Barack's New Deal

Over at Powerline, there is an interesting post on how Barack Obama backtracked in his Indiana speech yesterday to counter "his elitist disparagement of ‘small town' voters" in an earlier speech in San Francisco.

In San Francisco, Obama had said: "So it's not surprising then that [when voters] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

In Indiana, he polished this, so that it came out:

People don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody is going to help them. So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. They take refuge in their faith and their community, and their family, and the things they can count on. But they don't believe they can count on Washington.

While Obama is indeed engaging in spin, there is a far more disturbing aspect to his interpretation. He misses the essential nature of modern culture. People don't end up focusing on issues like the right to bear arms, gay marriage, faith-based and family-based issues, and the like, because of bitterness against Washington or a sense that they can't effect change there. People focus on these issues because modern American political culture is, effectively, about subcultures, variety, pursuing parochial aims, and shaping one's identity and personal agendas independently of the state.  

What Obama implicitly regards (in both his statements) as signs of disintegration, as reflections of popular frustration, are in fact examples of a thriving culture. Exceptions to this, of course, are anti-immigration sentiment and bigoted protectionism, both of which Obama conveniently dropped in his Indiana comments. Yet Obama's approach betrays a very suffocating vision of the state as the be-all and end-all of political-cultural behavior. Outside the confines of the state there is no salvation, only resentment. This is nonsense, but it also partly explains why Obama is so admired among educated liberals, who still view the state as the main medium of American providence.      

Comments

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 4:54am | #

Wasn't his lack of suprise at people expressing this 'clinging' behavior because they had lost their jobs 25 years ago or some nonsense like that? When I saw the longer quote on TV it read like he was trying to tell one group that another group does not act like them because they have been out of work for a long time, or something.

I want to see the stats on just how many people in the USA have been involuntarily out of work for 25 years and how you still buy a decent gun or clothes for Church in that situation.

GunsRfun | April 12, 2008, 5:16am | #

So none of us cling to our guns because people in Washington wish to sieze them, violating a right enshrined in the constitution?

I didn't realize the vast majority of us were just waiting for the right handouts to be bought off

BoscoH | April 12, 2008, 5:21am | #

Why is everyone skipping over the hypocrisy on the trade issue? In Ohio, he wants to renegotiate NAFTA -- and simultaneously assuring Canada that he's kidding. So now, he tells his San Francisco audience that the troglodytes don't like free trade, but he does. Let's get to the core of Obama. He is a pander bear, worse than your standard issue politician. It is hard to figure out what he really believes and what he'd really do.

Anonymous | April 12, 2008, 5:24am | #

I was going to vote for him for sure if he won the nomination.

Now I may be right back to "throwing my vote away" on third parties.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 5:34am | #

Anybody wanna start taking bets on when Sen. Obama will imply that Sen. McCain was a "junkie" because he was in Vietnam? He seems to be tossing out every other fictional Leftist invictive, that one must not be far behind.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 5:39am | #

[bulb lights up]

It almost sounds like Sen. Obama has been getting his views of America from some old radicals from the 1960s and 1970s. Like he has been hanging out with folks from the Weather Underground/Students for a Democratic Society or something. Naaaa, can't be, that sould have been in the news or somethng . . .

Anon | April 12, 2008, 5:47am | #

I think Ill still take Obama over 100 years in Iraq.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 6:06am | #

Anon,

Mrs. Clinton said she wants to be in Iraq for 100 years? Wow, she must have said that late at night when she was tired. Hope it was not during one of those 0300 phone calls. Have the direct quote someplace?

Fred C. | April 12, 2008, 6:28am | #

Why is being anti-immigration a "sentiment" but being protectionist "bigoted"? Seems back-assward.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 6:41am | #

Fred C.,

Welcome to the house of mirrors in the world of the extreme. Words are really meaningless, but if they are going in the correct emotional direction, they are just fine. Maybe Sen. Obama is trying to be the Pat Buchanan of the Left?

Eagle Clan | April 12, 2008, 6:48am | #

John Mellencamp - Small Town
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eDkAG3R0h8
Vote Barack Obama 08!

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 6:57am | #

Next thing you know we will have someone like the head of The Village Voice saying that one of his Black coworkers was his human property for many years, but it's all okay because it was said at a First Amendment ceremony, or something.

Liz | April 12, 2008, 7:26am | #

I have lived in a small town on the NJ/PA border for twenty-five years. Believe me, there's bitterness to go around. But it's there in upstate NY, NH and plenty of other small town regions. They have a right to be bitter, but they do cling to their guns.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 7:31am | #

Liz,

Are you one of the folks who has been out of work for 25 years? Not seeing what all the bitterness is for/from, other than those nannystate politicians, high taxes and, maybe, not being able to save enough money to move South.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 7:35am | #

I saw a documentry on small town life a few years ago. Roadhouse showed how small towns can be ruled by evil white guys who will smash your property with a monster truck if you don't do what they tell you to do.

In comparison to Mikael Moore's documentry on Canada, Canadian Bacon, small town America looks pretty evil.

Daniel Reeves | April 12, 2008, 8:08am | #

People don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody is going to help them. So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage.

What Obama said here-- saying that people vote on social issues and not the economy (no mention of foreign policy)-- is patently false.

is patently false. Votes are influenced the most by unfavorable wars and the economy. Read this (pdf) or at least scroll down to the graph on the fourth page to understand.

It is true, however, that the president doesn't have that much control over the economy. Business cycles, the federal reserve, and the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most. And that's the problem: we elect people assuming that they're going to do a lot for the economy, and the most influence they can have over an economy is bad, not good.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 8:13am | #

the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most.

dude, it is much too early for me to drink. I will settle for lighting a cigarette with a dollar bill.

Mad Max | April 12, 2008, 8:15am | #

Of course, the people of San Francisco focus *exclusively* on economic issues. That's why their mayor refuses to waste everyone's time with divisive cultural issues like gay marriage.

Mad Max | April 12, 2008, 8:17am | #

Also, San Franciscans are too sophisticated to allow themselves to be distracted from the all-important economic issues by the emotional issue of guns.

R C Dean | April 12, 2008, 8:17am | #

People don't vote on economic issues because they don't expect anybody is going to help them.

Well, lots of people do vote for politicians who promise to line their pockets, but the disturbing thing isn't that he's wrong on the facts, its that he seems to believe government is supposed to transferring wealth.

So people end up voting on issues like guns and are they going to have the right to bear arms.

Yeah, the nerve of people. Voting on the basis of whether a politician will protect their Constitutional rights.

