Paul Krugman: Ooo, What a Giveaway

In the November 15 issue of Rolling Stone, one more in their continuing series of 40th anniversary celebrations, this time centering on interviews with Big Thinkers, Paul Krugman is in the mix.

Asked to name his great inspiration, he says: Isaac Asimov's Foundation series--a tale of super social scientists who can accurately pinpoint laws of mass social behavior that allow them to predict, and manipulate, all of human civilization and future history. "That's always what I wanted to be," saith the economist turned pundit. Good luck with that project, Dr. Krugman.

Previous Rolling Stone 40th anniversary blogging by me here and here.

Comments

Aresen | November 3, 2007, 12:36am | #

The Foundation Series fascinated me when I was in my teens - the notion of a Mathematically Exact Social Science which could bring peace and justice was exhilarating.

The older I got, however, the more I realized the totalitarian implications of such a science. The novels are really quite repulsive.

mozzie | November 3, 2007, 12:39am | #

I'm trying to shoot for something a bit more humble, like I don't know, creating my own universe, with my own race of sentient beings to manipulate...oh wait...

thoreau | November 3, 2007, 12:46am | #

I used to be friends with a guy who claimed that all of the world could be understood if I just studied the Foundation novels and the electoral college.

I'm pretty sure he was stoned when he said it. For that matter, I'm pretty sure he was stoned most of the time.

Ken Shultz | November 3, 2007, 12:48am | #

As I recall, and this is goin' way back, didn't "the Mule" mess that super-scientist's shit up?

Aresen | November 3, 2007, 1:00am | #

Ken Schultz

You're right. The Mule conquered the First Foundation, but was beaten by the Second Foundation. Asimov had to do a little twisting of his major premise to make that come out right. I still remember my outrage when I realized that "Preem Palaver" (sp?) was the First Speaker of the Second Foundation. Of all the cheap-shot, Asimovian puns....

Neu Mejican | November 3, 2007, 1:01am | #

DR.T,

I remember that I read the foundation trilogy during the years that I was ALWAYS stoned.

I remember virtually no details. I don't remember thinking much about the electoral college in those days.

But to be fair, I don't remember much from those days.
I wonder if we hung out.

mtc | November 3, 2007, 1:03am | #

Well it was a hell of a good premise. You could say all Seldon was trying to do was tuck away a little 'restart' capital for rebuilding the galaxy. Trade was the primary means by which the Foundation brought 'civilization' back to the galaxy, at least in the early books. The whole thing did make for a bit of a weird story arc once you realized the good guys always win without trying ('til The Mule came along anyway).

At least Krugman didn't say he wanted to be like the members of the Second Foundation.

jerry | November 3, 2007, 1:40am | #

Ha Ha, Brain Doherty, you're too funnay! So snarky!

And what books were you reading and what did you want to be when you were a kid?

Do you get paid for this shit?

iih | November 3, 2007, 2:03am | #

OK, since there is no weekend thread (or is it not the weekend yet?), NPR's All Things Considered played a segment from Ron Paul's recent excellent talk addressed to the Arab American Anti-Discrimination league. Here it is. (The segment before they had Lieberman on defending the recent Congress resolutions against Iran. So it was great to hear Paul after that. It will give a lot of attention to him amongst the anti-war NPR listeners. So I recommend first listening to the two segments preceding Paul's linked segment to give context).

iih | November 3, 2007, 2:05am | #

Since NPR was mentioned (I know this is off topic, but where is my weekend thread?), I wonder wy the animosity by libertarians towards NPR? Is it because of the 13% of their revenue that comes from the Federal government? This always bewildered me.

iih | November 3, 2007, 2:14am | #

correction: It was the Arab American Institute. The full speech can be found here.

rectal cranial inversion | November 3, 2007, 2:30am | #

Krugman is such a jackass! As a kid, he wanted to learn more about the science that saved an entire Galaxy from a dark age. OMG! Think of what he could have been doing? He could have been masturbating to Ayn Rand telling him the beauty of being a selfish arrogant prick.

good luck on your project doherty. i'm glad you were reading the right books.

Art-P.O.G. | November 3, 2007, 4:46am | #

i'm glad you were reading the right books.

You must read Frank Miller's "The Dark Knight Strikes Again". Probably the most punk rock satire I've evr read.

Rick Barton | November 3, 2007, 4:58am | #

accurately pinpoint laws of mass social behavior

"Pinpoint"- That's the rub. Free society is made of freely acting individuals such that pinpointing laws is out of the question. The freer the individuals in society, the harder it is to predict. The threat is that folks like Paul Krugman are all too willing to impose coercion so that their dreams of predictability are more attainable.

In Jr high school, a free economy was made appealing to me by, of all people; Robert Heilbroner. In his The Making of Economic Society. In explaining capitalism, he said something like: "What keeps prices from going too high? The market. What keeps goods on the shelves to buy? The market. What keeps causing the creation of better products for people to buy? The market"

isildur | November 3, 2007, 5:28am | #

Look! Trolls in their natural, unspoiled-by-man state!

RC | November 3, 2007, 7:49am | #

The thing I find most interesting in the Foundation is their lack of ability to predict or manipulate the weather. Even in science fiction global warming cannot be caused by man.

wayne | November 3, 2007, 7:57am | #

"Even in science fiction global warming cannot be caused by man."

Cheap shot! Joe will put your balls in a microwave and show you what global warming is all about for that remark.

Fluffy | November 3, 2007, 9:03am | #

Rectal -

What you and Krugman fail to see is the unfathomable arrogance of the Foundation's psychohistory in its basic conception.

The notion that all human action can be predicted and controlled in the aggregate requires a vast conceit. The minds of the scientists must be able to contain within them the minds of everyone else - and not only to contain them, but to be able to isolate them for study, and to play with them like brightly colored balls. That's truly shocking megalomania.

In many ways Seldon is the anti-Hayek, whose basic premise was that human behavior is too complex for central planning. Seldon, and Asimov, acknowledge the complexity, but just laugh and say, "No matter, us god-scientists will simply overcome that."

JW | November 3, 2007, 9:19am | #

psssst. Hey Paul, it's science fiction. Nice premise to hang your career from.

It was a long time ago, but I couldn't make it through even the first book in the Foundation series. It was tough slogging and eventually I just put it down out of boredom. And I generally like Asimov.

On that note, I just finished reading Peter Hamliton's 2,000 page, 2-book Pandora's Star series. A bit pedantic at times, but a very complelling story line and good cast of characters. Needed a dramatis persona in the first one, but did have one in the 2nd. There are so many characters, I was forgetting who was who, but didn't feel like going back and figuring out where they came in.

