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Man-Made Global Warming "Unequivocal"--What Next?

Over the weekend, the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) released the Synthesis Report of its Fourth Assessment Report (4AR). The report is being published in advance of the upcoming 13th Conference of the Parties (COP-13) to the U.N Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) in Bali. At the COP-13, negotiators will try to hammer out a new international treaty to deal with the man-made emissions of greenhouse gases (GHG) that are contributing to global warming. Any new treaty would replace the Kyoto Protocol which terminates in 2012. The Kyoto Protocol set a goal of reducing GHG emissions by an average of 5 percent below the level that signatory countries emitted in 1990. In October, the scientific journal Nature published a commentary that declared,

"...as an instrument for achieving emissions reductions, [the Kyoto Protocol] has failed. It has produced no demonstrable reductions in emissions or even in anticipated emissions growth."

Among other things, the Synthesis Report concludes:

Warming of the climate system is unequivocal, as is now evident from observations of increases in global average air and ocean temperatures, widespread melting of snow and ice, and rising global average sea level...

Most of the observed increase in globally-averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic GHG concentrations.7 It is likely there has been significant anthropogenic warming over the past 50 years averaged over each continent (except Antarctica)...

The Synthesis Report further notes:

Determining what constitutes “dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system” in relation to Article 2 of the UNFCCC involves value judgements. Science can support informed decisions on this issue,...

The negotiations in Bali will be over these value judgements and how to balance higher energy costs with the benefits of a cooler climate.

Impacts of climate change are very likely to impose net annual costs which will increase over time as global temperatures increase. Peer-reviewed estimates of the social cost of carbon23 in 2005 average US$12 per tonne of CO2, but the range from 100 estimates is large (-$3 to $95/tCO2). This is due in large part to differences in assumptions regarding climate sensitivity, response lags, the treatment of risk and equity, economic and noneconomic impacts, the inclusion of potentially catastrophic losses, and discount rates. Aggregate estimates of costs mask significant differences in impacts across sectors, regions and populations and very likely underestimate damage costs because they cannot include many non-quantifiable impacts.

Limited and early analytical results from integrated analyses of the costs and benefits of mitigation indicate that they are broadly comparable in magnitude, but do not as yet permit an unambiguous determination of an emissions pathway or stabilisation level where benefits exceed costs.

Climate sensitivity is a key uncertainty for mitigation scenarios for specific temperature levels.

Choices about the scale and timing of GHG mitigation involve balancing the economic costs of more rapid emission reductions now against the corresponding medium-term and long-term climate risks of delay.

Summary of Synthesis Report here.

Heads up: I will be posting daily dispatches from Bali covering the final week of the COP-13 climate change negotiations (Dec. 10-14).

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Comments to "Man-Made Global Warming "Unequivocal"--What Next?":

james | November 19, 2007, 2:08pm | #

Man made global warming is bullshit. The earth has warmed and cooled throughout the ages. Some assholes are now trying to figure out a way to get rich off of this by fooling the ignorati. See here http://www.abd.org.uk/green_myths.htm and here
http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/index.html

Miggs | November 19, 2007, 2:10pm | #

In before joe.

Umbriel | November 19, 2007, 2:16pm | #

Those quotes only state that the warming is "unequivocal", they still use "likely" when referring to human impact. Do they connect the dots more definitively elsewhere, or are they still playing semantic games?

carrick | November 19, 2007, 2:21pm | #

We just need more pirates. That should be easy enough.

Russell Seitz | November 19, 2007, 2:22pm | #

Sorry to roil Junk Science Lunk, but the Nature editorial marks a milestone in the evolution of the debate- the Kyoto EcoEconomists, A. Gore , Ex-Spokesman General, have been given the bum's rush by the science establishment.

This opens the door to a whole new policy debate, but those still preoccupied with denying the 19th century literature on radiative forcing are unlikely to have much say in managing the consequences of technical civilization in the 21st.

Reinmoose | November 19, 2007, 2:22pm | #

"...as an instrument for achieving emissions reductions, [the Kyoto Protocol] has failed. It has produced no demonstrable reductions in emissions or even in anticipated emissions growth."

!NO!
But I thought the United States hated the environment and was evil for not going along with the Kyoto Protocol! It did so much good for the environment and the United States is the only world superpower that still pollutes a lot!

some fed | November 19, 2007, 2:23pm | #

COP-13: Generating unreadably long tree-killing reports at distant tropical resorts...

so in the future you can be coerced into staying home to avoid paying carbon taxes imposed on airline tickets...

while you buy emissions offsets (to plant trees, no doubt) against heating your home!

Peter | November 19, 2007, 2:23pm | #

"Man-made Global Warming 'Unequivocal': What Next?"

I'll tell you. Science becomes a matter of consensus rather than proof for the benefit of public welfare, and the official body of scholarly discourse effectively becomes a government bureaucracy. Now that science has become the sovereign of the State, reason and liberty begin to slip away as the laws of nature and physics become means to ends of ruling intellectuals and politicians to twist and bend to their interest.

Paul | November 19, 2007, 2:32pm | #

to hammer out a new international treaty to deal with the man-made emissions of greenhouse gases (GHG) that are contributing to global warming. Any new treaty would replace the Kyoto Protocol which terminates in 2012.

Why, according to the articles I'm reading, the effects of Global Warming are now irreversible. So we're done, right?

"...as an instrument for achieving emissions reductions, [the Kyoto Protocol] has failed. It has produced no demonstrable reductions in emissions or even in anticipated emissions growth."

Yeah, no duh. Oh, wait, I know the argument that's coming "It would have worked if it hadn't been for those meddling skeptics".

Mary | November 19, 2007, 2:33pm | #

Oh, I don't have anything to say--I just didn't want to be left out.

Urkobold™ | November 19, 2007, 2:35pm | #

FUCK IT--LET'S MOVE UNDERGROUND AND RELY ON GLOBAL AIR CONDITIONING.

MikeP | November 19, 2007, 2:35pm | #

Peer-reviewed estimates of the social cost of carbon23 in 2005 average US$12 per tonne of CO2, but the range from 100 estimates is large (-$3 to $95/tCO2).
Just to make clear exactly how much social cost they are talking about, $12 per tonne of CO2 amounts to 10.5 cents per gallon of gasoline.

The present tax on gasoline in the several United States is more than three times that: Simply put the word "Pigouvian" in front of the present transportation tax, and users of automobiles are already paying their share of the social cost of global warming.

Furthermore, since even the highest estimate of social cost is well below the multi-dollar per gallon carbon tax many global warming activists want to see, I trust the Synthesis Report will put calls for expensive new carbon taxes to rest.

Ken Shultz | November 19, 2007, 2:37pm | #

Yeah, um, the argument about whether or not global warming is bullshit, that's a real interesting one, uh, really, I'm sure. Somebody wake me up when it's over, mkay?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

"Determining what constitutes “dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system” in relation to Article 2 of the UNFCCC involves value judgements. Science can support informed decisions on this issue,..."

Meanwhile, assuming that we're going to deal with this via public policy and that I'm reading the above properly, they're saying that what it's going to take to have a significant impact on emissions is also going to be devastating to our economy. ...that's our jobs, standard of living, poverty rate, level of violent crime, etc., etc.

So, I'm going to insist that whatever public policy prescriptions we adopt to deal with greenhouse gas emissions absolutely must, must, must include a gigantic stimulus package, or at the very least, we'll need a stimu one as powerful as the "mitigation" is costly.

Indeed, if the mitigation is so god awful costly, then we need to start doing some really big things now, like eliminating the capital gains tax and slashing corporate taxes and eliminating the income tax entirely, and, of course, we need to cut our spending as well, both foreign and domestic--especially in the area of defense. Sorry, but if what they're saying is true, there's just no way we're going to be able to afford an empire anymore.

P Brooks | November 19, 2007, 2:40pm | #

What next?

Wholesale slaughter of humans in industrialized nations, and a return to an agrarian matriarchal tribalist society, as intended by GAIA of course.

