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Turns out Joe the Plumber is unlicensed and owes back taxes. I'm starting to hope the week ends with him endorsing Bob Barr.
Update: A few readers mistook this post for a part of the two-minute hate now unfolding at some of the pro-Barack blogs, so I'll try to be clearer: I'm for unlicensed plumbers. When I lived in South Baltimore, I found two kinds of competent handymen: the ones who advertised in the yellow pages, charged a lot of money, and signaled that they were trustworthy by being formally certified, and the ones who mostly stuck to their neighborhoods, didn't charge much, and signaled that they were trustworthy via word of mouth. (I also encountered a company that informed us its roofers were licensed but was lying. But that's a tale for another day.)
Anyway, the idea of the post was that a guy who doesn't like taxes or occupational licensing might want to vote for the Libertarian. Though after today, I wouldn't blame Joe if he decided to skip this whole voting business altogether.
Our Man In Ohio
Comments to "Our Man In Ohio":
Paul | October 16, 2008, 5:12pm | #
Have I ever iterated my rule about poster-child poltics? Never... EVER glom onto the 'regular' guy and use him as a campaign prop. It never turns out well. Because let's face it, we regular folks have as many skeletons in our closets as the very politicians we make fun of.Just smile, shake hands and tell them you feel their pain. Then move on.
BDB | October 16, 2008, 5:12pm | #
Epic Fail.Drink! | October 16, 2008, 5:15pm | #
You're stepping on Weigel's beat.pistoffnick | October 16, 2008, 5:15pm | #
Wait. The definition of a plumber is one who has a license and is a member of the plumbers union?Oh noes. Now that news of his unlicensed status has hit the media, I'm sure that every pipe he ever fixed will burst, and every toilet he ever repaired will back up. Look for the housing crisis to get even worse, what with all the formerly nice houses being deluged in raw sewage. Thanks a lot, Joe the Plumber.
Actually, if you RTFA, it's not that bad. But still, it's great political theater.
Warren | October 16, 2008, 5:19pm | #
I'm starting to hope the week ends with him endorsing Bob Barr.Only if he's using his plumbing business as a front for the pot he's growing in his basement.
Elemenope | October 16, 2008, 5:20pm | #
Paul wins.the innominate one | October 16, 2008, 5:24pm | #
can he replace Wayne Allen Root on the LP ticket?This would be a good starting point for a real conservative to offer some fresh insights into paying back taxes (tell the IRS to take a flying fuck) and license regulations (how about free trade for the little guy), but alas there are no conservative/limited government choices this time around. Unless you trust BB
Beleaguered Homeowner | October 16, 2008, 5:26pm | #
Big deal. I haven't hired a licensed plumber in nearly 20 years. The unlicensed guys are just as good, and about 20% cheaper.Orange Line Special | October 16, 2008, 5:28pm | #
It's unfortunate that Jesse Walker didn't comment that - in exchange for doing his civic duty and trying to hold a politician accountable for his policies - JtP has been given the full fascistic treatment by BHO's supporters. Is Reason afraid of calling many BHO supporters what they really are?In any case, now that we've had JtP, it's time for "Pete the Prosecutor" to take questioning Obama to the next level. If you support the fundamental American concept of holding politicians accountable and you don't want two years of in effect one party rule, help push that plan.
bubba | October 16, 2008, 5:29pm | #
I suspect the 6 guys who showed up in a car with Mexican plates to cut down a tree limb are not bonded and insured. I forgot to ask.If they kill themselves, I'm just going to sweep them into a neighbor's yard.
anarch | October 16, 2008, 5:33pm | #
So he's poetically licensed.Jesse Walker | October 16, 2008, 5:34pm | #
It's unfortunate that Jesse Walker didn't comment that - in exchange for doing his civic duty and trying to hold a politician accountable for his policies - JtP has been given the full fascistic treatment by BHO's supporters. Is Reason afraid of calling many BHO supporters what they really are?Nope! I'll say right now that many of the blog comments I've seen attacking Joe the Plumber are so drenched in bigotry and political ugliness, they remind me of Lonewacko.
Kolohe | October 16, 2008, 5:35pm | #
I'm going to post the same thing I did on a previous thread:Remember when Democrats were pissed off when people dug into the poster family for SCHIP from Maryland?
Those were the days.
