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'The moral vacuity of dogmatic libertarianism is poisonous to public life'

Now that John McCain has re-emerged as a Time coverboy and GOP frontrunner-by-acclamation (if not by actual, um, delegates), The Weekly Standard -- the magazine that has historically supplied the maverick presidential contender with hefty chunks of his ideology, historical antecedents and even staff -- has finally decided that the water's warm enough again for some full-throated 2000-style cheerleading. First came a defense of McCain's role in the "Gang of 14" business that some conservatives will never forgive him for, next came a mash note from new New York Times columnist Bill Kristol in which we are dared to love McCain for his manly ability to recite poetry from the Victorian era (ah, the jolly old days of empire!).

Then the cherry was placed on top today in a bizarre yet oddly compelling attack on libertarianism by academics Benjamin Storey and Jenna Silber Storey. Here's their two-headed strawman of a thesis:

The ire against McCain contains elements of two of the greatest fallacies of modern political thought: the notion that ideology can replace virtue as the mainstay of a decent regime, and the cynical assumption that virtue is not real but vanity in disguise.

See how that works? If you disagree with McCain's policies, and don't buy into his straight talk, why, you're an ideologue who doesn't believe in virtue!

Let's go straight into the broadside against reason:

The problem with absolute faith in any ideology, including that of the free market, becomes evident with a glance at the flagship publication of the libertarians, Reason magazine. It is no coincidence that Reason publishes hagiographies of Milton Freedman [sic] as well as pleas for drug legalization and appreciations of cartoon pornography: economic libertarianism, elevated to the status of inviolable first principle, leads to moral libertarianism.

The moral vacuity of dogmatic libertarianism is poisonous to public life. By teaching that 'greed is good,' strict free-market ideology holds out the promise that private vices can be public virtues. Recent congressional history has laid bare the fallacy of this argument. Republicans who proclaimed from the stump that greed was good turned out to believe it when they got into office, amassing earmarks and bridges to nowhere by means of their newfound powers. Why should we be surprised? To expect them to do otherwise would be to expect that men sometimes risk their self-interest for the sake of the public good, which our economist friends tell us is impossible. Conservatives who forget that the free market is properly a piece of policy rather than an ideological end-in-itself not only obscure the importance of individual virtue, they undermine it.

Without attempting to untangle the mess of that second graf -- seriously, read it again -- my question is this: Exactly where and how has libertarianism poisoned "public life"? Certainly not in the modern, Weekly Standard-approved national GOP, which has shot federal spending through the roof, created mammoth new entitlements, rammed through panicky regulatory nightmares, got the feds deep into local education, and lived out the doctrine of pre-emptive war. Of all the many, many things to complain about the party that has run most of the federal government for the past eight years, "dogmatic libertarianism" has to rank somewhere near the proliferation of Esperanto.

It's always flattering that libertarianism -- almost uniquely among strains of modern political thought -- is constantly challenged to defend itself against its most theoretical extremes.  (As a comparative thought exercise, try to take Weekly Standardism to its "logical conclusion" ... National Perfectness, maybe?) But I suspect what's really going on here is a Weekly Standard campaign, more than a decade old at this point (see Walter Olsen's reason take way back in July 1997), to purge principled libertarianism out of the GOP. This crystallized into National Greatness Conservatism, and found a willing vessel in John McCain. As David Brooks wrote, in a moment of McCain euphoria back in 2000, "the Goldwater-Reagan ideological message needs to be overhauled."

After the maverick insurrection hit the rocks, National Greatness dwindled to a movement of four or five members and flirted openly with bolting the GOP altogether, before finding a new audience in the Bush White House post-Sept. 11. By the 2004 presidential election, David Brooks was celebrating the "death of small-government conservatism" as we know it. While Storey & Storey fret that conservatives are "marginalizing anyone who does not toe the doctrinaire line of their free market ideology," four GOP presidential contenders are busy trying to out-stimulus package one another and dole out welfare to energy companies and homeowners, while a marginalized fifth guy gets the eye-rolling treatment for talking about aggressively slashing the scope of government. Thank God the culture is significantly more libertarian than the Kristol/Brooks GOP.

As for reason's particular flavor of poison, I looked in vain for an "appreciation of cartoon pornography," and the only thing that came remotely close was Tim Cavanaugh calling a graphic porn novel "flaccid" and "as subtle as a Ron Jeremy money shot." Turns out there's a pretty important difference between wishing the government out of people's free transactions, and assuming those transactions are wonderful (let alone wanting to force them upon the rest of society). There's a similar difference between preferring free markets and being some kind of libertarian People's Cultist. As Cavanaugh wrote just today, regarding a completely different matter:

I love all attempts to imply that belief in a free market is some kind of revealed religion, unmoored from any ocular proof. Sure, a member of the irrational capitalist religion might say there's actual evidence for the effectiveness of economics. Maybe by noting that, in the period after lending at interest and common-stock corporations came into regular use, human beings went from not wiping their backsides to landing people on the moon, expanded their population by orders of magnitude, abandoned slavery and serfdom, etc., all in about a third of the time it took the tale of Huckabee's savior to travel the token distance from Jerusalem to Oslo. But hey, that's just theology.

Virginia Postrel (and James Glassman) were on to National Greatness from the git-go. I've got a chapter about the curious ideology in my book. W. James Antle, III wrote about The Weekly Standard after its 10th birthday.

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Comments to " 'The moral vacuity of dogmatic libertarianism is poisonous to public life'":

Andrew | January 25, 2008, 12:06am | #

If nothing else, the Olsen article from 1997 proves that Andrew Thomas has been consistent in being an authoritarian asshole. Those of us living in Maricopa County are such lucky individuals.

SIV | January 25, 2008, 12:07am | #

The Weekly Standard hasn't picked up on the cosmotarian thing or they would be praising you guys for getting on the band wagon.

Bingo | January 25, 2008, 12:07am | #

Finally wrapped my head around the title, I think. Does it translate to "Letting people make decisions for themselves based on their own morals is bad for the Greater Good"?

I can think of a few people that would agree with that statement, but its too early to invoke Godwin's Law.

The Democratic Republican | January 25, 2008, 12:14am | #

Welch's hatred of McCain is awe-inspiring and, I must admit, has single-handedly prevented me from getting suckered into voting for the man.

shecky | January 25, 2008, 12:16am | #

So the Republicans are trying not to woo libertarians into voting the GOP ticket? I think this plan may work.

The Wine Commonsewer | January 25, 2008, 12:18am | #

Reason is, well, a vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous pervert!

Colin | January 25, 2008, 12:22am | #

It seems they've again confused "libertarainism" with "libertinism," which is understable as the words are close together in the dictionary.

Either that or they read that Post article.

Brandybuck | January 25, 2008, 12:23am | #

Wow, the statist really don't like us, do they? Maybe if we changed our name to "tolerant cosmopolitan" and baked them cookies, they would like us better.

Jesse Walker | January 25, 2008, 12:23am | #

Wasn't "Milton Freedman" a character on M*A*S*H?

The Wine Commonsewer | January 25, 2008, 12:27am | #

Jesse, you owe me a got dam new monitor.

tarran | January 25, 2008, 12:27am | #

Yep,

Government spending is out of control.

The U.S. military is being chewed up by two open-ended wars.

The U.S. Central Bank is printing money and depreciating the currency causing rampant inflation and economic instability.

Despite the fact that we libertarians are opposed to all of this, the problems stemming from these things are somehow our fault.

Much of the modern "conservative" intellectual thought reminds me of Colonel Hackworth's warning about the destructiveness of stupid yet energetic people.