In Obama's mind, you should vote for someone because he will take from someone else and give to you, not because he will abide by the Constitution as written.

The Ron Paul Political Report | April 12, 2008, 8:20am | #

I have had reports from my volunteers to the attitude in the inner cities in Philadelphia. They can't stop shooting their neighbors. So it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations. It also explains why they have kids they can't afford with no regard to the financial hardships that creates, food stamps, WIC, and welfare decrease their incentive to work. Thus the need for Latino workers.

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 8:20am | #

The Whole Quote:

“When I go around and I talk to people there is frustration and there is anger and there is bitterness. And what’s worse is when people are expressing their anger then politicians try to say what are you angry about? This just happened – I want to make a point here today.

“I was in San Francisco talking to a group at a fundraiser and somebody asked how’re you going to get votes in Pennsylvania? What’s going on there? We hear that’s its hard for some working class people to get behind you’re campaign. I said, “Well look, they’re frustrated and for good reason. Because for the last 25 years they’ve seen jobs shipped overseas. They’ve seen their economies collapse. They have lost their jobs. They have lost their pensions. They have lost their healthcare.

“And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we’re going to make your community better. We’re going to make it right and nothing ever happens. And of course they’re bitter. Of course they’re frustrated. You would be too. In fact many of you are. Because the same thing has happened here in Indiana. The same thing happened across the border in Decatur. The same thing has happened all across the country. Nobody is looking out for you. Nobody is thinking about you. And so people end up- they don’t vote on economic issues because they don’t expect anybody’s going to help them. So people end up, you know, voting on issues like guns, and are they going to have the right to bear arms. They vote on issues like gay marriage. And they take refuge in their faith and their community and their families and things they can count on. But they don’t believe they can count on Washington. So I made this statement-- so, here’s what rich. Senator Clinton says ‘No, I don’t think that people are bitter in Pennsylvania. You know, I think Barack’s being condescending.’ John McCain says, ‘Oh, how could he say that? How could he say people are bitter? You know, he’s obviously out of touch with people.’

“Out of touch? Out of touch? I mean, John McCain—it took him three tries to finally figure out that the home foreclosure crisis was a problem and to come up with a plan for it, and he’s saying I’m out of touch? Senator Clinton voted for a credit card-sponsored bankruptcy bill that made it harder for people to get out of debt after taking money from the financial services companies, and she says I’m out of touch? No, I’m in touch. I know exactly what’s going on. I know what’s going on in Pennsylvania. I know what’s going on in Indiana. I know what’s going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They’re angry and they’re frustrated and they’re bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that’s why I’m running for President of the United States of America.”

Mad Max | April 12, 2008, 8:20am | #

California appellate court strikes down gun control measure approved by SF's sophisticated, rational, non-emotionally-driven voters:

http://www.ktvu.com/news/15013899/detail.html

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 9:07am | #

Ah, I misremembered the 25 years jobs thing. He has a list ov everybody's jobs that were "shipped overseas" and he is going to bring those jobs back! Why is he the only one with the bill of lading anyway? Shouldn't that list exist someplace where scholars and economists can study it?

So, what about the jobs that were shipped overseas and the person who the job was stolen from died because they could not eat any more? Is there some procedure for a next-of-kin to get that job that belonged to their ancestor?

How about those jobs that these kids just won't do? If that stolen job was family property, is it okay if these new kids working in banks and IT, etc., turn down, say, a "recovered" mill job? Maybe some illegal immigrants can do those jobs when Sen. Obama brings them back in a truck and sorts them out on the job warehouse floor?

Dude, this guy is deep. The more he talks the more questions I have.

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 9:07am | #

FWIW, I think there is something to the idea that many people are cynical about government (for non-ideological reasons; Libertarians are *professionally* cynical about government, and so they don't count) because of political anomia, economic frustrations, etc., and many people do start voting according to cultural or racial clades, focusing upon desired social values when prosperity slips out of reach.

You guys don't think people are bitter and that bitterness doesn't play a role in how people vote?

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 9:16am | #

E,

Um, more like people make all sorts of irrational emotional choices when they are deciding who they are voting for and it is not limited to folks in small towns, nor is it limited to "bitterness".

Mark | April 12, 2008, 9:18am | #

While it's true that there's a lot of racism/homophobia/nativism, etc. in those areas of the country, to claim that this is the result of people distrusting government is absolutely silly. If people distrusted government, the last two people they would support would be Hillary Clinton and John McCain. Especially Hillary Clinton, who not only is an even bigger believer in government than Obama, but also happens to be married to the man whose government allegedly failed these voters.

john doe | April 12, 2008, 9:28am | #

I do wish people addressing immigration would acknowledge that there is a difference between being anti-immigration and anti-illegal immigration. It's getting old.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 9:30am | #

I think I solved the bitterness puzzle.

Those folks in the rust belt are pissed off that some guy from Chicago has been holding their stolen jobs hostage until they vote for him. As a United States Senator he could have restored these jobs that were shipped overseas, ore even pressed for reperations to the people whose jobs were taken, packed and shipped to India. BUT, he did not do anything about it and won't until his coronation, as long as everybody stays in line.

Yea, if my $50/hour (after union dues) machine shop job were packed up and shipped away I would be pissed too.

dilemma | April 12, 2008, 9:34am | #

The Powerline precisely frames the dynamic of the fatal flaw in Obama's inital comment and follow-up. The suredness of his analysis trumps all others view of the world. It IS condescending and he does not still realize why. How tone deaf, and he want's to be a uniter of these poor bitter folks?

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 9:38am | #

john doe,

If you are looking for that distinction you might want to check The National Review online. Here at Reason/The Nation/Slate/The New Republic/the World Socialist Web Site , immigration is immigration and if you are against any restrictions on it, then you, Sir, ar a racist.

No, that is not my view, I actually agree with you, but don't expect the editors here to change their view.

MK2 | April 12, 2008, 9:39am | #

"Outside the confines of the state there is no salvation, only resentment. This is nonsense..."

It's also a fucking straw man. Like the fundamentalist you are, you twist everything to fit your cherished dogma. Recognizing that the state has a role to play in providing the economic stability that is a neccesary condition for the pursuit of private aims is not at all the same as saying there is no salvation outside the state.
The problem with building a movement on anything as inexact and arguable as economics is that you end up a mindless dogmatic--like a marxist or a libertarian.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 9:40am | #

dilemma,

If we were not evil racist corporatist tools we would realize what a uniter Sen. Obama is.

anono | April 12, 2008, 9:42am | #

Guy Montag, how many cups of coffee did you have this morning?