Still a good read and well worth the investment of time.

Mark Bahner | November 3, 2007, 9:26am | #

The thing I find most interesting in the Foundation is their lack of ability to predict or manipulate the weather. Even in science fiction global warming cannot be caused by man.

Well, the books that *I* was reading that had the biggest impression on me included Robert Heinlein's "Farmer in the Sky," and "The Door into Summer."

Farmer in the Sky involved terraforming Jupiter's moon, Ganymede. And you bet your bippy (as we used to in those days) that those folks could control global temperature!

P.S. As well as going from Earth to Jupiter in a few weeks in fusion-powered ships. (It's really pathetic that NASA isn't working on those.)

Bruce Majors | November 3, 2007, 9:31am | #

How amusing! It is always so funny when a left "liberal" icon is criticized and all the mental cases come out of the woodwork to fart on about Ayn Rand and the adenoidal girly men at NPR (journalists who typically have a "voice for the print media" rofl).

One would have thought Klugman's favorite literature would have been the Tales of the Brothers Grimm, since he is Fibby, one of Snow White's little men.

Russell | November 3, 2007, 10:25am | #

Oddly, Asimov's 'young adult' fiction translated into Arabic, and RAND reports abound in rumors that OBL is a fan of the late great Ike.

These were universally discounted, but as many recall Al Gore heartily endorsing Dune in his stoner days, and what with his since having claimed to strat the Butlerian Jihad, who's to deny Ike Asimov his place in history alongside the other greats of the pulpopod era, like Ron Hubbard?

Trey | November 3, 2007, 10:32am | #

ihh, perhaps you can confirm this, I understand that "The Foundation" was translated in Arabic as "Al Qaeda."

Coincidence? Perhaps...

Lamar | November 3, 2007, 10:33am | #

Well, now I have to go out and buy the Foundation series.

Trey | November 3, 2007, 10:34am | #

Speaking of coincidences, I posted the above independent of Russell.

I just got chills!

Pete | November 3, 2007, 10:38am | #

Hey didnt asimov write a 4th and 5th book too, where the protagonist gets laid by big breasted women? i could swear i read those when i was a teen... nothing like authors getting old and pervy!

"The minds of the scientists must be able to contain within them the minds of everyone else"

yo, you miss the point completely. the problem isnt that the scientist must use all information about the external world, it is that they must use their own info too, creating a loop of consequences. imagine a machine that can tell you if you're going to say "1" or "2". if you're a contrary fellow, if the machine predicts 1 you're going to say 2, and vice versa. so there is no answer the machine can give, it becomes a loop.

i should stop drinking

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 10:42am | #

I agree with the iih declaration" of this as the open/weekend political thread.

That said, this sums up some misgiving that lovers of freedom (libertarians?) have about the current administration. I usually disagree (>50%) with Leonard Pitts, but find his pieces well thought out and entertaining reading.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 10:48am | #

Hey didnt asimov write a 4th and 5th book too, where the protagonist gets laid by big breasted women?

Foundation's Edge and Foundation and Earth. Foundations edge was excellent. I waited literally decades for that one. Incidentally, that novel was Dr. Asimov's first entry into the NYT bestseller list.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 10:51am | #

...who's to deny Ike Asimov his place in history alongside the other greats of the pulpopod era, like Ron Hubbard?

Russell, how do you manage to read with your head so far up your ass? Just (sort of) kidding. ;-)

R C Dean | November 3, 2007, 11:12am | #

I wonder why the animosity by libertarians towards NPR?

Partly the taxpayer funding, and partly the lefty elitism that permeates their broadcasts.

Pro Libertate | November 3, 2007, 11:38am | #

R C Dean,

Also, left-leanings aside, NPR is heavily Beltway-centric in its viewpoints. Naturally.

I'm a big fan of Asimov. He was no libertarian, but my fondness for literature doesn't require ideological purity.

For myself, I've joined both the Second Foundation and the Bene Gesserit. You know, to cover all my bases.

iih | November 3, 2007, 11:42am | #

Trey:

ihh, perhaps you can confirm this, I understand that "The Foundation" was translated in Arabic as "Al Qaeda."

"Al Qaeda" literally means "the base" and could also be "the foundation".

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 11:49am | #

My favorite Isaac Asimov piece was a short story titled The Last Question. I was shocked to find it, in it's entirety, on the tubes, but here it is. If you haven't read it, you should.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 11:50am | #

"Al Qaeda" literally means "the base" and could also be "the foundation".

Wow!

iih | November 3, 2007, 11:55am | #

I agree with the iih declaration" of this as the open/weekend political thread.

At some point last night I actually hesitated weather it is the weekend already. It seems that I now know thait is weekend when the H&R's weekend thread appears on the blog.

iih | November 3, 2007, 11:56am | #

Wow!

I thought everyone new what it meant!

Neu Mejican | November 3, 2007, 12:01pm | #

iih,

Me too. It has been widely mentioned in the news this organization with an Arabic name meaning "The base"

Osama bin Laden explained the origin of the term in a videotaped interview with al Jazeera journalist Tayseer Alouni in October 2001:

The name 'al-Qaeda' was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia's terrorism. We used to call the training camp al-Qaeda. The name stayed.

From Wiki

iih | November 3, 2007, 12:01pm | #

R C Dean:

Partly the taxpayer funding

Come on, compared to where and much else of our taxes go, I am willing to forgive them. I am a fan of many of their programs (especially Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me (especially that they host O'Rourke and one of my most favorite comedians Paula Poundstone. Car Talk is great too.

and partly the lefty elitism that permeates their broadcasts.

But if it were not for NPR, we'll be left with the Limbaughs and the Savages of the airwaves.

iih | November 3, 2007, 12:02pm | #

Close italics, close!

Neu Mejican | November 3, 2007, 12:17pm | #

From the post:

social scientists who can accurately pinpoint laws of mass social behavior

Imagine an economist being inspired by this...imagine.

If you use your understanding of the laws of human behavior to advocate policies that move society closer to a "Free Market," are you predicting and manipulating?

As soon as you use scientific understanding as a basis for your policy, you are engaged in the project described...libertarian or communist or green or democrat.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 12:33pm | #

In the foundation novels, psychohistory is described so that the aggregate behaviour of humanity can be predicted. Just as individual molecules in a gas are unpredictable, so are individual reactions of humans. However, like gas molecules, when you get enough of them together, laws of prediction can be formed, akin to weather forecasting. Fanciful stuff, but in the realm of SF, it's not that outrageous of an premise.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 12:51pm | #

Come on, compared to where and much else of our taxes go, I am willing to forgive them.