Robert | January 25, 2008, 12:34am | #

The Weekly Standard was founded for the purpose of proving the National Review to be too libertarian for real conservatives. It was largely in rxn to Buckley's call for legal drugs.

Adamness | January 25, 2008, 12:37am | #

If there's only one reason to love Reason, it's the only political publication that makes me laugh out loud on a regular basis.

Seriously though, this really makes it clear how there is very little difference between Dems and Repubs, and they make no apologies for it. It's awfully amazing how folks at publications like the Weekly Standard can be so dogmatic and arrogant themselves, while they've been wrong on almost everything. They had virtual free reign over the government for years, and they did nothing right, and nothing they did was successful.

Geoff | January 25, 2008, 12:39am | #

Kristol, 2003, NPR's Fresh Air: "There's been a certain amount of pop sociology in America ... that the Shia can't get along with the Sunni and the Shia in Iraq just want to establish some kind of Islamic fundamentalist regime. There's almost no evidence of that at all. Iraq's always been very secular."

I think this pretty much sums up Kristol's cred in one short summation.

Jim Walsh | January 25, 2008, 12:47am | #

So who the hell reads the Weekly Standard anyway? The same people who think Sean Hannity is an astute observer of the political and cultural scene. Need I say more...

Pig Mannix | January 25, 2008, 12:51am | #

You know, now that I think about it, I've never met anyone who reads the Weekly Standard. Or at least who will admit to it....

crimethink | January 25, 2008, 12:54am | #

Pig Mannix,

It's sort of like Hustler in that respect.

Geoff | January 25, 2008, 12:55am | #

It's obviously easier to throw bricks at an up-and-coming movement when your own house is in utter disarray.

If this primary season has demonstrated anything--to me, at least--it's that the Republicans are basically screwed and they don't know which way to go from here.

The problem is, they're all running about with palms firmly pressed against their ears with a distinct "I can't hear you LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!" strain of denial audible from Bangalore while they magically believe running on a platform of "Hey, we're not Bush (but really, we're just joking--we kinda are)" is somehow going to bring them back to prominence.

Geoff | January 25, 2008, 12:55am | #

Well, I correct myself; not all...

Windypundit | January 25, 2008, 1:05am | #

"economic libertarianism, elevated to the status of inviolable first principle, leads to moral libertarianism"

They say that like it's a bad thing.

javier | January 25, 2008, 1:07am | #

national greatness? almost like they want to start a new nationalist reign, or reich if you will.

alan | January 25, 2008, 1:08am | #

I first encountered The Weekly Standard in the mid nineties, likely shortly after that ship of tools set off on the maiden voyage, and I admit I found the first few issues I read to be fairly agreeable. Soon after this, they printed that issue with the picture of a strolling Theodore Roosevelt on its cover with the words National Greatness strewn across it.

My exact thought when I saw that was, 'oh, these are not my kind of people at all.' They have never proved that sentiment wrong, yet. TR worshippers for crimminey sakes, the man who put the stupid in the stupid party.

But, you ever wonder how much of the Weekly Standard neocon types self styled Patriotism is conditioned on the US being, 'the greatest', 'the most powerful', 'the economic champion of all time', 'winner of 337 Gold medals, 49 more than any other nation', etc?

To paraphrase Chesterton, the problem with these assclowns is that they don't love America nearly enough just for being the tart little harlot she is.

Bingo | January 25, 2008, 1:09am | #

crimethink:

True, except for the fact that Hustler is content to merely airbrush reality. The Weekly Standard will either ignore it completely or twist it until it becomes something else entirely.

P Brooks | January 25, 2008, 1:14am | #

I want to care, honest!
I do!
These are important people, and they seem so sincere.

Why on earth would I think they are gibbering imbeciles? I must not be very bright.

Frazier Smith | January 25, 2008, 1:17am | #

Shecky!

Get the jet!

Franklin Harris | January 25, 2008, 1:23am | #

The Weekly Standard hasn't picked up on the cosmotarian thing or they would be praising you guys for getting on the band wagon.
No, they hate cosmos almost as much as they hate paleos because cosmos are generally too irreligious. A central tenant of the Weakly Standard (yes, that's a pun) faith is that the masses need religion or else chaos will ensue. Not that the WS crowd is especially religious; they just subscribe to the Marxian idea that religion is the opiate of the masses, but then conclude that's a good thing.

javier | January 25, 2008, 1:23am | #

Listen to the audible voice cluing Romney in when he didn't know the answer to the Reagan question

javier | January 25, 2008, 1:24am | #

sorry wrong thread

Franklin Harris | January 25, 2008, 1:28am | #

But, you ever wonder how much of the Weekly Standard neocon types self styled Patriotism is conditioned on the US being, 'the greatest', 'the most powerful', 'the economic champion of all time', 'winner of 337 Gold medals, 49 more than any other nation', etc?
That especially explains Canadians like David Frum, who seems to have come to the U.S. because he had ICBM envy.

Bingo | January 25, 2008, 1:40am | #

Franklin:

Excellent point about the WS vs. cosmotarians. Really, I think it goes beyond that. WS seems to seek power for the sake of control. Being pro-Drug-War, Hawkish, traditionalist, populist (in that they will pander), and a free-market-be-damned attitude they are almost the exact opposite of a cosmotarian.

The only thing a cosmo and someone from the WS would share is maybe a sense of pragmatism or political correctness.

Brandybuck | January 25, 2008, 1:56am | #

The only thing a cosmo and someone from the WS would share is maybe a sense of pragmatism or political correctness.
...and employment in a think tank! Don't for that one!

a Duoist | January 25, 2008, 1:59am | #

The critical difference between the neo-conservative and the libertarian is that the neo-con is psychically driven constantly to find an enemy to confront; the libertarian does not share that level of 'us vs. them' anxiety. Both are freedom-lovers, but the libertarian has freedom as a philosophy, while the neo-con has freedom as an ideology.

peachy | January 25, 2008, 2:01am | #

So, they do their level best to kick us out of the party (and are damned successful too), proceed to do the opposite of everything we would have done, then turn around eight years later after they've trashed the country and blame us for screwing it all up? National Greatness Conservatism is just a long-winded way of saying fascism - so fuck the Republican Party and the horse it rode in on.

EricDonderosCumStainedDrawers | January 25, 2008, 2:02am | #

Either Ron Jeremy or Bill Kristol can do a "money shot" on me. That's Libertarian, baby.

Bingo | January 25, 2008, 2:09am | #

Both are freedom-lovers, but the libertarian has freedom as a philosophy, while the neo-con has freedom as an ideology.

No. The difference is the scope of the freedom. The neo-con thinks that sacrificing freedoms to maintain freedom is necessary. A libertarian sees the dichotomy of that, and does not agree that freedom is a zero sum game. It is never necessary to sacrifice one freedom to preserve another.

Neo-conservatism is perfectly incarnated in Rudy Giuliani when he says that freedom is submission to authority.

impeckish | January 25, 2008, 2:14am | #

Storey and Storey are academics?! Yikes, no wonder Johnny can't see the distinction between society and state.

As the Hindus say, this is the age of Kali Yuga - the age of great dunderheaded darkness led by the thickest human beings on the planet. I think they might have even referred to the Storeys by name.

miche | January 25, 2008, 2:15am | #

Reason is, well, a vacuous, toffee-nosed, malodorous pervert!
Did you see the 2 girls 1 glass thing today too? (YouTube reaction to the video before you Google the disgusting video yourselves. I want no part of sharing it outside of my four walls.)