SIV | April 12, 2008, 9:46am | #

Does Obama intend to require the PA yokels to denounce Jesus when they turn in their guns for a Government job?

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 9:52am | #

anono,

2 pints, whatever that works out to. On my way out for some breakfast and a Starbucks mocha.

I think the biggest effect is that phentinal finally wearing all the way off (I think), and that other stuff that starts with a V, from Thursday morning.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 9:54am | #

SIV,

Shush! That is part of the secret plans that will have to be worked out later, like pulling out of Iraq in a month.

Episiarch | April 12, 2008, 9:58am | #

No, I’m in touch. I know exactly what’s going on. I know what’s going on in Pennsylvania. I know what’s going on in Indiana. I know what’s going on in Illinois. People are fed-up. They’re angry and they’re frustrated and they’re bitter. And they want to see a change in Washington and that’s why I’m running for President of the United States of America.

Does anyone besides me find this hilarious? That he would even say that he "knows"? I can't tell yet if he's Jesus, Dr. Who, or a Cylon. We don't know who the twelfth model is yet, people--it could be him.

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 10:01am | #

Does Obama intend to require the PA yokels to denounce Jesus when they turn in their guns for a Government job?

My favorite part is how there are real, actual Americans who believe this is what it would be like.

Oh, you weren't kidding, were you, SIV. How awkward.

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 10:03am | #

I can't tell yet if he's Jesus, Dr. Who, or a Cylon.

There is only one candidate in this race who is clearly a Cylon, and that's McCain. I mean, how else did he get his eye back?

Colin | April 12, 2008, 10:05am | #

"I think Ill still take Obama over 100 years in Iraq."

You'll get Obama and a hundred years in Iraq. And you'll like it.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 10:10am | #

Does anyone besides me find this hilarious?

Yes.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 10:11am | #

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 8:13am | #

the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most.

dude, it is much too early for me to drink. I will settle for lighting a cigarette with a dollar bill.

Guy, that was blatantly dishonest. Let's roll the tape -

It is true, however, that the president doesn't have that much control over the economy. Business cycles, the federal reserve, and the actions of the corporate elites control the economy the most.

The above statement is not a leftist anticorporate whine, it is arguably contains a good bit of economic truth.

Don't ever let me see you complain about an out of context quote. I'll throw this in your face.

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 10:12am | #

Enough of this, where is the weekend thread? Or is it three threads back and I missed it with my random, mindless scrolling?

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 10:16am | #

JsD,

It contained a decent bit of truth until he got to the Leftist whine at the end. And, no I do not normally drink alcohol before noon but today I might make an exception.

Thinking red wine might go well with a Mexican omlet.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 10:17am | #

Enough of this, where is the weekend thread? Or is it three threads back and I missed it with my random, mindless scrolling?

I hereby, on my own authority, declare this to be the weekend political thread.

As the late, great, Admiral Grace Hopper once noted "It is easier to get forgiveness that to get permission."

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 10:19am | #

JsD,

Her park is right down the road from me, but they do not mention that she was an Admiral on her sign.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 10:25am | #

Are you saying that the actions of the corporate elite don't have a large effect on the economy?

Bear Stearns? ↓
WalMart? ↑
Enron? ↓
Google? ↑

SIV | April 12, 2008, 10:25am | #

LMNOP,


My favorite part is how there are real, actual Americans who believe this is what it would be like.

Yes there are. The well-heeled donors at the san francisco fundraiser where Obama made the original remarks.

I don't believe it--the government can't create that many jobs! The patronage woudn't go to rural PA caucasian working class people if he could

P Brooks | April 12, 2008, 10:27am | #

Or is it three threads back and I missed it with my random, mindless sctrolling?

Sorry, guy; that just leapt out at me, and I had to see it on the screen.
You're doing fine, although I did think the "coffee" question was right on the money.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 10:28am | #

Her park is right down the road from me, but they do not mention that she was an Admiral on her sign.

You are f*ing kidding me?
That is an outrage. Call the parks commisioner and verbally slap him around for a while. All of her pioneering work in computer science was done as a naval officer.

Mega-Sheesh.

P Brooks | April 12, 2008, 10:42am | #

Oops- sorry about the small "G."

And as for the topic at hand, I'm thinking of the old adage, "When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

Obama is a Senator; of course he sees himself as the saviour of the (ignorant, pathetic, feckless) little guy, and that salvation can only come through government intervention in the economy.

Thinking back to the thread about Michelle O and her comments bout their totally random, accidental successes in life, I cannot help wondering if he would ever admit to writing his book out of purely pecuniary motives. I mean, just because *he* can raise his sights above the daily grind and find a way to improve his situation, that doesn't mean a bunch of embittered honkeys can (barring the benficent ministrations of their betters in the government).

P Brooks | April 12, 2008, 10:49am | #

It's a good thing I never give anybody grief about not proofreading what they post.

stupid keyboard

MK2 | April 12, 2008, 10:54am | #

P Brooks

An economy free of government intervention is a complete unknown. You've never lived in one, and neither have I.

charlie | April 12, 2008, 11:13am | #

I stopped reading at "Over at Powerline, there is an interesting post..."

Ron | April 12, 2008, 11:19am | #

I would like to know what is wrong with outspending someone during an election. Obviously Obama knows how to run a campaign. It takes a lot of money to counter the Clinton machine. Most people would have been swallowed by now ... just ask Monica .That is all I ever hear. He out spent us ... he out spent us. What is he supposed to do with his money , put it in an IRA? After the new polls come out, Obama is going to be ahead by a few points. Hillary made a huge mistake by pouncing on Obama for his "bitter "remark because the voters are pretty smart. All she had to do was sympathize with the voters, even if she had to pretend. She would have locked up the Pennsylvania vote. If Obama would have apologized, he would have lost my vote. He spoke the truth.If only people could read, they would know exactly what he meant..... Both Clinton and Mcain have skirted around this issue, but didn't have the B-A-L-L-S to say it. I can see Clinton jumping on this because she is desperate, but McCain, he must have alzheimers, because he forgets what he stood for last week.

Mr. Nice Guy | April 12, 2008, 11:27am | #

Doesn't the anti-gay marriage and the anti-immigrant sentiments and movements that Obama says people turn to when the state fails to help them (whether it can or not) economically also related to state action? I mean, the movement is for the feds to bar any state from recognizing gay marriage and for the feds to take an active role in stopping and rounding up immigrants. So I'm not sure what Young is getting at when he says that these two movements are healthy manifestations of non-governmental subcultural issues. WTF? Can't he stick to crazy analysis of foriegn policy? If those two movements were indeed non-state related subucultural issues they would involve people simply voluntarily choosing to not live around gays or immigrants. But they ain't they are not...