Elemenope | October 16, 2008, 5:43pm | #
Kolohe makes a good point.Also, I think I'll re-post what I had posted on the other "Joe the Plumber" thread:
Please, please, please let the final weeks of silly season be consumed by something OTHER than the vagaries of whether some guy in Ohio does or does not fit into certain categories, is or is not a patriot/laborer/manager/idiot/rebel, related or not to whoever, is registered to what political party, and whether he uses his middle name as his first name?
Please?
I mean, I know this is McCain's fault. But still.
Please?
Twistedn Nerve | October 16, 2008, 5:45pm | #
Then why do you perpetuate it Jesse?Jesse Walker | October 16, 2008, 5:47pm | #
Perpetuate what?rhywun | October 16, 2008, 5:49pm | #
I'm starting to hope the week ends with him endorsing Bob Barr.The way this is headed, I wouldn't be surprised if he endorsed LaRouche.
Mad Max | October 16, 2008, 5:50pm | #
“he stopped Senator Barack Obama during a visit to his block this weekend . . .”So this Wurzelbacher guy wasn't going out of his way to annoy Sen. Obama. The Senator was doing photo-ops in Wurzelbacher's neighborhood.
"Mr. Wurzelbacher told [Katie] Couric that his encounter with Mr. Obama was a matter of impulse.
“'Neighbors were outside asking him questions, and I didn’t think they were asking him tough enough questions,' he said.
"He went on, 'You know, I’ve always wanted to ask one of these guys a question and really corner them and get them to answer a question,' he said, 'for once instead of tap dancing around it, and unfortunately I asked the question, but I still got a tap dance.'
He added, 'Almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr.'”
Joe is a racist! Sen. Obama is black, just like Sammy Davis, Jr!
"An official at Local 50 of the plumber’s union, based in Toledo, said Mr. Wurzelbacher does not hold a license. He also has never served an apprenticeship and does not belong to the union. (The national plumber’s union, the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters, and Service Mechanics, endorsed Mr. Obama, it should be noted.)
“'He’s basically playing games with the world,' Thomas Joseph, the local’s business manager, said in a telephone interview Thursday morning. . . .
"Unlike some other states, Ohio does not have a formal statewide licensing system for plumbers. But the city of Toledo and other municipalities do, Mr. Joseph said, and Mr. Wurzelbacher has not met those requirements.
“'All contractors are licensed, and he does not have a license, either as a contractor or a plumber,' the union official said, citing a search of government records. 'I can’t find that he’s ever even applied for any kind of apprenticeship, and he has never belonged to local 189 in Columbus, which is what he claims on his Facebook page.'"
Ya sure ya don't want to join the union, Mr. Wurzelbacher ? It would really be unfortunate if you woke up one morning to find your tires slashed and a bunch of sugar in your gas tank.
"According to public records, Mr. Wurzelbacher has been subject to two liens, each over $1,000, one of which — a personal tax lien — is still outstanding. . . ."
No wonder he whines about taxes so much!
"Mr. Wurzelbacher is registered to vote in Lucas County under the name Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher.
“'We have his named spelled W-O, instead of W-U,' Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said in a telephone interview. 'Handwriting is sometimes hard to read. He has never corrected it in his registration card.'"
Ah, that non-voter meme was so tragically short-lived. Hopefully, though, nobody will notice the actual facts and continue to go with the initial reports.
PS - I've met a lot of Americans, but I've never met an "ordinary" American. Such a creature exists only in political speeches.
rhywun | October 16, 2008, 5:54pm | #
Mr. Wurzelbacher is registered to vote in Lucas County under the name Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher.He goes by Joe because Sam was already taken by the Butcher.
Don Mynack | October 16, 2008, 5:56pm | #
Good recall on the SCHIP family, Kolohe, but remember they were just a bit more involved than this guy, given the fact that the Dems trotted out the kid to deliver the response to a weekly presidential radio address. This guy asked a question of a presidential candidate, got a bullshit answer, then was picked up by right wing media and pretty much used by the McCain campaign without his consent. The Frost family was investigated by bloggers (with some incorrect info), then defended by the media. Joe the Plumber was investigated by the media, then defended by bloggers.brotherben | October 16, 2008, 6:02pm | #
while we all are repeating out earlier comments from other threads here's mine:God, I hope Joe the plumber is leaving a squeaky clean life. The press just put on the rubber gloves and got the flashlights out. All that's left is the coin toss to determine if lubricant will be used.