Bradford C. | January 25, 2008, 2:18am | #

Don't worry, paleos, you'll have your own think-tank someday as soon as survivalists in the Catskills get electricity and running water.

alan | January 25, 2008, 2:30am | #

Both are freedom-lovers, but the libertarian has freedom as a philosophy, while the neo-con has freedom as an ideology.

Their ideology is a neo Bismarkian Nationalism, the institutions they cherish, a 'hand-up' welfare state, and religion are valued to the extent
their agency produces canon fodder.

They just happen to live in a nation founded upon libertarian principles, hence they co-opt the language of freedom for their own purpose.

In that context, classical liberals are a problem to them to a much greater extent than any actual power or influence we possess, and thus the animus that you see in that article.

ee | January 25, 2008, 2:42am | #

The problem with absolute faith in any ideology, including that of the free market, becomes evident with a glance at the flagship publication of the libertarians, Reason magazine.

Reason (the word) replaces faith. I don't say "I have faith in reason". WRT Reason magazine, it is not called Libertarian magazine, for a reason.

Do I have to drink, puke, or do both for that?

impeckish | January 25, 2008, 2:46am | #

"To expect them to do otherwise would be to expect that men sometimes risk their self-interest for the sake of the public good, which our economist friends tell us is impossible."

Self-interest and the public good usually mesh nicely. It's in my self-interest and the public good's interest to have clean lakes and rivers, clean air, and a robust economy. When they don't, "libertarianism" (you know that amorphous blob of collective thought) doesn't necessarily indicate that one couldn't sacrifice one's self-interest (in a very narrow understanding of the term) for the public good. Nothing in my own version of libertarianism prevents me from joining the army, volunteering at a soup kitchen, joining a church, or working for an assortment of charities and associations Certainly nothing in understanding of libertarianism suggests I would think it morally preferable to spend all my time whacking off to a porno. Where is that the Storeys get such nonsense? How is that a couple of academics (I assume in polisci?) have only the crudest, cartoon, cariacatured understanding of classical liberalism?

Bingo | January 25, 2008, 3:09am | #

What impeckish said, only with more scantily-clad women and alcohol!

ee | January 25, 2008, 3:21am | #

The modern form of this debate goes back at least as far as Immanuel Kant, who articulated the core of the progressive faith when he argued that "a people of devils" could form a well-governed society, as long as those devils were intelligent--that is, as long as they believed in the correct ideology.

Sometimes I get of moment of spirituality where I can pause to thank the God I don't believe in for making me too stupid to understand Kant.

Franklin Harris | January 25, 2008, 3:35am | #

Neo-conservatism is perfectly incarnated in Rudy Giuliani when he says that freedom is submission to authority.
Giuliani is Wonder Woman?

John C. Randolph | January 25, 2008, 5:19am | #

"The moral vacuity of dogmatic libertarianism is poisonous to public life."

Somehow, I'm rather more concerned about the moral depravity of authoritarianism.

In this country, the state is supposed to serve the people. We've gone way too far down the road of letting the politicians and bureaucrats think they have a right to tell us what to do.

-jcr

Ventifact | January 25, 2008, 5:22am | #

Finally wrapped my head around the title, I think. Does it translate to "Letting people make decisions for themselves based on their own morals is bad for the Greater Good"?
National Greatness Conservatism is just a long-winded way of saying fascism.
I feel like, between the directions Republicans are going as articulated by Bingo and peachy and the directions Democrats are going (as articulated by... Marx and Engels?), America is trying to decide which rejected social system from past generations and other parts of the world we should give a try ourselves.

John C. Randolph | January 25, 2008, 5:24am | #

"Certainly nothing in understanding of libertarianism suggests I would think it morally preferable to spend all my time whacking off to a porno. "

Ah, but as a libertarian, you would obviously neglect the moral imperative of preventing other people from spending all of *their* time wacking off to pornos! That's why the Storeys must scold you for your dereliciton of duty! Clearly, the public good demands that you forcibly impose the Storey's morals on your neighbors!

Sometimes, I wish that academics were exposed to heckling on a regular basis, within their ivory towers. If I ever meet Mr. and Mrs. Storey, I'd probably tell them to go fuck themselves.

-jcr

Vent | January 25, 2008, 5:24am | #

Also, "public life" has no really good definition in this context, as it clearly is not meant in its only reliable definition, that of one's public social life beyond close friends and family. As such the phrase cannot be pinned down and refuted, only existing as a vague haunting set of implications.

John C. Randolph | January 25, 2008, 5:25am | #

"Self-interest and the public good usually mesh nicely. "

Man, that sounds familiar... Didn't Adam Smith point that out? ;-)

-jcr

John C. Randolph | January 25, 2008, 5:26am | #

"the phrase cannot be pinned down and refuted, only existing as a vague haunting set of implications"

Yep. Typical of moralizing blather.

-jcr

Ventifact | January 25, 2008, 5:27am | #

Ah, but as a libertarian, you would obviously neglect the moral imperative of preventing other people from spending all of *their* time wacking off to pornos!
This thread has a lot to say about why Republicans will not be open to drug legalization any time soon -- even if most Repubs have used drugs or guiltlessly and knowingly enjoy drug-influenced music. They just want to be sure no deadbeats are skipping out on their obligations to be hardworking citizens instead of lazy stoners.

Ventifact | January 25, 2008, 5:29am | #

The beautiful irony of the meaninglessness of that blather is how it declares that libertarians are plagued by vacuity.

John C. Randolph | January 25, 2008, 5:45am | #

"Republicans will not be open to drug legalization any time soon"

Some Republicans have been in favor of ending the drug war for decades, and their numbers are increasing.

-jcr

Ventifact | January 25, 2008, 5:46am | #

Also, the whole idiotic point about self-interested legislators necessarily screwing the country over actually suffers because of another of the article's delusions: that libertarianism has a prominent place in GOP politics. It doesn't have such a prominent place, and thus few legislators have been held to protect their self-interest by following constituents' libertarian preferences. If you stop to recognize that the self-interested politicians messing stuff up are from a GOP that is decidedly unlibertarian, you might not feel so certain that libertarian legislators are inherently destined to try to pull whatever they can over on the country. Not if they felt like keeping their jobs.

And anyway, if there was really a big libertarian base, self-interest of politicians would have ensured that they carried out their constituents' interests by long ago establishing a system in which pork is a deviation and not the norm, wars cannot occur without a declaration, "interstate commerce" means interstate commerce (and only interstate commerce), our bodies really do belong to us, etc... In other words, political power would be so relatively restricted by custom and law that no self-interested person would have the ability to screw everyone else for his own sake (at least not through the government, and not with the prospect of re-election, or at least not unless they were exceedingly clever).

And since when did Republicans openly argue against "greed is good"? Is the GOP really explicitly shifting to a position that is not morally neutral with regards to a person's choice to amass wealth or to prioritize wealth over other pursuits? We're really in trouble now guys...

Vent | January 25, 2008, 5:47am | #

Huh, jcr, that's interesting. I'd be interested to read any links or personal thoughts you might have about the GOP moving in the direction of easing drug restrictions.

NP | January 25, 2008, 6:28am | #

To hell with libertarianism and politics, here's the most important news of the day: Djokovic just beat Federer in straight sets. Yes, you read that right. FEDERER LOST IN STRAIGHT SETS. In straight sets! I could understand a 3-1 loss, but this is... unreal. First Nadal and now Federer? What's this world coming to?

Taktix® | January 25, 2008, 7:09am | #

Djokovic just beat Federer in straight sets. Yes, you read that right. FEDERER LOST IN STRAIGHT SETS.

Calling thoreau, tennis got interesting again...

