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The Angry Silence

Over at Alternet, former New York Press editor Alexander Zaitchik complains that reason hasn't afforded Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine—a "devastating critique of the idea that libertarian economics are synonymous with, or even compatible with, free societies"—the review it richly deserves. He explains:

The only mentions of Klein's book on the Reason site are a couple of easy dismissals by blogger Michael C. Moynihan. The first of these, posted September 19, calls Klein's intensively researched and tightly argued book a "screed," and says that anyone who still believes the old Friedman-Pinochet "chestnut" should read a year-old article by Reason's Brian Doherty on the subject of Friedman's "hardly-knew-the-guy" relationship with Pinochet and his brutal dictatorship.

But Klein has the goods on this old "chestnut." As she shows, Friedman and his Chicago Boys were not all that bothered by Pinochet's bloody rule. Quite the opposite, they recognized that their free market wet dream could never be realized in a functioning democracy and welcomed the opportunities opened up by the Chicago Boys-tutored dictatorships in Latin America's southern cone in the 1970s. In some cases Friedmantes (sic) worked with the coup plotters before they even came to power.

So Klein "has the goods" on the Friedman-Pinochet collaboration? Hitherto undisclosed demo tapes of Augusto and Milton at Big Pink? Photos of the two scoundrels playing racquetball in the torture chambers of Santiago stadium? Seeing as Zaitchik doesn't reference any of Klein's "goods" on Friedman, I consulted the book and—surprise—she pretty much agrees with Doherty's chronology and explication of the Friedman-Pinochet "relationship," though she's coy about it, eliding some of the important details (like the subject of Friedman's speech at the Catholic University of Chile). Nor does Zaitchik raise any specific objections to Doherty's piece, though he does grumble that it's a "year old."

So here are the "goods" on Friedman, regarding Chile, as presented in The Shock Doctrine: Klein says that proposals in the newly installed regime's economic plan "bore a striking resemblance to those found in Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom." Klein acknowledges that, throughout Pinochet's reign, Friedman spent only a few days in the country as a guest of a private organization, not the government, though he met once with Pinochet. Klein refers generically to the "Chicago Boys" and Friedman's "former students," from whom he accepted the burden of collusion with dicatorships (I should note that, as the former student of an editor at Nation Books, I assure him that he won't be held accountable for my positive view of Milton Friedman.)

Zaitchik too has such a hard time with this phantom connection that he performs a rather obvious slight of hand, effortlessly switching between Friedman and the more generic "Friedmantes" (sic); those associated with the regime from the coup's beginnings. Zaitchik—again effortlessly switching between the man and his disciples— concludes by citing approvingly a reason commenter who calls Milton Friedman, the three-foot tall Nobel Prize-winner, a "bloodthirsty scoundrel" (seriously). Amusingly, Zaitchik's previous contribution to Alternet begins with this sentence: "Admire him or despise him, it's tempting to think Fidel Castro..." Apparently there still exists a compelling debate on whether Castro is a good guy or a bad guy, but that Milton Friedman burns in the fires of hell. It's worth noting that Ms. Klein's moral outrage too is one-sided: a check of the index of The Shock Doctrine, Fences and Windows, and No Logo, and a quick search of Nexis and Google, find nary a word denouncing the almost 50 year dictatorship that has suffocated the people of Cuba.

Anyhow, if it is a critical review of Klein that he is after, I am happy to point Mr. Zaitchik in the right direction. For instance, George Mason economist Tyler Cowen says that Klein's methodology makes the book "a true economics disaster," branding her rhetoric "ridiculous." When interviewed by the New York Times, Anders Aslund, a Russia expert at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, called The Shock Doctrine's section on Russia "complete nonsense." Jeffrey Sachs, who says he broadly agrees with Klein, nevertheless told the Times that "she didn't really understand" what he was up to in the 1990s. This is a common theme with reviewers. The Financial Times Martin Wolf, reviewing one of her previous broadsides against globalization complained that "Klein's concept of democracy is as immature as her view of the economy." These, I suspect, are enough to keep the crew at Alternet occupied for a bit.

One final point: From our supposed lack of attentiveness to The Shock Doctrine, Zaitchik deduces that reason is "afraid" of Klein's book. If this was a question, rather than an accusation, I would assure him that this is not the case. On the other hand, after a quick perusal of the Alternet archives, I see no review of Bryan Caplan's hugely successful and widely reviewed book The Myth of the Rational Voter, excerpted in reason here. That Caplan so deftly and convincingly argues that voter's anti-market biases are, well, bad for democracy, and seeing as Alternet has yet to debunk Caplan's book, I suspect that Alex won't mind if I interpret his employers deafening silence as a damning concession.

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Comments to "The Angry Silence":

Pro Libertate | November 21, 2007, 2:13pm | #

You haven't commented on the merits of Mein Kampf, either, you know. Why, scared?

R C Dean | November 21, 2007, 2:14pm | #

Zaitchik too has such a hard time with this phantom connection that he performs a rather obvious slight of hand, effortlessly switching between Friedman and the more generic "Friedmantes" (sic)

We should be surprised that leftist/statist has no problem with collective responsibility?

Pro Libertate | November 21, 2007, 2:14pm | #

Or on Das Kapital, for that matter. Reason is obviously silent on all sorts of criticisms of free markets. How disappointing.

Cesar | November 21, 2007, 2:14pm | #

You haven't commented on the merits of Mein Kampf, either, you know. Why, scared?

Godwin'd out of the gate!

Pro Libertate | November 21, 2007, 2:17pm | #

Cesar,

I haven't seen your commentary on it, either, Cesar ☺

Jamie Kelly | November 21, 2007, 2:18pm | #

I've often thought that free-market economics and dictatorship go hand in hand.
Like in that ultra-individualist wonderland, the USSR. And Germany in the 1930s. And Cuba. And ...
Wait a minute.
If you read this, Zaitchik, please take note that I think you're an ignorant slit.

Cesar | November 21, 2007, 2:19pm | #

I haven't seen your commentary on it, either, Cesar ☺

I've never known anyone who has managed to get past 120 pages of that book. It is truly an awful read.

Jamie Kelly | November 21, 2007, 2:20pm | #

Anyone who doubts the contributions of Ayn Rand to the ethical, moral and political defense of capitalism, please keep this fucking turd Zaitchik in mind the next time you feel like flaming her.

Pro Libertate | November 21, 2007, 2:21pm | #

Cesar,

I didn't get that far. Some books are better read indirectly. I'll take my chances on the secondary source's bias or misunderstanding of the primary source in such cases.

First Little Pig | November 21, 2007, 2:23pm | #

Having heard her interviewed about the book twice and having viewed the short film on her site I can conclude that one does not have to read her book to know that it is a screed and that her grasp of economics is very limited.

Francisco Torres | November 21, 2007, 2:23pm | #

Typical ploy of Marxists is to make use of fallacies like, in this case, Poisoning of the Well, by associating Friedman's visit to Chile with his stance on free markets, basically saying that, if Friedman somehow "advised" Pinochet and, being Friedman a free-market advocate, then free-markets must be a bad thing.

Cesar | November 21, 2007, 2:25pm | #

Her little film is incredibly stupid. It says nothing. MURDER! WAR! CHAOS! TORTURE!!!!!!! CAPITALISM IS BAD MMMKAY?

If thats anything like her book, don't expect me to bother reading it.

Fluffy | November 21, 2007, 2:27pm | #

Well, "of course" libertarianism is incompatible with "a functioning democracy", because "everybody knows" that in true democracy, the people would vote to take away the surplus of anyone who had more property than anyone else. Therefore, any time this doesn't happen, you do not have a "functioning" democracy.

thoreau | November 21, 2007, 2:27pm | #

Is it really necessary to fire up the keyboards and do battle every time somebody says something about Friedman and Chile? Do we need a hero that badly, and does the case for a less regulated economy really rise or fall on that incident?

