes."

I don't see an answer to the question here.

Jesse Walker | March 29, 2005, 3:08pm | #

Funny, thoreau, funny.

Jesse Walker | March 29, 2005, 3:10pm | #

Todd: The answer was "Of course it has." I think it completely possible that the husband is trying to honor her wishes. I also think it possible that he isn't.

OK?

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 3:12pm | #

Jesse Walker,

Now, did I know how many alleged witnesses there were? Actually, I didn't. And while I'm more up to speed on the case now, I don't pretend to have a thorough knowledge of it. But I did not claim that Michael Schiavo was the only witness. Joe did. I let the claim pass in silence.

How very Clintonesque of you. :) You not only did not try to rebut it, you used it as a means to support your claim that there was no "strong evidence" regarding her wishes. You clearly adopted joe's claim. End of story.

As to you being up to speed, I doubt that is the case.

Jessie Walker's Older and Dumber Brother | March 29, 2005, 3:12pm | #

Gary:

If you weren't a bipolar goon whose only experinece with other humans is through your computer I would come over there and kick your ass.

Henry | March 29, 2005, 3:13pm | #

OK, Jesse, I appreciate your answers. Sorry it took a while. Now I know where you are coming from (which makes it clearer that our disagreement is more fundamental, but that's life, as we non-PVSers sometimes say).

Gary, I am presuming that Jesse just rejects the court's conclusion on your point (i.e. her intent). I don't.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 3:16pm | #

Jesse Walker,

What, pray reveal, makes me a "moral fanatic"?

Todd Fletcher,

Don't expect an answer.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 3:18pm | #

Jesse Walker's Older and Dumber Brother,

You mean the Walker's breed them dumber than Jesse? Those folks are sick.

Jesse Walker | March 29, 2005, 3:19pm | #

I've lost too much work time to this thread already, but I'll make one last comment for now.

Gary, when I responded to Joe, I had no idea whether his claim was true or false. I did not claim that it was true, and I did not claim that it was false. I claimed that it did not rebut what I had written, and that it in fact reinforced it.

What I did know at the time is that we don't have any direct testimony from Terri Schiavo as to what her wishes were. That's as true now as it was then, and it's what drives my perspective on this issue.

As for what makes you a moral fanatic -- well, that's what the post at the beginning of this thread is about. Self-righteous certainty isn't pretty, even in a commenter whose contributions I usually enjoy.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 3:21pm | #

Henry,

Jesse is ignorant of the case itself; that's why his statements about what the court has or has not done aren't anymore insightful than what BillyRay might write. He should read the GAL report (from 2003) before he comments further.

TWC | March 29, 2005, 3:21pm | #

It don't get much media play but Jesse Jackson is a Pro-Lifer, which goes a long way toward explaining him showing up at Terri's hospice. I'm not making that up either.

Also LOL at Jesse's older and somewhat dumber brother............funny stuff, indeed.

dhex | March 29, 2005, 3:28pm | #

stop being such a fuck, gary.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 3:29pm | #

Jesse Walker,

Gary, when I responded to Joe, I had no idea whether his claim was true or false. I did not claim that it was true, and I did not claim that it was false. I claimed that it did not rebut what I had written, and that it in fact reinforced it.

And by claiming such you adopted it as true. In a contract you'd be more than likely bound by those terms. Perhaps I have been thinking in legalistic terms too long.

Self-righteous certainty isn't pretty, even in a commenter whose contributions I usually enjoy.

Hey, I have strong opinions, and unlike BillyRay, I am more than willing to back them up with hard evidence. Of course if that makes me a fanatic, then it makes me a fanatic against a lot of shit, like collectivism and statism.

As to what one enjoys, well, I generally enjoy your comments as well. But here, on this matter, we part company.

Todd Fletcher | March 29, 2005, 3:30pm | #

Thankfully some of Reason's writers can think and express themselves clearly.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 3:34pm | #

dhex,

Grow a cerebral cortex. As to fucking, well, I like to do that. :)

TWC,

You mean he is "pro-life" and race-baiter?

plunge | March 29, 2005, 3:35pm | #

"Now, did I know how many alleged witnesses there were? Actually, I didn't. And while I'm more up to speed on the case now, I don't pretend to have a thorough knowledge of it. But I did not claim that Michael Schiavo was the only witness. Joe did. I let the claim pass in silence."