I agree that of all that the government spends, CPB/PBS/NPR should be near the botton of the let's kill it list. Nonetheless, at the risk of sounding condesending, Yes, it's only a drop in the bucket. But the bucket is full of drops and spoonfuls. Actually, the bucket is overflowing from all of the drops and spoonfuls. We call that the deficit. PBS/NPR is a luxury that the government should not be providing. I like to go bowling, but I don't want the taxpayers to help pay for it.

IMHO, PBS and NPR are big boys now. All grown up and able to fend for themselves. Kick 'em out of the nest.

iih | November 3, 2007, 12:59pm | #

J sub D:

Com'on, don't you ever listen to Michigan Radio?

IMHO, PBS and NPR are big boys now. All grown up and able to fend for themselves. Kick 'em out of the nest.

I agree. But if it is membership/subscription-based, how are we going to stop those who listen in but don't pay from listening? Can't we think of those 13% of the budget as an allowance on those in the public who listen in but do not pay?

Elemenope | November 3, 2007, 1:00pm | #

Damn it, J sub D, you beat me to my point. And even on the scales we deal with, its not all that fanciful; most foreign relations are predicated upon the mostly correct fact that even though governments are composed of large numbers of individuals, in the aggregate a government's actions vis a vis an event are decently easy to predict.

It is in fact remarkable just how many systems have indeterminately active parts that give basically determinate aggregate behaviors. Why should we believe that, in the odd but optimistic future where human civilization spans an entire galaxy, that the structures at that scale wouldn't be very predictable?

DDS | November 3, 2007, 1:05pm | #

ok, here's a question. I'm a libertarian, but I also really enjoy national parks and the like. If we take into account that ownership comes from transforming the land or by mixing your labor with it, could a park like that really ever be opened privately?

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 1:07pm | #

Com'on, don't you ever listen to Michigan Radio?

All the time. It's on the home and car presets. I've got my principles though. Confession here, when I was in the Navy I bowled at a lot of government supported facilities. The lane fees and the drinks cost consirably less there.

iih | November 3, 2007, 1:13pm | #

J sub D:

You hypocrite ;-)

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 1:13pm | #

I'm a libertarian, but I also really enjoy national parks and the like. If we take into account that ownership comes from transforming the land or by mixing your labor with it, could a park like that really ever be opened privately?

Probably not. If they existed, they'd be playgrounds for the rich. DDS, you (and me) are what is often described as a small l libertarian. It makes us somewhat hypocritical but likely more realistic about the nature of man.

If you always agree with the party line, you're not thinking for yourself.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 1:15pm | #

iih, guilty as charged. See my 1:13pm post.

DDS | November 3, 2007, 1:16pm | #

J sub D. yeah, I figured.

highnumber | November 3, 2007, 1:17pm | #

Foundation inspired Naked Raygun's "The Mule," then?

(In a spiralling humanity
There's a cycle we can see
In a throng's monstrosity odds are
There'll always be a mule
You never can predict the mind of a lunatic
A mind so badly sick
With strange arithmetic)

I never knew. Asimov bored me.

iih | November 3, 2007, 1:22pm | #

ok, here's a question. I'm a libertarian, but I also really enjoy national parks and the like. If we take into account that ownership comes from transforming the land or by mixing your labor with it, could a park like that really ever be opened privately?

Up in Quebec, they are thinking of privatizing some provincial parks. The one I am aware of (and have been to) is Mt. Orford. For more detail, see this, for example.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 1:26pm | #

Foundation inspired Naked Raygun's "The Mule," then?

(In a spiralling humanity
There's a cycle we can see
In a throng's monstrosity odds are
There'll always be a mule
You never can predict the mind of a lunatic
A mind so badly sick
With strange arithmetic)

Sure sounds like it.

I never knew. Asimov bored me.

I learn useful stuff and useless crap here all the time.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 1:33pm | #

Up in Quebec, they are thinking of privatizing some provincial parks. The one I am aware of (and have been to) is Mt. Orford. For more detail, see this, for example.

Interesting on many levels. I've got to agree with "I always said that I would not change my mind on the importance for us not to find ourselves in a situation where we are managing a ski centre and a golf club," said Béchard. "We don't want to do that. And we haven't changed our mind on that."

IIRC, Canada has the highest percentage of land locked up in state and national parks. Maybe they should sell some. Or maybe save it for a rainy day. Land is like money in the bank.

iih | November 3, 2007, 1:33pm | #

I tried to read one of his novels, but was bored to death. But I am not big on SF, except rarely. I remember liking Aldous HUxley's Brave New World. Daniel Quinn's Ismael is certainly not SF, but is one of the best books I ever read. Anyone here read Ishmael?

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 1:34pm | #

Make that "provincial and national parks". It's that damned ugly american syndrome kicking in.

iih | November 3, 2007, 1:43pm | #

J sub D:

tsk tsk Canada does not have state parks ;-)

In Canada, I do not think that it is some sort of fetish for government/public ownership of parks. They simply have so much land to even care. (For those who may not know, Canada has the second largest country in the world.)

iih | November 3, 2007, 1:45pm | #

Too late... I haven't refreshed since starting to write my comment at 1:43.

Yogi | November 3, 2007, 2:36pm | #

Parks could still exist in a purely libertarian world, and I don't think they'd be "playgrounds for the rich".

How? Non-profits. Put the Boy Scouts in charge of Yellowstone. Put the Sierra Club in charge of Alaska's parks. I would donate money to these causes if I knew that without them these places wouldn't exist. (Especially if my taxes weren't as high.) Of course, you couldn't do this overnight, but things like this are already happening. Hunting groups are buying up land to create game reserves. The outdoors sports industry is huge in this country.

Yogi | November 3, 2007, 2:37pm | #

Of course, I've never liked park rangers anyway...

rho | November 3, 2007, 2:41pm | #

Asimov's Foundation was written during a time when everybody thought SCIENCE would give us everything. Flying cars. Moon trips. Commuter submarines. Professional psychology was moving out of injecting mercury directly into the brains of spastics phase and into the talky-talk my-wife-left-me mainstream phase. Not such a crazy idea to imagine psychohistory, then.

I liked the Foundation trilogy, poorly named such since it was actually written as a bunch of short story serials. His post-serial books, F. Edge and F. Earth were monumental works of crap. Asimov never wrote very good long-form fiction, IMO.