Mind you, I'm not suggesting that all of the criticisms leveled on that incident are fair, but to have a Pavlovian response to mentions of that event seems ill-advised. It puts free marketeers in a position of being easily manipulated into debates where they can be cast (by skilled debaters) as dictator apologists.

Pro Libertate | November 21, 2007, 2:33pm | #

Reason hasn't reviewed the latest Harry Potter book, either. Why is Reason silent? Does it fear the book?

thoreau,

Because it's a throughly debunked and inaccurate statement? Why allow something like that to be said without a challenge? It's akin to Edward's constant droning about Ron Paul's Nazi contributors. Use an argumentative fallacy? Then expect to get called out on it. Remarks with a few facts and with lots of innuendo and bald lies thrown in aren't something I care to accept. Especially when there are those who want the false conclusions to take on meme status.

Pig Mannix | November 21, 2007, 2:37pm | #

It's not like everyone necessarily agrees Pinochet was the worst thing since Hitler, anyway. Paul Weyrich points out that had Pinochet not staged his coup, Chile would have likely come under Communist control, which would have been even worse. He has a point. Realistically, Pinochet may well have been the best of a choice of bad options.

ed | November 21, 2007, 2:37pm | #

Anyone who doubts the contributions of Ayn Rand to the ethical, moral and political defense of capitalism...

...probably has not read her.

Episiarch | November 21, 2007, 2:37pm | #

I'm confused as to why anybody gives a shit about this dude's complaint. Anybody who is dumb enough to take an airhead like Klein remotely seriously, and doesn't realize how that makes them look, is not worth responding to.

Jamie Kelly | November 21, 2007, 2:38pm | #

Go to the original article at AlterNet and look at the comments section. That should give you some idea of the intelligence level of the little brownshirts who post there.

Big Nanny | November 21, 2007, 2:41pm | #

Every time I hear her talking I get the feeling that she, like so many other people are confusing free markets with corruption. If you prizatize something and it becomes more expensive, something is wrong. For example, is it really cheaper to pay blackwater guys $25,000 a month then to recruit more people?

LFB | November 21, 2007, 2:42pm | #

Now and then Alternet gets something worth reading but far too often they border on the hysteria and conspiracy mongering that is popular on the Left and which inspires Klein. They are transparently dishonest in their approach to smear Friedman.

Between about 1957 and 1970 some 100 students from Chile studied at the University of Chicago and these individuals were called "the Chicago Boys" but apparently few of them actually studied under Friedman. They were not friends of Friedman or mentored by him. They were part of a program run by Prof. Arnold Harberger.

As best I can tell they argue that Friedman is tied to Pinochet because Pinochet implemented some policies on economics espoused by some individuals who had attended the University of Chicago and who might have taken some classes from Prof. Friedman. Therefore Friedman bears responsibility for policies that Pinochet implemented which had nothing to do with economics or were not tied to suggestions by any of the so-called Chicago Boys.This responsibility exists even though the policies in question that were repressive went contrary to any policies Friedman himself has suggested. This is incredibly tenuous and I think just pure dishonesty.

val | November 21, 2007, 2:43pm | #

From the comments at alternet, regarding reason
I've been checking out thier website for about a year now and it always struck me as ... how should I put it... bourgeois.

Har har, welcome to the club fellas, we're movin up in the world.

Cesar | November 21, 2007, 2:45pm | #

I've been checking out thier website for about a year now and it always struck me as ... how should I put it... bourgeois.

And Alternet is the bastion of the lumpen proletariat? Give me a break.

Peter | November 21, 2007, 2:49pm | #

It always strikes me that most of the people who favor free markets have actually studied economics, whereas those that condemn them as the ill of a free society more often than not have no working knowledge of it.

Guy Montag | November 21, 2007, 2:51pm | #

I saw Ms. Klein on C-SPAN's Book TV not long ago. She is as, um, stable and rational as Noam Chomsky. Her facts are about as 'accurate' as Jeremy Scahill's when speaking of his novel book "Blackwater" too.

Actually, if you like watching train wrecks in slow motion, she is a great interview.

Cesar | November 21, 2007, 2:52pm | #

It always strikes me that most of the people who favor free markets have actually studied economics, whereas those that condemn them as the ill of a free society more often than not have no working knowledge of it.

Even Marx had a lot of praise for capitalism, even though he obviously thought it could be replaced with something better. Today's left won't even go that far.

Pro Libertate | November 21, 2007, 2:55pm | #

Bourgeois? Who says that anymore?

Middle class values seem pretty good to me, compared with others. And the insane heights to which liberal, free market societies have reached are undeniable. Egad.

Episiarch | November 21, 2007, 2:59pm | #

I've been checking out thier website for about a year now and it always struck me as ... how should I put it... bourgeois.

HAHAHAHAHA (wipes tears from eyes)

It's funny when some keyboard jockey Marxist insults the vast majority of their neighbors and probably the class where they themselves originated. Because they're above that now, you see?

stubby | November 21, 2007, 3:00pm | #

I really hate the "you must be scared, that's why you won't pay attention to me" line. It's among the most juvenile styles of argument, fit only for the playground, which is why it is so popular on a certain type of lefty blog.

Note I say a "certain type." Not all types, of course.

Obligatory righty blog bash - their favorite juvenile style of debate tends to the ad hominem.

spur | November 21, 2007, 3:00pm | #

Guy,

I think you are doing Noam a disservice -- most libertarians could at least agree with 20% of his positions and that he is an actual intellectual and not a shrill shill.

Guy Montag | November 21, 2007, 3:01pm | #

Seems I need to add bourgeois to this list.

Salvius | November 21, 2007, 3:02pm | #

And Alternet is the bastion of the lumpen proletariat?
You have to understand: To a certain segment of the population, "bourgeois" doesn't actually mean "upper/middle class". It's just a generic epithet for anyone they don't like.

My personal favorite example of this is this Amazon.com list I found, "Films for the bourgeoisie to walk out on", which includes such popular working-class titles as "Un Chien Andalou" and "Maya Deren: Experimental Films". Lord knows the proletariat just line up around the block for the latest Lars von Trier and Guy Maddin films, don't they?

R. Totale | November 21, 2007, 3:05pm | #

Can we address what's really important?

Zaitchik too has such a hard time with this phantom connection that he performs a rather obvious slight of hand

Michael, it's sleight of hand.

Guy Montag | November 21, 2007, 3:05pm | #

I really hate the "you must be scared, that's why you won't pay attention to me" line. It's among the most juvenile styles of argument, fit only for the playground, which is why it is so popular on a certain type of lefty blog.

One of the folks here, that I ignore 99.999% of the time, tries that one on me on occasion. Doesn't work to well though.

Guy Montag | November 21, 2007, 3:07pm | #

and that he is an actual intellectual and not a shrill shill.

WHAT? Which libertarians would agree with that!

Cesar | November 21, 2007, 3:09pm | #

WHAT? Which libertarians would agree with that!

In the area hes actually an expert on (namely, linguistics) he is intelligent. In the area which he pretends to be an expert on (economics and politics) hes a shill.

Pro Libertate | November 21, 2007, 3:10pm | #

I remember active Communists on campus, and they demonstrated why the whole "proletariat" concept in Communism is a fraud. Communists want to speak for the masses, but they don't really want the masses to have any say in anything. Which is one reason why Communism always seems to result in totalitarian rule.

Using the proletariat to get to power has an excellent history, from Caesar to the French Revolution to joe (just kidding). With similar results each time for the lower classes.

Jamie Kelly | November 21, 2007, 3:11pm | #

Noam Chomsky is an actual intellectual ... in the field of linguistics.
As a historian, he's grossly dishonest and a leftist propagandist.

Jamie Kelly | November 21, 2007, 3:12pm | #

Ah, hail Cesar, you beat me to it.