Matt Welch | January 25, 2008, 7:20am | #

Interesting side note -- The original title of the Storey Squared piece, for the first several hours after posting, was "No Substitute for Victory." No really, I'm serious.

Malto Dextrin | January 25, 2008, 8:10am | #

Rudy Giuliani ... says that freedom is submission to authority (Bingo, 2:09am)

Wow. In arabic, 'submission to (divine) authority' is written 'islam'.

gaijin | January 25, 2008, 8:10am | #

Nice job responding to the Storey's sorry story Matt!

Matt | January 25, 2008, 8:24am | #

I was miffed at Reason for about three days following the Ron Paul debacle, but these limpid attacks put me right back on your side. Great post, Matt.

Besides, where the hell else am I gonna go, LRC?

NP | January 25, 2008, 8:30am | #

Taktix - Not to nitpick, but I believe it was J sub D who asked for the call.

And to J sub D: Ha! What do you say now? Ready to take back your word yet?

madmikefisk | January 25, 2008, 8:41am | #

Once they mention "greed is good" as a central tenet of libertarianism... they lose all credibility (assuming, mind you, they had any to begin with). Rational self-interest is good... and if said rational self-interest makes you a crapload of money, all the better.

What's so hard about that to understand?

Pig Mannix | January 25, 2008, 8:50am | #

Both are freedom-lovers, but the libertarian has freedom as a philosophy, while the neo-con has freedom as an ideology.

Well, the word means different things to neo-cons and libertarians. When a neo-con uses it, he's talking about an invasion of somebody else's country....

Episiarch | January 25, 2008, 9:02am | #

"dogmatic libertarianism" has to rank somewhere near the proliferation of Esperanto

Wait, we are responsible for Incubus?

(It's actually not bad)

robc | January 25, 2008, 9:04am | #

they just subscribe to the Marxian idea that religion is the opiate of the masses

Well, they are Trotskyites, so it isnt a shock.

Reinmoose | January 25, 2008, 9:05am | #

To hell with libertarianism and politics, here's the most important news of the day: Djokovic just beat Federer in straight sets. Yes, you read that right. FEDERER LOST IN STRAIGHT SETS. In straight sets! I could understand a 3-1 loss, but this is... unreal. First Nadal and now Federer? What's this world coming to?
WHAT!?
That's... both awesome and sad at the same time. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga looks like he's this year's Baghdatis, but I think Djokovic is set to win his first major.

Episiarch | January 25, 2008, 9:06am | #

First Nadal and now Federer?

Nadal is Catalonian. He will always lose to someone from a more powerful European country.

Reinmoose | January 25, 2008, 9:08am | #

"Letting people make decisions for themselves based on their own morals is bad for the Greater Good"?

< ala Hot Fuzz >
The Greater Gooood...
< /ala Hot Fuzz >

Troy | January 25, 2008, 9:10am | #

What a bunch of schmucks. There is a big difference in a business man with a "greed is good" attitude and a government man with one.


A business man has to convince people to voluntarily give him is money. A government man gets his money at the point of a gun.


If this paper is too stupid to understand the moral implications of that difference, I really don't then who give a fuck what these douchebags think.

joe | January 25, 2008, 9:21am | #

Getcha popcorn.

Warren | January 25, 2008, 9:42am | #

Maybe by noting that, in the period after lending at interest and common-stock corporations came into regular use, human beings went from not wiping their backsides to landing people on the moon, expanded their population by orders of magnitude, abandoned slavery and serfdom, etc., all in about a third of the time it took the tale of Huckabee's savior to travel the token distance from Jerusalem to Oslo. But hey, that's just theology.

Can I get a signed copy of that? Preferably hand written with a turkey quill on parchment.

NP | January 25, 2008, 9:53am | #

Reinmoose,

Yeah, I'm with you. Remember, Djokovic hasn't dropped a single set throughout this entire tourney. He's putting on what's almost certain to become one of the greatest performances in recent tennis history (well, besides Federer).

Episiarch,

In half seriousness, what the hell are you talking about? You really think Switzerland is more powerful than Spain? Oh, right. He's from Catalonia. (Actually, he's from Majorca.) By that logic, you're suggesting that Basel-City is more powerful than Catalonia, which is like saying Roddick is better than Federer because he serves faster. I think you should take an occasional break from your science fiction.

Episiarch | January 25, 2008, 9:55am | #

Holy shit NP, it was a joke. Take a Valium or something, you need it. Seriously.

An Ottawa Reader | January 25, 2008, 9:58am | #

The story is told of Cral Jung that he once had two patients, both suffering from a Messiah complex. His usual therapy wasn't any help, so one day he decided to introduce them to each other.

He brought them both into the same room at the mental hospital and told them:

"Mr. Kristol, this is Mr. Rockwell. He thinks he is Jesus Christ. Mr Rockwell, this is Mr. Kristol. He thinks he is Jesus Christ. But obviously you can't both be Jesus Christ! So I'd like you to settle the issue once and for all."

The good doctor left them, and went to have a nice hot cup of tea.

When he returned, Kristol and Rockwell were sitting at opposite ends of the room, their backs turned to each other. When Jung asked them what had happened while he was gone, in unsion they pointed to each other and shouted:

"That guy's a raving lunatic!"

(Names have been changed to protect the innocent.)

John | January 25, 2008, 9:58am | #

There is nothing to say that you cannot embrace private morality and civic virtue while rejecting government coercion of that virtue. The great seducer of libertarians and their opponents both is to forget that fact. Just because the government shouldn't dictate morality doesn't mean there is no such thing as morality or that people shouldn't have a right to form civil associations in pursuit of those morals. Libertarians forget that or at best pay lip service to it and statists forget that and start thinking that the only way to have a moral society is to enforce it from above. Both positions are equally wrong.

Libertarians get tagged with the "greed is good" line because they forget this fact. Greed isn't good, freedom is good; the freedom to pursue your own interests in your own way. But even freedom, while better than the alternative, has its limits. Just because you are free, doesn't mean you will prosper. The market is only as good as its participants. If the people in the market have no respect for the law, no respect for morality, and no respect for the common good, the market will just produce oligarchs and crooks. Yes, those types are always there, but if you get too many of them the market fails. Look at Russia. Russia allegedly is a free market, but it is a market run by a society poisoned by 80 years of communism. Russia is a society that doesn't value freedom or individual rights, and that has left over soviet values that basically say that it is okay to steal or use political influence to get ahead. The market is never going to produce much freedom or prosperity under those conditions.

What libertarians often fail to understand is that our country and our market for all of its flaws works so well and makes us fabulously wealthy because we have a society that for the most part is filled with hard working decent people who have sense of morality who get up every day and play by the rules and make things run. It is true that if we didn't have freedom and the market they couldn't do that. But it is equally true that if the country wasn't filled with people like that, the market and freedom wouldn't buy us anything. Libertarians are absolutely right to say that the government really can't do a very good job of fostering that kind of morality and work ethic. But they are dead wrong to think that the necessary morality and respect for each other and the law just magically rises wherever there is a market. You need the civil structures and shared values to get that and the market in and of itself will not give it to you.

An Ottawa Reader | January 25, 2008, 9:58am | #

*Carl Jung, obviously. I shouldn't comment on Friday.

R C Dean | January 25, 2008, 9:59am | #

It is never necessary to sacrifice one freedom to preserve another.

Well, that's not entirely true to a minarchist libertarian (but I repeat myself). That's essentially an anarchist position.

Any society with a state accepts some limitations on freedom. Even the night watchman state restricts your freedom to commit fraud and aggression against your neighbors.

NP | January 25, 2008, 10:01am | #

Episiarch,

Mine was too. I figured you would've noticed that from the Roddick-Federer analogy, but guess I was wrong. My bad.