Who cares? Left wing political addicts? | October 16, 2008, 6:04pm | #
I'm not a licensed electrician, but I work for people fixing their electrical issues all the time. So what, what's the big deal? I'm safe and I can prove it.Licensing of skilled tradesmen has its benefits and drawbacks. On one hand you have to enter yourself into state databases, which can EASILY be abused by competition that has inside connections (how many times do we read about these kinds of abuses in the news?)... Kinda scary. On the other hand, I can't say I'm licensed like a licensed electrician can. When I show potential clients my portfolio and list of references they usually don't care.
Jamie Kelly | October 16, 2008, 6:05pm | #
Where does Nick the Dick fit into all this?Whoa | October 16, 2008, 6:05pm | #
His name's not Joe??? He's obviously hiding something if he's going by his middle name! Dear Lord, save us from those that don't go by their given name! They'll be the ruin of this great nation!Please....
And he's not licensed??? He even admitted it! He said since he works for a licensed plumber, he doesn't have to be!! Dear Lord, save us from the upstart employees that are looking to improve themselves! They'll be the ruin of this great nation!!
Again, please....
Twisted Nerve | October 16, 2008, 6:06pm | #
Jesse,The character assination you call out:
"Nope! I'll say right now that many of the blog comments I've seen attacking Joe the Plumber are so drenched in bigotry and political ugliness, they remind me of Lonewacko."
but you preceede with this:
"Turns out Joe the Plumber is unlicensed and owes back taxes.I'm starting to hope the week ends with him endorsing Bob Barr.
"
Pehaps I misread your intent, and If so my apologies, but the 2 statement seem incongrous.
What did the man do that was so terrible? Dare to question the Savior? He asked a question of a political cantidate.
brotherben | October 16, 2008, 6:06pm | #
Jamie, right between your cheek and your gum there sweety.Jamie Kelly | October 16, 2008, 6:07pm | #
All that's left is the coin toss to determine if lubricant will be used.Nah. The media isn't nearly that polite. Richard Jewell died bleeding from the asshole.
Orange Line Special | October 16, 2008, 6:08pm | #
Jesse Walker: what "bigotry" are you referring to? Or, by "bigotry" do you mean comments that might have some small impact on the profit margins of crooked companies or crooked countries?Jesse Walker | October 16, 2008, 6:10pm | #
Nerve: Maybe the post was too subtle (or too lame), but the idea was that a guy who doesn't like taxes or occupational licensing ought to be a libertarian. No character assassination intended.Twisted Nerve | October 16, 2008, 6:15pm | #
He dared to ask, "How is taking more from me (or who I hope to become), helping me? I would add by what moral priciple do you feel justified in your claim of ownership of me.Twisted Nerve | October 16, 2008, 6:16pm | #
Jesse, then I did misunderstand and humbly beg you forgiveness.SIV | October 16, 2008, 6:17pm | #
Remember when Democrats were pissed off when people dug into the poster family for SCHIP from Maryland?Those welfare-chiseling upper middle class scum?
How could I forget!
Twisted Nerve | October 16, 2008, 6:21pm | #
Remember when Democrats were pissed off when people dug into the poster family for SCHIP from Maryland?An essential difference between the two, Joe wants to be left alone, The Maryland Folks were complaining that I had to gall object to their hand in my pocket.
Carmela | October 16, 2008, 6:21pm | #
You know if he had questioned McCain and made Obama some point, the media would be throwing him a parade.He owes $1200 - big fucking deal.
And I love how the union comes after him - as they are voting for Obama. A-holes.
Warty | October 16, 2008, 6:22pm | #
Or, by "bigotry" do you mean comments that might have some small impact on the profit margins of crooked companies or crooked countries?Lonewacko has quite the hero complex, doesn't he?
SIV | October 16, 2008, 6:52pm | #
Hey good news political junkies!Drudge is reporting Gallup's likely voter sample has Obama and mcCain in a statistical tie nationally.Hopey might have peaked too soon!
Run Queeg Run! Run Queeg Run! Run Queeg Run!
Mike Farmer | October 16, 2008, 7:08pm | #
I think the pertinent point is that Obama said we need to share the wealth. It's unseemly to say it out loud like that.God, this is getting funny.
Mr. Nice guy | October 16, 2008, 7:08pm | #
"He questioned the Obama. HE MUST PAY."This is Obama's fault? McCain totally uses this guy in a juvenile and stupid debate gimmick and the spotlight falling on him is OBAMA'S fault? Uh, that spotlight was placed a little solidly on him by McCain for purely selfish reasons....