Guy Montag | November 21, 2007, 3:13pm | #

Communism/Socialism is the only method yet divised that can pull power and wealth from the producers and place it into the hands of career poets.

Cesar | November 21, 2007, 3:16pm | #

I remember active Communists on campus, and they demonstrated why the whole "proletariat" concept in Communism is a fraud. Communists want to speak for the masses, but they don't really want the masses to have any say in anything. Which is one reason why Communism always seems to result in totalitarian rule.

You can blame Lenin for that little innovation in Marxism. He thought giving the vote to the masses was a waste of time, because the masses were too stupid and always chose--according to him--the wrong people to rule. Therefore, there had to be a crisis where a "vanguard party" could seize power and implement the Communist program in the name of the Proletariat, because Communist ideas weren't popular otherwise.

Hmmmm....maybe Naomi Klein is the pot calling the kettle black here.

Peter | November 21, 2007, 3:20pm | #

I know this makes me sound irrationally reactionary, and that I'm above it, but sometimes the id just gets the better of oneself ...

I want to fight Noam Chomsky. I mean an actual physical fight. He angers me on that kind of primal, visceral level.

He's just such a total douche.

P Brooks | November 21, 2007, 3:29pm | #

Friedman and his Chicago Boys were not all that bothered by Pinochet's bloody rule.

If it is permissible to equate Milton Friedman with anybody who ever studied at the University of Chicago, one cannot help but wonder why the faculty of Yale have not been lynched en masse by the alternetters for the depredations of their intellectual spawn, a certain George W Bush.

Les | November 21, 2007, 3:29pm | #

I think Chomsky's political and economic theories are highly suspect, but I think he did a fine job of documenting U.S. hypocrisy during the Cold War in "Deterring Democracy" and "Manufacturing Consent." If anyone knows of any factual inaccuracies in those books, I'd appreciate hearing about them.

Episiarch | November 21, 2007, 3:31pm | #

To see Chomsky's "intellectualism", I suggest viewing the Ali G interview with him.

Admittedly, Noam is kind of old, but man is it funny.

SxCx | November 21, 2007, 3:31pm | #

Ha! My first taste of blogger notoriety.

I was a bit bummed that no one at Reason took on the case, simply because of its higher profile, but completely acknowledge there are plenty of capable defenders willing to do so.

Or maybe this is my Field Of Dreams moment...?!

Les | November 21, 2007, 3:35pm | #

I want to fight Noam Chomsky. I mean an actual physical fight. He angers me on that kind of primal, visceral level.

I understand that anger, but I try to save it for people who have actually done harm to others, like Kissinger, Castro, and countless local D.A.'s and other assorted law enforcement officials.

stubby | November 21, 2007, 3:40pm | #

Reminds of a line from one of my favorite space opera series, the Miles Vorkosigan books by Lois McMaster Bujold; Miles' mother is from a world governed as a republic, and his dad from a world ruled by an Emperor. Miles' mother says that most democrats can adapt to living in under a monarcy, so long as they get to be aristocrats. Most people who think of themselves as socialists or communists would never entertain the idea that they might be one of the proletariat in their workers' paradise.

dhex is legend | November 21, 2007, 4:02pm | #

who'd want to fight noam chomsky?

outside of montblog, i mean. but like, real honest americans?

Franklin Harris | November 21, 2007, 4:06pm | #

The fact that the left continues to harp on the non-issue of Friedman's trip to Chile is all the proof we need that leftists cannot refute his actual ideas. You'll notice the left doesn't bother to bring of Hayek much at all anymore (except to try to incorporate his thought into their own), probably because Hayek doesn't have a straw man in his closet. But I do think it's funny that Friedman is the American left's new bete noir, replacing Reagan. Hey, at least the left is picking more substantive targets.

javier | November 21, 2007, 4:13pm | #

What exactly is her definition of a free society??? pure democracy??

"Mankind will in time discover that unbridled majorities are as tyrannical and cruel as unlimited despots." John Adams

Fuck. Does anybody else just have a feeling of despair about the years to come?

Peter | November 21, 2007, 4:18pm | #

If Noam's premise that dissent is so stifled as to be effectively muted, why is his flapping God damned jaw so relentlessly omnipresent in the so-called big bad corporate media? I have been aware of his ponderous complaints since I've been tuning into TV media outlets and print as well. He debated William Buckley on Firing Line in the sixties. I refuse to take a man seriously who claims the media silences dissent, when he frequently gains access to a soap box time and time again on national and international television, as well as through major publishing houses and news journals. Maybe he just needs a good smack in the face and a Coke.

GILMORE | November 21, 2007, 4:19pm | #

Jeez, I went over to the Alternet site, and man are they a self-satisfied lot. I mean, all blogs are full of self-satisfied bozos... but someone there described Reason as "bourgeois"... I mean, that got a good chuckle out of me. The irony is too much. I can't believe ardent leftists still use that term without going..."uhhh. Wait. No, thats us, actually".

I think they tend to mean "elitist" when they say that because we dont gush about "WE NEED TEH GOVMENT TO PROTECT THE CHILDREN AND MAKE MY CAR RUN ON SOY".

anyone who has any basic grasp of economics is basically suspicious in their eyes. If it's not armchair-revolutionary rhetoric and stroking their conscience.... it's EVIL CAPITALISTS!!!

exactly | November 21, 2007, 4:20pm | #

I know a former commie who, now that he has a higher paying job frequently complains about how much he pays in taxes, soc security, etc, and how little he gets paid in relation to people with much lower-skilled jobs.

predictable.

Fluffy | November 21, 2007, 4:24pm | #

Right, because it is so bouregois to stand up for hookers, gamblers, heroin users, and guys who computer animate fake child pornography. Bourgeois causes all.

Reinmoose | November 21, 2007, 4:25pm | #

well observed Fluffy. And this was from a person who claimed to be observing Reason for over a year...
Obviously didn't observe too hard, eh?

joe | November 21, 2007, 4:31pm | #

You know, he's right. Reason still hasn't mounted a serious consideration of the book.

I can understand the author's disappointment. Two years ago, Julian Sanchez would have put together a long, thoughtful piece, taking into account the strengths, weaknesses, and peculiarities of the book.

But now Julian's gone, and there are people like Michael Moynihan taking his place. More's the pity.

MattXIV | November 21, 2007, 4:32pm | #

Between this and the Rand hit piece on HuffPo where the guy thought Roland Kirk was an important conservative and tried to argue that fascism was an invidualist ideology in order to tag Rand as a fascist, it's a good day for laughably bad critiques of libertarian icons.

bonewah | November 21, 2007, 4:35pm | #

Oh man, an intellectual bitch slapping is enough for me to come out of lurker mode. Get em, Moynihan.

Paul | November 21, 2007, 4:44pm | #

I'm no language Nazi, believe you me, but I believe that it's "Sleight of hand", not "slight of hand"

Otherwise, excellent post.

Paul | November 21, 2007, 4:47pm | #

Joe, methinks you're right, if one were to do a long piece. This was a blog post, so I'm not sure I'd be overly critical about the lack of balance.

joe | November 21, 2007, 4:55pm | #

It's a choice to only write the snarky blog posts, Paul.

Julian Sanchez would have been all over this, and would have had the stones to acknowledge when Klein had a point.

This place has gone downhill since Virginia Postrel was editor.

I'm going to get a subscription, then cancel it.

For a...

Juan | November 21, 2007, 5:08pm | #

If the other reviews are any indication, the reason this book hasn't been seriously considered is probably because it doesn't deserve to.

Franklin Harris | November 21, 2007, 5:11pm | #

Joe, if I were to guess, I'd say a review of Klein's book is probably in the offing for the print edition. So, you might want to get a subscription and then wait a few months before canceling it.

In any case, I doubt anyone will top Tyler Cowen's review. Reviewing Klein is like beating a dead cliche at this point.

joe | November 21, 2007, 5:18pm | #

Franklin Harris, all,

You'll have to forgive if I don't take the words of Yankees fans when they assure me that the Yankee-bashing book is very poorly reasoned and written.