I advise the use of nuclear weapons for the "wholesale slaughter" part of the plan; the resultant nuclear winter will provide a much needed acceleration of the return to "natural" temp levels, and remove pesky reminders of the depths to which the human mind can sink.

joe | November 19, 2007, 2:41pm | #

Deluded tools.

Paul | November 19, 2007, 2:46pm | #

Sorry, but if what they're saying is true, there's just no way we're going to be able to afford an empire anymore.

How much CO2 mitigation could we claim if we eliminate government?

Matt J | November 19, 2007, 2:54pm | #

Ever wonder how a place covered with ice got the name Greenland? Maybe it's because it wasn't always covered with ice. Maybe since it was named the climate, what's the word I'm looking for, oh yeah - changed. Must of been all those Vikings burning fossil fuels.

Reinmoose | November 19, 2007, 2:57pm | #

Ever wonder how a place covered with ice got the name Greenland? Maybe it's because it wasn't always covered with ice. Maybe since it was named the climate, what's the word I'm looking for, oh yeah - changed. Must of been all those Vikings burning fossil fuels.

wha?

MikeP | November 19, 2007, 2:57pm | #

Maybe it's because it wasn't always covered with ice.

Maybe it's because Iceland was already taken.

Guy Montag | November 19, 2007, 3:00pm | #

Unequivocal"--What Next?"

Everybody should now voluntarily switch to alternative fueled hybrids, just like me, of course!

You know, if you were really serious about this issue and all.

Paul | November 19, 2007, 3:01pm | #

The United Nations' Nobel Prize-winning panel on climate change approved the final installment of its landmark report on global warming Friday, concluding that even the best efforts at reducing carbon-dioxide levels will not be enough.
First off, is anyone else getting tired of prefacing Al Gore or the IPCC as "Nobel Prize-winning"?

It's like 'Oh, they won a nobel prize, I guess it's true and good, now'.

Second, "even the best efforts won't be enough."

I mean, come on, this logically has two ways it can go.

1. It's true, then we can't stop it. I have to assume that if we really did our "best effort", then there is no possible "better effort". I further conclude that if we reduced our CO2 output to pre 1900 levels, that that still wouldn't be good enough?

2. It's not true, which calls into question these summary reports this organization puts out. They're simply making the dire predictions that some policy makers want to see so as to wrest more control over the populace.

Third, we keep getting told with every report "it's worse than we thought". Wow, ten years ago, it was already supposed to be much worse than it is now. When do their 'worse than we thought' predictions eventually circle around on themselves?

concluded the delegates, who have been meeting in Valencia, Spain.

Fourth, I wanna go to Valencia, Spain, too. It must be nice to fly all over the world to exotic locales, and talk about how much CO2 we're putting into the air.

It would be like me getting out on my kayak every day to count the number of kayakers, and writing a report of how too many people are out on the water kayaking.

"The importance of adaptation has been growing in the IPCC reports."

Advocating for adaptation once was viewed as defeatism, especially among environmentalists.


So, are we defeated? Help me out, here.

de stijl | November 19, 2007, 3:02pm | #

AGW is the new abortion.

Sam Grove | November 19, 2007, 3:02pm | #

"very likely due" is not unequivocal.

It said "warming" is unequivocal. And just about everyone accepts that the climate is warming and has been warming for a very long time.

The question remains: Has warming led or followed the CO2 increase? What does the data show?

Anonymous Bastert | November 19, 2007, 3:04pm | #

I always thought they named it Greenland to trick people into colonizing it.

greenish | November 19, 2007, 3:05pm | #

Being a libertarian doesn't mean you have to be a dick.

Matt J | November 19, 2007, 3:09pm | #

Via Wikipedia - So take with a grain of salted herring.

Data obtained from ice cores indicate that between AD 800 and 1300 the regions around the fjords of the southern part of the island experienced a relatively mild climate similar to today. Trees and herbaceous plants grew in the south of the island and the prevailing climate initially permitted farming of domestic livestock species as farmed in Norway.

joe | November 19, 2007, 3:13pm | #

The warming must be natural, because natural warming occured in the past.

Similarly, the people who died of anthrax exposure in late 2001 must have caught it from sheep, because people died of sheep-borne anthrax in the past.

When will the pinko-veterinarian conspiracy be exposed?

Paul | November 19, 2007, 3:15pm | #

Has warming led or followed the CO2 increase? What does the data show?

In my opinion, that's part of the problem. We keep looking at warming without context to other environmental factors. It's all warming/co2 all the time.

According to scientists, Mars is experiencing a notable global warming. Is it possible... just possible that there could be a solar system-wide phenomenon occurring due to the solar activity cycle? I fear that the co2 theory alone has gained so much steam (!) that any good evidence of even a modest merging of both natural and human factors can't be discussed without being labeled a 'low-down dirty denier'.

Sam Grove | November 19, 2007, 3:18pm | #

A follow up question:

If warming causes the oceans to outgas CO2, would that not account for anthropogenic CO2 'backing up' in the atmosphere?

Lost_In_Translation | November 19, 2007, 3:18pm | #

After all the handwaving and dire warnings are exhuasted, we will be living in a much warmer world and I think the scientists need to accept that. No amount of concern about the environment and government action will stop it. If we regulate the CO2 emissions to the point of choking industry, we'll simply shift the problem to other countrys that don't regulate so much. If you impose an artificial cost on the population, you will increase the amount of inefficiency and lead to even more warming. You can't stop global trends. The best you can do is come up with ways to mitigate the effects through use of the market.

Stop worrying about global warming and decide what you want to do to make it more livable. :)

Lost_In_Translation | November 19, 2007, 3:19pm | #

Paul,

Genius!!!!

Move all the CO2 to Mars and kill two birds with one stone.

Guy Montag | November 19, 2007, 3:20pm | #

Paul,

That just means that we need to send hybrid space probes to Mars, instead of the fossile-fueled ones we have been sending. It is always our fault, you see.

Also, for those Mars probes that were shot down crashed, we can not blame Martian life, as it is innocent and merely reacting to USian aggression.

Must we send you to room 101 so that you can be educated like Winston Smith?

joe | November 19, 2007, 3:20pm | #

We keep looking at warming without context to other environmental factors. It's all warming/co2 all the time.

Maybe you do, Paul.

The IPCC looked at the question of solar forcing and found that it cannot explain the warming trend over the past several decades.

joe | November 19, 2007, 3:22pm | #

After all the handwaving and dire warnings are exhuasted, we will be living in a much warmer world and I think the scientists need to accept that.

They do. That's why the IPCC reports that irreversable warming has already occured.

Don't worry, prophets of adaptation, even if we discovered the technology that eliminated GHG emissions tomorrow, we have already done damage that will require us to adapt.

VM | November 19, 2007, 3:23pm | #

"Science becomes a matter of consensus rather than proof for the benefit of public welfare, and the official body of scholarly discourse effectively becomes a government bureaucracy. Now that science has become the sovereign of the State, reason and liberty begin to slip away as the laws of nature and physics become means to ends of ruling intellectuals and politicians to twist and bend to their interest."

um.

Ken Shultz | November 19, 2007, 3:39pm | #

joe,

Would you support deep cuts in federal spending and taxes, if you had to, in order to get something that significantly reduced greenhouse gas emissions?

R C Dean | November 19, 2007, 3:50pm | #

I'm still waiting for someone to explain the naturally occurring climactic cycles.

Until they can explain baseline variations, I don't see how they can possibly identify, much less explain, off-baseline variations.

Paul | November 19, 2007, 3:51pm | #

Maybe you do, Paul.

Actually joe, I was making a criticism of skeptics who continue to look at one-dimensional issues such as warming following or preceding a co2 concentration. I think it's myopic.

FWIW, I think much new information about solar forcing will come to the fore.

Don't worry, prophets of adaptation, even if we discovered the technology that eliminated GHG emissions tomorrow, we have already done damage that will require us to adapt.