Mr. Nice Guy | April 12, 2008, 11:28am | #

"But they ain't and they are not"

Mr. Nice Guy | April 12, 2008, 11:31am | #

BTW-I hear a fair amount here on H&R about why the average American opposes immigration and trade so much, and a lot of it paints the public as a fair bit more misdirected and mistaken as Obama's quote does...

MK2 | April 12, 2008, 11:40am | #

Let's stop the bickering and pause for a prayer.

Hail Market,
Full of grace,
Prosperity is with thee.
Blessed art thou among systems,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Capital.
Holy Market,
Mother of Goods,
pray for us consumers now,
and at the hour of our bankruptcy.
Amen.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 11:42am | #

stupid keyboard

Tt is a poor workman who blames his tools. ;-)

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 11:43am | #

It, not Tt!

stupid fingers.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 11:52am | #

Re: MK2 | April 12, 2008, 11:40am

♫Hes a one trick pony
He either fails or he succeeds
He gives his testimony
Then he relaxes in the weeds
Hes got one trick to last a lifetime
But thats all a pony needs♫

Trolls require more.

Peder | April 12, 2008, 11:56am | #

JsD,
MK2 must have given in to the bitterness if it's come to prayer.

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 11:58am | #

It is a poor workman who blames his tools.

Unless his tools are really shitty. :)

MK2 | April 12, 2008, 11:59am | #

Market fundamentalists of the world unite! You have nothing to lose because you'll never win.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 12:02pm | #

Once again this shows how out of touch liberal Barack Obama is with the real heartland of America is.

Like his extremist liberal wife, he may play well with the New England-San Francisco-Chicago-Harvard-Yale elitist crowd, but out in the real world of Pennsylvania hes going to get trounced by the white working class voters he just threw under the bus as fast as he did his grandma.

I hope the Democrat Party nominates him, because between this and his extremist race-bating reverend Allahamba O'Govern will be lucky to win 50 electoral votes.

P Brooks | April 12, 2008, 12:05pm | #

Unless his tools are really shitty.

Hey! I used my smoothest rock, and my sharpest stick, to make that.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 12:12pm | #

I also love how the leftist liberal Democrat Party can't decide on which affirmative action victim-pimping group to reward.

P Brooks | April 12, 2008, 12:20pm | #

“It’s being reported that my opponent said that the people of Pennsylvania who faced hard times are bitter; well, that’s not my experience,” Mrs. Clinton told an audience at Drexel University. “Pennsylvanians don’t need a president who looks down on them; they need a president who stands up for them, who fights for them, who works hard for your futures, your jobs, your families.”

-Hillary

She's different. She wants to fight for their futures. Because they would be helpless without her.

Fritz | April 12, 2008, 12:21pm | #

It strikes me now that a President Obama will probably be the Democrats' Reagan: someone who goes out and speaks inspiring rhetoric (taylor-made for the recipient audience, of course), but leaves the policywork to his underlings.

Orange Line Special | April 12, 2008, 12:22pm | #

Michael Young:

Thanks for the laugh! Included in your examples of a "thriving" culture is IdentityPolitics, CorporatePluralism, and the like.

As for the part of BHO's original statement involving trade and imm., you are, needless to say, wrong: Obama was being misleading.

Reason Magazine, Where Every Day is OppositeDay!

Mo | April 12, 2008, 12:23pm | #

I don't get why people are getting a hair up their asses about the religion part. It's pretty common knowledge that people become more religious during trying times. Alcoholics Anonymous is built on this theory.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 12:24pm | #

Fritz Reagan was a real American who understood the heartland and didn't look down on it from some Harvard ivory tower like Obama. Obama is just a liberal San Francisco-Chicago-Harvard big city elite, Reagan was a real American.

psyclone | April 12, 2008, 12:24pm | #

People didn't vote for Bush because they thought he was competent - they voted for him because he represented their world view - albeit a third grade world view. The same holds true for the current slate.

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 12:30pm | #

Because they would be helpless without her.

Since he was a former community activist and organizer, I have a really hard time believing that Obama thinks people are helpless without government. For that matter, I doubt somehow that Hillary believes it either.

More likely, he believes what most liberals believe: that government is the only force powerful enough to countervail other powerful and sometimes hostile forces in people's lives, and unlike most of those other forces, people actually have a say in their own government.

Now, one may say (with a great deal of warrant) that this view is naive in that it fails to take into account just how badly government may go sometimes, is overly optimistic in predicting the effectiveness or efficiency of regulation, and is sometimes counterproductive in that it causes a whole host of unintended consequences.

It is not usually predicated on condescension and/or pity, and so it is obnoxious to continue to set up this straw man.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 12:33pm | #

Elemenope you're wrong liberal Democrats think people who didn't go to the big ivy leagues or live in the big city are stupid hicks who need to be "educated" into the liberal Democrat world view.

They think you're stupid. They think SUVs are stupid. They think supporting the troops is stupid. They think owning a gun is stupid. They think going to church twice a week is stupid. They think flying the flag on the 4th of July is stupid. They think unless you live in a handful of big cities and have a high-dollar liberal arts education you're stupid.

They don't like America.

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 12:41pm | #

"They" talk a lot, don't they, Neil.

I think it was Nietzsche who first pointed out that for every detractor of a party or movement, the most effective was the true believer who was a fucking idiot. That person's sole purpose in life was to serve you as a reminder of just why you don't belong to that group.

sage | April 12, 2008, 12:44pm | #

-Hillary

She's different. She wants to fight for their futures.

She can crawl up my ass and fight for air. Hugo Chavez in a pant-suit.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 12:46pm | #

Way to be an elitist Elemenope. No wonder you defend Allahamba.

Why don't you accuse me of "clinging" to guns and religion next?

alan | April 12, 2008, 12:46pm | #

Word from inside the campaign has it that Obama is actually an excellent bowler but he made the political calculation that the small town proles would be more forgiving of a bad performance than his San Fransisco supporters would be forgiving of a good one.

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 12:47pm | #

alan, ROFL!

Neil | April 12, 2008, 12:52pm | #

How can you seriously defend a guy who wouldn't even put his hand on his heart during the national anthem? Isn't that just a little weird and un-American?

LT Nixon | April 12, 2008, 12:52pm | #

Why do we always want to line up to take our pills from Nurse Ratched. How sad has America become.