I come here to see ideas battle it out, and the witchy snark, such as the b.s. "point" about a decontextualized dependent clause about Fidel Castro, isn't the battle of ideas. It's just jeering and hooting.

All I've found out about Klein's book I learned from Reason Online, and never before the link to this Alternet post did I find out that the book contained anything about the role of natural disasters and wars in Washington Consensus economic reforms.

It's the central thesis of her book.

joe | November 21, 2007, 5:18pm | #

Which is to say, I hope so, Mr. Harris.

Peter | November 21, 2007, 5:19pm | #

MattXIV,

Just read the Huffety-Puffety post piece on Rand. It never ceases to amaze me how liberals consistently throw their skirts over their heads over Ayn Rand. She incites more hatred than George W. in some circles. And what I think is most telling is that he does not simply dismiss her as a crackpot, but that she is dangerous. The only reason she might be dangerous to a man like this is if the very notion of access to her work is dangerous to him. Perhaps he might feel better if any material anathema to his utopian world vision was inaccessible, thus far less dangerous. Who's a fascist now?

And speaking of fascist, he claims that he does not use the term colloquially ... no, he does so in the most egregious misapplication. Nazi ideology, as anyone who's read Mein Kampf or any of Hitler's numerous speeches will know, is centered around a national collectivism. The notions of the Ubermensch that were being referenced were held up as an ideals for society; a model for the German soul to accomplish after the fact of the country's deep national insecurities following WWI. In fact Hitler himself said that he was putting into practice what Marx and Engels only wrote and hypothesized about. National Socialism was precisely that ... he objected to Communism purely on the basis that it was internationalist in its philosophy.

Peter | November 21, 2007, 5:21pm | #

BTW ... I'm in no way a Rand worshiper. But that guy was just off base.

Jamie Kelly | November 21, 2007, 5:25pm | #

Anyone who claims that Ayn Rand was a proponent of Nazi ideology has immediately struck out, and I refuse to read on/listen.
A woman who spent her entire defending the idea and ideals of individual liberty against the whims of the state and state-sponsored majorities is the exact opposite of a Nazi.
So many goddamn liberals think Nazi = "hyper-capitalist." And that just goes to show the absolute myopism of intellectually lazy thinking.

Jamie Kelly | November 21, 2007, 5:26pm | #

Not to mention intellectual dishonesty.

joe | November 21, 2007, 5:31pm | #

I agree with Alger Hiss: the whiff of the gas chamber surrounds Rand's books - not because of the details of her ideology, but her misanthropic approach to politics in general.

No good will come out of political ideologies that divide humanity into Productive and Parasite classes, and fantase about the former's revenge on the latter.

It isn't Randism that makes my skin crawl, as much as I disagree with much of it; it's Rand.

And save your breath about the tenets of objectivism making such things impossible; Marxism started out as an anti-govenrment ideology, too. When you start talking about Enemies of the ____________ - not just opponents, but enemies, you're walking down a path, and Rand was all about the enemies.

joe | November 21, 2007, 5:33pm | #

D'oh! Not Alger Hiss, Whittaker Chambers.

Whittaker Chambers wrote that "the whiff of the gas chamber" surrounds Atlas Shrugs in National Review magazine, back in the 50s.

Dave Woycechowsky | November 21, 2007, 5:33pm | #

You know, he's right. Reason still hasn't mounted a serious consideration of the book.

I can understand the author's disappointment. Two years ago, Julian Sanchez would have put together a long, thoughtful piece, taking into account the strengths, weaknesses, and peculiarities of the book.

But now Julian's gone, and there are people like Michael Moynihan taking his place. More's the pity.


I was going to write a post, but then I saw that joe wrote exactly the words in my head. I miss the Sanch (but I hear he is at TechDirt now).

R. Totale | November 21, 2007, 5:52pm | #

I don't know. I mean, there are lots of books written about the negative aspects of free market capitalism. What makes this book so special that it's worthy of comment that they haven't reviewed it?
Besides, based on summaries I've read, it seems to conflate Bush and Co. with free markets, which is insane. Yes, I know I should the read the whole book before dismissing it but I ain't got that kind of time.

thoreau | November 21, 2007, 5:56pm | #

No good will come out of political ideologies that divide humanity into Productive and Parasite classes, and fantase about the former's revenge on the latter.

That reminds me of an interview I read with one of the authors of "Left Behind." The guy referred to a passage in which Jesus smites people who had lived good lives but weren't believers. The author considered this a sad passage of the book. Yes, he believes that Jesus will do that, but he finds it sad.

He was dismayed when some of his readers wrote to say that they like that scene.

I think there are some parallels here.

Robert | November 21, 2007, 6:00pm | #

Yeah, it's lost a lot. I still can't get over their adoption of that Wired style layout, just as I entered the bifocals age. The only thing that improved was the table of contents. Everything else -- typeface, colors, general layout, graphic design, placement of page numbers -- looks like it was cooked up by some wise guy who thought "form follows function" was to be mocked wherever possible. What possible reason could there be to put one article over several pages in a thin column on the right on a deeply colored background, other than to be a headache?

And delivery has gotten to the point where even a replacement Nov. issue sent 1st class got delayed weeks (FedEx still gets thru), but I don't know whether to blame the P.O., the guys in Mt. Morris, or the head office for that. Dec. '07 hasn't arrived yet, and they tell me it's not officially late until Dec. 8 or something like that.

Also, the general "attitude" of the magazine has shifted in a way that reminds me of Mad's piece on non-conformists. You start with a crowd ("In Unity There Is Strength"), then some people migrate away from the crowd ("We're Different"). But then the latter grows into a crowd too ("We're Different?"), so some have to break away from that ("We're Mad!"). Reason too apparently thought being non-conformist wasn't good enough.

OTOH we now have Bagge, and he makes up for a lot of losses.

Paul | November 21, 2007, 6:05pm | #

Joe...

...magazine called...

Am I close?

Paul | November 21, 2007, 6:10pm | #

R totale:

Besides, based on summaries I've read, it seems to conflate Bush and Co. with free markets

Bingo. Which is why libertarians are conflated with "right wing extremists". When you know your enemy is capitalism, all your enemies become capitalists.

Charlie (CO) | November 21, 2007, 6:17pm | #

Just to be fair, I suspect the reason Castro isn't burning in Hell now is that the son of a bitch ain't dead yet.

Fluffy | November 21, 2007, 6:17pm | #

Yeah, Joe, Whittaker Chambers was such a credible personality.

Sometimes you're a huge cocksucker. But then I suppose you know that.

There are certainly ways in which Objectivism could lead to political violence. I for one think that John Brown would have made a decent Objectivist, and he would happily have slaughtered millions of slaveowning southerners in their beds. Then again, so would I.

The question becomes whether the target of the political violence is morally appropriate.

Peter | November 21, 2007, 6:20pm | #

Yes - JOE

But Marx did vehemently protest private ownership of property as a fomenter of class tyranny.

This is NOT hate mongering by any means, no.

I, for one, welcome our property-confiscating bureaucrat overlords.

togolosh | November 21, 2007, 6:22pm | #

Klein makes errors with regard to Friedman himself, but the fact remains (as she documents) that people claiming to be proponents of Chicago school economics consistently endorse and promote policies that result in massive corruption, massive concentration of wealth in the hands of the most unscrupulous, widespread poverty, and all too often, death squads. That isn't a refutation of Friedman's theories, but it's a damn big warning sign to anyone who either wants to put them into practice or who is being lobbied to put them into practice.

Marx didn't recommend Gulags, but just about every attempt to put his theories into practice has ended up with some form of reeducation camps. Similarly, the kind of economic shock therapy beloved of Chicago School economic advisers has a disturbing correlation with corruption and death squads.