Hmm, I disagree. If humans can warm the planet, could we not also cool it? If "above normal" levels of CO2 cause a warming, what about below normal levels?

Peter | November 19, 2007, 3:52pm | #

When the State controls the discourse of scientific inquiry, i.e. what is and isn't scientific fact, the most unimaginable atrocities can be implemented by mode of public policy. Well ... maybe not completely unimaginable (See Germany, 1938).

Oh and Guy,

"Everybody should now voluntarily switch to alternative fueled hybrids, just like me, of course!"

Not everybody will VOLUNTARILY do this. So any government action to force us to take these measures is the kind of coercion I'd think is against libertarian principles. Now, I've stated before, the only government body with sovereign rights to the air itself is the FAA, which has yet to express any position either way regarding climate change. They are the only one I would accept regulations from in terms of this issue since it is technically their property allegedly being violated.

Paul | November 19, 2007, 3:52pm | #

RC:

They can't and most likely, they won't.

Guy Montag | November 19, 2007, 3:57pm | #

Oh and Peter,

"Everybody should now voluntarily switch to alternative fueled hybrids, just like me, of course!"

Not everybody will VOLUNTARILY do this. So any government action to force us to take these measures is the kind of coercion I'd think is against libertarian principles. Now, I've stated before, the only government body with sovereign rights to the air itself is the FAA, which has yet to express any position either way regarding climate change. They are the only one I would accept regulations from in terms of this issue since it is technically their property allegedly being violated.


If they don't it just means that they don't love the earth as much as me. Perhaps they deserve to be run over by one of my most exquisite hybrids, but that is a different debate.

Not sure why you come across as such a hater. It feels so much nicer to love.

Matt J | November 19, 2007, 3:59pm | #

joe,

How is the fact it's getting hotter now is any different from the times it's gotten hotter (or cooler) in the past? It took a heck of a lot of global warming to melt the ice sheets that covered most of North America. What caused that? When exactly was the Earth the perfect temperature?

Based on our geologic history, it seems to me you'd have about as good of a chance of controlling the tides as you do controlling the Earth's climate cycle.

Guy Montag | November 19, 2007, 3:59pm | #

Oh Peter,

The FAA has domain over airspace, not over what is put into the air. That would be EPA and some others, perhaps OSHA can be dreamed into that one? But not the FAA, not even the NTSB.

AuH20 | November 19, 2007, 4:00pm | #

Maybe. Maybe not.

Any issue the left gets this excited over is automatically suspect in my book.

joe | November 19, 2007, 4:02pm | #

Ken Shultz,

Would you support deep cuts in federal spending and taxes, if you had to, in order to get something that significantly reduced greenhouse gas emissions?

Absolutely. We've gotta do what we've gotta do.

Vastly reducing the travel budgets of government offices so they use teleconferenceing, for example. The problem is, there haven't been very many plausible proposals for reducing carbon emissions through lower federal spending. Perhaps this is because the low-tax people have spent so much time in denial of the problem that they haven't put much thought into solutions, but it's probably a result of the problem not being one that can solved through tax and spending cuts.

joe | November 19, 2007, 4:05pm | #

Matt J,

How is the fact it's getting hotter now is any different from the times it's gotten hotter (or cooler) in the past? "The fact that it's getting hotter now" is not different from other periods of warming. It got hotter then, and it's getting hotter now. Changes beyond a certain point caused massive environmental disruption and extinctions then, and it's causing them now. The consequences of climate change aren't any different.

It took a heck of a lot of global warming to melt the ice sheets that covered most of North America. What caused that? Natural processes, still being researched.

When exactly was the Earth the perfect temperature? There is no perfect temperature. It's not about the absolute temperature, it's the change that's the bitch.

joe | November 19, 2007, 4:05pm | #

Any issue the left gets this excited over is automatically suspect in my book.

Few state it so honestly.

ed | November 19, 2007, 4:06pm | #

Are we not men? I know I am; as such I have confidence that my large-brained brethren will face whatever comes our way with grace, courage, and the odd witch hunt.

Paul | November 19, 2007, 4:07pm | #

The problem is, there haven't been very many plausible proposals for reducing carbon emissions through lower federal spending. Perhaps this is because the low-tax people have spent so much time in denial of the problem that they haven't put much thought into solutions,

Forgive me for sounding flip, here, but high tax people have repeatedly told us that massive...nay any noticable cuts in federal spending will cause the economy to fail, and eventually collapse. A shrinking economy will result in lower carbon emissions, due to the decrease of economic activity, since pretty much everyone agrees that with our current practices, increased economic activity leads to higher carbon emissions.

MikeP | November 19, 2007, 4:08pm | #

Would you support deep cuts in federal spending and taxes, if you had to, in order to get something that significantly reduced greenhouse gas emissions?

The main problem with this is that the productivity improvements due to reducing the burden of government would raise the carbon consumption in the economy as a whole.

Lost_In_Translation | November 19, 2007, 4:18pm | #

MikeP,

Would that be canceled out by the efficiency improvements of not having to fill out 200 forms to 5 levels of government to obtain the correct permits for sewage disposal?

I think emissions are a wash in reduction of government, but our ability to get more done for the same cost improves dramatically.

MikeP | November 19, 2007, 4:32pm | #

Lost_In_Translation,

It is exactly those efficiency improvements that will cause more energy to be consumed by the economy and more CO2 to be generated. If you spend less time filling out paperwork, you spend more time being productive. As Paul notes above, productivity in today's world implies higher carbon emissions.

Ken Shultz | November 19, 2007, 4:36pm | #

"The problem is, there haven't been very many plausible proposals for reducing carbon emissions through lower federal spending."

It isn't the lower spending that's going to cut carbon emissions. It's the lower emissions we're going to have because we start taxing emissions rather than revenue and income.

Seeing people and businesses avoid emitting greenhouse gases the way they avoid paying taxes now--that's what the greens out there want, right? I would be willing to support a huge tax on greenhouse emissions--the ONLY thing short of technological breakthroughs that's going to have an impact on the problem... IF I don't think it's going to totally devastate our economy. ...and the only way I can think of that our economy will be absorb to absorb the shock of a real solution would be to eliminate federal taxes on just about everything else except pollution.

As a libertarian, I'd rather tax pollution than effort and efficiency and profit and ingenuity anyway. ...and I'm willing to make a trade.

When people hear about taxing pollution, all they think about is a huge tax on top of all the other taxes they pay. They just aren't willing to sacrifice their standard of living for posterity. They just aren't. ...and it's a good thing we don't have to.

"Perhaps this is because the low-tax people have spent so much time in denial of the problem that they haven't put much thought into solutions, but it's probably a result of the problem not being one that can solved through tax and spending cuts."

I'm a low-tax guy, obviously, and I think you're absolutely right about this. ...and if you'll work on getting greens to think about how they're going to mitigate for all the economic damage the solution is going to cause, I'll work on getting low tax people to think about how much better off they'd be if they only paid federal taxes on how much pollution they created.

joe | November 19, 2007, 4:36pm | #

The issue of the imprecision in the estimates of GHG costs/ton is one that will resolve itself, because any solution is going to take a generation or two to implement anyway.

We start with the low-hanging fruit (we start walking to the farmers market to buy it - heh) and work our way up from there over the next few years and decades, taking progressively more costly steps along the way. Over this timefram, we will then see the consequences of global warming as well as develop better technologies and practices for understanding it.

This will mean that, before we go from the $5/ton solutions to the $10/ton solutions, we will at least be able to limit the range of estimates from $-3 to $95 to, say, between $15 and $60.

Lost_In_Translation | November 19, 2007, 4:36pm | #

MikeP,

It depends on the energy cost of filling out paperwork vs. producing an additional X amount of widgets/improving on widget design/ shatting on the internet about the next best widget.

I still think that government soaks up alot more energy (at poor efficiency) than it needs to function and therefore elimination of it, even with associated productivity increase, would decrease emissions.