P Brooks | April 12, 2008, 12:52pm | #

More likely, he believes what most liberals believe: that government is the only force powerful enough to countervail other powerful and sometimes hostile forces in people's lives

And in what way does this refute my (admittedly simplified) assertion that these self-described liberals believe the little guy desperately needs their help?

In the long version of Obama's statement (quoted earlier by you), is this:

And for 25, 30 years Democrats and Republicans have come before them and said we’re going to make your community better. We’re going to make it right and nothing ever happens.

That sounds to me like he's saying, "I won't let you down, like those other guys; *this time* you shall be saved. By me."

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 1:01pm | #

It is not usually predicated on condescension and/or pity, and so it is obnoxious to continue to set up this straw man.

I'm going to argue that leftist political thinking is often predicated on condescension towards the average American. Particularly towards the average red voting American. I'm not saying they are wrong in that belief. I believe tha average republican voter is a moron. This is somewhat counterbalanced by my firm conviction that the average democrat voter is of sub normal intelligence as well.

The snide comments from the left about Reagan and GW Bush's lack of intelligence are too numerous to bring up. The Alzheimers jokes about McCain have already started and will be coming to a screen near you before November. The right's disingenuous disparaging the patriotism of those on the left side of the spectrum is equally prevalent and odious.

It is not just boilerplate, these folks really believe the crap they are spouting. Sad, but true.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 1:04pm | #

While I was composing my previouss post, Neil was buttressing one of my points about the right.
Thanks Neil!

Neil | April 12, 2008, 1:07pm | #

You don't think its just a little bit STRANGE that Obama had his hand down by his side instead of over his heart during the national anthem J sub D?

Allahamba probably thinks you're just an idiot who "clings" to guns and religion. The bottom line is the liberal Democrat Party doesn't understand our culture, only San Francisco-Manhattan-Malibu culture.

alan | April 12, 2008, 1:09pm | #

Of course there is truth in what Obama said. I recall a recent conversation I had with a transplant friend from upper state New York (and thank God for them, Northern women find me more attractive than Southern ones for some reason) talking about how girls from stable working class families with whom he went to high school taking up working for escort services in Canadian cities after the rust belt bust.

However, there is the assumption in Obama's rhetoric that smacks of old Marxist rhetoric concerning false consciousness that if the proles could see their economic interest for what it is they would not be distracted by Kulturkamf. If they recognized their economic interest they would throw out their entrenched political elites whose pro union, anti corporate policies make their localities unattractive for economic growth.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 1:10pm | #

I'm retired military, Neil. I don't get my tits in a flutter over meaningless symbolism. I guess that means I'm unpatriotic as well.

Ayn_Randian | April 12, 2008, 1:12pm | #

Neil - we don't care about archaic shows of pseudo-patriotism. Both Team Blue and Team Red (that's your side, asshole) have shown themselves patently incapable and unwilling to respect and follow The Supreme Law of the Land. That's unpatriotic.

J sub - so the left makes hay out of how dumb the right is, the right shoots back with how dumb the left is, and libertarians are just misanthropic?

We really need a more positive outlook. I don't think people are dumb so much as relatively misguided (albeit reasonable and intelligent, for the most part)

P Brooks | April 12, 2008, 1:12pm | #

I'm deeply thankful for a President who holds his hand over his heart as the National Anthem is played; even as he is busily wiping his ass with the Constitution, with the other one.

It's the single most important thing.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 1:13pm | #

Well what do you think about his wife and her leftist academic racial hustling at Yale? The rumor is, her parents were Comsymp fellow travelers, or even party members.

Mad Max | April 12, 2008, 1:15pm | #

Sen. Obama's position seems like an example of the "waste of time" theory of "cultural issues" - the idea that the important political questions are economic (in the narrow sense), and therefore anyone who focuses on other issues - issues which are not directly economic - is wasting time and diverting his focus and attention from the true, economic issues. In this particular case, Sen. Obama is spinning this that the people haven't been offered real economic solutions, so they've been forced to wank off with the cultural issues - use them as a security blanket because there haven't been enough statesmen like Obama to show revive their faith in economic interventionism.

I wonder if the Senator is willing to apply his principles consistently. If he truly believes that God, guns and gays [to take a sample of purportedly non-economic issues] are distractions from real issues, then that would seem to apply regardless of a person's position on the three Gs. In other words, if God-guns-gays are timewasting issues, then they're a waste of time for *everyone* who focuses on them, whether they're in the NRA or the Brady Campaign, the Christian Coalition or the Gay Rights Campaign.

I would love to see Sen. Obama try and play out this idea - maybe have a Sister Souljah moment or two with traditional Democratic constituencies.

"Sen. Barack Obama today, in a speech before Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, urged his audience to 'focus on the real issues.' The Senator said: 'why are you spending so much time worrying about religious monuments in courthouse squares when the Republicans are trying to steal your Grandpa's pension?'

"In another speech, in front of the Coalition for Victim Disarmament, derided the 'excessive focus' on gun control. 'Gun control isn't important,' said Obama. 'What's important is that I have a plan to save your grandma from being thrown out into the snow - or what *would* be snow if it wasn't for that darn global warming.'

"In a third speech, Obama told the San Francisco Gay Club that 'it's time you stopped worrying about gay rights. Who cares? Never mind what I think about gay rights, the important thing is that I have a wonderful plan to save your jobs."

I wonder how that would go over? I wonder if those Deep Thinkers who don't want people to be distracted by cultural issues would support Obama on that one?

Mo | April 12, 2008, 1:16pm | #

Neil,
Judging by conservative reaction to the Harriet Meiers nomination and her educational background, the conservative elite thinks the same thing. They pretend they don't believe it in order to get votes. Heck, look how they responded to the Huckabee nomination. And how is hating on the urban and liberal centers any different than doing the same for the heartland. You seem to hate America just as much, just a different part.

As for the national anthem thing:

Modern custom does not require a hand over the heart, said Anne Garside, director of communication for the Maryland Historical Society, home of the original manuscript of the Star-Spangled Banner. “I think the bottom line is that you show respect with your demeanor,” she said. “Whether you put your hand over your heart, hold your hat at shoulder level or waist level, is really in this day and age irrelevant.”

I'm more concerned over someone who bases their voting decision on something like this. It's not like he was cracking jokes and making fart noises during the anthem.

Personally, I hate SUVs and think they're dumb in an urban/suburban environment, but I don't give a shit what you do if you don't drive like a moron (which isn't a given). However, it's my right as an American to believe what I want and I won't stop you from doing what you want.

Mad Max | April 12, 2008, 1:16pm | #

"Well what do you think about his wife and her leftist academic racial hustling at Yale? The rumor is, her parents were Comsymp fellow travelers, or even party members."