The theory may be fine, but if every attempt to put it fully into practice causes widespread suffering, perhaps it is a little... incomplete?

joe | November 21, 2007, 6:25pm | #

Take the meds, Fluffy.

joe | November 21, 2007, 6:28pm | #

Peter,

For future reference, when I compare somebody - like, say, Karl Marx - to Ayn Rand, it's neither a compliment, nor a statement about the decency and harmlessness of their politics.

SIV | November 21, 2007, 6:31pm | #

Which is why libertarians are conflated with "right wing extremists"

Libertarians ARE right wing extremists.

thoreau | November 21, 2007, 6:35pm | #

The question becomes whether the target of the political violence is morally appropriate.

Fluffy: Just so we're clear on this, are you claiming that one can be a libertarian and endorse political violence?

If so, then I'm gonna have to beg to differ.

Juan | November 21, 2007, 6:36pm | #

Let's see....

massive corruption

Chile is the most honest country in South America (and I think Latin America) by far.

massive concentration of wealth in the hands of the most unscrupulous

You got me on income concentration, however it is a feature (or should I say bug) of the whole continent. Check out that Chicago Economics paradise, Brazil. And I am not in a position to judge the scruples of the guys who get the blunt of the wealth, but then again, I wouldn't trust Klein's assessment.

widespread poverty

Chile is reducing poverty at a faster pace, and from a lower baseline, than the rest of LatAm.

and all too often, death squads.

Which were already there when the Chicago Boys started to influence policy, left a few year later, and Chile is the LatAm country where they are least likely to return (except perhaps Costa Rica).

Pig Mannix | November 21, 2007, 6:40pm | #

The theory may be fine, but if every attempt to put it fully into practice causes widespread suffering, perhaps it is a little... incomplete?

I agree that the assumption that you can slap a standard template of political/economic ideas on any J. Random Population, without any regard for their distinct peculiarities, and expect a predictable result is overly simplistic (see Bringing Democracy to Iraq).

OTOH, it's hard to ignore that while Pinochet is no hero, Chile today is a relatively free and prosperous nation. How likely is it that they would have gotten to that point without him?

Fluffy | November 21, 2007, 6:45pm | #

Thoreau -

Not to go all Godwin on you here, but if you woke up one morning and found yourself living as a libertarian in a Nazi state, are you seriously asserting that you would not be entitled to employ political violence?

Maybe the problem here is definitional. I'm using the phrase "political violence" to mean armed insurrection against agents of the state. The American Revolution was political violence.

The definition of "agents of the state" can be somewhat elastic under some circumstances - I would say that it would include party officials of a one-party state, even if those persons held no official state or military position [it's open season on Gauleiters if you find yourself in the Nazi state, as far as I am concerned] and in the case of slave states the master / owner and his employees are for all practical purposes conspiring in the use of state violence against slaves, so slaveholders are legitimate targets also.

There's really absolutely nothing here that's medication-worthy, Joe, unless it's your position that the victims of state oppression have no right to strike back against the state using violence. It's my position that they do, and that in instances where the state is very large, that could lead to a lot of violence. Is that the same as gas chambers? I don't think it is, for any number of reasons.

And you really shouldn't talk about meds when you're the one offering up the insights of Whittaker Chambers as if they were valuable. Hey, give us some David Horowitz next. That would be fun.

thoreau | November 21, 2007, 6:48pm | #

Pig Mannix-

It may very well be that Chile's current condition is better than it otherwise would have been had different events transpired. That is not, however, a reason to forgive violent dictatorship. There's generally more than one way to reach an outcome, and so if the path is a bloody one the outcome is insufficient to justify the blood spilled.

That's a longer way of saying that the ends don't justify the means.

I get the people who want to correct misstatements about Friedman. I'm not sure it's worth firing up the keyboards every time we're baited into that discussion, but I see the point. I do not, however, get the people who want to soft-pedal Pinochet. The least bad things that can be said about him are that other dictators in history have been worse, and that Chile ultimately fared better than it might have in some alternative scenario. His own very real crimes cannot be excused by the crimes of others, or the crimes committed in alternative timelines.

joe | November 21, 2007, 7:04pm | #

Just so I've got this straight: it is a disgusting slander to suggest that the conservative economists who supported Pinochet were at all supportive of his politics - which, by the way, were necessary at the time, protected Chilean freedom and prosperity, and should not be denounced.

Fluffy,

your position that the victims of state oppression have no right to strike back against the state using violence

Wow, hallucinations now. I take it back - stop taking the medication and call your doctor immediately.

Mr. Nice Guy | November 21, 2007, 7:05pm | #

"Libertarians ARE right wing extremists."
We've gone through this road before...
Which wing of the right-wing extremists are libertarians members of?
The wing that reveres religious authority and hates religious dissent and diversity (as Burke, de Maistre and other conservative founding fathers did and as modern GOP leaders such as James Dobson do)?
The wing that revered aristocracy and monarchy (as again Burke and the Tories did, as well as the more modern Richard Weaver and the patrician WFB)?
The jingoistic militaristic wing (how many GOP candidates are against the war again)?

joe | November 21, 2007, 7:06pm | #

I have never come anywhere near the defenses of political brutality I see in this thread on any of the Chavez threads.

Nice double standards, "freedom-lovers."

joe | November 21, 2007, 7:08pm | #

MNG,

You're members of the plutocratic wing of the right-wing extremists.

Which is why you see so many defenses of people like Pinochet, who utilize state violence on behalf of his country's plutocracy, and why you have to waterboard 95% of the regulars to get them to admit that forming a union isn't a crime against humanity.

highnumber | November 21, 2007, 7:10pm | #

So you admit that you are, in fact, Chavez?

SIV | November 21, 2007, 7:14pm | #

MNG

European examples don't fit America.

Yes we have been through this before.
Collectivist__________________________Individualist

Libertarians fall on the far right of that continuum.

To pre-empt or answer:
Hitler=leftist
Bush= moderate center-right
Ron Paul= most right-wing candidate in GOP race

thoreau | November 21, 2007, 7:17pm | #

You're members of the plutocratic wing of the right-wing extremists.

I'm not!

Mr. Nice Guy | November 21, 2007, 7:27pm | #

Hitler was a leftist huh? Could of fooled all those communist party members he killed, and his nearly pathological hatred of the USSR.

It's nuts to say "European examples don't fit" when leaders of conservatism revere European conservatives. Russell Kirk, America's pre-eminent conservative wrote more on Burke for example than any other figure. And oh, de Maistre figured quite prominently as well in his work.

Do you ever READ conservatives, influential ones, from history rather than the latest conservative blog? You really find a lot of common cause with Richard Weaver and Russell Kirk with libertarianism? I just don't see it...

America was capitalist from the start, so naturally our "conservative" types have at times paid homage to capitalism. But the second they don't like something capitalist (the selling of pornography or political dissent) they shut it down quickly. That is because capitalism is simply not that important in the conservative mindset, tradition and authority are. Liberals and libertarians agree on liberty as fundamental, one just thinks government can get you there and the other really, really disagrees.

joe-you're so in the heat of the argument that I guess you forget, I'm not a libertarian. I spend just a little less time than you do on this site arguing against libertarians.

Peter | November 21, 2007, 7:29pm | #

Also, let's not lay the entire blame of Pinochet's tyranny on the doorstep of the capitalist free market system. There was a lot more at work in that regime that enabled the atrocities that occurred there, and they were due as much if not more to the nature of the nascent political system as they were to supply and demand. I'm saying no one should have trusted such a fledgling system to embrace civil liberty from the get-go, and it is too convenient and lazy for so-called intellectuals to lay the blame with an economic theory alone when the ruling elite was a bunch of military thugs who would have run amok either way.