Balls, big brassy ones that is...
sage | October 16, 2008, 7:29pm | #
How hard is it to be a plumber? Don't you just carry around a wrench and a Polish pogo stick?
SIV | October 16, 2008, 7:32pm | #
MNG,What is "juvenile and stupid" about it?
Plumber Joe has got some traction and highlights a big question about Obama. I'm not rich, is he going to raise MY taxes?
Yes He Can !
economist | October 16, 2008, 7:32pm | #
Um, MNG. Yeah, hi. Listen, uh, I think the point is that Obama supporters responded to the childish ploy at the debate by hunting down the guy who asked the question in the first place and having a media tizzy over what he said. And leftists regularly use poster child(ren) in debates. So don't get all huffy over it. I personally, think this shouldn't even be an issue, but since it is I'm giving my two cents' worth on it.Orange Line Special | October 16, 2008, 7:33pm | #
Jesse Walker: what "bigotry" are you referring to? Or, by "bigotry" do you mean comments that might have some small impact on the profit margins of crooked companies or crooked countries?Mr. Nice Guy | October 16, 2008, 7:33pm | #
It's a stupid gimmick SIV "I know this average Joe..." It's so stupid because he actually used a real man named Joe, I mean, it's almost a meta-joke of simple-mindedness...economist | October 16, 2008, 7:35pm | #
On a side note, I think if you've worked for fifteen years in a trade without a complaint and your lack of a license only comes up when you're under media scrutiny, it might not be that big of a deal.Mr. Nice guy | October 16, 2008, 7:35pm | #
"Obama supporters" hunted this guy down?Or do you mean that McCain tossed out his name in a gimmicky attempt to seem tight with the "average joe" and the media (surprise!) actually looked the guy up.
This is kind of what the media does.
economist | October 16, 2008, 7:38pm | #
This is why I post on H&R, rather than saying what I think in public. Then people might look at my house and notice the fence is a foot and a half taller than is technically "legal" within city limits.economist | October 16, 2008, 7:39pm | #
No, MNG, when they harp on $1200 back taxes and the lack of a plumbing license, that's hunting the guy down.Mr. Nice Guy | October 16, 2008, 7:39pm | #
When I travel this great land I get to meet "real people" struggling to make ends meet, like Susie Next-door in Ames Iowa who is struggling to make her chicken farm work. Susie inherited the chicken farm from her father Joe Regular guy who left his small Iowa farm to fight the Nazi's at Normandy, where he sacrificed his left ear to enemy shrapnel. After Joe's sacrifice and Susie's hard work and God-fearin goodness now my opponent wants to tax the capital gains made on sellin' the family tractor!Mr. Nice guy | October 16, 2008, 7:44pm | #
"some version of “Joe the Plumber” was mentioned two dozen times during the 90 minutes"24 times. "Joe the Plumber" is worried about blah, blah, that's simpleminded to an amazing degree.
"Mr. Wurzelbacher suddenly found camera crews outside his home, Katie Couric on the phone, and himself in the full glare of the media spotlight."
Yes, that's certainly Obama supporters hunting that guy down. I mean, in a nationally televised debate the GOP candidate mentions a hitherto unknown man's name TWENTY-FOUR times and the press actually investigates what the hell he is talking about. Yeah, that is a real witch hunt by "Obama supporters."
economist | October 16, 2008, 7:46pm | #
This might be "don't feed the troll" moment.economist | October 16, 2008, 7:49pm | #
In other news, I found last night's episode of "South Park" rather disappointing. Although I did like the part where Cartman gets compared to cancer.economist | October 16, 2008, 7:50pm | #
And where Cartman finds out he didn't lose face with the guys after Wendy kicked his because they "always thought he sucked".economist | October 16, 2008, 7:50pm | #
Last post should say "kicked his ass".Mr. Nice Guy | October 16, 2008, 7:52pm | #
A common gimmick of politicians, used to let them us "common folks" know that they rub elbows with "our kind" is to put the name of some "real person" in their stump speeches. I suspect you are big and smart enough to actually know that. I also suspect that you actually would agree that it is a cheesy thing to do, appealing to a pretty low denominator (I mean, why not simply say "your policy will have negative effect x" rather than "you know, I met joe six-pack who is a god fearin' [fill in the blank] and your plan will have negative effect x on him").So it's a silly juvenile gimmick. But to use it TWENTY-FOUR times in one performance, now that's the height of stupidity! It's a silly pony used once, but to beat it 24 times in a single ride, damn, that's dumb animal cruelty...