Neil, please stop, you're going to turn me into a Democrat.

alan | April 12, 2008, 1:21pm | #

First of all, I don't vote for a candidate based on whom his misguided heart fell in love with at one time. I have been a sucker for love, too.

I do recognize that our current system gives wives some power, I want all funding cut for first ladies and the wives of Vice Presidents as well. It is crazy we accept this publicly financed arrangement. It isn't suppose to be a serial monarchy, after all.

Last of all, I don't like her. I can see where right wing rhetoric about her may prove to be effective because she is easily reduced to a cartoon figure of the uppity, ingrate diva by her own mouth. I have no problem with Obama on the basis of his public persona, I even find him likable.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 1:23pm | #

You guys can dismiss these issues if you want (you probably live in blue states anyway) but down in the heartland they are going to sink Obama. Just watch it, hes going to be the next McGovern/Dukakis who can't connect to real Americans because of his elitist, globalist background.

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 1:24pm | #

["waste of time theory"], I wonder if the Senator is willing to apply his principles consistently.

If he did, it would be a red letter day in American politics.

Of course, he also has to win an election, so I doubt somehow that he's going to say that *everyone's* pet peeve issues are pointless.

I suppose we could hope, though. I hear he's big on that.

Ayn_Randian | April 12, 2008, 1:27pm | #

Neil - who are you supporting for the Presidency? McCain "The Patriot" who stepped all over the First Amendment?

Mo | April 12, 2008, 1:27pm | #

Max,
Don't blame him, he's just regurgitating something he read in the Corner. Be careful, it's vile stuff. Of course, Schiffren is Dan Quayle's former speechwriter, which says it all.

Kolohe | April 12, 2008, 1:28pm | #

They think unless you live in a handful of big cities and have a high-dollar liberal arts education you're stupid.

Neil, FWIW, I have a public university engineering education and live in the 54th largest metro area, and I also think you're an idiot.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 1:31pm | #

Ayn Randian McCain isn't perfect (I would've preferred Romney and then Huckabee) but hes a hundered times better than Obama.

He gets the important issues right--trade, the economy, taxes, the Global War on Terror, gun rights, abortion. I agree with him 80% of the time and so do most Americans. This is a center-right nation and people aren't going to vote for some globalist with a comsymp background and a race-hustling wife who wants to cut and run from the jihadists.

alan | April 12, 2008, 1:32pm | #

You guys can dismiss these issues if you want (you probably live in blue states anyway) but down in the heartland they are going to sink Obama.

It doesn't matter if he loses the blue states so long as he gets the red and purple ones.

I'm a Tarheel, btw.

Jay McDonough | April 12, 2008, 1:33pm | #

from swimming freestyle:

"This video is exactly how Obama should have raised the issue: In the environment these voters live and with an appropriate anger. Rural working class voters have gotten the shaft. They have every right to be frustrated and even bitter about what's happened to them.

Obama now finds himself having to address the issue defensively, Unfortunately, the issue will now likely be obscured by the hysterical anti-Obama rants by the Clintons and McCains. Obama gave them that gift when he spoke in San Francisco last weekend."

http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com

PapayaSF | April 12, 2008, 1:33pm | #

Since he was a former community activist and organizer, I have a really hard time believing that Obama thinks people are helpless without government.

You do understand that most leftist "community organizing" consists of organizing people to demand things from the government? They're not usually planting little vegetable gardens or babysitting each other's kids.

Face it, this comment is Obama's mask slipping again. He's a condescending crypto-Marxist who believes that rural whites exist in false consciousness, "clinging" to religion and guns and racism because they don't understand that the cause of all their problems are the big bad corporations. But don't worry, Obama will come and increase taxes and subsidies and regulations until everyone has a good job with nice benefits.

Warty | April 12, 2008, 1:34pm | #

comment by MK2

What? I can't hear you. Speak up!

pinko | April 12, 2008, 1:34pm | #

"They don't like America."

Hey Neil,
Liberal here. Not so much. They just don't like your retarded version of America.
Tell me wise one, which meangingless version of kissing the king's ring will get you to shut it? A plastic magnet on the bumper? A full-throated chorus of God Bless America?

You are a giant douche, a walking, talking confirmation of just about every stereotype my team has ever been guilty of perpetuating. Keep up the work.

Ayn_Randian | April 12, 2008, 1:35pm | #

you know, as a side note, when I was in Iraq we were told to drop the "Global" from the "Global War on Terror."

To claim that the campaign against those who attacked us on 9/11 should have gone to Iraq is NOT getting the GWOT "right". Also, Neil, I'll note your boy is enamored with the "green" movement. How conservative of him.

P Brooks | April 12, 2008, 1:37pm | #

You guys can dismiss these issues if you want (you probably live in blue states anyway) but down in the heartland they are going to sink Obama.

Yeah, everybody I know wanted to lynch the guy when he came to Montana.

Episiarch | April 12, 2008, 1:39pm | #

Neil, does belonging to Team Red make you feel all warm and tingly? That you know who your enemies are (Team Blue)?

Thinking hard. Me join team, not need think.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 1:40pm | #

Ayn Randian he got the war right when he went against the Rumsfeld strategy and supported the Surge which is now working beautifully. He's been right from the beginning, striking the right course between Rumsfeldian failure/incompetence and liberal cut-and-running.

As for the environmentalist crap, hes just throwing a bone to them so we don't get something worse.


Pinko, How about you leave my guns, peoples religion, and their patriotism alone, how bout that? How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort? How about you see the threat of Islamofascism for what it is? That would be a start. "Pinko" is an appropriate name for you, btw, because you seem to be a Socialist.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 1:43pm | #

J sub - so the left makes hay out of how dumb the right is, the right shoots back with how dumb the left is, and libertarians are just misanthropic?

We really need a more positive outlook. I don't think people are dumb so much as relatively misguided (albeit reasonable and intelligent, for the most part)

I only claim to speak for myself. Depending on the mood I'm in, my opinion of humanity changes quite substantially. I will never, be accused of over estimating my fellow humans intelligence. I really don't consider myself an elitest, as I've met many smarter than myself. But I do consider myself a realist, and I have met Scads, tonnes, oodles and gazillions of people less intelligent.

Not less human. Not less valuable. Not less kind, important, or good. Just less intelligent.
Shaq can realize that most people are shorter and weaker without being elitist. Why can't intelligent people do the same?

Episiarch | April 12, 2008, 1:43pm | #

How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort?