Mr. Nice Guy | November 21, 2007, 7:31pm | #

I used to flirt with conservatism. I read all the biggies, Burke, Kirk, Weaver, National Review, Modern Age...When you get past the blog type stuff there is an amazing subculture there. Did you know that Walter Scott's works are revered there? It's all this romanticization of times that were more orthodox religiously, agrarian, aristocratic ("the age of chivalry is gone, the age of sophists and calculators has taken its place" Burke moaned), unchanging, timeless...All the things that most libertarians are not in my experience. Hard core conservatives do not watch South Park, they partake in the Latin Mass...

Daze | November 21, 2007, 7:35pm | #

I skimmed it at Borders. The best parts are where Klein laments the collapse of the Soviet Union, because Gorbachev had succeeded in turning it into a democratic socialist paradise.

Mr. Nice Guy | November 21, 2007, 7:37pm | #

Now, SIV, if you want to talk about collectivism within liberalism and conservatism, now that is more interesting...Collectivism has become important in liberalism, especially since the Progressive era. For a long time liberals thought getting government out of the way or to be neutral was the key (note Jefferson's and Paine's liberalism [he was thought of as a radical by his opponents, in fact a crazy athiest one], the early free speech and religious dissent movements or even the early labor movement which just tried to fight the labor injunctions of the government), but they often now look towards government to secure more "liberty" (I actually agree with them a lot on this). Conservatives though have long been concerned with "order" and historically have enjoyed collectivsim from non-government institutions (the Church, and I mean that with a big C since they traditionally supported government support for an established church) and government ones (the military). Collectivism and individualism transcend liberal/conservative...

Les | November 21, 2007, 7:47pm | #

How likely is it that they would have gotten to that point without him (Pinochet)?

Thoreau said it best, but I'll just add, who knows and who cares? He was a scumbag of the highest order and his methods were unacceptable to any thinking, feeling individual (especially anyone who leans libertarian). Ditto for his pal, Kissinger (whose death I will celebrate even more than Castro's).

Juan | November 21, 2007, 7:48pm | #

Thought exercise time. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Friedman offered economic advice to Pinochet (either directly or through his students), and that he did so in full knowledge of the regime's brutality. Is that really a bad thing?

IIRC, Friedman was a believer on economic freedoms and prosperity begetting political freedoms, and as far as I'm aware academic research backs up this view (tells you something about the West's recent attempts to "export" democracy, doesn't it?). And, if your goal is to promote democracy and stifle dictatorships, shouldn't the results of the strategies towards Pinochet versus those used on Castro, Kim et al make you reflect on this a little? Even if you're not actually advising the bad guy, not isolating him can have a positive (but probably smaller) effect by taking away the excuses.

It is kinda funny that the end of the North American political spectrum that blasts Friedman for his attitude towards Pinochet tends to be the same that wants more openness towards Cuba (for good reason). I'd like to believe that there is more behind this than the ideological persuasions of each dictator.

SIV | November 21, 2007, 7:50pm | #

MNG

American Conservatives "shut down political dissent"? Got some examples? There are plenty for the American Left.

European definitions of Conservative don't fit because their tradition is one of Royalty and class. The "good old days" in American History is radical minarchist revolution.

I states that libertarians are right wing extremists, not that they are Conservatives.
Libertarians see Conservatives as "too statist"
whereas Conservatives tend to see libertarians
(as does the Left) as.....extremists. I haven't read Doherty's book but I recall modern libertarianism having some roots in Goldwater supporters,YAFers, and even Birchers (aka The Far Right).

The hostility of Nazis to Communists was one of rivals to power, not opposites.Stalin is not "Right-Wing" because he killed the "Left-Wing" Trotsky.

Dave W. | November 21, 2007, 7:51pm | #

I'm not!

What do you think of the latest taser vid, t.?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IMaMYL_shxc

SIV | November 21, 2007, 8:01pm | #

MNG,

You are conflating Classical Liberalism with
Left/Liberalism.

As for Pinochet we should apply the Roy Bean inquest model.Before you can file murder charges you have to determine if the deceased needed killin'.

Les | November 21, 2007, 8:05pm | #

As for Pinochet we should apply the Roy Bean inquest model.Before you can file murder charges you have to determine if the deceased needed killin'.

I'm just assuming you're joking. Hoping, really.

Peter | November 21, 2007, 8:06pm | #

Juan,

That was one of the more astute observations about political selectiveness I've heard. I've long agreed that regimes identical in their abuses and tyranny tend to draw unequal heat based on their ideologies.

Mr. Nice Guy | November 21, 2007, 8:09pm | #

SIV
In Mein Kampf Hitler goes on and on about the "Red Evil." He might have been too collectivist for your tastes, but he hated collectivists of his day. Ditto Franco for example. All of his glory of the past and family values talk marks him as a conservative easy. Again, liberals have their collectivist and so does the right.
Political dissent? Heck, I can give you an easy example SIV, right from the start: the Alien and Sedition Acts. If you read the campaign literature of the day, or heck just reference Kirk again, it's evident that the Adams administration of the Federalists was the "conservative" one. And at the Omega end, look at today: who wants to enforce the Espionage Act against reporters, liberals or conservatives?

thoreau | November 21, 2007, 8:18pm | #

To steal a phrase from the esteemed dhex, Pinochet apologists are the right wing version of the college kid in a Che t-shirt.

Mr. Nice Guy | November 21, 2007, 8:22pm | #

The very term Right and Left wing come from where factions sat in the legislature following the French Revolution. They were differentiated not by the amount of relative collectivism, but by their deference to change and on the other hand tradition.

SIV's categorization of libertarians as Right does not fit. Here is an easy example, where would one put a person or movement dedicated to an orthodox theocracy or orthodox religion in general? It would defy common sense and usage to call that person a "left winger."

Mr. Nice GUy | November 21, 2007, 8:33pm | #

I guess what I am trying to say is that defining "left and right" along collectivism lines is contrary to the common and historical use of these terms. More appropriate is to define them along the lines of deference to tradition/authority (right) and deference to change/liberty (left). In this sense most libertarians, with their low deference to authority and tradition would be extreme left wingers (though individualist ones), while there would be a handful of libertarian right wingers (Rockwell I should think).

Pig Mannix | November 21, 2007, 8:49pm | #

To steal a phrase from the esteemed dhex, Pinochet apologists are the right wing version of the college kid in a Che t-shirt.

I wasn't aware that pointing out that, bad as he was, under the circumstances, he wasn't the worst possible alternative amounted to apologizing for him.

But at least it would fit on a bumper-sticker.

Fluffy | November 21, 2007, 8:53pm | #

Joe, the way you just selectively quoted my post is a new low in dishonesty and bad faith, even for you. Starting after the word "unless" completely changes the meaning of my post. I guess Jennifer was right about you.

Fluffy | November 21, 2007, 8:57pm | #

I think one has to draw a distinction between removing Allende and installing Pinochet.

I think that Chileans had the moral right to remove Allende, and that foreigners had the right to help them do that [although it may not have been particularly wise to do so]. But that's different from saying that those who removed Allende had the right to install Pinochet, and to support him in his many crimes. They are discrete acts morally and have to be judged separately, even though they are related in time.

Kenny | November 21, 2007, 9:22pm | #

Milton Friedman, the three-foot tall Nobel Prize-winner

A little help here? Was Mr. Friedman a half of fathom in height? Are Nobel prizes one yard long when laid on the ground? (I would have thought it would be 1 meter being that Scandinavia's on the metric system and all that.)

Darn it man, there were link-thrus to a least three obvious Simpson's references this week, but nothing explaining this?

SxCx | November 21, 2007, 9:31pm | #

If the other reviews are any indication, the reason this book hasn't been seriously considered is probably because it doesn't deserve to.