However, as somebody noted, books four and five did include the great science fiction staple--the Awkwardly Written Gratuitous Sex Scene. This, I believe, makes them classics.

Boo Boo | November 3, 2007, 2:43pm | #

Of course, I've never liked park rangers anyway...

But I do!

Neu Mejican | November 3, 2007, 2:45pm | #

Speaking of attempts at control

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Gen. Pervez Musharraf declared a state of emergency in Pakistan on Saturday, suspending the constitution, replacing the chief justice before a crucial Supreme Court ruling on his future as president, and cutting communications in the capital.

Off the wire a little while ago.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 2:48pm | #

F. Edge and F. Earth were monumental works of crap. I liked Foundations Edge. Foundation and Earth tried to do way too much, thus doing nothing well.

Neu Mejican | November 3, 2007, 2:49pm | #

In Venezuela, a much different tact is unfolding...

CARACAS (Reuters) - Congress passed President Hugo Chavez's proposal to scrap presidential term limits on Friday in a package of constitutional changes that Venezuelans are likely to approve in a referendum next month.

Pro-Chavez lawmakers, who dominate the legislature, shouted "yes, yes," and chanted the president's political slogan "Fatherland, socialism or death" in approving the measures.

I will note that Chavez is using democratic mechanisms in an attempt to achieve the same ends that Musharaff uses military/police force to achieve.

Matt | November 3, 2007, 2:49pm | #

"But if it is membership/subscription-based, how are we going to stop those who listen in but don't pay from listening? "

I think the viable solution is adopting the business model of, say, Digitally Imported Radio (di.fm, I think currently the biggest for-profit Internet radio, having several thousands of listeners).

If you're a member you've got access to the premium services (higher bitrate quality, the replay channel, etc.), while all the others can still listen at up to 96 kbps for free.

Support also comes from the commercials, which isn't unusual for the radio - the alternative being the underwriting spot, which is already widespread in public broadcasting (used e.g. by the PBS) - in such a case, the audience becomes an "asset", rather than a burden - even if not paying directly, the listeners "provide" the financing for the station (through the income generated by the sponsorship, positively related to the listenership).

Hence, I don't really see a problem.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 2:57pm | #

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Gen. Pervez Musharraf declared a state of emergency in Pakistan on Saturday, suspending the constitution, replacing the chief justice before a crucial Supreme Court ruling on his future as president, and cutting communications in the capital.

Yeah, I saw that. The sad part is, I wasn't a bit surprised. Pakistan goes into and out of martial law, like a 6 year old boy and the back door. I've said it before, some cultures/societies are not prepared for responsible, democratic, self government.

Kenny | November 3, 2007, 2:59pm | #

What keeps prices from going too high? The market. What keeps goods on the shelves to buy? The market. What keeps causing the creation of better products for people to buy? The market

Apropos of nothing in particular, when I read this, the tune of the Simpson's Monorail song immediately got into my head.

ed | November 3, 2007, 2:59pm | #

It's over 25 years since I first (and last) read Foundation but sheesh, it was just a novel, or rather three novels, and sci-fi ones at that. Given this fact Asimov created a serviceable framework for enjoyable, not-too-taxing, light reading. Few sci-fi endeavors get beyond that. I remember liking it despite the fact I was forced to read it. And yes, I remember The Mule freaking me out at the time, so I guess Asimov was successful with that plot device. I admit I haven't thought about it since...I'm considering rereading the original Dune trilogy...but enough about me.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 3:05pm | #

On Venezuela, I posted this 3 days ago.

joe, I'll bet that the proposed cahanes are adopted with minor, window dressing changes. I'll also bet that Chavez will die in office, be executed/imprisoned by a military coup or live out his days in exile. IOW, he will never relinquish power honorably. Please save these predictions so you can throw them in my face when I'm proven wrong by events.

Hoping that you get to do that,
J sub D

1 for 1 so far. Shit.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 3:10pm | #

I will note that Chavez is using democratic mechanisms in an attempt to achieve the same ends that Musharaff uses military/police force to achieve.

My last prediction of the week - Chavez will be in power longer.

Hugh Akston | November 3, 2007, 3:16pm | #

Can't we think of those 13% of the budget as an allowance on those in the public who listen in but do not pay?

But what about those of us in the public who neither pay nor listen? Why should I be required to pay a cent for a forum I find tedious and occasionally offensive?

prolefeed | November 3, 2007, 3:22pm | #

Since NPR was mentioned (I know this is off topic, but where is my weekend thread?), I wonder wy the animosity by libertarians towards NPR? Is it because of the 13% of their revenue that comes from the Federal government? This always bewildered me.

iih -- Libertarians object to the Public in National Public Radio. Oh, and the natural fallout from the financing source, since public broadcasting, whether radio or TV, is almost invariably run by hardcore statists who can spend lots of money on agitprop hardly anyone tunes into. If you're not directly accountable to viewers for your revenue, your programming will reflect that lack of need to be responsive -- but will reflect your need to please those in government who hold the pursestrings.

And if you think taxation is theft, spending the loot on this stuff is especially galling.

iih | November 3, 2007, 3:32pm | #

J sub D:

I've said it before, some cultures/societies are not prepared for responsible, democratic, self government.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

prolefeed | November 3, 2007, 3:34pm | #

There is more at stake here than the credibility of a president or a presidency. What is at stake is the ability of people to trust that those in positions of trust are worthy of trust. To play fast and loose with facts, as the Bush administration has habitually done, is to put truth itself into play and risk rendering government's word worthless. Not this government, but government, period.

If it takes the misdoings of the Bush administration to make even folks like Leonard Pitt distrust all government all the time, then perhaps, in a twisted way, the unintended consequence of their behavior could be viewed as laudable.

The problem, of course, is that Leonard Pitt thinks it's a bad thing for people to distrust government, and also thinks HRC will restore truthfulness and trust in government again.

iih | November 3, 2007, 3:37pm | #

prolefeed:

I am really curious, can you give me an example of a hardcore statist on NPR?

I have been listening to NPR consistently and, last time I checked, it was the conservatives, the WH, the neocons, and the Envagelicals who were made at NPR. They haven't caved in because of the opposition of those in power, have they? Remember the extreme pressure they were put under by the government because they were not conservative enough?

I would be for stripping public funding for NPR/PBS and put PBS on a subscription-based TV channel. But what about NPR? What about those who will listen in but not pay? May be through digital and satellite radio?

iih | November 3, 2007, 3:39pm | #

BTW, I just discovered that Helen Thomas is of Arab descent. Her parents were Lebanese American.

iih | November 3, 2007, 3:44pm | #

prolefeed:

Same question I asked J sub D, you never ever listen to NPR?

prolefeed | November 3, 2007, 3:48pm | #

IMHO, PBS and NPR are big boys now. All grown up and able to fend for themselves. Kick 'em out of the nest.