I think this is a pretty telling admission. Walker has declared that his position here is based on the "uncertainty" of the case. But in light of the above he pretty clearly made that judgement before he knew the basic facts of the court case. That belies any claim to some sort of reasonable "erring on the side of life" position, because if he was willing to declare that maintaining life was the right answer in abscence of any real knowledge of the facts, then this isn't a pragmatic position based on evidence, but a dogmatic position formed prior to them. He might claim that now that he knows more about the facts they don't change his position, but most people are in most cases unlikely to change their positions in light of new facts if they were willing to come to their original position without them.

Angela | March 29, 2005, 3:57pm | #

Eddie Tor:

Not hardly. Few of the regular Hit and Run posters are libertarians (save for their urge to yank Schiavo's tube) and only about the 3.75 of the Reason staffers even remotely resemble libertarians. It makes my head hurt.

I am amused by all in the "pro-death" camp who have suddenly discovered how intrusive the state is. They really don't believe their own rhetoric but merely want irk the Christers. It's no skin off anyone's ass if the parents are paying for Schiavo's health care. If she can't feel anything as nearly everyone agrees, what the hell should it matter to complete strangers if the tube had stayed in. As for Greer and his ability to discern Schiavo's desires, the standard law school evidence class can be among the most difficult as we have an adversarial system not a fact finding system. "Hearsay" and its exceptions are entirely arbitrary.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 3:57pm | #

plunge,

You are essentially right. And they call me a fanatic. :)
_____________________________________________

My last comment on this matter are via the words of Robert Browning (whether it posts correctly will be interesting to see):