Paul | October 16, 2008, 7:59pm | #
My favorite was Hillary Clinton parading around the woman who had horrendous healthcare costs for her unexplicably sick daughter.Turned out to be munchausen by proxy.
Ohhhh to be a fly on the wall in Hillary's office when that news hit the presses.
economist | October 16, 2008, 8:14pm | #
Paul,It's fun to beat up poster children, because they rarely fit the actual profile that a particular side wants.
Kevin P. | October 16, 2008, 8:28pm | #
The funny thing is, Joe the Plumber was playing football in his own front yard when Obama walked into his neighborhood.http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418
Quote:
But that will not prevent people from claiming that this is some kind of McCain operation. Insane Andrew Sullivan is already on the case.
Mr. Wurzelbacher was playing football in his front yard with his son, Joey, on Sunday afternoon when Mr. Obama made an unscheduled stop to go door to door greeting voters and asking for their support.
And since he isn't a licensed plumber, the City of Toledo Plumbing Board of Control may consider a punishment for Wurzelbacher. That should teach him about speaking up to his betters:
The plumber asked the candidate a legitimate question about his economic plan and it was Obama who put his foot in his mouth and revealed that he wanted to Spread. The. Wealth. I think this is what has stuck a needle deep into the lefty psyche. The lefties are going bananas over this guy. On other blogs, folks have pulled up his divorce records and found that he was - gasp! divorced. They found a "connection" (probably bogus) to the infamous Charles Keating based upon a common last name. They've found that he owes some back taxes on his property tax. This is all from the party of the "little people".
The press has dug deeper into his background in hours than they have into Obama's background in months. This guy is going to regret ever opening his mouth and asking the Messiah a tough question.
concerned observer | October 16, 2008, 8:30pm | #
viva la wingnuts!Mr. Nice Guy | October 16, 2008, 8:45pm | #
Yeah Kevin P, the press are scrutinizing the guy because he asked Obama a question. It has nothing to do with the fact that John McCain threw the guy's name out in a nationally televised debate TWENTY FOUR times (no worse, not his name, but "Joe the Plumber" so you could know he was a hard-workin' kind of guy that John McCain feels connected to!).lol, keep working the memo!
Mike Farmer | October 16, 2008, 9:13pm | #
The way I see it is Obama stumbled across this guy, Joe, and he asked Obama a question. Obama replied with the answer about spreading the wealth. McCain over-used it and it got legs. Now the media has a story and the left is trying to discredit it. Seems pretty simple.joe | October 16, 2008, 9:16pm | #
Oh, look, the same people who can be counted to say whatever is in National Review are all saying the same thing again.Joe the Plumber: the new Tire Gauge.
Yeah but since he is a rich guy isn't he getting his share of the bailout money. Oh yeah that's right that only goes to the politically connected rich people.
SIV | October 16, 2008, 9:23pm | #
Tire gauges were never concerned that Obama will raise their taxes in a depression.joe | October 16, 2008, 9:31pm | #
Um, if Joe the Plumber and the political argument he was drafted into were working, don't you think that the guy who brought him up two dozen times and kept making that argument would have, I don't know, lost the debate by a less than 20 points among independents? Or come out of the debate with something other than a net loss of support?One gimmick after another, and SIV is certain that every single one of them is a game-changer.
joe | October 16, 2008, 9:35pm | #
Tire gauges were never concerned that Obama will raise their taxes in a depression.What was the tire gauge argument, again?
Oh, yeah, the common folk think that Obama's energy plan during a period of high gas prices was too leftish.
So. How'd that go again? Think I can still get one with an Obama logo from the McCain campaign?
No, but seriously, this is a lot better, because people are naturally repelled by economic liberalism during bad economic times. Especially when the Republicans are in power.
SIV | October 16, 2008, 9:37pm | #
joe,If those swing voters get economically unsecure about Obama it is a game changer.
SIV | October 16, 2008, 9:40pm | #
I never said a word about the tire gauges joe.I knew the gas prices would be coming down in deflation.
I just wonder what everyday median income Americans think about having "their wealth" spread around.
joe | October 16, 2008, 9:55pm | #
Seriously, they must have thousands of those things lying around.Tire gauges were Sarah Palin before Sarah Palin. They were greek columns before greek columns. They were Bill Ayers before Bill Ayers. They were Joe the Plumber before Joe the Plumber.