I agree. But if it is membership/subscription-based, how are we going to stop those who listen in but don't pay from listening? Can't we think of those 13% of the budget as an allowance on those in the public who listen in but do not pay?

To follow this logic further:

But if private radio has people who don't respond to the ads, shouldn't the government kick in money to make up for those free riders?

But if private TV has people who fast forward through the commercials ...

It takes a statist worldview to say that since some will not voluntarily pay, or pay enough, for a public "good", we need to force everyone to pay for it, and imprison those who dissent and refuse to pay.

Goldthwait | November 3, 2007, 3:52pm | #

Rolling Stone considers Paul Krugman a "big thinker"? No wonder that magazine is so incredibly lame. They should stick to music journalism.

Matt | November 3, 2007, 3:52pm | #

ilh: "What about those who will listen in but not pay?" - I have already answered to that - check my comment at 2:49pm.

highnumber | November 3, 2007, 3:52pm | #

I give money to NPR with the hope that I may be replacing some gov't funding with my $$.
Some of their programming is indispensable. Some of it is horribly biased toward liberal pro-state. (I'm looking at you, local public affairs program 848!) Some of it is decent unbiased reporting. Some of it is boring, boring boring. Some of it is good fun. Overall, it's the best radio I get. I refrain from bashing it.

iih | November 3, 2007, 3:55pm | #

But if private radio has people who don't respond to the ads, shouldn't the government kick in money to make up for those free riders?

Your point is well taken. But, not everyone who listens to an ad is obliged to buy.

In any case, I think that with digital radio technology (if I understand it right), this is issue is resolved. Only those who wish to listen will pay for it. No taxes.

iih | November 3, 2007, 3:57pm | #

Matt-- I missed your comment. Thanks. Is there digital radio available in the US (i.e., in my car, can I get it?).

iih | November 3, 2007, 3:58pm | #

highnumber (and others who wish to share):

Just out of curiosity, which NPR programs do you like?

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 4:00pm | #

Overall, it's the best radio I get. I refrain from bashing it.

It's in my listening mix as well. I just don't think that Britanny Spears should have to contribute for it. I used Ms. Spears for an example because she's rich and likely doesn't listen. Plus she's contemptible. Mitch the plumber might be more sympathetic, but y'all don't know Mitch.

prolefeed | November 3, 2007, 4:03pm | #

iih -- I don't ever intentionally listen to NPR. I've heard brief scraps while doing the "scan" function on my car radio, and never heard anything worth listening to. So perhaps I was mistaken in lumping NPR in with PBS, since I haven't spent significant time listening to what they broadcast. Mea culpa.

I do have direct experience with the folks at PBS, though. I ended up talking with the folks at the local station because I was running for office, and they were airing debates between the people contending for office, and I took advantage of the "free" publicity (yeah, yeah, and I drive on public roads, too -- I still want to privatize them). Everyone I talked to who worked at the station was a hardcore statist cheerleader for much bigger government. Had an interesting off-air conversation with the (since deceased) moderator of our debate (who wasn't the least bit moderate) about how I wanted to cut off all government funding for their station. He was a very pleasant guy, if you could keep him off the topic of politics.

prolefeed | November 3, 2007, 4:11pm | #

Your point is well taken. But, not everyone who listens to an ad is obliged to buy.

iih -- Of course they aren't obligated. Nor should anyone be obligated to pay through taxes for NPR or PBS. The people who like what NPR or PBS puts out, and are altruistic enough to voluntarily support it, can chip in enough to keep it afloat without government coercion.

I don't subscribe to the paper copy of Reason (yet), and haven't bought anything from the ads they run here. Call me a curmudgeon. Is this a problem? Should the government kick in funding to make up for free riders like me? Or -- gasp -- has modern economics solved the problem of privately funding public goods? (Hint -- yes.)

iih | November 3, 2007, 4:12pm | #

prolefeed:

I rarely watch PBS. But NPR in the morning and the evening commute is essential. The alternative is the big fascist "best and brightest" (read "awful and dumbest") 96.9 (google Michael Graham and Jay Severin).

I recommend listening to them in the morning or just "All things Considered". In weekends, "Wait Wait Don't Tell" is the funniest program ever. I think you will change your mind about them, though that doesn't mean you have to change your opinion regarding the tax thing. I am with you on that.

As highnumber mentioned, some of their stuff is boring, some is a lot of fun, and some is really very very information.

I personally like Diane Rheme, On Point, and Talk of The Nation. Also, Car Talk and Wait Wait Don't Tell on weekends.

prolefeed: Give it a shot... I won't tell anyone that you did.

I wonder, would Walter Block (hardcore Libertarian Misesian economist) listen to NPR. Ron Paul does not shy away from being interviewed by NPR/PBS.

iih | November 3, 2007, 4:14pm | #

prolefeed @ 4:11pm: As I mention above, we are in agreement on the taxes thing.

iih | November 3, 2007, 4:15pm | #

Fix: Wait Wait Don't Tell ME

prolefeed: You can also stream them (for free!) on your computer. Give it a shot.

prolefeed | November 3, 2007, 4:33pm | #

Ron Paul does not shy away from being interviewed by NPR/PBS.

Politics results in some twisted outcomes. After the election (which I lost, getting 46% of the vote), the local PBS station aired a discussion between the aforementioned immoderate moderator and two people who had done much better than anyone had expected: me (the ostensible Republican who is a libertarian); and a likeable guy who'd run as an ostensible Democrat (though he was more of a socialist) in a thoroughly Republican district and got about 45% too.

Turns out that I had taken public financing, despite wanting to entirely eliminate it, while the Democrat had refused public financing, and enthusiastically supported the concept. When he accused me of being a hypocrite for taking the public money, I pointed out that it had been in my personal interest to take the money, and so as a rational economic actor had done so, but since I felt it was not in the interest of the general public to finance these elections, I would have vigorously tried to eliminate public funding once in office. Whereas the Democrat turned down the funding because it would have limited the amount he could spend in his campaign, but because he thought government was a positive force for good, supported this and practically anything else financed by taxes.

So, am I required to turn in my Libertarian Secret Decoder Ring for using PBS and for taking public funds in an attempt to get in office and try to eliminate both of these government-funded programs?