Why? Maybe he could respect the Constitution first. Do you automatically respect authority figures? That seems like bad policy to me. Would you respect Hillary if she became Prez?

alan | April 12, 2008, 1:45pm | #

How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort?

I don't have a commander in chief because I a citizen, a civilian, and most importantly, a free man. I find your sentiment their repugnant and anti-American.

You started it by trashing Blue states, so what the fuck are you getting defensive about, you sanctimonious jackass?

alan | April 12, 2008, 1:50pm | #

Did you show Bill Clinton the same respect?

Did you know the late, great Republican Senator Robert Taft questioned the motives of FDR in WW2?

Robot citizens make for good Soviets but make piss poor Americans.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 1:53pm | #

"Did you show Bill Clinton the same respect?"

In fact I did when he went into Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo. Also when he bombed Al Qaeda after they bombed our embassies. In matter of foreign policy I will ALWAYS show our President respect,and you should too (politics stops at the water's edge).

Yes, if Hillary became President I'd show her respect in foreign policy and actually believe shes not too bad in that area and would keep America safe. Its her socialist tendencies at home I don't like. But I believe she wants to keep this country safe.

I'm NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean.

alan | April 12, 2008, 1:58pm | #

So was candidate George W. Bush wrong in criticizing Clinton's activism by promising a more humble foreign policy (I recall it getting the Weekly Standard dopes panties all in a twitter at the time)?

Mad Max | April 12, 2008, 1:58pm | #

"I'm NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean."

I have in my hand - oops, not that hand, the other one - I have in my hand a list of known Communist operatives who are currently directing policy in the Barack Hussein al Mahdi Obama Presidential campaign.

Wake Up, People - America Is In Danger!

Kolohe | April 12, 2008, 1:59pm | #

who can't connect to real Americans because of his elitist, globalist background.

Neil, let's roll the tape:
Bush II - Yale/Harvard, Oil industry exec, Professional sports team owner
Clinton - Yale, Rhodes Scholar
Bush I - CIA Head, heir of New England blue bloods.
Reagan - Hollywood Actor
Carter - 1st president born in a hospital, Naval Officer
Ford - quarter century in US congress
Nixon - big city lawyer
Johnson - another life long senator
Kennedy - another Harvard, New England blue blood
Ike - won ww2

Yep, no elitist, globalist background in any dudes lately. (The streak does end with Truman)

And your boys: McCain, son and grandson of naval officers? Romney, son of a governor and himself CEO of hedge fund? These guys define global elitists (NTTAWTT).

I give you credit for your boy Huckabee however; he does in fact not have a single iota of the globalist elitist background. But that's because he is, in the words of another, a ignorant hillbilly wackjob preacher. Over this give me global elitism any day of the week (and twice on Sunday.)

Ayn_Randian | April 12, 2008, 2:01pm | #

Its her socialist tendencies at home I don't like.

right...as opposed to the Republican tendency to buy votes on credit, to the tune of a 9 trillion dollar deficit and a trillion-dollar war. Is it any wonder the dollar sunk, given our current tendency for our government to treat the American people as a credit cow to curry favor?

As for this "respect the CIC thing":

- My oath talks about the Constitution first.
- You're not a Servicemember, you don't HAVE a Commander in Chief.
- You're nationalistic militarism is really embarrassing. I fight for the Republic, not for one man.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 2:01pm | #

In matter of foreign policy I will ALWAYS show our President respect,and you should too (politics stops at the water's edge).

Why am I suddenly thinking about Napolean Bonaparte?
Neil, you witless baboon, in our nation's history our government has engaged in immoral as well as stupid foreign policies and wars. Why would a "patriotic" American "respect" the perpetrator of these fuckups?

Mo | April 12, 2008, 2:01pm | #

I'm NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean.

Can someone explain the logic of this to me. If someone wanted to bring down the US from the inside, running for president is the worst fucking idea in the world. The key to being a double agent is people not paying attention to you. The only thing that gets more attention than a presidential candidate is Paris Hilton's cooter. If he wanted to bring down the US from the inside, he could do it from other positions a lot easier and with greater certainty, since winning the presidency is hardly a given.

Mo | April 12, 2008, 2:04pm | #

Carter - 1st president born in a hospital, Naval Officer

Where were the rest born?

Episiarch | April 12, 2008, 2:05pm | #

I'm NOT sure Obama has the best interests of America at heart, though, if you know what I mean.

Obama is the Manchurian Candidate? Who is Angela Landsbury, then? His white racist grandma?

alan | April 12, 2008, 2:05pm | #

and talking about Communist sympathizers. Care to check Norm the Pod's background, Neil? I understand Bush and Cheney have him up for visits from time to time.

Check out that 2nd inaugural address Bush gave where at the heart of Bush's expansionist rhetoric is a quote from a Communist.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 2:06pm | #

Ayn Randian the debt isn't a big deal, neither is the cost of the war. As a percentage of our GDP its a drop in the bucket! As long as we keep growing our GDP, thereby keeping the debt down as a % of the GDP, we can easily afford a large debt. Its not a big deal, and not nearly as destructive as liberal tax hikes.

hittin' 'n'runnin' | April 12, 2008, 2:06pm | #

"I didn't realize the vast majority of us were just waiting for the right handouts to be bought off"

Well, then, you're just dumb.

The candidate who promises free doctor's visits, a cure for cancer at no cost and cheap gas, cheap houses with mortgages at 3pc, and comfortable lifetime pensions at 50 while at the same time promising that he'll (or she'll - listen Hitlery) stop the homos from buttfucking eachother is a shoein to become president.

Mencken had a thing or two to say about the intelligence of the American voter.

Do you really think that at the bottom the average American joe is different from your average frenchie who loves his government because it's pretended to give him all of the above.

Mad Max | April 12, 2008, 2:06pm | #

While Barack Hussein abu Jihad al-Obama sips Chardonnay in the faculty lounge at Harvard, or quaffs a cappuccino in some overpriced Brooklyn coffee shop, plain ordinary Americans in the heartland are getting fed up. Fed up, I say! Fed up with the limpwristed liberal defeatists who scoff at the threat of Islamofascistdoodyheadism which threatens to drown America while liberal professors who can't park a bicycle straight laugh up their sleeves at hard-working ordinary blue-collar salt-of-the-earth Americans who . . .

Oh, look at the time! I'm late for my wife's Lamaze class.

alan | April 12, 2008, 2:11pm | #

Why would I shoe respect for a president who quotes and sips Chardonnay with Communist, Neil? My pappy put those fuckers in the ground to keep us free, and there your man is dining with them.

alan | April 12, 2008, 2:13pm | #

shoe

Freudian slip. As in shoe up his pasty Constitution hatin' ass.