LGF Fan | October 16, 2008, 9:56pm | #
"Spread the wealth around" is Obama's "Macaca Moment".LGF Fan | October 16, 2008, 9:59pm | #
You can get a tired guage right here!http://nobamablog.wordpress.com/2008/08/09/obamas-energy-plan-get-your-tire-gauge-today/
I think people ought to be disturbed by the fact that this guy did nothing beyond ask Obama a few unconfortable questions and is now having his life drug out by a hostile media. Is it the case that anyone who dares ask a question of a politician has immediately set themselves up for public scutiny and surrendered all privacy up to and including having their home address printed on some leftwing loon website? I think any reasonable person left or right ought to be disturbed by that. Who cares if this guy is or is not licensed or where he lives? What matters is the reality of either candidate's tax plan.
joe | October 16, 2008, 10:30pm | #
I'm sorry, was Joe the "Plumber" the first person to ask a presidential candidate uncomfortable questions?Why, no. Barack Obama and John McCain have been travelling around the country, campaigning, holding town halls, and being asked questions for a year and a half now. A lot of other candidates did, too, during the primaries.
So the question is, why is this guy getting all of this attention, when none of those other people did? And the only answer is, because he was picked up and used as a poster boy the McCain campaign and the right-wing media, which set off a frenzy among the real media.
Of course, they wanted to set off a frenzy among the media - that's why this guy and his question were flogged so exhaustively throughout the blogosphere, right-wing radio, and by John McCain last night.
They just didn't realize there would be dirt dug up, and it would turn ugly.
24AheadDotCom | October 16, 2008, 10:31pm | #
John: that's what you'd think. Except, Reason isn't really a libertarian site. For instance, I've been pushing the idea of people doing what JtP did for almost two years, and almost every comment at Reason on my efforts has mocked my efforts. They don't have an understanding of fundamental American concepts, but instead seem to only be interested in helping crooked businesses and countries make money.See, of course, the smear from Jesse Walker above.
joe | October 16, 2008, 10:32pm | #
Who cares if this guy is or is not licensed or where he lives?Who cares if his name is Joe? Who cares if he's a plumber? Who cares if he wanted to buy a business?
Who made this guy a story again?
Kolohe | October 16, 2008, 10:44pm | #
Who cares if this guy is or is not licensed or where he lives?Who cares if his name is Joe? Who cares if he's a plumber? Who cares if he wanted to buy a business?
Who made this guy a story again?
joe, serious question.
Were you equally comfortable when that SCHIP family was thrust on the national stage (the girl IIRC gave the Dem's weelky radio response) and people started picking their lives appart. (e.g. 'they have a 400K home! They have three new cars!' etc)
Mr. Nice Guy | October 16, 2008, 10:51pm | #
I don't think joe or I are comfortable with any of that. We just are amazed at how this is supposed to be Obama's fault. It was McCain who simple-mindedly mentioned this guy TWENTY FOUR times at the debate. jesusJohn | October 16, 2008, 11:00pm | #
"We just are amazed at how this is supposed to be Obama's fault. It was McCain who simple-mindedly mentioned this guy TWENTY FOUR times at the debate. jesus"Mention him all you want. But it is Obama's piece of shit supporters who are going out to smear the guy. He didn't ask McCain to mention him. Joe thinks the guy works for McCain. The proper response from Obama is that is just one guy and here is why what I am saying is right. The right response is not "lets find dirt on this guy." That is just being a thug, which Obama seems to be. Look at this incident, the Missouri incident and the harrassment of the radio station that interviewed Howard Kurtz. Just because you don't like Obama's opponent doesn't mean that you should justify actions like that. What the fuck are they going to be pulling if they ever get any real power?
Kolohe | October 16, 2008, 11:11pm | #
I don't think joe or I are comfortable with any of that. We just are amazed at how this is supposed to be Obama's fault.Fair enough. And I don't blame Obama. I blame his supporters (in particular several diarists at Daily Kos).
I also don't blame McCain. Just like I don't blame the Democrats for the SCHIP family. I blame Malkin (et al)
Agree?