"The Fatal Conceit"

SIV | November 21, 2007, 9:33pm | #

The coup against Allende was justifiable. The crimes of Pinochet came afterward.There is no moral equivalence between Castro and Pinochet.
Castro has been far worse for the people.

whit | November 21, 2007, 9:39pm | #

"Hitler=leftist
Bush= moderate center-right
Ron Paul= most right-wing candidate in GOP race"

the issue is not whether one is left or right, but whether one is statist or not.

bush is a statist right-moderate. he is clearly not very conservative, but he is clearly quite statist.

clinton as a left moderate was also statist.

ron paul is very much NOT a statist.

that's where the distinction lies. hitler was clearly a statist (to put it mildly)

i spend a lot of time at dem underground (it's funny and kind of like watching a train wrekc) and if their is one relative consistency among the lefties there, it is their statism.

personally, i prefer repubs to dems but like neither because i am more libertarian than any candidates they ever present.

SxCx | November 21, 2007, 9:51pm | #

I'm kind of surprised at how many people consider a formal refutation of Klein to be pointless and of a low priority, as if this cozy libertarian circle was just a vacuum of back-patters.

Isn't the whole point to be flagged in a Google search, or caught by a wandering eye in the bookstore?

Have some of you forgotten there are people who need convincing?

Les | November 21, 2007, 10:08pm | #

The coup against Allende was justifiable. The crimes of Pinochet came afterward. There is no moral equivalence between Castro and Pinochet.

And the Che t-shirt wearers say the overthrow of Batista (who, unlike Allende, was never elected) was justifiable. The crimes of Castro came afterward.

Castro and Pinochet arrested, tortured, and murdered dissidents. What's the fucking difference?

Guy Montag | November 21, 2007, 10:13pm | #

BTW, in line with going on the record yesterday as supporting private ownership of tanks and other direct fire weapons, I will here go on the record as saying that the Pinochet "horrors" are quite overblown. Much more overblown than that waterboarding hysteria sweeping the LeftUSA right now.

The only reason he gets the crap is because he was NOT a Leftist. The praisers of Castro and others really need to put up some real numbers on how Pinochet compares with Fidel, Che, Stalin and their abandoned hero, Hitler. Yes, to include Les as an evidence presenter.

GILMORE | November 21, 2007, 10:19pm | #

joe | November 21, 2007, 4:31pm | #
You know, he's right. Reason still hasn't mounted a serious consideration of the book


And why should he? Ive read other stuff by her, seen her do her schtick in 'the corporation'... and it's boilerplate anti-market bullshit, tossing out weak conspiracy theories and pseudoeconomic jargon.

If there's some pony in there somewhere, im not sure free market libertarians are going to find it.

GILMORE | November 21, 2007, 10:19pm | #

(when i say 'he' i meant moynihan)

Juan | November 21, 2007, 10:29pm | #

Castro and Pinochet arrested, tortured, and murdered dissidents. What's the fucking difference?

Pinochet offered a better deal for those willing to tolerate him. Granted, that only puts him in a higher circle of hell.

SxCx | November 21, 2007, 10:30pm | #

it's boilerplate anti-market bullshit, tossing out weak conspiracy theories and pseudoeconomic jargon.

All of which is very appetizing to the undecided layman.

SxCx | November 21, 2007, 10:32pm | #

If there's some pony in there somewhere, im not sure free market libertarians are going to find it.

As if free-market libertarians need the reassurance?

Seriously: what the fuck is going on here?

Asharask | November 21, 2007, 10:40pm | #

One of the folks here, that I ignore 99.999% of the time, tries that one on me on occasion. Doesn't work to well though.

You ignore me, but you can't mentioning me.

Keep right on kissing up to statist mainstream Republicans who will never accept you. The same goes for a certain Mr. Dondero.

SIV | November 21, 2007, 10:43pm | #


the issue is not whether one is left or right, but whether one is statist or not.


Other than a minority of the self professed left-anarchists, is their any kind of leftist that isn't statist?

The collectivist/individualist; left/right dichotomy is reflected in views on private property.

Juan | November 21, 2007, 10:53pm | #

Have some of you forgotten there are people who need convincing?

Well, the best I can do is stuff like my 6:36 post.

Asharak | November 21, 2007, 10:55pm | #

BTW, in line with going on the record yesterday as supporting private ownership of tanks and other direct fire weapons, I will here go on the record as saying that the Pinochet "horrors" are quite overblown. Much more overblown than that waterboarding hysteria sweeping the LeftUSA right now.

The only reason he gets the crap is because he was NOT a Leftist. The praisers of Castro and others really need to put up some real numbers on how Pinochet compares with Fidel, Che, Stalin and their abandoned hero, Hitler. Yes, to include Les as an evidence presenter.


As if there were any further proof of what a vile, crypto-fascist thug/fraud you are. It's disgusting that you even have the right to consider yourself a libertarian (or a Christian, for that matter).

And for the record, I didn't agree with what Naomi Klein said either, but scum like you give her plenty of ammunition. You are also more like Fidel, Che, Stalin, Hitler and Pinochet than anything.

Oh, and the fact that you're on Slashdot also pretty much says it all.

highnumber | November 21, 2007, 11:03pm | #

Oh, and the fact that you're on Slashdot also pretty much says it all.

Is that the internet equivalent of wearing an 8 ball jacket? Please explain.

SIV | November 21, 2007, 11:04pm | #


Oh, and the fact that you're on Slashdot also pretty much says it all.



non sequitur par excellence

prolefeed | November 21, 2007, 11:08pm | #

No good will come out of political ideologies that divide humanity into Productive and Parasite classes, and fantase about the former's revenge on the latter.

"Revenge", joe? Care to point out a single passage in any of Rand's novels where she depicts the productive classes getting revenge on the parasites? As I recall, the closest she got to revenge was the productive folks withdrawing their goods and labor from society, and letting the parasites suffer the consequences of having no one left to loot -- or fighting back when the parasites initiated a conflict. In fact, the productive people tended to be insanely long-suffering of the abuses heaped upon them by the parasites in Rand's novels.

And as a good union supporter, surely you can't argue against a group of people banding together to withhold their labor from others who they feel are treating them unfairly, no?

thoreau | November 21, 2007, 11:12pm | #

Pinochet offered a better deal for those willing to tolerate him. Granted, that only puts him in a higher circle of hell.

Exactly. It's like debating whether a shit sandwich is better for you if there are no transfats in it. Who the fuck cares?

P Brooks | November 21, 2007, 11:14pm | #

...her misanthropic approach to politics in general.

Does this by any chance mean she thinks professional career politicians are a bunch of soulless, duplicitous crooks, whose every utterence has been carefully calculated to elicit a specific response on the part of the boobousie?

prolefeed | November 21, 2007, 11:22pm | #

Oh, and joe, do you think it is wrong to divide humanity into people who are objectively and completely parasitic, in the sense of taking by force and giving back nothing of value -- certain politicians spring to mind -- and everyone else? Is this part of the PC mindset, where we're not supposed to openly state unpleasant truths because someone who is behaving badly might be offended?

SIV | November 21, 2007, 11:25pm | #

Pinochet offered a better deal for those willing to tolerate him. Granted, that only puts him in a higher circle of hell.

Exactly. It's like debating whether a shit sandwich is better for you if there are no transfats in it. Who the fuck cares?


Castro controls a lot more aspects of the Cubans' lives than Pinochet did the Chileans.
There is a world of difference. Which society would you rather live in?

Kinda like the difference between Chi-coms now and how they were back in the Mao days. Only China is more oppressive now than Pinochet's Chile ever was.

Urkobold&trade: | November 21, 2007, 11:32pm | #

SERIOUSLY?

SERIOUSLY?!

[once more for emphasis]
SERIOUSLY?!!

thoreau | November 21, 2007, 11:35pm | #

Which society would you rather live in?

I have a little bracelet on my wrist that says "WWKD?" I take my spiritual and ethical guidance from Captain James Tiberius Kirk, who when faced with 2 shitty options reprogrammed the simulator.