Of course then joe would be out of a job, and therefore spend more time posting here and using up more of our time arguing with him...hmmm, I think this requires alot more study.

joe | November 19, 2007, 4:40pm | #

Ken,

Ah, I see. Yes, I am very much supportive of the idea of using carbon taxes to replace payroll taxes. But you wrote before about cutting taxes and spending.

Also, don't take a static-technology view of things. Such taxes would not only cause people to reduce their emissions using existing technologies and practices, but provide a powerful incentive for further development.

As for convincing greens about the cost, the smart ones are already on board. It's called "Sustainable Development" - the idea that environmental progress simply will not happen in the real world without economic progress.

Canada | November 19, 2007, 4:47pm | #

What we NEED is the outlaw incandescent light bulbs. That will fix it.

Paul | November 19, 2007, 4:54pm | #

My only issue with taxing carbon emissions is that in my opinion, our current calculations for carbon emissions are way off. At minimum, they're extremely rough and based mostly on statistical averages and guesswork. Basically, we're just playing with numbers. Sure, we can see what the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is, but we can't say exactly where it's coming from? Some of it is coming from natural sources, some of it (obviously) comes from automobiles, fuel-oil fires and consumption etc, some from coal-fired power plants. The problem is, two people consume (burning) the same amount of energy may be putting out two considerably different carbon footprints.

For instance, I went to that new-fangled site that all the young people visit to calculate your carbon footprint (zerofootprint.net or some such thing). Anyway, I plugged in all of my data, I put in my gas guzzling SUV, all the meat and potatoes I eat. I calculated I ate very little local or "organic" produce. I was brutally honest as to how much I drove, how much electricity and how I never biked to work. My carbon footprint was way below the average emission profile.

Another example is that I live in an area which generates a lot of electricity on hydro power. Yes, there's definitely an environmental footprint (that big concretey thing in the middle of the river) but compared to fuel or coal-fired plants, it's got to be miniscule.

Regardless, if they start taxing carbon emissions, I'm going to want to know exactly what and how they're taxing me. I don't want to be factored in by statistical sampling and averaging averages.

MikeP | November 19, 2007, 5:05pm | #

Paul,

The calculation of carbon tax on energy production is trivial. You simply tax all fossil fuels somewhere between the ground and where they are burned based on the amount of carbon in them. All the carbon you burn and all the carbon burned to provide you everything you buy in the store would have the carbon energy taxes already built in. There's no guesswork here.

The issue with taxing carbon gets complicated only when assessing carbon emissions outside the carbon-fuel energy realm. What do you charge for petroleum going into plastics, some of which will get burned and some of which won't? What do you charge for hydropower that has significant outgassing of CH4 and CO2 from detritus at the bottom of the reservoir? What do you charge for deforestation?

prolefeed | November 19, 2007, 5:13pm | #

And just about everyone accepts that the climate is warming and has been warming for a very long time.

If by a "very long time" you mean "since the 70s". Less than an eyeblink by geological standards. The Earth was getting COLDER from the 30s to the 70s, despite increasing CO2 levels. With the warming, we're about back to the local peak reached in the 30s.

The average temperature of the Earth is about 57.5 degrees F right now. During the Medieval Warm Period, which, climatewise, was considered a good time for agriculture and humanity in general, average temps were about 60 degrees F. During the following Little Ice Age, which was a really sucky era climatewise, the average temps plunged to 55 degrees F.

So, currently we're halfway between a better, warmer time and a worse, colder time, and ostensibly rational people are concluding we need to make the Earth cooler? Talk about a lack of perspective.

james | November 19, 2007, 5:18pm | #

The problem is Al Gore is smart enough to want to get rich using bad science and the ignorati will believe anything that's on the "news" and I want even get into how bad science reporting is in the MSM. Global warming is a natural phenomenon. The earth has heated and cooled throughout it's existence. Remember the ice age. I cannot believe that people believe this shit. Learn something about science before you drink the government Kool-Aide.

So, greenhouse is all about carbon dioxide, right?
Wrong. The most important players on the greenhouse stage are water vapor and clouds. Carbon dioxide has been increased to about 0.038% of the atmosphere (possibly from about 0.028% pre-Industrial Revolution) while water in its various forms ranges from 0% to 4% of the atmosphere and its properties vary by what form it is in and even at what altitude it is found in the atmosphere.

In simple terms the bulk of Earth's greenhouse effect is due to water vapor by virtue of its abundance. Water accounts for about 90% of the Earth's greenhouse effect -- perhaps 70% is due to water vapor and about 20% due to clouds (mostly water droplets), some estimates put water as high as 95% of Earth's total tropospheric greenhouse effect (e.g., Freidenreich and Ramaswamy, “Solar Radiation Absorption by Carbon Dioxide, Overlap with Water, and a Parameterization for General Circulation Models,” Journal of Geophysical Research 98 (1993):7255-7264).

The remaining portion comes from carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, methane, ozone and miscellaneous other "minor greenhouse gases." As an example of the relative importance of water it should be noted that changes in the relative humidity on the order of 1.3-4% are equivalent to the effect of doubling CO2.

james | November 19, 2007, 5:20pm | #

The second paragraph on down is from the JunkScience article The Real Inconvenient Truth.

Warty | November 19, 2007, 5:25pm | #

The problem is, there haven't been very many plausible proposals for reducing carbon emissions through lower federal spending.

DoD.

Paul | November 19, 2007, 5:30pm | #

All the carbon you burn and all the carbon burned to provide you everything you buy in the store would have the carbon energy taxes already built in.

If it actually worked that way, that would be great. Somehow, given the history of taxation in this country, I don't see it working that way. Especially when taxation is more often thatn not about policy rather than revenue.

How does that address imported products where a carbon tax may not be applied the same way, or at all. If I buy an imported stereo, it's assumed that there are petroleum based products therein, but I'm buying the stereo, not the petrolum products used to manufacture it. And, the country I bought it from may not have a carbon tax. So now I start wanting to buy imported products from countries which don't have carbon taxes.

james | November 19, 2007, 5:31pm | #

Ken and joe mankind caused global warming is a fraud. I support preventing people who don't know shit about science from making documentaries geared to alarming the ignorati

prolefeed | November 19, 2007, 5:37pm | #

Especially when taxation is more often thatn not about policy rather than revenue.

No, taxation is almost always about raising more revenue, under the guise of implementing a policy that allegedly helps society.

In Hawaii, the politicians tacked on a hefty cell phone tax to help out on 911 call service. They've built all the stuff the tax was supposed to finance, using just one-fourth of the money collected so far, and now the politicians are refusing to refund the surplus millions collected or even to remove the tax. They want to build up money from the tax so they can raid the special fund and go buy some more votes with it.

MikeP | November 19, 2007, 5:39pm | #

How does that address imported products where a carbon tax may not be applied the same way, or at all.

By the magic words "global harmonized carbon tax."

I said that calculating the tax was trivial. I didn't say that applying it was trivial.

james | November 19, 2007, 5:43pm | #

Global warming is a natural phenomenon look at the history of the planet we have had ice ages and periods where the planet was hot. All of this during periods when mankind either was not around or was very primitive. Why is anyone discussing any kind of taxes to try and stop this. Chicken Littles the sky is not falling.

Ken Shultz | November 19, 2007, 5:54pm | #

"Ken and joe mankind caused global warming is a fraud."

Even if it is, james, would you rather pay taxes on pollution or income?

Matt J | November 19, 2007, 5:59pm | #

Even if it is, james, would you rather pay taxes on pollution or income?

Can I choose none of the above?

Ken Shultz | November 19, 2007, 6:03pm | #

Would you rather have a progressive tax on income or a flat tax? Would you rather have a flat tax or a sales tax? Would you rather have a sales tax or a tax on carbon emissions?

...the farther I go down that list, the more I like it. ...and we've got an example of at least one progressive Democrat (You don't mind if I call you that, do you joe?) who seems like he'd go for it.