BDB | October 16, 2008, 11:17pm | #
Kolohe has it right.Personally I blame Bill Clinton (or was it Reagan? I forget) for how they started using "regular people" and singling them out at their SOTU addresses. That started this whole shit. That and the media fetishization of "regular blue collar Joes" (really white, lower middle class, older Catholics in the rustbelt, for some reason supposed to stand in for "normal" Americans even though they are in NO WAY typical) in Scranton and Toledo.
BDB | October 16, 2008, 11:19pm | #
The "typical American" is probably much closer to Johnny the Office Drone, a 40-something college educated racially ambiguous white collar protestant who lives in Atlanta or Los Angeles than it is to "Joe the Plumber".Mr. Nice guy | October 16, 2008, 11:22pm | #
KoloheI don't know who is digging up dirt on "Joe the Plumber" (God I hate that phrase). It's a stupid, wrong and senseless thing to do whoever is doing it.
However, it certainly was a predictable response to McCain's mentioning this guy so much at the debate that a great deal of press scrutiny would fall upon him. They were not going to ignore some guy that McCain brought up an incredible amount of times. To some extent that is the press' job.
When other's take what the press finds and attack this guy they are doing a wrong and worthless thing.
joe | October 16, 2008, 11:24pm | #
Kolohe,Where did I say I was comfortable with this?
"Media frenzy" is not generally a term of affection, you know.
My point is that the storyline John and so many others are repeating in their recognizeable unison isn't accurate. The media didn't go into a frenzy because this guy asked a question; they went into a frenzy because he was turned into the flavor of the month by a political party, who set out to create a media frenzy around him.
I think the whole thing stinks.
SIV | October 16, 2008, 11:24pm | #
I blame those upper middle class welfare-chiseler dirtbags who were the SCHIP family.joe | October 16, 2008, 11:25pm | #
Joe thinks the guy works for McCain.Where the hell did THAT come from?
BDB | October 16, 2008, 11:29pm | #
Joe, it's because they assume you're just a typical LiberalBlogger, and all LiberalBloggers think the guy was a secret RepublicanPlant.LiberalBloggers also believe that the TrigPalin was really Bristol's, and that the Ohio 2004 result was a DieboldPlot.
SIV | October 16, 2008, 11:31pm | #
Joe the Plumber was known before the debate.He was all over the 'net as Obama tipped his hand in answering his question.Obama wasn't at his own house in Chicago or some tony neighborhood in San Francisco or Manhattan. He was in a working class subdivision of Toledo, Ohio and he tells some blue collar guy in a dirty T-shirt asking about Obama's tax policy that he intends to SPREAD HIS WEALTH AROUND.I'm not even gonna touch the racial angle.
BDB | October 16, 2008, 11:33pm | #
There's a racial angle? WTF? On what planet?BDB | October 16, 2008, 11:34pm | #
SIV, I hate to break this to you buddy--but nobody outside the right wing base is going to hear "spread the wealth around" and go OMG! TEH COMMUNISM!It's not happening. Sorry.
joe | October 16, 2008, 11:35pm | #
I'm not even gonna touch the racial angle.Oh, is that was this is about.
joe | October 16, 2008, 11:37pm | #
Joe the Plumber was known before the debate.He was all over the 'net...
Like I said, the Republicans whipped up a media frenzy around this guy, and now look at it.
Gee, it's almost like whipping up frenzies during an election campaign can lead to bad places.
BDB | October 16, 2008, 11:38pm | #
Srssly, there's a racial angle? O rly? REALLY? Cause I'm not seeing it. Is this one of those "dog whistles" they talk about?joe | October 16, 2008, 11:49pm | #
I'm always accused of being overly-sensitive about racial issues, but it never occured to me that there was a racial angle.SIV, you need to get yourself one of those fancy new bags. The ones that keep the cats inside.
SIV | October 17, 2008, 12:33am | #
Hard to believe you needed to explain that Jesse.I think "unlicensed" translates differently between our and the "leftist elite"'s decoder rings.
Elemenope | October 17, 2008, 12:39am | #
He was all over the 'net as Obama tipped his hand in answering his question.Obama wasn't at his own house in Chicago or some tony neighborhood in San Francisco or Manhattan. He was in a working class subdivision of Toledo, Ohio and he tells some blue collar guy in a dirty T-shirt asking about Obama's tax policy that he intends to SPREAD HIS WEALTH AROUND.I'm not even gonna touch the racial angle.Actually, I thought this blogpost was a more appropriate reaction/reading of the *gasp* spread the wealth quote.