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 4:40pm | #

So, am I required to turn in my Libertarian Secret Decoder Ring for using PBS and for taking public funds in an attempt to get in office and try to eliminate both of these government-funded programs?

No. But you will be watched verry closely! ;-|

iih | November 3, 2007, 4:46pm | #

So, am I required to turn in my Libertarian Secret Decoder Ring for using PBS and for taking public funds in an attempt to get in office and try to eliminate both of these government-funded programs?

Certainly not. And I think that what you did was perfectly legitimate. As did Paul.

Matt | November 3, 2007, 4:57pm | #

ilh: sure, and yes, you can get it in a car :-)

Here's some more information:

"Digital Audio Radio Service or DARS refers to any type of digital radio service. In the United States it is the official FCC term for digital radio services.

The most popular type of DARS in the U.S. is SDARS: Satellite Digital Audio Radio Service, operated by XM Radio and Sirius. XM and Sirius both operate in the 2.3-GHz S band, from 2320 to 2345 MHz.

Outside the United States, WorldSpace operates a DARS network with a footprint covering Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Africa using the L-band."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDARS

"XM Satellite Radio Holdings (XM) is one of two satellite radio (SDARS) services in the United States and Canada, along with Sirius Satellite Radio.
These two former rivals have announced their intention to merge, which would create a single satellite radio entity in the United States with nearly 14 million subscribers."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM_Satellite_Radio

One ways to listen to the Digitally Imported Radio in a car (other than just a laptop w/ wireless connection):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_radio_device

Other interesting alternatives:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_television_radio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Multimedia_Broadcasting

iih | November 3, 2007, 5:01pm | #

Matt:

Oh, well, I do have satellite radio (Sirius). I thought that digital radio is some sort of separate radio technology. NPR on Sirius is bad, btw, because I do not think they expect too many Sirius subscribers would be interested in NPR.

Matt | November 3, 2007, 5:09pm | #

iih: "digital radio" is a broad term which covers many technologies - DARS (one of examples of which is SDARS - specific applications of which are XM and Sirius), DTR (digital television radio), DMB (digital multimedia broadcasting), and, last but not least, Internet Radio (one of the examples of technologies used here is Icecast or Shoutcast - one of the specific applications of the latest being the Digitally Imported Radio). There's really a whole lot of alternatives to the older technologies :-)

Fluffy | November 3, 2007, 5:14pm | #

I think that humanities spending of all kinds is some of the most unjust spending out there, despite the fact that a mere pittance is spent on them, and despite the fact that I listen to NPR and VPR and patronize museums that get public grants, etc.

NPR takes my tax money and uses it to teach people that my political views are despicable. I'd almost rather have a state church supported by tax dollars. That would be offensive, but would have little practical impact on my life, compared to an entity that influences political and cultural debate.

And speaking of culture, I also find it offensive that there's this great, big Tammany Hall of culture out there, floating on state money and grant money and allowing a huge gaggle of crunchy deadbeats to pat each other on the back and assert each other's mutual cultural relevance. I would be delighted to see that crash to the ground and have all of those sensitive types working the drive-thru at McDonald's instead.

iih | November 3, 2007, 5:15pm | #

Matt:

Thanks. That is very informative. So, I guess there are alternatives for NPR, and technology seems not to be the problem. Changing peoples' views on the issue is certainly more difficult to do.

crimethink | November 3, 2007, 5:37pm | #

In the long-term, a democratic Pakistan can only be a good thing. In the short term, a NUCLEAR democratic Pakistan is way bad for us.

SugarFree | November 3, 2007, 5:42pm | #

Re: NPR

I hate it because the light jazz intros and segues. I hate light jazz. That and the knowingly ironic tone that is really condescension.

Cesar | November 3, 2007, 5:43pm | #

Pakistan and Bangladesh should have never been separated form India in the first place. Another British fuck-up (along with Northern Ireland, Iraq, Palestine, half of Africa, etc, etc, etc).

crimethink | November 3, 2007, 5:54pm | #

Re: How could NPR and PBS exist without govt funding...

Maybe they should outsource to Myanmar their shitty tote bag production -- you know, the ones that VIEWERS LIKE YOU get when they pledge $50?

iih | November 3, 2007, 5:58pm | #

SugarFree:

I think, depending on where you are, and how popular NPR is there determine the programing. If you are in a city or in a "liberal" college town, chances are less music will be played. In the midwest (outside urban areas), chances are it is going to play a lot of music, instead of more expensive, high demand programing.

iih | November 3, 2007, 6:00pm | #

Pakistan and Bangladesh should have never been separated form India in the first place. Another British fuck-up (along with Northern Ireland, Iraq, Palestine, half of Africa, etc, etc, etc).

.. and oppressed the Americans more than 200 years ago? Funny how things work out, UK and US are very good friends now.

crimethink | November 3, 2007, 6:03pm | #

iih,

The US military had contingency plans in place for a global war against the UK until 1930. There was nothing inevitable about our "special relationship".

Cesar | November 3, 2007, 6:06pm | #

We didn't have any special love for the UK until WWII as crimethink pointed out, and theres no history of bloodthirsty religious hatred between the US and UK. We also don't share a border directly, which helps.

iih | November 3, 2007, 6:08pm | #

Even funnier, France, America's greatest ally during the revolution, is now almost always discussed with a lot of negativity, especially on the Right.

crimethink | November 3, 2007, 6:09pm | #

Actually, now that I think about it, the US and Canada would be a more apt comparison. Though, again, we don't have the religious animosity going, and North America has far fewer people and far more resources than the Subcontinent does.

iih | November 3, 2007, 6:16pm | #

Question to those of you who are American history savvy: Can we say that today's neocons are the descendants and the evolved version of Hamilton, who believed that freedom can only be given by government as opposed as a natural right? I don't know much about Hamilton and would like to learn. I guess, and wiki it too, but this is more fun.

Cesar | November 3, 2007, 6:17pm | #

Actually, now that I think about it, the US and Canada would be a more apt comparison. Though, again, we don't have the religious animosity going, and North America has far fewer people and far more resources than the Subcontinent does.

And the fact that we choose our own borders rather than having them drawn for us arbitrarily by an outside power.

crimethink | November 3, 2007, 6:20pm | #

Maybe Rudy Giuliani can get on the ten dollar bill someday. Though it would be more appropriate for him to be on the three dollar bill... ;-)

Speaking of which...