The Bishop Orders His Tomb

Vanity, saith the preacher, vanity!
Draw round my bed: is Anselm keeping back?
Nephews - sons mine . . . ah God, I know not! Well--
She, men would have to be your mother once,
5 Old Gandolf envied me, so fair she was!
What's done is done, and she is dead beside,
Dead long ago, and I am Bishop since,
And as she died so must we die ourselves,
And thence ye may perceive the world's a dream.
10 Life, how and what is it? As here I lie
In this state-chamber, dying by degrees,
Hours and long hours in the dead night, I ask
"Do I live, am I dead?" Peace, peace seems all.
Saint Praxed's ever was the church for peace;
15 And so, about this tomb of mine. I fought
With tooth and nail to save my niche, ye know:
--Old Gandolf cozened me, despite my care;
Shrewd was that snatch from out the corner South
He graced his carrion with, God curse the same!
20 Yet still my niche is not so cramped but thence
One sees the pulpit o' the epistle-side,
And somewhat of the choir, those silent seats,
And up into the aery dome where live
The angels, and a sunbeam's sure to lurk:
25 And I shall fill my slab of basalt there,
And 'neath my tabernacle take my rest,
With those nine columns round me, two and two,
The odd one at my feet where Anselm stands:
Peach-blossom marble all, the rare, the ripe
30 As fresh-poured red wine of a mighty pulse.
--Old Gandolf with his paltry onion-stone,
Put me where I may look at him! True peach,
Rosy and flawless: how I earned the prize!
Draw close: that conflagration of my church
35 --What then? So much was saved if aught were missed!
My sons, ye would not be my death? Go dig
The white-grape vineyard where the oil-press stood,
Drop water gently till the surface sink,
And if ye find . . . Ah God, I know not, I! ...
40 Bedded in store of rotten fig-leaves soft,
And corded up in a tight olive-frail,
Some lump, ah God, of lapis lazuli,
Big as a Jew's head cut off at the nape,
Blue as a vein o'er the Madonna's breast ...
45 Sons, all have I bequeathed you, villas, all,
That brave Frascati villa with its bath,
So, let the blue lump poise between my knees,
Like God the Father's globe on both His hands
Ye worship in the Jesu Church so gay,
50 For Gandolf shall not choose but see and burst!
Swift as a weaver's shuttle fleet our years:
Man goeth to the grave, and where is he?
Did I say basalt for my slab, sons? Black--
'Twas ever antique-black I meant! How else
55 Shall ye contrast my frieze to come beneath?
The bas-relief in bronze ye promised me,
Those Pans and Nymphs ye wot of, and perchance
Some tripod, thyrsus, with a vase or so,
The Saviour at his sermon on the mount,
60 Saint Praxed in a glory, and one Pan
Ready to twitch the Nymph's last garment off,
And Moses with the tables . . . but I know
Ye mark me not! What do they whisper thee,
Child of my bowels, Anselm? Ah, ye hope
65 To revel down my villas while I gasp
Bricked o'er with beggar's mouldy travertine
Which Gandolf from his tomb-top chuckles at!
Nay, boys, ye love me--all of jasper, then!
'Tis jasper ye stand pledged to, lest I grieve.
70 My bath must needs be left behind, alas!
One block, pure green as a pistachio-nut,
There's plenty jasper somewhere in the world--
And have I not Saint Praxed's ear to pray
Horses for ye, and brown Greek manuscripts,
75 And mistresses with great smooth marbly limbs?
--That's if ye carve my epitaph aright,
Choice Latin, picked phrase, Tully's every word,
No gaudy ware like Gandolf's second line--
Tully, my masters? Ulpian serves his need!
80 And then how I shall lie through centuries,
And hear the blessed mutter of the mass,
And see God made and eaten all day long,
And feel the steady candle-flame, and taste
Good strong thick stupefying incense-smoke!
85 For as I lie here, hours of the dead night,
Dying in state and by such slow degrees,
I fold my arms as if they clasped a crook,
And stretch my feet forth straight as stone can point,
And let the bedclothes, for a mortcloth, drop
90 Into great laps and folds of sculptor's-work:
And as yon tapers dwindle, and strange thoughts
Grow, with a certain humming in my ears,
About the life before I lived this life,
And this life too, popes, cardinals and priests,
95 Saint Praxed at his sermon on the mount,
Your tall pale mother with her talking eyes,
And new-found agate urns as fresh as day,
And marble's language, Latin pure, discreet,
--Aha, ELUCESCEBAT quoth our friend?
100 No Tully, said I, Ulpian at the best!
Evil and brief hath been my pilgrimage.
All lapis, all, sons! Else I give the Pope
My villas! Will ye ever eat my heart?
Ever your eyes were as a lizard's quick,
105 They glitter like your mother's for my soul,
Or ye would heighten my impoverished frieze,
Piece out its starved design, and fill my vase
With grapes, and add a vizor and a Term,
And to the tripod ye would tie a lynx
110 That in his struggle throws the thyrsus down,
To comfort me on my entablature
Whereon I am to lie till I must ask
"Do I live, am I dead?" There, leave me, there!
For ye have stabbed me with ingratitude
115 To death--ye wish it--God, ye wish it! Stone--
Gritstone, a-crumble! Clammy squares which sweat
As if the corpse they keep were oozing through--
And no more lapis to delight the world!
Well, go! I bless ye. Fewer tapers there,
120 But in a row: and, going, turn your backs
--Ay, like departing altar-ministrants,
And leave me in my church, the church for peace,
That I may watch at leisure if he leers--
Old Gandolf, at me, from his onion-stone,
125 As still he envied me, so fair she was!

dhex | March 29, 2005, 4:50pm | #

gary: hence the problems with what's referred to as "internet wang" in some corners of the world.

angela: the very real question to be raised is what if the husband is right and he abandons her to that living death? that's worthy of contempt.

Henry | March 29, 2005, 5:02pm | #

You know, I thought I was done with this topic, but one last thing strikes me: what is the source of this enormous contempt for the judicial system, simply becasue it reached a result (it looks like) that some of you don't like? I mean, Jesus, this isn't some fucking kangaroo court proceeding--it has been beaten to fucking death for years, up and down the appeals latter repeatedly, and even had an unprecedented (and probably unconstitutional) grant of federal jurisdiction fabricated for it. What the fuck more do you want? Don't you think if all your great, convincing (to you--with your mind already made up) arguments and citations to the record had any real validity, raising even a plausible doubt, that SOME court would have stepped in? Christ, the 11th COA is the second or third most conservative COA and they just shitcanned it, en banc, too, with a craven Congress just begging them to step in.