But SIV thinks the race is tightening, so far be it for me to rain on his ideological parade...
Elemenope | October 17, 2008, 12:40am | #
And what's this about a racial angle?SIV | October 17, 2008, 1:00am | #
Welfare has a racial angle.Obama in a presumably predominately white working class neighborhood telling a potentially undecided working class swing State voter he intends to spread the citizen's "wealth" around.
Obama was using the codewords the wrong way.
gmatts | October 17, 2008, 1:53am | #
"He was in a working class subdivision of Toledo, Ohio and he tells some blue collar guy in a dirty T-shirt asking about Obama's tax policy that he intends to SPREAD HIS WEALTH AROUND.I'm not even gonna touch the racial angle."I guess it serves Obama right for being all uppity to a guy in a t-shirt that may or may not have been dirty.
Elemenope | October 17, 2008, 2:04am | #
SIV:Are you saying, and stop me if I'm getting this wrong, but are you saying there are no poor white people on Welfare?
Mr. Nice Guy | October 17, 2008, 7:33am | #
Of course if you're someone like SIV and you hear "spread the wealth around" it MUST mean welfare. If could not mean a variety of policies which are designed to in many ways affect wealth/income distributions. You know, like the G.I. Bill (horribly unpopular bit of communism, that), college student loans/grants, tax cuts for most folks paid for with tax raises for the wealthy....Shit, "spreading the wealth around" could be effectuated just by ending a ton of the bullshit rent-seeking that goes on in our government today which give many already wealth interests even greater advantages in bilking ordinary folks.
But no, black man says to white man, spread the wealth, must mean welfare payments from Joe the Plumber to some welfare queen.
Mike Farmer | October 17, 2008, 8:31am | #
I agree, MNG, spreading the wealth around to corporations is just as bad, or worse, than other forms of spreading people's money.It's the coercion and arrogance implied by the word "spreading" that's objectionable.
SIV | October 17, 2008, 8:54am | #
Elemenope | October 17, 2008, 2:04am | #El,
SIV:
Are you saying, and stop me if I'm getting this wrong, but are you saying there are no poor white people on Welfare?
No.Are you fucking retarded?
Does "welfare" indicate any political/racial associations that Obama has done an otherwise excellent job of avoiding? yes
BDB | October 17, 2008, 9:07am | #
Welfare? What year are you in? 1980? That one went right over my head.P Brooks | October 17, 2008, 9:34am | #
P Brooks | October 16, 2008, 11:15am | #I guess I got my answer.
It might be interesting to hear what Just Plumbin' Joe has to say about dropping the licensing requirements for plumbers.
joe | October 17, 2008, 9:52am | #
"My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody. If you’ve got a plumbing business, you’re gonna be better off if you’re gonna be better off if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you, and right now everybody’s so pinched that business is bad for everybody and I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody."Having a strong economy is now "welfare." Having more customers because the economy is doing better is now "redistribution."
Any more Newspeak you'd like to lay on us, SIV?
TallDave | October 17, 2008, 9:58am | #
Guess who else has tax liens?Obama's campaign manager!
The media has now spend more effort investigating Joe the Plumber in two weeks than they spent on Obama in two years.
Rezko, Ayers, Wright, Pfleger... nonissues. Joe the Plumber? THE PUBLIC HAS A SACRED RIGHT TO KNOW!
[Scree Name Randomized for TallDave's Protection] | October 17, 2008, 10:13am | #
It's a real pleasure to watch you lose your mind over losing this election, Dave.Shem | October 17, 2008, 11:08am | #
This would be a good starting point for a real conservative to offer some fresh insights into paying back taxes (tell the IRS to take a flying fuck)How about we give the man some advice that doesn't end in his being thrown in prison?
Denis Leary | October 17, 2008, 11:08am | #
I'm just a regular joewith a regular job
I'm your average white
suburbanite slob
I like football
and porno
and books about war.
I've got an average house
with a nice hardwood floor.
My wife and my job
My kids and my car.
My feet on the table
and a Cuban cigar.
economist | October 17, 2008, 11:22am | #
Jesse Walker,I assumed, given your other statements on taxes and licensing, that you were taking a shot at Joe's attackers, not the other way around. But someone less familiar with this publication pre-Obama might have taken it differently.
economist | October 17, 2008, 11:22am | #
Maybe if you guys hadn't put up Steve Chapman's column on underage drinking, people wouldn't jump to the same conclusions.