DDS | November 3, 2007, 6:21pm | #

"How? Non-profits. Put the Boy Scouts in charge of Yellowstone. Put the Sierra Club in charge of Alaska's parks. I would donate money to these causes if I knew that without them these places wouldn't exist. (Especially if my taxes weren't as high.) Of course, you couldn't do this overnight, but things like this are already happening. Hunting groups are buying up land to create game reserves. The outdoors sports industry is huge in this country."

Yogi, I agree with you about private donations. what my concern is is with rightful ownership of the land in the first place. If I plant a bunch of corn and take time to help it grow, then it would be mine due to the "mixing of my labor". but you can't build a fence around 1000 acres of land and say everything inside it is yours.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 6:22pm | #

Pakistan and Bangladesh should have never been separated form India in the first place. Another British fuck-up

I'm not so sure of that. Even 20/20 hindsight doesn't answer the what if? questions. Now that they've given up that socialist crap, India seems to be making serious progress. Would they be better off still yoked to Pakistan? Your guess is as good as mine.

I will say this. In the late '70s I spent a week anchored off Karachi. An alleged "liberty port", I had 5 of 6 days off. I took the boat to shore the first day in. Spent two hours in beautiful downtown Karachi, took the boat back to the ship, scrubbed myself down vigorously, and didn't go ashore again. I've visited a lot of places in my life, some good, some bad. Karachi, Pakistan was the WORST place I've ever seen. There is competition for the second worst, but Karachi, Pakistan stands alone. IMHO, India is better off without Pakistan.

Cesar | November 3, 2007, 6:23pm | #

I'm not so sure of that. Even 20/20 hindsight doesn't answer the what if? questions. Now that they've given up that socialist crap, India seems to be making serious progress. Would they be better off still yoked to Pakistan? Your guess is as good as mine.

I think India would have had a moderating influence on Pakistan. And there wouldn't be a constant threat of nuclear war. Muslims in India--whether as residents, or immigrants--continually fare better in just about every category than Muslims in Pakistan or Bangladesh.

Cesar | November 3, 2007, 6:26pm | #

iih--

Its hard to compare the politics of the 1790s today. Really, both major parties are partly Hamiltonian and partly Jeffersonian. The Republicans are Hamiltonian in that they believe in rule by an elite, and the Democrats are in that they believe in a large government.

They are also both, in a way (at least in rhetoric) Jeffersonian. They Republicans say they want small government, the Democrats say they are for the little guy.

iih | November 3, 2007, 6:26pm | #

I thought "Pakistan" left. They wanted to create a "Muslim homeland" for India's Muslims. Some failed (Gujarat) and are still suffering in India. I personally believe that those Pakistani intellectuals who advocated independence were wrong. Things would have probably been better for all if they stayed with India.

crimethink | November 3, 2007, 6:27pm | #

Isn't it strange that Muslims tend to do much better in countries that don't have Muslim majorities?

Paul | November 3, 2007, 6:29pm | #

Can't we think of those 13% of the budget as an allowance on those in the public who listen in but do not pay?

You have got to be fucking kidding me. I listen to all manner of commercial radio stations and don't pay a dime, so now you're telling me that I'm getting a "free ride"? Prying my tax dollars from me at gunpoint because I listen to NPR but don't pay is precisely why I don't give them one red cent.

"Oh, but NPR doesn't take advertising dollars."

Well, sounds like they need to work on their revenue model.

Cesar | November 3, 2007, 6:30pm | #

Isn't it strange that Muslims tend to do much better in countries that don't have Muslim majorities?

Its not always true, I don't think they do too well in Europe.

crimethink | November 3, 2007, 6:30pm | #

Cesar,

Republican politicians are Aaron Burr, and Democrat politicians are Benedict Arnold. The whole lot is full of traitors, thru and thru.*

* Ron Paul doesn't count because he's a statesman, not a politician. ;-)

iih | November 3, 2007, 6:35pm | #

I find it very weird that a founding father would actually believe that liberty comes, not from God/birth right, but is given by government (implying that government can take it back freely). May be I made the link between today's neocons and Hamilton because Hamilton was discussed in the context of Civil Liberties in Wartime in an Andrew Napolitano talk (I actually liked that guy a lot after hearing his talk -- see link).

Cesar | November 3, 2007, 6:35pm | #

Republican politicians are Aaron Burr, and Democrat politicians are Benedict Arnold. The whole lot is full of traitors, thru and thru.*

Speaking of Aaron Burr and the politics of the 1790s, its too bad Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney couldn't have a duel today. That'd be fun to watch, and any outcome would be good.

iih | November 3, 2007, 6:40pm | #

Isn't it strange that Muslims tend to do much better in countries that don't have Muslim majorities?

Assuming that that is a serious question, they have done well in the US and Canada, which goes to prove your point. In other countries they do both good and bad (e.g., England, Germany, Scandinavia -- we only hear about the trouble makers there). They have had a lot of hard time in India, though they are a minority. In some other countries where they have been a majority, they did well (e.g., Malaysia).

A Pessimist | November 3, 2007, 6:41pm | #

Speaking of Aaron Burr and the politics of the 1790s, its too bad Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney couldn't have a duel today. That'd be fun to watch, and any outcome would be good.

They could both miss. :-(

iih | November 3, 2007, 6:41pm | #

"Oh, but NPR doesn't take advertising dollars."

Well, sounds like they need to work on their revenue model.

Paul, see the ensuing discussion above. But they do actually get ad money, as mentioned above.

iih | November 3, 2007, 6:55pm | #

They could both miss. :-(

And their incompetence at everything may very well give us that result.

Mr. Nice Guy | November 3, 2007, 7:04pm | #

I think NPR is a classic example of a government program that works. I, and most people, get far more out of NPR than they pay into. The same can be said, in my opinion, about libraries.

I think an informed citizenry is as important as having police as far as protecting our rights and the Republic. NPR and libraries have demonstrated the virtues of an occupational culture of professionalism as they have strived to be independent of their funding, which is exactly what is needed if we want to get any press and info critical of economic power centers...

Don't get me wrong, many governmnet programs don't "work" in that they are wasteful and downright contrary to our rights and well being. But even Mises thought many functions simply could not be privatized, and I submit that amazingly poor intellectual quality of private radio demonstrates that point...

Kenny | November 3, 2007, 7:05pm | #

prolefeed-
Wow, small world. I used to live in your district on Hui Iwa St.(but couldn't vote because I still claimed VA residency). You're right about the level of spending; I can remember Clayton Hee's name of the top of my head even now because of the number of commercials, but couldn't remember yours until a google search connected you with him.

Mr. Nice Guy | November 3, 2007, 7:05pm | #

Navy just broke their decades long losing streak to Notre Dame. As joe would say, ND's tears are SO YUMMY!