Reinmoose | January 25, 2008, 10:01am | #

NP -
I, unfortunately, haven't gotten to watch much of Djokovic this tournament because ESPN2 has been showing Williams sister matches twice a day (once in the 3:30am slot, and then again during the day). I suspect that if he wins here his American television coverage will at least improve to about the level of Nadal's.

Who do you like in the Sharapova/Ivanovic match?

Episiarch | January 25, 2008, 10:06am | #

Mine was too. I figured you would've noticed that from the Roddick-Federer analogy, but guess I was wrong. My bad.

Well, I guess it's my bad for not getting it. I find Federer so boring that I have difficulty watching him. He's amazing, but so boring. Tennis really needs another MacEnroe.

John | January 25, 2008, 10:06am | #

"Who do you like in the Sharapova/Ivanovic match?"

Sharapova. She is finally in shape. She has great game but on hard surfaces she had problems in long rallys because she wasn't in the kind of physical condition she needed to be. She carried about five too many pounds and was slow and got tired. In the off season this year she dropped that weight and got in better shape. Now she can run down balls she couldn't before and doesn't tire so easily. That makes her very tough to beat.

Lamar | January 25, 2008, 10:10am | #

"The moral vacuity of dogmatic libertarianism is poisonous to public life."

At first I just blew on past this. But what does it mean? What is "public life"? Community? Business? Being safe when you walk down the street? Public health? Suburban family life? Church? What the hell is it?

John | January 25, 2008, 10:12am | #

"Well, I guess it's my bad for not getting it. I find Federer so boring that I have difficulty watching him. He's amazing, but so boring. Tennis really needs another MacEnroe."

Why? Because you want someone to yell? Federer's game is beautiful. He makes such great shots. I can understand how someone like Lendle or worse yet Agasi or Chang, guys who just ran everything down and won through consistency and determination rather than creativity and shot making are considered boring. But not Federer. He plays a gorgous game, he is anything but boring, unless you just came to see the circus rather than the match.

Reinmoose | January 25, 2008, 10:12am | #

I too like Sharapova, if for no other reason than the experience. She's finally got the one-slam-wonder monkey off her back at the 2006 US Open, so she can relax and play her game. I agree that she looks fitter than she did last year, and that shoulder problem looks to have finally subsided.

John | January 25, 2008, 10:13am | #

"At first I just blew on past this. But what does it mean? What is "public life"? Community? Business? Being safe when you walk down the street? Public health? Suburban family life? Church? What the hell is it?"

I think it means what I explained above; the idea that you are only as good as the people in society. If you don't have a society that values the law and work, a market no matter how free, isn't going to get you very far.

Reinmoose | January 25, 2008, 10:17am | #

At first I just blew on past this. But what does it mean? What is "public life"? Community? Business? Being safe when you walk down the street? Public health? Suburban family life? Church? What the hell is it?

Does it matter, Lamar? All you need to know is that you are a good, altruistic human being and everyone else is immoral and requires force to behave in a civilized manner.

J sub D | January 25, 2008, 10:17am | #

Sometimes, I wish that academics were exposed to heckling on a regular basis, within their ivory towers. If I ever meet Mr. and Mrs. Storey, I'd probably tell them to go fuck themselves.

They could spend a day or two reading and commenting on Hit & Run, perhaps?

Don't announce your coming, Mr and Ms Storey. Just drop in and discuss the issues of the day. Unlike the Weekly Standard, here you don't get cut off for not toeing the party line.

Countering that "moral vacuity of dogmatic libertarianism", should be child's play for a couple of learned and respected political scholars like yourselves.

So drop on by any time. BTW, Standard Libertarian Disclaimer #1 is "Libertarian does not equal libertine."

James | January 25, 2008, 10:18am | #

I'm on the McCain straight-talk express...100 years in Iraq baby!!

Episiarch | January 25, 2008, 10:19am | #

Well screw you too John. I'm so sorry I don't appreciate Federer as much as you. Are you trying to say Mac was just a circus freak and not fucking amazing? He had personality. Federer is like a tennis robot. Yeah, he's great, but when you play like Data playing the violin it sucks.

John | January 25, 2008, 10:21am | #

"So drop on by any time. BTW, Standard Libertarian Disclaimer #1 is "Libertarian does not equal libertine."


No it doesn't but to some people it often does. Frankly, I think the is a really strong moral argument for small government in that big government just enables people's worst impulses. No we are not going to spend billions trying to save you from drugs, we are simply going to hold you responsible for your own personal and moral recklessness if you decide to abuse drugs. There is a fine line between help and enabling people and government help usually crosses it.

John | January 25, 2008, 10:23am | #

"Are you trying to say Mac was just a circus freak and not fucking amazing?"

Mac was amazing and I wish people played more like him in that he was a true serve and volly guy who had incredible touch. But, frankly I am not sure you could play like that with todays rackets. Technology has really hurt the men's side of the sport. I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you meant we need another MacEnroe because he yelled and was such a jacksass. Apparaently, you didn't. My apologies.

NP | January 25, 2008, 10:25am | #

Reinmoose,

Yeah, ESPN hasn't shown much Djokovich so far but I think it has to do more with the class of his opponents than with our lack of interest in him per se. Besides Hewitt and maybe Ferrer he hasn't faced many high-profile players until today; add to this the fact that he's been winning in straight sets and you have relatively crowd-displeasing tennis.

As for the ladies' match, make your bet on Sharapova. Henin is still the best female player, but Sharapova has been outplaying herself in every match so far and I don't expect her to do any worse in her final.

Reinmoose | January 25, 2008, 10:28am | #

I didn't used to like to watch Federer play because I thought it was boring to watch a match that I already knew the outcome to. It was painful to watch good players lose to him 62 61 or similar scores. But then I started watching him for his skill, and since then I've enjoyed watching him for HOW he dismantles his opponents. I think he's been great for the game because, without Federer, who would be #1 right now (or for the past few years)? Andy Roddick? Please. He frustrates the hell out of me because he's so unidimensional. Would we even have a Rafael Nadal as good as we have without Roger?

I agree that he can be robotic, but he’s such an amazing robot.

Neu Mejican | January 25, 2008, 10:28am | #

It's always flattering that libertarianism -- almost uniquely among strains of modern political thought -- is constantly challenged to defend itself against its most theoretical extremes.

Unique?
Jesus in a potato.

Episiarch | January 25, 2008, 10:31am | #

But, frankly I am not sure you could play like that with todays rackets.

I have an O3 White just like Sharapova and I can get great touch out of it. It's not a heavy hitter like the O3 red, so you get more effect. With new strings and balls I can create topspin that you wouldn't believe. On good days, I never hit too long because of it.

de stijl | January 25, 2008, 10:34am | #

the notion that ideology can replace virtue as the mainstay of a decent regime, and the cynical assumption that virtue is not real but vanity in disguise.

Name the President who is considered the most "virtuous" of the last fifty years. The guy who leaped immediately to my mind was...Jimmy Carter. History's greatest monster.

John | January 25, 2008, 10:36am | #

Episiarch,

But the pros are so strong and hit the ball so hard and so consistent that I think they might just overpower someone like MacEnroe. Tech is great because it makes it easier for weekend hackers to play at a higher level. But at the highest levels, I wonder if it doesn't make the game all about power.

NP | January 25, 2008, 10:39am | #

Episiarch & John,

No less an authority than Mats Wilander said that McEnroe had the greatest potential among the giants of the Open Era, including Borg, Sampras and Federer. I seriously doubt that McEnroe wouldn't have been able to adjust his game with today's rackets. Great players remain great regardless of the differences in mere equipment.