Me, if I had to choose between those two dictators I'd look at them and say "You suck, and you suck even more. I'm getting the fuck out and immigrating to America." I wouldn't spend any time patting one of them on the back for sucking less.

FWIW, the kids in Che t-shirts pull the same shit, pointing to their favorite dictator and explain why he sucks less than Pinochet. Whether they're right or wrong on that question is irrelevant to the bigger issue: They can't see the forest because the trees are decorated with hanging corpses.

I'm prepared to stipulate that Pinochet was not the worst dictator of his era. Who the fuck cares?

Urkobold&trade: | November 21, 2007, 11:41pm | #

OK, THEM FIZIKS SORTS AIN'T JUST EVIL. THEM'S DORKY, TOO. WWKD? HE'D GO F*CK A NATIVE. THAT'S WHAT HE'D DO, YA GEEK!

thoreau | November 21, 2007, 11:42pm | #

I believe that fucking a native was not on the original list of options. He had to show some ingenuity and reprogram the simulation before he could get that sweet alien ass.

Les | November 21, 2007, 11:45pm | #

Asharak,

It's strange about Mr. Guy Montag. Sometimes, when the subject has nothing to do with politics, he might say something actually funny and even clever. But his mind completely closes down whenever anything comes up that might remotely have anything to do with ideology.

He'll call you a terrorist lover if you disagree with him about waterboarding and here he is saying Hitler is my hero because I pointed out that Pinochet treated his dissidents like Castro did/does. Then he whines like a little girl if anyone suggests he's said something he didn't, happy to dish it out, but not enough of a man to take it, like most bullies (and especially the weakest kind, the internet-bully).

I've actually tried to reason with him, asking clarifying questions in a most diplomatic manner, but he's such a sad, quivering little pussy of a man, he never follows up on his attacks other than to cover his ears and hum to himself.

I think I'm done trying to reason with him as it's perfectly clear why everyone here (even those who might agree with him) hold him in such low regard. It's sad really and I can't help but feeling sorry for him.

SIV | November 21, 2007, 11:50pm | #

Perhaps I'm wrong but you could probably talk all day in Pinochet's Chile about how bad things sucked and that the Junta were a bunch of dickheads. Otherwise you were generally free to live as you saw fit.Politically organizing was what could get you imprisoned or killed.

Communist "societies" brook no criticism of the system, even absent political organization.

Did pinochet require everyone listen to his speeches and memorize his books?

Did Chile pick your occupation?
Forcefully discourage your practice of religon?
Censor the not-overtly political literature you could read?
The nature and degree of State control is of a profound difference.

Urkobold™ | November 21, 2007, 11:56pm | #

IT'S NOT LIKE WE'RE CUTTING OFF YOUR PENIS. WE'RE JUST CUTTING OFF YOUR TESTICLES.

Mamluk | November 22, 2007, 12:02am | #

Eunuchs in the harem of the Caliphate got the most pussy.

thoreau | November 22, 2007, 1:07am | #

SIV-

I'm quite willing to believe that Pinochet sucked to a lesser degree than other dictators.

Big fucking deal.

Go ahead, and give me more reasons to agree that Pinochet sucked to a lesser degree than other dictators. I'll continue to say you're right. But what the fuck does it matter?

Les | November 22, 2007, 2:08am | #

And you know, if you weren't Jewish, Nazi Germany was a much better place than Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge!

Urkobold™ | November 22, 2007, 2:17am | #

thoreau,

THIS DAMNATION BY FAINT PRAISE ISN'T GETTING US VERY FAR.
HOW ABOUT SOME TAINT PRAISE?
PINOCHET'S TAINT WAS HUGE...

noot | November 22, 2007, 3:30am | #

joe wrote: "Nice double standards, "freedom-lovers."

I think I'm getting a whiff of the gas chambers as I read that quote.

noot | November 22, 2007, 3:32am | #

P.S. That quote from Chambers about the gas chambers is no more honest today than when it was written deceitfully back in the 50s. If you read the book, you would see that she didn't advocate anything more than civil disobedience - a strike. She was strident about it. So what? Gandhi also advised passive disobedience and was strident about it. He just had nicer things to say about his opponents.

lemur | November 22, 2007, 4:03am | #

"Julian Sanchez would have been all over this, and would have had the stones to acknowledge when Klein had a point."

So, you'd prefer a "one the one-hand..... but on the other, third-webbed hand...." type of review?

Waiting for your even-handed review of Pinochet's memoirs, mr. allegedly fair-minded.

(by the way, saying something is a better choice than other possible choices does not equate to "the better choice among all choices - especially all bad choices - is a good choice." But nice rhetorical sleight of hand, asshole).

Guy Montag | November 22, 2007, 5:58am | #

Nobody who thinks "bullying" is possible on the internet, especially in a forum like this, needs to be calling anybody a "pussy" unless there is a handy mirror over their monitor in their mother's basement.

Some actual worthwile comments on Pinochet can be found here. This one is especially good:

Ion Mihai Pacepa
In my other life, as a Communist general, I lived under two tyrants who killed and jailed over one million people. Pinnochet saved Chile from becoming another Communist hell. God bless him for that, and may he be forgiven for his later aberrations. Not only in Chile does power corrupt.
— Lt. General Ion Mihai Pacepa is the highest-ranking intelligence officer ever to have defected from the former Soviet bloc. His book Red Horizons has been republished in 27 countries.

linna | November 22, 2007, 8:20am | #

> The very term Right and Left wing come from where factions sat in the legislature following the French Revolution. They were differentiated not by the amount of relative collectivism, but by their deference to change and on the other hand tradition.

Correct. And in those days what were the right wingers (conservatives) trying to conserve? The status quo, ie. mercantilistic policies, monarchy etc. The left wingers were for free markets and individual freedom. What are the conservatives in US trying to conserve now? The status quo, again. It's simply a case of those in power wanting to hold on to it, just like the politbyro in USSR did, just like almost anybody with power tends to do. Ideology doesn't have much to do with it, but it's always quite easy to be dishonest with oneself.

But here's one thing I don't understand:
How will studying economics ever change an opinion that is build on an ethical basis? Let's compare two systems, for example: US & Finland, the latter being a good deal more collectivist country.

Ethically, what's wrong with the Finnish system:

1) That those who make a lot of money (either through good luck or their hard work and talent or all combined) have to pay a lot of taxes.

2) Some individuals missuse the welfare system.

Ethically, what's wrong with the system in US, which though far from the libertarian ideal is a good deal closer:

1) Corruption. In the right it's often claimed that corruption and socialism go hand in hand. Check the statistics, Finland is on the very top of non-corrupted countries. The situation in the US well known to all.

But much more importantly:

2) Poor people are ---cked. Is that because the markets aren't free enough? Were the poor less ---cked before New Deal?
I'm not raising these questions to provoke, I honestly want to understand. Especially I'd like to know is this even a relevant consern from the libertarian stand point?

Mr. Nice Guy | November 22, 2007, 9:50am | #

"Other than a minority of the self professed left-anarchists, is their any kind of leftist that isn't statist?"
Other than a minority of self professed right-libertarians, is their any kind of rightist that isn't either a statist (militaristic) or a theocrat?

SIV makes a neat move, anyone for the state is therefore left wing (a collectivist) allowing him of course, by definition, to define any totalitarian government as "left wing" and making it impossible to have a "right wing" one.

SIV also brings up the canard of defense of private property being the thing that unifies the right and libertarianism. The right wing in the US has a professed love of private property only in so much as capitalism has been a tradition here and the vested interests that bring the "order" and "authority" they love so much has to be based on wealth rather than a system of monarchy, established church and aristocracy (which is how the right expresses itself in Europe historically). Of course the right in the US was usually quick to use government ("statism") to protect its "artistocracy of wealth" and promote "order" and "authority" (note the Federalists policy of the National Bank, granting rent-seeking charters to wealthy interests to build railroads, canals, bridges etc., the protectionism trumpeted by the