As near as I can tell for some of you, the rule of law is great--when it gives you the result you want. Otherwise, fuck it, resort to ad hominem attacks on the judge, generalized quasi-populist attacks on the system, pointlessly obvious digressions on the possible shortcomings affecting all humans (including--duh--judges), whatever.

The degree to which this case has been litigated resembles nothing less than most extreme death row appeal cases, which I'm sure many of the you same people decry as an abuse of the system.

Talk about oxen being gored....

Barney Fife, BATF | March 29, 2005, 5:18pm | #

Excellent post, Jesse.

This reminds me of a line in a recent Dilbert cartoon: "I listed both the pros and the cons; people are so conditioned to take sides that they interpreted that as hating it."

This post seems to be functioning as a Rorschach test. The most strident reactions seem to be coming from people who interpret any recognition of nuance or uncertainty as a hidden agenda for the other side.

As for myself, I seriously doubt the agitprop on both sides that attributes base motives to either Michael Schiavo (his financial motivations or alleged spousal abuse) or the Schindlers (their "sick agenda"). Frankly, I suspect that both husband and parents have been focusing their lives on this battle for so long that they've forgotten where Terri Schiavo's interests and wishes leave off and their own agendas begin. But I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of either.

I tend to agree with Jesse that the courts should have erred on the side of caution, given the willingness of the parents to provide financial support and the uncertainty over Mrs. Schiavo's wishes. I also, however, share the "Dehydration Party's" utter revulsion at the self-serving grandstanders like Frist and Delay who inserted themselves into the issue.

As the Adventus blog recently commented, Tom Delay should be asking himself, very carefully, exactly what Michael Schiavo did to make himself a public figure. Delay's scurrilous and utterly despicable remarks are enough to leave him without a pot to piss in, should Schiavo decide to see him in court. I recently saw a quote from Delay referring to Schiavo's attorney as "the face of evil," or some such thing. One of the lowest points of this whole circus has got to be hearing a repulsive and putrid *thing* like Tom Delay referring to anybody else in those terms.

I am not comfortable with judging Schiavo's or the Schindlers' motives, but I have absolutely no such reservation about Delay. I'd bet a month's pay he's never done anything in his life for noble motives. Despite all his Jesus-shouting in front of audiences stupid enough to be taken in by it, I'll bet he's got a Satanic altar concealed in the back of his office. What a fucking creep.

Kevin Carson | March 29, 2005, 5:19pm | #

BTW, I obviously forgot to change my name back from Barney Fife after a recent gag post. Oops.

Iguana | March 29, 2005, 5:21pm | #

"Not hardly. Few of the regular Hit and Run posters are libertarians (save for their urge to yank Schiavo's tube) and only about the 3.75 of the Reason staffers even remotely resemble libertarians. It makes my head hurt."

Interesting observation

Mo | March 29, 2005, 5:29pm | #

Oh yeah Angela, the posters here applaud the government when it takes some guy’s “blighted” house in the name of eminent domain. And we love the Secure Flight system. Oh and don’t forget the IRS, probably the favoritest government agency after the FCC, FDA, DEA and DOE. Clearly, the entire staff doesn’t live up to the libertarian ideals and Julian needs to return his decoder ring and his Staff of Libertarianism (+1 vs. gov’t employees). Maybe Reason just needs some blue tinted druids and ferret owners on the staff.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 5:33pm | #

Barney Fife, BATF,

Yes, because someone reacts negatively to bullshit, that automatically means that the bullshit is true. Not quite.

...the Schindlers (their "sick agenda").

To state that their claims re: keeping the body of alive of Terri are sick isn't agitprop. They indeed made those claims. They are on record making those claims. That I find them sick is my position on the matter. So, how, pray reveal, is my position propagandistic?

But I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of either.

When have I doubted the sincerity of the Schindler's? I haven't. I nevertheless find their position sick; its a fetish for a lump of cells resembling a human being.