James! You won't get in the way of what could be the only chance we'll ever have to get rid of the income tax, will you?!

CN | November 19, 2007, 6:06pm | #

that's funny.

James linked to junkscience citation that had the "Journal of Geophysical Research", which is published by the American Geophysical Union.

Science Magazine:
The American Meteorological Society (6), the American Geophysical Union (7), and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) all have issued statements in recent years concluding that the evidence for human modification of climate is compelling (8).
from hier.

"Water accounts for about 90% of the Earth's greenhouse effect"

that is doubtful.
hier

IANACS, but why should junk science and its agenda somehow be more convincing than these chaps?

The AGU, whose journal is cited, has thoughts on water vapor. ("Thus an understanding of the mechanisms distributing water vapor through the atmosphere and of water vapor's effects on atmospheric radiation and circulation is vital to estimating long-term changes in climate.")

even if James's assertion were true, is there climate change? Is it changing at a faster rate than earlier? If so, what are potential consequences (good and bad), and since there will be change, what is a portfolio of behaviors you'd engage in to take advantage of the goods and the bads?

james | November 19, 2007, 6:09pm | #

How about no taxes for either? Go RP abolish the government sanctioned theft bureacracy called the IRS.

VM | November 19, 2007, 6:10pm | #

krap. that was moi.

sorry.

james | November 19, 2007, 6:11pm | #

I didn't include the entire article for obvious reasons. Read it and then you will understand it better. You can join the global warming hucksters if you want to just don't expect me to pay for it.

vm | November 19, 2007, 6:14pm | #

You know, it's your charming mannerisms that really motivate me to listen to you.

And how you immediately rush to throwing all non strict believers into the other camp.

Nearly as attractive as wsdave's intellectual curiosity and DUNDEROOOOOOs silliness.

Isaac Bartram | November 19, 2007, 6:38pm | #

See here http://www.abd.org.uk/green_myths.htm and here
http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/index.html
james

The page your first link goes to was Last updated 2002-10-27. Many of its questions have since been satisfied.

junkscience.com likewise tends to use outdated info which is fairly easily countered with citations from other sources.

These are hardly good sources to use to debunk AGW.

I tend to find the whole AGW idea faintly preposterous and have a notion that a lot of folks will find themselves slightly embarrassed in twenty years or so that they took such strident positions on the subject today.

But I'm certainly not going to get involved in any pissing contests over it either.

Because I don't know any more about the subject than joe does and hence can give no more qualified an opinion in the matter.

vm | November 19, 2007, 6:53pm | #

The page your first link goes to was Last updated 2002-10-27. Many of its questions have since been satisfied.

junkscience.com likewise tends to use outdated info which is fairly easily countered with citations from other sources.

These are hardly good sources to use to debunk AGW.
Isaac said it better. /kicks pebble.

Paul | November 19, 2007, 6:58pm | #

Prolefeed:

No, taxation is almost always about raising more revenue, under the guise of implementing a policy that allegedly helps society.

Let me rephrase: national tax policy is about policy, not so much about revenue.

Yes, local tax policy is always about jacking the consumer "for the children" and claiming it's not about the money.

The feds admitted that the tax code was about policy and not about revenue several years back. Sorry, I'm lazy and as such I have no link. It was an interview on CSPAN some years ago during the Clinton administration.

Ken Shultz

Even if it is, james, would you rather pay taxes on pollution or income?

If I may answer for the token liberal: Yes

James! You won't get in the way of what could be the only chance we'll ever have to get rid of the income tax, will you?!

Ken, your hearts in the right place, but it ain't gonna happen. You'll get both. Trust me on this.

joshua corning | November 19, 2007, 7:42pm | #

Even if it is, james, would you rather pay taxes on pollution or income?

If CO2 is not causing global warming then it is not a pollution....it is plant food.

Ken Shultz | November 19, 2007, 8:53pm | #

"Ken, your hearts in the right place, but it ain't gonna happen. You'll get both. Trust me on this."

I saw deep cuts in marginal tax rates with my very own eyes in my very own lifetime.

Grand coalition. It could happen. Nixon went to China--anything can happen. Especially if it makes sense.

Sean W. Malone | November 19, 2007, 9:32pm | #

Am I going to have to intellectually smack joe around AGAIN? Gah...

1. Does anyone else find it odd that so many people who bitched about the "hoax" the other day and who were calling for Reason to fire Ron Bailey (*Joe*) now seem to be ok with him reporting on the IPCC recommendations? Man I sure do... I guess it's ok if he reports on this topic provided that the information he's reporting is supporting their view.


and now, for the important part:

2. The InterGOVERNMENTAL Panel on Climate Change is made up of *shock* POLITICIANS!! It's not a panel of scientists and according to the IPCC guidelines, they are allowed to edit the submitted material in order to more closely match the (bureaucrat-written) summary. The summary, it must be noted, is often written in advance of the individual chapters or any section written by the scientists - who are only there for expert testimony. Do not for one instant be fooled into thinking this paper (it is NOT a study!) is in anyway scientific.

So let's try to keep that in mind and have some better context applied to this whole damn issue right from the start. Make no mistake here, the IPCC is a government body and it's ultimate purpose is to make POLICY decisions - its purpose is not, and simply couldn't be, scientifically controlled climate research.


For government officials, this isn't really a science issue so much as a "what shall we do about it!?" public-policy issue. And since that is the case, we all have to realize that they're already operating under two basic assumptions:

A. Global Warming is happening to such a degree that something MUST be done (i.e. IPCC's 90% likely major catastrophe claims)

and
B. That we (humanity) actually has the power to do something - which is one of several reasons why the idea that global warming is human-caused because of nasty CO2 "pollution" is so appealing to them! ***(CO2 is rather important to such processes as photosynthesis, so I find it hard to call a commonly occurring natural compound, 'pollution')***


IF Global Warming is actually just a natural phenomenon, which a very large group of highly respected scientists believe and regularly publish peer-reviewed studies about (though which are much less frequently reported by famed science journalist Leonardo DiCaprio among others...) THEN an Intergovernmental Panel's sweeping public-policy changes would be a waste of time and resources.


Go with me on a little thought experiment and see if we can't follow the money trail & personal incentives...

...Senator "Bob" knows that an election is coming up next year and he'd like to be senator another term. Over the past 2 years, Bob hasn't really done very much that's particularly visible and he voted for the war in Iraq which isn't very popular now and is worried about his constituents who might not think he's working in their interests anymore... This is bad for Senator Bob. Unfortunately, it's too late to do much about the war, besides, at this point it's easier to back-pedal and blame the President for that whole mess (better to distance oneself), so he probably won't win many votes talking about militaristic defense. But wait a minute! Global Warming is a big issue, and everyone's talking about it a lot now so some of Bob's constituents are getting rather worried.

Of course, Bob doesn't know anything about the science - he got a law degree 30 years ago after all. However, Bob does know that there are two sides to this issue - on one side, some scientists believe that there are highly complex causes that are as of yet, pretty unknown and that because warming and cooling periods occur regularly on a dynamic planet such as Earth, there's probably nothing to worry about. On the other side, there are computer models, shiny graphs and shocking anecdotes about ice-caps melting, animal species dying out and warnings of a major global catastrophe to occur "soon". And, because it's all wrapped up in a nice little package, this catastrophe will be mankind's fault for driving cars - just like in a science fiction movie!


Senator Bob weighs his options:

1. Say to his constituents, "the Earth appears to be warming, but there are no conclusive causes to be found and it's probably going to be fine - I guess you'll have to judge me on the other issues you care about like my poor war record."
2. Say to his constituents, "The Earth is heading for eminent disaster and if you re-elect me, *I* can avert a major catastrophe! I also care deeply about your family and the environment."