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 7:06pm | #

Paul, see the ensuing discussion above. But they do actually get ad money, as mentioned above.

That really ticks me off. Not that they have advertyising, but it's advertising like this.. [sedate background music, quiet soothing voice]All Things Considered was funded, in part, by Archer Daniels Midland An essential link in the agricultural economy, ADM works with farmers, food companies and others to feed the world.

Now how can that possibly compare with the surrealism offered by {loud banjo music, screaming, possiblty unhinged announcer] Come see Cal Worthington and his dog Spot, selling used cars for E-Z CREDIT! NO MONEY DOWN! NO ONE IS TURNED AWAY! We WILL put YOU in the car of you choice. GAURANTEED!!!

I tell ya, I just ain't the same.

Mr. Nice Guy | November 3, 2007, 7:09pm | #

Take away philanthropy and I think you would get virtually no Magazines like Reason. I don't know for sure, but I imagine Reason could not do it on subscriptions alone. Remember about a year or two ago Reason had articles about whether corporate philanthropy was justified or not (the guy from Whole Foods was the foil). I submit that Libertarianism perhaps could not exist in a pure market (ironic, eh?). Anything, market or no, that keeps the marketplace of ideas (no pun intended) going is a-OK in my book...

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 7:10pm | #

Navy just broke their decades long losing streak to Notre Dame. As joe would say, ND's tears are SO YUMMY!

I just orgasmed. Oh wait, here comes another...

iih | November 3, 2007, 7:12pm | #

MNG:

Re NPR: Ditto. Very well said. I am not a member since I pretend that all my tax money goes to NPR and the war (this is how I make myself feel better about the income tax).

Re ND: Then you're either a Michigan, MSU, or Ohio State fan if you are so happy regarding ND.

J sub D: That's funny. I like the NPR ad better. Do you work for NPR? How come you know the ad so well?

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 7:13pm | #

Take away philanthropy and I think you would get virtually no Magazines like Reason.

Bingo. Stop right there. Write a check to NPR. Just do it.

iih | November 3, 2007, 7:17pm | #

Correction: I am not a member since I pretend that all my tax money goes to NPR and NOT the war

Mr. Nice Guy | November 3, 2007, 7:17pm | #

I do, every year J sub D. They deserve it. I imagine they don't need much gov. money, but having a 10-20% foundation makes it easier to take on controversial work and anger some big donor, and to make sure that places like Fargo get service...

iih-You don't have to be a fan of one of those teams to hate on Notre Dame. What other team gets an entire network contract TO THEMSELVES? And their preferential treatment at Bowl selection time is an affront to merit (and a look into the faults of the market by the way, ND get's picked higher than they should because of their fan following, not how good they are). Despite the fact that they have sucked for years and years. I hope NBC is pulling in lots of losses for that...

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 7:17pm | #

I told you I was an NPR listener. But this is one of my radio presets as well.

iih | November 3, 2007, 7:20pm | #

ND is now what 0-7 or 8?

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 7:21pm | #

MNG So do I. I stopped when WDET dropped Car Talk a few years ago. When they brought it back, I started again. I wasn't alone in that. Like I said earlier, they're all grown up. Kick out of the nest.

iih | November 3, 2007, 7:22pm | #

J sub D: Never heard of wrif. I remember 95.5 being popular in AA.

crimethink | November 3, 2007, 7:22pm | #

Mr Nice Guy,

Philanthropy is entirely compatible with a free market (I don't know what a "pure" market is), since it doesn't involve forcibly extracting money from the person giving it. It sounds like the libertarian in your head is getting lippy again.

iih | November 3, 2007, 7:23pm | #

J sub D: WDET, but not Michigan Radio? WDET plays a lot of music during the day, since they don't seem to do that well financially.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 7:24pm | #

iih, ND is now 1-8.
How sweet it is!

Kolohe | November 3, 2007, 7:27pm | #

Ron Paul doesn't count because he's a statesman
Congressman Paul died? I would have thought that would've made the news. Damned media bias.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 7:27pm | #

Reception realities. AA is 60 miles away. FM reception is unreliable to nonexistent at that range. If you'd like a lecture on RF propogation in different environments, I'm your man. Since it bores the crap out of everyone, just trust me on this.

iih | November 3, 2007, 7:31pm | #

J sub D: I remember getting the signal in Detroit, or may be not. Certainly at the airport.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 7:35pm | #

iih, The airport's 25 west of downtown. Almost halfwat to Ann Arbor. It is also not surrounded by 10-50 story steel framed buildings. Trust me.

iih | November 3, 2007, 7:41pm | #

J sub D: OK, OK, already. Got it! Sheesh, I guess my MI years are already becoming too fuzzy.

J sub D | November 3, 2007, 8:01pm | #

I told ya it bores the crap out of everybody! ;-)

iih | November 3, 2007, 8:05pm | #

Bore me it did :-)

David E. Gallaher | November 3, 2007, 8:43pm | #

By this time in a thread, when only the Peanut Gallery is posting, the peanut shells are hip-deep.
Sloshing thru here....
But, has anybody ever heard of the ecommunist/economist by the name of Rendigs Fels? (Reni to his friends.)
Curious.

Brian Courts | November 3, 2007, 8:43pm | #

Reception realities. AA is 60 miles away.

Actually, Ann Arbor is only 36 miles from the center of downtown Detroit, 35.5 miles from WDET's transmitter (and 28 miles from WRIF's transmitter). Shouldn't be too hard to pick up those stations in AA.

fletch | November 3, 2007, 8:47pm | #

JW-

On that note, I just finished reading Peter Hamliton's 2,000 page, 2-book Pandora's Star series. A bit pedantic at times, but a very complelling story line and good cast of characters.

Shh!!!

...or you'll have the Marxist loonies here saying that MorningLightMountain represents "capitalism" at it's 'purest'. :o)

iih | November 3, 2007, 8:52pm | #

Actually, Ann Arbor is only 36 miles from the center of downtown Detroit, 35.5 miles from WDET's transmitter (and 28 miles from WRIF's transmitter). Shouldn't be too hard to pick up those stations in AA.

Thank you Brian. J sub D really made me think that I am loosing my memory. Grrrr, J sub D!!!

JW | November 3, 2007, 8:57pm | #

Shh!!!

...or you'll have the Marxist loonies here saying that MorningLightMountain represents "capitalism" at it's 'purest'. :o)

Oh, if we could only put up a quantum barrier around the Capitol and the White House. If only....

Where's Ozzie when you need him?

Doctor Duck |