I tend to agree with Jesse that the courts should have erred on the side of caution, given the willingness of the parents to provide financial support and the uncertainty over Mrs. Schiavo's wishes.

Jesse's is a silly outcome-determinative position.

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 5:38pm | #

Reasonable people reading the evidence can differ as to what Schiavo would have preferred...

The problem is that I have as yet to meet a person (here or in real life) who agrees with the Schindlers and at the same time read the evidence. What I do find is folks like Dynamist and Jesse Walker who made up their mind before hand.

plunge | March 29, 2005, 5:57pm | #

"This post seems to be functioning as a Rorschach test. The most strident reactions seem to be coming from people who interpret any recognition of nuance or uncertainty as a hidden agenda for the other side."

Hidden agenda? It's not hidden: Walker states his agenda outright.

"I tend to agree with Jesse that the courts should have erred on the side of caution"

You guys say this, but since this belief seemed to have been formed before you even heard what evidence the courts had to consider in the first place, what this really seems to mean is that you do not accept that oral evidence is EVER sufficient to establish ones wishes in such matters, which is a position contradicted by Florida law (and even Supreme Court rulings).

In other words this "err on the..." stuff is dressed up to sound like fairminded pragamatic rhetoric, but it's in the end not so open to evidence or discussion after all.

Kevin Carson | March 29, 2005, 6:08pm | #

Gary Gunnels,

"Yes, because someone reacts negatively to bullshit, that automatically means that the bullshit is true."

You've obviously applied the same critical reading skills to my comment that you did to Jesse's post.

"What I do find is folks like Dynamist and Jesse Walker who made up their mind before hand."

No further comment is necessary.

Cathy Young | March 29, 2005, 6:15pm | #

I'd like weigh in from the, er, "pro-death" side of the barricades, in response to Gary Gunnels' charge of intellectual dishonesty against Jesse.

Gary, you say that Terri Schiavo's brother-in-law and "a friend" corroborated Michael's testimony that she didn't want to be kept alive by a feeding tube.

The friend in question is married to another brother of Michael Schiavo's. In other words, she is a member of the Schiavo family and not exactly an unbiased party -- though she and Terri apparently were close friends.

That's a relevant fact that deserves full disclosure. If we demand accuracy from the other side, we'd better demand it from our own, too.

As for the larger issue raised by Jesse: I think it's a legitimate point. As I said in my post, I do think this is a case (and issue) on which men and women of good will can disagree. What bothers me is the fanaticism, and I really don't see an equivalent fanaticism, right now, on the other side. (Though George Felos does seem to be something of a nut job.) I don't think it's particularly monstrous for doctors to disapprove of parents who insist on keeping their child "alive" in a vegetative state indefinitely, or insist on aggressive, and excruciating, life-saving measures to extend the life of a terminally ill child. Obviously, if people are coerced into giving consent to "pulling the plug," that's wrong. But I also think that we simply can't discuss these issue without acknowledging the fact that right now the costs of health care are to a large extent socialized. (If they weren't, the issue of whether to artificially maintain the life of a vegetative patient who will never recover would become moot once the money ran out.)

Gary Gunnels | March 29, 2005, 6:32pm | #

Kevin Carson,

You've obviously simply ignored my quite valid criticism.

Yes, no further comment necessary; Walker made up his mind before he knew much of anything about the case; that seemed true to me last when I started educating myself on the case instead of just going with a gut reaction.

Cathy Young,

Gary, you say that Terri Schiavo's brother-in-law and "a friend" corroborated Michael's testimony that she didn't want to be kept alive by a feeding tube.

On one occassion, yes. On other occassions I have mentioned that she was related by marraige. Indeed, on numerous occassions I have detailed much of what the GAL discusses (which Walker has apparently thought too tedious to read) in an effort to teach the ignorant about the case itself.

That's a relevant fact that deserves full disclosure.

And I have given it full disclosure at varying times. The heart of the problem of course is Walker's unwillingness to read the GAL (which I have asked him and others to read - begged in fact). If you are depending on MSNBC to teach you about what has happened in this case, then you are going to be hopelessly lost.

As I said in my post, I do think this is a case (and issue) on whic