Now - depending on what political ideology Bob has, choice number 2 has even more benefits. He might get kickbacks from an energy lobby and car manufacturers trying to manipulate the impending legislation, or perhaps he'll rake it in from environmental groups, journalists & the screen actors guild. On top of all that, he's also got a license to raise taxes and write new laws - because of course, he can't do anything about the immediate devastation that is sure to visit his constituents without a larger staff, a raise for himself and the authority to sponsor a bunch of new agencies and programs... all those need funding too.

And the best part of all!? Bob's previous record is all but ignored!



Ok.

So does that little scenario seem plausible to you? The bottom line is, catastrophes sell, will get politicians elected/re-elected, give license for reduction of freedom (which is always the trade off when we make new laws) and to raise taxes to fund new programs created by an expanding government and word of them travels much faster than word of non-events.

You put a nut up against a sensible person on TV, the nut wins. Every time.


Don't let these nuts use the federal government in further unconstitutional and ridiculously imprudent ways.

Francisco Torres | November 19, 2007, 9:43pm | #

Peer-reviewed estimates of the social cost of carbon23 in 2005 average US$12 per tonne of CO2, but the range from 100 estimates is large (-$3 to $95/tCO2).

Excuse me, but how would one calculate a Cost outside a Market? I smell a Calculation Problem here...

Peer-reviewed... what? What was the subject? Economic analysis of CO2 emissions? Despite what some may think, scientists do not necessarily make good economists. The idea that you can calculate a "cost" outside the realm of the marketplace indicates immediately that the person doing the calculation is not applying economics, just his or her opinion.

MikeP | November 19, 2007, 11:02pm | #

Excuse me, but how would one calculate a Cost outside a Market?

If I go to your house and break a window that costs you $100 to replace, the social cost of my action is $100. Similarly, if I emit a tonne of CO2 that causes damages of $12, the social cost of that tonne of CO2 is $12.

The idea that you can calculate a "cost" outside the realm of the marketplace indicates immediately that the person doing the calculation is not applying economics, just his or her opinion.

These papers are written not by climate scientists or Nobel Prize winning proselytizers, but by economists specifically studying the environment. William Nordhaus at Yale is the gold standard here.

Sean W. Malone | November 20, 2007, 12:21am | #

How do you calculate that one tonne of CO2 causes $12 worth of damage though? And damage to what?

Isn't that whole concept just a tad bit premature since there is no clear understanding of what the result of increases in CO2 really is?

MikeP | November 20, 2007, 12:31am | #

How do you calculate that one tonne of CO2 causes $12 worth of damage though? And damage to what?

It's hard to do, and it is quite fair to be skeptical of their numbers. Note that a range of $3 to $95 means they are pretty skeptical with each other. But the people who try to figure these costs out are not morons, nor are they deluded or lying. They are simply endeavoring to put economic costs on the damages implied by climatological predictions in order to determine the lowest cost way to deal with global warming.

Nordhaus finds that the best strategy to deal with global warming is to charge a global harmonized carbon tax equal to the social cost of CO2 -- about a dime per gallon of gasoline today. The second best strategy? Do nothing but research the issue more.

MikeP | November 20, 2007, 12:37am | #

Similarly, if I emit a tonne of CO2 that causes damages of $12, the social cost of that tonne of CO2 is $12.

Of course, it cannot be forgotten that that tonne of CO2 in the atmosphere with the social cost of $12 is a collateral effect of -- in the case of, say, gasoline -- a social benefit approaching $350.

Global warming proselytizers forget this all the time, acting as though people burn carbon just for yucks.

sam-hec | November 20, 2007, 12:51am | #

Pity I had to work today.

Anyway, James. Quiz time.

What is the half-life of an imbalance water vapor in the Earth's atmosphere?

What is the half-life of an imbalance of CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere?

What is the minimum time period looked at by climatologists (as opposed to Meteorologists)?

prolefeed | November 20, 2007, 1:27am | #

The feds admitted that the tax code was about policy and not about revenue several years back.

HAHAHA! Yeah, those politicians and bureaucrats would sure love to convince you of that. The details of the tax code are politicized, sure, and about "policy", if you define that as "penalizing opponents and rewarding supporters". But all levels of government are trying to steal as much of your money as they can get their grubby paws on.

Paul | November 20, 2007, 1:40am | #

HAHAHA! Yeah, those politicians and bureaucrats would sure love to convince you of that.

Considering they used to deny it, I thought it was remarkable progress. Finally, I thought, they're beginning to admit it.

Yes, of course they're trying to get my money. But we have this new fangled thing called "deductions" which allow the government to set all kinds of policy by rewarding the good (giveth) and punishing the bad (taketh away) behavior.

Paul | November 20, 2007, 1:51am | #

proselytizers forget this all the time, acting as though people burn carbon just for yucks.

Excellent point, Mikep. Methinks the people flying all over the place to locales exotique to yak about GW probably think their burning carbon is having some value.

Sean Malone:

thank you for bringing the discussion back to what the IPCC really is. Even I forget sometimes.

***(CO2 is rather important to such processes as photosynthesis, so I find it hard to call a commonly occurring natural compound, 'pollution')***

Thank you again. I cringe everytime I hear some wack-job on NPR glibly refer to CO2 as "pollution". Like it's some kind of toxic particulate matter being spewed into the atmosphere by a moustache-twirling top-hatted industrialist who owns some smokestack industry using child labor.

Guy Montag | November 20, 2007, 8:25am | #

The calculation of carbon tax on energy production is trivial. You simply tax all fossil fuels somewhere between the ground and where they are burned based on the amount of carbon in them.

Excuse me, MY carbon is organic and beneficial, plus I drive alternative fueled vehicles. So I should be getting a $0.40/gal. refund for all the carbon taxes you people should be paying.

Plus I should have HOV access no matter how many people are in my vehicle. Free reserved organic hydrocarbon hybrid vehicles downtown too please.

thank you

joe | November 20, 2007, 9:17am | #

Sean Malone,

Can you think of a distinction that can be drawn between the IPCC report and the hoax story other than whose political agenda their conclusions support?

I can: one of them is true and based on sound science, and the other is false and based on wishful thinking.

:You're putting the cart before the horse. Look for the truth, and let the politics follow from that.

joe | November 20, 2007, 9:21am | #

Is anyone familiar with the Paranoid Style of American Politics?

Those elitists are just trying to put one over on us for their nefarious purposes. The scope of the consensus that has emerged among scientists studying the issue just goes how far this thing goes, man.

sam-hec | November 20, 2007, 9:57am | #

"Thank you again. I cringe everytime I hear some wack-job on NPR glibly refer to CO2 as "pollution". Like it's some kind of toxic particulate matter being spewed into the atmosphere by a moustache-twirling top-hatted industrialist who owns some smokestack industry using child labor."

Paul,
Lead, Mercury, Arsenic, Light, Noise are all naturally occuring things in nature. We call them pollution when we want to. It's a collectively subjective definition, dependent only only on the property of quantity. If we collectively feel there is too much CO2, then *POOF* Voila! it iz Pollution!

libertreee | November 20, 2007, 10:10am | #

Excuse me, MY carbon is organic and beneficial, plus I drive alternative fueled vehicles. So I should be getting a $0.40/gal. refund for all the carbon taxes you people should be paying. Guy Montag
Ah, and enlightened imperialist! Way to pick up the white man's burden, Guy!

May all our future wars of choice be waged with hybrids!

Guy Montag | November 20, 2007, 10:22am | #

Correction:

Plus I should have HOV access no matter how many people are in my vehicle. Free reserved organic hydrocarbon hybrid vehicles downtown too please.

Should read:

Plus I should have HOV access no matter how many people are in my vehicle. Free reserved PARKING for organic hydrocarbon hybrid vehicles downtown too please.

Sorry, free vehicles to all rubs my sensibilities the wrong way.

Guy Montag | November 20, 2007, 10:26am | #

May all our future wars of choice be waged with hybrids!

Actually, many of the US Army vehicles are multi-fuel capable already. The sad thing these days is that the press is always a couple of wars behind on their information, while accusing the Army of always fighting the previous war, of course.