And I do agree that McEnroe was the more exciting player of the two, but no personality for Federer? The guy has more shots in his repertoire than anyone else in men's history with the only possible exception of Rod Laver. You may not like his style, but let's agree that his personality on and off the court is more understated.

And I second what Reinmoose just said.

Neu Mejican | January 25, 2008, 10:42am | #

I would like to expand...

Libertarianism is not unique among political ideologies.
It is just like all the others.
It does not have to defend itself against the extremes of its principles anymore than any other ideology.

It is not more rational.
It is not uniquely moral.
It is not more idealistic.
It is not an orphaned philosophy without influence in the political life of the US.

Get over yourself Matt.

John | January 25, 2008, 10:43am | #

I would like to see Federer and Nadal play a match with a 70s era wood racket and see what it looked like. I agree that MacEnroe would change his game. I can't imagine the kind of spin he could put on his lefty serves with todays rackets. That said, he would change his game and wouldn't be the MacEnroe we all remember and love. He would train better, be stronger and be a better baseline banger. He would still be great, but I wonder if his game would be as pleasing.

Episiarch | January 25, 2008, 10:43am | #

It's not all about power. There is so much spin on pro hits it's amazing, but they all handle it so well you don't notice it.

Sampras was a power player. If he started losing he just aced people. And that sucks (though I admit I do the same thing--winning is a strong motivator). But he could still be overcome. I'm sure Mac would have figured out how to.

Placement is the key, though, and I think that's why Federer is so good. He is like a marksman. And better rackets just help with that--if you are doing it properly in the first place.

NP | January 25, 2008, 10:49am | #

John,

If you'd watched any of the matches McEnroe played recently, you would've noticed that he actually did hit harder with today's rackets than he used to in his prime with the more "primitive" equipment. This when the guy's now well in his middle age. Again equipment and fitness do matter, but that's not proof that the greats of yesteryear would be the merely excellent of today.

Goldwater Girl | January 25, 2008, 10:57am | #

So, they hate us for our freedoms?

Reinmoose | January 25, 2008, 10:58am | #

I think Federer proves that it's not all about power. That, and the fact that everyone at the top of the game hits pretty much just as hard as each other. Brad Gilbert was always talking about "putting weight on" Andy Roddick and Andy Murray, but I don't think that's the way to go with the tennis game these days. Movement is so much more important once you get high enough in power that any advantage you have over your opponents in power is marginal, and balanced by their ability to get behind the ball.

Matt Welch | January 25, 2008, 11:02am | #

It does not have to defend itself against the extremes of its principles anymore than any other ideology.

My point is that it is asked to defend the extremes of its principles more than, say, National Greatness Conservatism, or Third Way Democraticism, or even straight-up Greenism. You disagree?

James Anderson Merritt | January 25, 2008, 11:03am | #

John said, "Russia is a society that doesn't value freedom or individual rights, and that has left over soviet values that basically say that it is okay to steal or use political influence to get ahead. The market is never going to produce much freedom or prosperity under those conditions."

This is not unlike many areas of the United States where I have traveled or lived in five decades.

Isn't a market a place (or a protocol) whereby a willing buyer and a willing seller can find each other and voluntarily trade value for value, each walking away better off after the transaction because he got something he valued more than the thing he gave away?

If you start putting too many restrictions on this basic scenario, you may have something you CALL a market, which may have some market-like characteristics, but will it actually BE a market? In particular, if the post-Soviet Russian "market" is somewhere that you go to be coerced into making "politically correct" trades or having your property stolen, clearly we can't pin too many hopes on it, but should we confuse things by honoring such an institution with the name of "market"? On the other hand, if you have a real market, even one that operates in the heart of a broken society (and if that is even possible), can you not expect such an establishment to help cure the society's ills? This might explain why some of those US areas I alluded to above have markets (or institutions that are close to markets, if one ignores the distortions caused by government intervention), from which they derive great benefit. In that case, maybe there is hope for Russia, too.

The big problem with the neocons (also pointed out by others, above) is that they use the vocabulary of freedom without actually believing in freedom or promoting it. They pay lip service to freedom because that is what you do in the USA as you wave the flag. But true freedom would make many of their most cherished programs impossible and many of their core goals unattainable -- they know this, so it is important for them to usurp the mantle of "freedom's champions," at the same time marginalizing and vilifying the true champions, who see through the con and who would happily blow the whistle on it at every opportunity.

Fluffy | January 25, 2008, 11:10am | #

At first I just blew on past this. But what does it mean? What is "public life"? Community? Business? Being safe when you walk down the street? Public health? Suburban family life? Church? What the hell is it?

Well, it doesn't mean what John says it means, I'll tell you that much. Who values just law, work, etc. more than libertarians? No one.

Here's what it really means:

When you ask people to do absolutely moronic things like sacrifice their lives for "national greatness", you won't succeed without a comprehensive set of national bullshit lies that everyone buys into emotionally. People who are busily tending to their own gardens won't buy in, and the sight of them not buying in potentially leads others to not buy in.

An ideology that encourages people to demand freedom and the right to pursue happiness is destructive of a public life that consists of the mindless repetition of dead formulae, continual self-abasement before the state, up to and including sacrificing one's life to protect a submoronic President from his own strategic failures, and humility before the arbitrary commands of churches run by con men, grifters, medievalists, and retards.

MB | January 25, 2008, 11:11am | #

What John said.

JasonL | January 25, 2008, 11:20am | #

Libertarianism has to defend itself disproportionately because its presence on the internet is disproportinate to its number of adherents in meat space. People who spend a lot of time on the internet can come to believe that there is a massive libertarian movement out there based on the number of arguments they have, and internet libertarians sometimes forget they are numerically insignificant in the outside world.

Fluffy | January 25, 2008, 11:25am | #

It is not more rational.

I would argue that this is demonstrably false, for the following reason:

Two men are trying to solve a math problem.

One says, "Hmmm...I will try to use reason to solve this problem." He then gets the wrong answer, because he's not very good at math.

The second says, "Hmmm...I will try to solve this problem by pulling the liver out of a goat and looking at it for signs of the right answer." He then also gets the wrong answer.

Despite the fact that both men got the wrong answer, the first man is demonstably more rational than the second man.

Therefore, even if you think libertarianism is false or reaches the wrong conclusions, it is absolutely more rational than thought systems that make no secret of their irrational basis.

John | January 25, 2008, 11:31am | #

"The big problem with the neocons (also pointed out by others, above) is that they use the vocabulary of freedom without actually believing in freedom or promoting it. They pay lip service to freedom because that is what you do in the USA as you wave the flag. But true freedom would make many of their most cherished programs impossible and many of their core goals unattainable -- they know this, so it is important for them to usurp the mantle of "freedom's champions," at the same time marginalizing and vilifying the true champions, who see through the con and who would happily blow the whistle on it at every opportunity."

What the hell does that mean? How does having a voluntary military and being willing to use it not promote freedom? Further, how does the libertarian commitment to trade with anyone no matter how loathsome square with their "promotion of freedom"? The fallacy that libertarians fall into is the idea that wealth someone creates freedom. If we just trade with China and North Korea more, they would become more free. That is bullshit. China isn't anymore free today than it was 20 years ago. It is a hell of a lot more wealthy but it is not more free. In fact, the Chicoms ability to produce wealth and a better standard of living for its citizens is probably what kept it from having a revolution and enabled the CHICOMS to tighten their grip on power. Hard to find a richer society per capita than Saudia Arabia, but it is in no way free.