Kolohe | April 12, 2008, 2:14pm | #

Where were the rest born?

I'm guessing in their (parents') homes, the same as just about everyone for the first 8000 years (more or less) of human civilization up until 1920CE or so.

Ali | April 12, 2008, 2:25pm | #

Carter - 1st president born in a hospital, Naval Officer

Born in a hospital? That elitist!

pinko | April 12, 2008, 2:26pm | #

"How about you leave my guns, peoples religion, and their patriotism alone, how bout that?

Check. I was singling you out for being a total fuckwit.
"How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him and undermining our war effort?"

I didn't do that. I'm not in the military. And...did I already point out that you are a drooling mouthbreather?
"How about you see the threat of Islamofascism for what it is?"
Yeah, a nuisance that calls for (get ready for it, cover up your codpiece) GLOBAL police work.

"That would be a start."
Really, you'd shut your chawhole if I just did this much.

"Pinko" is an appropriate name for you, btw, because you seem to be a Socialist."
Precisely, genius...it gets a rise out of fuckwits like you who still have a coldwar hangover and wake up sweating thinking oh noes teh commies.

B.P. | April 12, 2008, 2:29pm | #

1. Please just ignore Neil.

2. Isn't Obama just reading out of that book "What's the Matter with Kansas"?

hittin' 'n'runnin' | April 12, 2008, 2:33pm | #

"How about you RESPECT our Commander-in-Chief instead of mocking him..."

Holy fucking shit. Is this guy for fucking real?

Ayn_Randian | April 12, 2008, 2:35pm | #

In matter of foreign policy I will ALWAYS show our President respect,and you should too (politics stops at the water's edge).

Upon reflection, I realized how really dumb this is:

1. We're not at the water's edge, we're in America, criticizing our government's foreign policy
2. The "politics stops at the water's edge" is supposed to be an admonition that you don't speak ill of Americans and American policy to foreign countries or nationals. That is, Bush can bash Obama (or vice-versa), but if they're together at NATO, then they stand together.

It has absolutely nothing to do with worshiping the President in all times and in all places with respect to foreign policy. I suppose that Alexander Hamilton was being unpatriotic when he said that TJ had "a womanish attachment to France and a womanish resentment of Great Britain."?? Yeah, damn him and his traitorous ways!

Ayn_Randian | April 12, 2008, 2:42pm | #

1. Please just ignore Neil.

I would, but if we never engage the dumb ones, well, how are we going to see any progress?

Ali | April 12, 2008, 2:42pm | #

"Pinko" is an appropriate name for you, btw, because you seem to be a Socialist.

I think "purple" is the new socialist.

Neil-

You should may be consider watching this 3-part film. It is an eye-(and-brain-)opener.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 2:42pm | #

1. Please just ignore Neil.

B.P. You don't understand. Neil serves a valuable purpose around here. He is rapidly becoming the H&R equivalent of a punching bag. Get a little light practice in without any danger of being hit back.

Other Matt | April 12, 2008, 2:44pm | #

Holy fucking shit. Is this guy for fucking real?

No.

Hey, dontcha all know it's against some rule somplace to toss out disparaging remarks about Obamamama before joe gets up in the morn?

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 2:48pm | #

Thinking hard. Me join team, not need think.

Speaking of teams, anyone see BSG on Friday? I mean, holy shit.

alan | April 12, 2008, 2:51pm | #

Joe is probably in the living room watching America's Team, The Boston Red Sox play some ball.

Ali | April 12, 2008, 2:52pm | #

Speaking of teams, anyone see BSG on Friday? I mean, holy shit.

BSG, seriously, what the hell is that?

Ayn_Randian | April 12, 2008, 2:58pm | #

Battlestar Galactica?

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 3:01pm | #

Yes, Battlestar Galactica. Since this has become the de facto Friday thread, and there are plenty of fans who hang out here, I thought I might ask.

Ali | April 12, 2008, 3:04pm | #

So, who won the battle? The good guys or the bad guys? Us or them?

Guy Montag | April 12, 2008, 3:07pm | #

I think I found the source for the bitterness quote. It came to me after a few more cups of coffee and a couple of glasses of murh-lot (you know, I am one of those 'heartland' types).

In the documentry by D. Knight, To Serve Man we learn that folks from rural areas truly are bitter, quite "gamey" tasting. City people, not so much. That was a key reason why the visitors concentrated on the large cities, rather than the rural areas.

J sub D | April 12, 2008, 10:25am | #,

Are you saying that the actions of the corporate elite don't have a large effect on the economy?

Yes and the evidence you brought is proof of a small effect, that is corrected by the market shortly. The Wal*Mart does not really fit as they are still successful by not making the same mistakes as A&P, K-Mart and others. When they do, some better firm will replace them as a market leader.

You are f*ing kidding me?
That is an outrage. Call the parks commisioner and verbally slap him around for a while. All of her pioneering work in computer science was done as a naval officer.

I believe it is on private property, created by the owners of the apartment complex where she lived near the Pentagon. It is across the street from the Pentagon Row shopping mall. If you watch the opening sequence of No Way Out, you can see the apartment building, second one from I-395, IIRC. But that was shot before the mall was built and while Adm. Hopper was still alive.

Mo,

The most of the presidents before Mr. Carter were born at home rather than in a hospital. Mr. Truman would have probably wished folks believe he was born on a Grayhound bus rolling down highway 41, but I do not believe that was the case.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 3:17pm | #

Allahamba O'Govern just lost the election, hes really getting slammed for his "bitter" comment even by other liberal Democrats.

But what I would I know? I'm just a "typical white person" whose "bitter" and "Clings to guns".

What an elitist.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 3:19pm | #

Hey, pinko, want to defend Obama about that quote? What do you think he meant by that?

Are you going to denounce it, or do you also think that people who own guns, go to church, and drive SUVs, and shop at Wal-Mart are just sutpid and bitter waiting to be enlightened by their San Francisco liberal masters?

Ali | April 12, 2008, 3:21pm | #

Neil- You're paranoid.

Elemenope | April 12, 2008, 3:21pm | #

Are you going to denounce it, or do you also think that people who own guns, go to church, and drive SUVs, and shop at Wal-Mart are just stupid and bitter...

That's not what he said.

Neil | April 12, 2008, 3:27pm | #

Do you denounce his dispariging statements about white, rural, working class gun owners and religious people, Elemenope?

Ayn_Randian | April 12, 2008, 3:28pm | #

Neil, you have some su