Also, if waterboarding was so lethal we could be running the diesel vehicles on solyent diesel if the silly 'humanitarians' would stop mucking up the works.

joe | November 20, 2007, 10:27am | #

libertree,

Guy is a joker. And a pretty good at that.

For example, one of his solutions to our petroleum problem is to advocate for the use of free-range, organic, cetacean biodiesel.

Give it a minute to sink in. That's some funny right there.

Skoal | November 20, 2007, 11:26am | #

How broad is the scientific consensus on the understanding of the natural processes that affect global climate absent human activity?

Sean W. Malone | November 20, 2007, 12:38pm | #

"Can you think of a distinction that can be drawn between the IPCC report and the hoax story other than whose political agenda their conclusions support?

I can: one of them is true and based on sound science, and the other is false and based on wishful thinking."




Do you not even bother to read what I write Joe? The IPCC is a panel of GOVERNMENT officials. "Based on sound science" my aching ass! It's based on the assumption that international governmental policy is the most significant factor affecting the environment - and then finding scientists who will agree with that position! Considering the alternative makes politicians around the world seem a lot less useful, we should all be rather skeptical of whether or not the IPCC has any valid motives what-so-ever.

And I'm not writing about the "hoax" anymore, you're way off base with everything and if anyone wants to read why, I already pwned you on the other board. I'm not interested in continually providing reason to someone who doesn't even bother to read what I've written, much less even bother to read actual studies. Especially when I link to them directly to make it easy!



And to Skoal:

I covered the issue of "consensus" in my earlier discussion with Joe - according to a recent (extremely comprehensive) study by Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte, only 7% of peer-reviewed, published climatologists explicitly believe humanity is "at least somewhat" responsible for global warming trends. Only 45% have *implicitly* agreed with that position.


Like the term "theory", the word consensus does not have the same meaning in science that it has colloquially. It refers not to a majority opinion, but to the current prevailing hypothesis.

A hypothesis, as anyone who had high-school science should remember, is almost at the very bottom of the scientific method. There is nothing particularly robust about a hypothesis, nor is it remotely confirmed with research, and that's where the cause of global warming is right now.


When scientists start using terms like "theory of CO2 emissions" or "Gore's law of global warming", then we can assume that some significant research and evidence has been done on the topic. Prior to that time however, if we listen to people like the IPCC we're letting government hijack reason and run away with more rights and more money because they scare us.



What I'm saying here is:

If you look at this issue from a scientific perspective, there's simply not enough evidence or understanding to make sweeping conclusions - and the debate is raging among climatologists. So, it makes no sense to be talking about carbon-taxes, caps on emissions, banning SUVs, or whatever else. Yet.

If you look at it from a political perspective however, it makes PERFECT sense to talk about all that stuff! Politicians get elected based on what they *promise* to do... Global Warming is one of the best things that's ever happened to them - nebulous science, results that won't manifest themselves for dozens of years at the earliest...

This is great for them! Politicians everywhere can say "We're all going to die unless you elect me, and allow me to raise taxes and start programs", then when they get elected they have a blank check to fix this (and add to the budgets for said programs whatever pork they might like) and THEN at the end of it all, if nothing comes of Global Warming and no catastrophes are reported, they'll either be dead or get to say "see, my policies worked! re-elect me!" and if something DOES come of it (which it won't), then they get to say "Damn (insert opposing politician here), if it weren't for those deniers we'd all be fine now."


It is WIN-WIN to take a position like the IPCC - IF YOU'RE A POLITICIAN. If however, you have some intellectual integrity and don't have anything to profit from just the idea of worldwide disasters, the issue becomes a lot more complex.

Neu Mejican | November 20, 2007, 7:54pm | #

Sean W. Malone,

A man who has it all figured out.

Follow his lead and ye shall be free.

Don't be hoodwinked by the lesser minds that may doubt the veracity of his conclusions.

Dude, you have a huge chip on that shoulder.
What, did the IPCC pick on you in gym class?

Re: Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte http://www.desmogblog.com/schultes-analysis-not-published-not-going-to-be
http://climatepatrol.blogspot.com/2007/09/consensus-and-sea-ice-record-tandem.html
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/fastsearch?order=date&IncludeBlogs=15&search=Schulte

Reggie Rasmussen | November 20, 2007, 11:50pm | #

Let's do something to help. Are you familiar with the ground floor movement to take solar to the masses by a company called Citizenre? They are trying market solar with an approach similar to satelite TV, cellular telephones, and alarm systems. That is to provide the customer a complete solar system with no upfront charges and make money from a service contract. In this case the service contract would be a rent agreement. They intend to put a complete solar system on a clients home. When the system produces electricity, it will lower the bill from the current utility provider. In most cases the savings from the lower bill will more than cover the rent fee that the company intends to charge. The company currently has no product available but intends to deploy in the middle of 2008. They are currently taking reservations and have over 25,500 takers so far. I have written several articles on this company in my blog and even have a couple of vidoes that I have recorded at wwwsolarjoules.com. Feel free to take a look. I welcome comments. As in any start up business, a chance exists that they may never get off the ground and fulfill any preorders, but if this is the case - the potential client has not lost anything. If you cannot afford the upfront cost of solar today, this may turn out to be a great alternative. If you would like information on the company go to www.jointhesolution.com/razmataz

sam-hec | November 21, 2007, 12:59am | #

"When scientists start using terms like "theory of CO2 emissions" or "Gore's law of global warming", "

Lessee, Svante Arrhenus in 1896 with the first theoretical model of CO2 as a greenhouse gas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_Arrhenius

Sean W. Malone | November 21, 2007, 1:24am | #

Nothing against the IPCC specifically... though I suppose I have something against the Nobel Peace Prize bestowed upon them (explain to me again how a government panel which has so far only reported on individual scientist findings on environmental issues constitutes a contribution to world peace?), but that's not a huge deal considering that particular prize barely means anything if it's given to dictators and ineffectual presidents as well...

I do have a thing against government in general though, and specifically government using the language of science to scare people into giving away more rights and writing a blank check to politicians who have a track-record of abusing blank checks. Especially considering the scientific language is being used in absolute terms when the science itself is not absolute.


Oh... and I read the blogs you linked to, and I'll just say two things.

1. Regardless of what Oreskes might have to say about Schulte's study or her ad hominem attacks about him being a medical researcher, her study still constitutes data that's at least 3 years old and upwards of 15 in many cases. Besides, debate is to be expected when one person's findings differ significantly than someone else's... Admittedly, I am slightly inclined to give Schulte the benefit of some doubt precisely because I've observed how much hyperbole is on the pro AGW side and because his study takes into account more recent data. With all due respect to Oreskes, in the past 3-4 years the whole issue has seen a lot more press than it has in the past 20 so it doesn't seem terribly unlikely to me that more scientists are taking another look. Either way, there does seem to be a pretty severe tendency for people who support AGW to spend more effort trying to shut people up and using ad hominems than discussing the issues openly and honestly.

2. I'm really just a layman trying to apply some common sense to this issue. Other people have their blogs, I have mine... And I can link to blogs which support my ideas too... For example, one that talks about flaws in the original Oreskes study:

http://motls.blogspot.com/2005/05/oreskes-study-errata.html

However, none of this proves much of anything - so for future reference, I'd rather be linked to actual studies if at all possible instead of other people's blogs.



As far as it goes, I think the whole issue is blown out of proportion by everyone in the media. As Christopher Hitchens & Michael Shermer like to point out, we are a species that likes to find patterns - even if we don't have enough information for those patterns to mean anything. This planet is at best guess 4 billion years old. We've been collecting data consistently for about 100 years... It doesn't take much of a mathematician to realize that we know barely anything at all about large scale patterns in weather. A few degrees warmer or colder regardless of the cause isn't going to kill off all life, and if people aren't fit enough to adapt to such a moderate change then we've got much bigger problems than whether or not we have put too much CO2 into the air.