Now it may be true that not trading with China and North Korea doesn't really do any good and we might as well make money while we can. That is a perfectly reasonable argument. What is not reasonable is the idea that if we just trade with people they will automatically become more free. That is just bullshit. China puts lie to that every day. In fact, the more we trade with China, the more we are dependent on them and the more we have to accept their appalling behavior. It is true that their trading with us means they have to accept us to and abadon any ideas of attacking us. But our trading with them strengthens their ability to hold onto power.

Other than the desire to trade and get rich, I don't see where American libertarians have any desire to promote freedom in the world. If you judged the world by reading Reason, you wouldn't know the world existed outside of the US and Iraq. Reason has in the post 9-11 world a very inward looking isolationist magazine.

Fluffy | January 25, 2008, 11:32am | #

What libertarians often fail to understand is that our country and our market for all of its flaws works so well and makes us fabulously wealthy because we have a society that for the most part is filled with hard working decent people who have sense of morality who get up every day and play by the rules and make things run.

I'd still like to hear what the hell this has to do with the argument at hand, because frankly someone who spends their free time reading Ayn Rand is a lot more likely to behave this way than someone who takes their cue from that bastard Bill Kristol.

I hear an awful lot about the need for "moral content" in leadership but no one seems to be able to provide me with a real example. Even if Reason has libertine tendencies, they have absolutely nothing to do with any of the things you're talking about. Legalizing drugs would have virtually no impact on what you're describing here. None. Rates of atheism could spring to 95% and it would have no impact on what you're describing here. None. Frankly, it would probably improve them.

The upper income strata of this country is filled with perfectly honest and highly productive people who respect the rule of law who are also Ivy League atheists who smoked dope at Harvard and Yale while they boned their 17 year old Wellesley freshman girlfriends. You can't draw a causal connection between personal libertinism and Russian-style kleptocracy because it doesn't exist.

Episiarch | January 25, 2008, 11:34am | #

Hey, cut the shit--we were trying to talk tennis here.

Fluffy | January 25, 2008, 11:35am | #

Further, how does the libertarian commitment to trade with anyone no matter how loathsome square with their "promotion of freedom"?

Well, first of all, drop the "we".

If I am personally not free to trade with China, I am less free. The issue of whether or not the Chinese people will be more free over time if we trade with them is a good one, and strong arguments can be made on both sides, but it remains a secondary issue. The primary issue is: Who the fuck are you to tell me I can't get on a boat and go spend MY MONEY in China?

John | January 25, 2008, 11:39am | #

"The primary issue is: Who the fuck are you to tell me I can't get on a boat and go spend MY MONEY in China?"

No one can tell you that nor should you. But don't sit around and bitch then when people accuse libertarians of being narsisstic deadbeats who don't give a shit about anyone's freedom beyond their own.

de stijl | January 25, 2008, 11:39am | #

A central tenant of the Weakly Standard (yes, that's a pun) faith is that the masses need religion or else chaos will ensue. Not that the WS crowd is especially religious; they just subscribe to the Marxian idea that religion is the opiate of the masses, but then conclude that's a good thing.

It's actually Straussian. Noble Lies and all that.

Heinrick | January 25, 2008, 11:41am | #

If there is no cartoon porn on this site I am out of here!!!

P Brooks | January 25, 2008, 11:44am | #

But don't sit around and bitch then when people accuse libertarians of being narsisstic deadbeats who don't give a shit about anyone's freedom beyond their own.

You'll never love anyone else's freedom until you learn to love your own.

John | January 25, 2008, 11:46am | #

"The upper income strata of this country is filled with perfectly honest and highly productive people who respect the rule of law who are also Ivy League atheists who smoked dope at Harvard and Yale while they boned their 17 year old Wellesley freshman girlfriends. You can't draw a causal connection between personal libertinism and Russian-style kleptocracy because it doesn't exist."

No, our country has a alarming percentage of elites who feel that it is okay to steal from their shareholders and run fraud schemes like Enron in no small part because they were taught in business school that there is no such thing as business ethics because the capitalist system is evil anyway. Now that is not libertarians fault. But, libertarians never stop to think that the whole system is based on a sense of morality. Libertinism absolutely stands in contrast to that. If it feels good do it is great. What feels good to me is to lie cheat and steal my way to millions.

There is a casual link between libertinism and soviet style kleptocracy. The link is that if no one has any faith in any sense of morality or institutions, no one is going to give a shit to follow the rules. The Russians have a kleptocracy because they have an entire society of people who grew up under a system where no on believed in the system and only a sucker didn't cheat to get ahead.

Libertarians' mistake is that they ignore the need to build up institutions. They just want to tear them down. We hate the cops, We hate the courts, we hate the religion, we hate the fundies, we hate the military, and so forth. Eventually if you get your way on everything, you are left with nothing but a bunch of cynics gaming the system.

Reinmoose | January 25, 2008, 11:52am | #

The suggestion that libertarianism is based around the worship of greed, as asserted in the Weekly Standard article, is just plain retarded. Just because there is a theory out there that everyone acting in their own best interest leads to optimal outcomes does not mean that it is the flagship value of libertarians. Freedom, whether or not it results in the "best" outcome, is the most important thing. It's not a manipulation of society to create what we expect to be the best outcomes through greed you incompetent shits. It's the principle that no one person knows all that is good, and cannot and should not impose those values on everyone else.

Fluffy | January 25, 2008, 11:55am | #

The link is that if no one has any faith in any sense of morality or institutions, no one is going to give a shit to follow the rules.

That's the institutions' fault, baby.

THEY are the one who tells people that the reason they should be moral is because if they aren't the Flying Spaghetti Monster will be angry.

I've never met anyone connected with a church who had anything to tell me about any subject whatsoever, ESPECIALLY personal morality. When you conflate Christianity's demented sexual obsessions with the morality that tells us we shouldn't steal, it's YOUR fault when people say, "Well, the sex stuff is obvious crap, so I guess I can assume that the stuff about stealing is crap too."

When the state tells people that their March Madness bracket pool is illegal and immoral, people rightly conclude that the state has no judgment in matters of morality, and similarly discount its OTHER judgments.

Maybe if we hadn't inherited such shitty and idiotic churches and public institutions, people wouldn't lose faith in them. You ever consider that?

The first time you put up a picture of a fucking triceratops wearing a saddle you lose the authority to tell me anything about anything ever again. Forever. Luckily, my personal morality was never based on such nonsense, so the death of our institutions doesn't affect me. But if there are people out there who have been affected by the death of institutions, a strong case can be made that it was shitty institutions that let them down.

We hate the cops, We hate the courts

Produce just laws, and cops and courts that follow those just laws, and I'll love them just fine. Frankly, if the laws were just I would probably turn into fucking Javert. That's already the way I am in areas where our laws aren't absurd.

we hate the religion, we hate the fundies

Don't say stupid shit and I won't think you're stupid. Easy enough.

we hate the military

Bite me.

JasonL | January 25, 2008, 11:58am | #

John:

It is a fallacy of certain flavors of conservatism to act as though True Belief In Morality and Institutions were ever an effective check on behavior. We are as moral as we have ever been, and we believe in the institutions that work pretty well.

Fluffy | January 25, 2008, 12:01pm | #

No one can tell you that nor should you. But don't sit around and bitch then when people accuse libertarians of being narsisstic deadbeats who don't give a shit about anyone's freedom beyond their own.

To have a free society, I must be free.

To have a just society, I must be treated justly.

My knowledge of my personal situation is superior to my knowledge of anyone else's situation.

Therefore, the first analysis I should perform when faced with any law is: Is this law just to me? Does this law restrict my freedom?

If a law is unjust to me, I automatically know that law cannot serve a just society.

If a law restricts my freedom, I automatically know that law cannot serve a free society.

That means that further analysis is not required. Whether I "give a shit" about the freedom of the Chinese, or not. I already know that the law is unjust and restricts freedom. So if I love justice and freedom more than anything else, I must oppose the law.

It's really no more complex than that. Attempts to add greater complexity to the analysis are inherently deceptive and probably reveals the dishonest motive of wanting to confuse the issue.

NP | January 25, 2008, 12:05pm | #

Again what Reinmoose said. And given John's silence I guess he's conceded the point (every pun intended).

Episiarch - So if Federer isn't one of your faves, who do you like then (besides McEnroe, of course)?

Will Allen | January 25, 2008, 12:06pm | #

What these sort of dolts, along with much of the Christian right, never seem to grasp, is that behavior which is not freely chosen cannot not virtuous. Charles Manson has not been a better human being, lo these past 38 years, because he has not instigated any mass murders in that period. Duke Cunningham and Danny Rostenkowski did not become more honest men by being in prison cells, instead of on Congressional Committees. The notion that state coercion is the path to private virtue is so entirely stupid as to beggar belief, or at least get you a gig at The Weekly Standard.

Episiarch | January 25, 2008, 12:19pm | #

So if Federer isn't one of your faves, who do you like then (besides McEnroe, of course)?

I haven't really found myself rooting for anyone, actually. These guys seem quite similar to me, which is probably more of a function of the fact that I don't have the time to watch much. I'd rather be playing, and when I watch, I want to play even more.

Reinmoose | January 25, 2008, 12:21pm | #

I'd rather be playing, and when I watch, I want to play even more.

So true. Although, I don't belong to a club and it's winter, so....

Actually, I'm going to Hawaii to visit my sister for a couple of weeks in Feb. Maybe I can find someone out there...

J sub D | January 25, 2008, 12:25pm | #

And to J sub D: Ha! What do you say now? Ready to take back your word yet?

NP -
Yes I am. Upsets are my favorite part of sports. Here's hoping that Federer wins only 20% of the tournaments he enters for a while.

FYI, Fresh humble pie doesn't really taste any better than the old stuff. ;-)

NP | January 25, 2008, 12:25pm | #

I'd rather be playing, and when I watch, I want to play even more.

Good that you enjoy playing more than just watching the sport (or any sport, for that matter). Perhaps I should start playing more tennis myself, 'cause it's one of the rare sports that I've been even remotely good at.

stubby | January 25, 2008, 12:32pm | #

behavior which is not freely chosen cannot not virtuous

I wish more people would understand that - not just Christians, and not just conservatives. Laws can protect people from other people, but laws cannot make people better people.

Fluffy: There are a lot - in fact, a whole lot - of Christians who aren't obsessed with sex and don't think man and dino were buddies. All Christians are no more sex- addled creationist thugs than are all libertarians dope-smoking porno spanking would be robber barons. Bigotry is a fine excuse for dismissing the arguments of people you disagree with - I do it myself sometimes - but it's still bigotry.

NP | January 25, 2008, 12:33pm | #

J sub D,

Here's hoping that Federer wins only 20% of the tournaments he enters for a while.

Heh. I wouldn't count on it if I were you. Let's at least hope that Djokovic's win today wasn't a fluke and that Nadal starts winning on other surfaces than clay once in a while. That way we'll have a rivalry not seen since the great Borg-McEnroe-Connors era.

anonymoose | January 25, 2008, 12:37pm | #

Without the high stakes of U.S.-Soviet conflict, national-greatness conservatives are desperately seeking the moral equivalent of the Cold War. Their pursuit is in vain, for Americans go to war reluctantly and are happy to be at peace.

What a difference a decade makes.

Oh and BTW, John's 9:58am comment is one of the best I've ever read here.

J sub D | January 25, 2008, 12:47pm | #

The first time you put up a picture of a fucking triceratops wearing a saddle you lose the authority to tell me anything about anything ever again. Forever.

That was damned funny. Truth is needed for quality humor.

we hate the religion, we hate the fundies

I don't "hate" religion any more than I "hate" I love Lucy. In both cases, I just mock it's ridiculousness and wonder where the fans brains are located.

I don't "hate" powerless fundies. But history tells me to fear for my life if they have power. Anybody want to argue that point? Didn't think so.

hale | January 25, 2008, 12:52pm | #

Freedom, whether or not it results in the "best" outcome, is the most important thing. It's not a manipulation of society to create what we expect to be the best outcomes through greed you incompetent shits. It's the principle that no one person knows all that is good, and cannot and should not impose those values on everyone else.

Ding ding!

Pro Libertate | January 25, 2008, 12:52pm | #

"Moral vacuity?" I'm more moral than most of the people I know. Screw them and their ersatz high horse.

Pro Libertate | January 25, 2008, 12:53pm | #

"Them" being the authors, not the people I know.

alan | January 25, 2008, 12:54pm | #

I figure the true purpose* of this article is to set up a meme to be acted upon with the changing of the guard that is likely to occur in November.

If Hillary Clinton becomes the POTUS, the official narrative will run like this: The Bush Administration turned America into a morally vacuous, nation of Gordon Gekko profit seekers who disregarded all claims of community and public morality in the pursuit of greed. By electing a Democratic House, Senate and Presidency, America
has atoned herself of her blemished past.

Being the courtiers that they are, the neocons are getting to the head of the line in endorsing the official narrative. They have not named names as of yet, criticism of the Administration is still relatively mild in their circle, and they still hedge their bets in case Romney McCain actually beat the Dems, but if that doesn't occur the rats will abondon ship, and suck up to the new power center.

Essentially the substance of their argument when put motivation aside, is the argument that libertarians place a strong emphasis on Economic Man. There are many ways to dispute this, but let us take the premise as a given.

There is a reason this outlook is more rational than others. Your economic interest never lies to you. It never tells you that it is a good idea to get yourself killed in a foriegn nation unless your actual well being and those you love are at stake. It never tells you that blowing yourself up and dozens of people that you have never met will get you to a sex orgy in never-never land (btw, how is THAT for Libertinism?).

* Given neocons are Straussians, taking them at their word means always questioning their motives.

robc | January 25, 2008, 12:55pm | #

What is not reasonable is the idea that if we just trade with people they will automatically become more free.

What is reasonable is that if we trade with people WE become more free. I am more free if Im allowed to buy Cuban cigars. Whether that makes Cubans any freer is beside the point.

robc | January 25, 2008, 1:01pm | #

John's 9:58 post is pretty good but he is completely wrong on the things libertarians have "forgotten" or "fail to understand".

We have neither forgotten nor failed to understand. We just dont usually discuss it because it doesnt matter when discussing the role of government in things.

alan | January 25, 2008, 1:02pm | #

perhaps the Judaic/Christian/Islam creeds should be referred to as 'deferred gratification libertinism.'

J sub D | January 25, 2008, 1:22pm | #

we hate the military

Do we, John? I missed that memo.

R/
J sub D, FCCM, USN, Retired.

John | January 25, 2008, 1:32pm | #

"we hate the military

Do we, John? I missed that memo.

R/
J sub D, FCCM, USN, Retired."

I don't think every libertarian hates the military nor do I believe that libertarianism in exclusive of the military. In fact, I think just the opposite. You can't have a free society unless you have the ability to protect it with the gun.

My point, however, was that I think Libertarians get seduced into thinking that freedom and individuality are all that is necessary for a successful society. That is just not true. We in the US have a successful society in no small part because lots of people like yourself sacrificed their individuality and personal goals and in some cases their lives to a larger goal of the country. The