Personally, my bullshit meter is through the roof on this issue and I would simply pose that the people who benefit the most from a pro-AGW position are politicians and subsequently scientists with government grants. And not-so-shockingly, that's who's making the biggest noise about it. As someone who is passionately pro-liberty, pro-free markets and pro-science, I can't help but be a bit miffed at the sweeping, international regulations that are clearly on the horizon, the tax increases that are bound to come and myriad of new bureaucracies which are on the verge of being created to deal with something that is in all likelihood, not going to be that big of a deal. There are always people, quite often in government, ready to tell us the sky is falling. It's not.

And by the way - Reggie: If that company is able to make solar power rentals cheaper than the up-front cost and actually make solar energy worth paying for, THAT would be exactly how to solve any energy problem! Government solutions are going to be freedom-crippling, inefficient and uselessly slow (as always). I wish that company much luck and success. Hopefully they aren't regulated out of existence by politicians who "know what's best." A free market's ability to reward innovative thinkers is the answer here.

Sean W. Malone | November 21, 2007, 1:33am | #

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_Arrhenius

Funny that this article mentions Knut Angstrom and his 1908 paper on how human emissions of CO2 would help keep the planet warmer and that that would be a good thing in order to feed growing populations.


This is something else that is simply not being discussed. I mean no one seems to disagree that the earth's overall temperature is increasing - but so many are so quick to rush in saying that it's catastrophic. Why!?

Does evolution not apply anymore? Do animals and plants not have the ability to adapt to shifts in climate? Don't we??


Even if humans are 100% responsible, which seems virtually impossible, why is this the end of the world?

sam-hec | November 21, 2007, 1:49am | #

Some levity:
http://tinyurl.com/2xvhmt

"This is something else that is simply not being discussed. I mean no one seems to disagree that the earth's overall temperature is increasing - but so many are so quick to rush in saying that it's catastrophic. Why!?"

I disagree it is being addressed by the 'global warmers'. Short story is the rapidity of the disruption could exceed our ability to adapt. Mitigate CO2 and that rapidity is lessened.

Long story:
http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=11000661N4A0

"Does evolution not apply anymore? Do animals and plants not have the ability to adapt to shifts in climate? Don't we??"

Adaptation takes time. If we don't have time...Make time by mitigating the stressors. (or die out)

"Even if humans are 100% responsible, which seems virtually impossible, why is this the end of the world?"

This is more about the challenge to our civilization to evolve from our current Level Zero Civ to a Level One Civ; which is defined in part by control of the climate and energy system of the planet.

Or devolve into savages.

sam-hec | November 21, 2007, 1:58am | #

"Either way, there does seem to be a pretty severe tendency for people who support AGW to spend more effort trying to shut people up and using ad hominems than discussing the issues openly and honestly."

funny I kinda thought it as being the other way round. I mean look at the way Al Gore is treated. Most of the folks who complain about him resort to ad homenims instead of looking seriously at the same things he is looking at. But why bother doing homework when one can point and laugh at the big fat hipocritical Goracle. Similar situation wiht Mann and Hansen. The critics are mostly hyperbole and little homework.

Sean W. Malone | November 21, 2007, 2:55am | #

Perhaps people make fun of Al Gore because he has no background in science and a lengthy history of saying idiotic things and contradicting himself. And as far as I've really seen, Gore is the only one anyone ever does ad homs about... and in either case - Gore seems to be doing ok, so let's not cry about the poor treatment of the guy who got an academy award and a nobel prize for his speeches.


Furthermore, several papers have run articles about critics of AGW being smeared - For example, the UK Telegraph on 11/03/2007 wrote:


Timothy Ball, a former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg in Canada, has received five deaths threats by email since raising concerns about the degree to which man was affecting climate change.

One of the emails warned that, if he continued to speak out, he would not live to see further
global warming.

"Western governments have pumped billions of dollars into careers and institutes and they feel threatened," said the professor. "I can tolerate being called a sceptic because all scientists should be sceptics, but then they started calling us deniers, with all the connotations of the Holocaust. That is an obscenity. It has got really nasty and personal."

Last week, Professor Ball appeared in The Great Global Warming Swindle, a Channel 4 documentary in which several scientists claimed the theory of manmade global warming had become a "religion", forcing alternative explanations to be ignored.

Richard Lindzen, the professor of Atmospheric Science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology who also appeared on the documentary recently claimed: "Scientists who dissent from the alarmism have seen their funds disappear, their work derided, and themselves labelled as industry stooges."

Sean W. Malone | November 21, 2007, 3:08am | #

Oh... and...

"devolve into savages" !?


Geeeeeeesh... I'm getting to be somewhat shocked by the level of crazy that passes for mainstream thought on this topic anymore. Honestly, if you think that "catastrophe" or "Holy god, we're all going to die MAJOR catastrophe" passes for legitimate debate on the subject of whether or not global warming is even that big of an issue in it's worst case scenario, then we're really not doing well.


I'm getting a little frustrated that I find myself taking the "nut" position on this issue and that as a "nut", I'm the one suggesting that we're NOT all going to die. Unfortunately the joke will be on me because even when it's quite clear that it's not a big deal and 50 years go by with no major catastrophe due to climate change, I will very likely be stuck with the bill for governments dumbassery. Goooooooooooood deal.

Neu Mejican | November 21, 2007, 11:36am | #

Sean W. Malone,

I'd rather be linked to actual studies if at all possible instead of other people's blogs.

That is all well and good, but you should notice that the Schulte "study" you referenced is not an "actual study" anymore than the two studies I linked to...

Schulte's study was submitted to a peer reviewed journal which has said it would not be published due to lack of rigor ("too patchy" - update me if this has changed).

Your willingness to use it as a point to defend your position while requiring the other side to produce evidence of a higher quality (which you then ignore) makes me think you are not being objective about the issue.

A skeptical attitude is important in science.
Attention to possible sources of bias are important in science.

The IPCC report, if you read it, does a lot of work to highlight the degree of certainty, the degree of uncertainty, the potential range of outcomes, and the hypothetical consequences of different decisions. It is not an alarmist document by any means.

sam-hec | November 21, 2007, 11:38am | #

""Geeeeeeesh... I'm getting to be somewhat shocked by the level of crazy that passes for mainstream thought on this topic anymore. Honestly, if you think that "catastrophe" or "Holy god, we're all going to die MAJOR catastrophe" passes for legitimate debate on the subject of whether or not global warming is even that big of an issue in it's worst case scenario, then we're really not doing well."

Sean Malone,
I never used the words 'Catastrophe', or 'we're all gonna die!'. This is what I hate about these discussions the so called climate skeptic side keeps ignoring the actual science and keeps misquoting or taking out of context the words of the 'global warmers'. I am optimistic that we can pursue the path to a Level 1 Civilization, but getting you guys to see that path is like pulling teeth.

"I'm getting a little frustrated that I find myself taking the "nut" position on this issue and that as a "nut", I'm the one suggesting that we're NOT all going to die. Unfortunately the joke will be on me because even when it's quite clear that it's not a big deal and 50 years go by with no major catastrophe due to climate change, I will very likely be stuck with the bill for governments dumbassery. Goooooooooooood deal."

I never said suggested that doing nothing path means 'we're all going to die'. Humanity will survive this the question is, will we survive with our civilization intact.

If you don't want to see a big government 'dumbassery', then you need to stop around with climate cranks (who are just there to waste critical time) and start coming up with minimal / non-governmental solutions based on what works, like I have repeatedly here on Hit n' Run. Here it is again:


I don't like too many regulations, as the climate change future will require flexibility with which to adapt to the coming changes. Regulations get in the way.

The best start is to stop providing corporate welfare to the fossil fuel companies. In the U.S. this is peanuts at $15 billion a year in various monies and protections, but even doing away with that is an important signal to industry. Elsewhere, this would be harder, as fuels are often directly subsidized.

Next end subsidies and many regulations in the agricultural indus