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Is Nobelist James Watson, Co-Discoverer of the Structure of DNA, a Racist?

According to the Independent, James Watson said:

The 79-year-old geneticist reopened the explosive debate about race and science in a newspaper interview in which he said Western policies towards African countries were wrongly based on an assumption that black people were as clever as their white counterparts when "testing" suggested the contrary. He claimed genes responsible for creating differences in human intelligence could be found within a decade.

The newly formed Equality and Human Rights Commission, successor to the Commission for Racial Equality, saidit was studying Dr Watson's remarks "in full". Dr Watson told The Sunday Times that he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours – whereas all the testing says not really". He said there was a natural desire that all human beings should be equal but "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true".

His views are also reflected in a book published next week, in which he writes: "There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."

For what it's worth, immigrants from Africa seem to get really smart once they move here. In any case, as I have argued before:

No matter who turns out to be right in the nature versus nurture debate over why there is a gap in black/white IQ scores, the idea that we must strive to treat every person as an individual, not as a representative of some group or other, seems right to me.

Whole Independent article here.

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Comments to "Is Nobelist James Watson, Co-Discoverer of the Structure of DNA, a Racist?":

Matt | October 16, 2007, 10:42pm | #

if anything, genetic differences in intelligence, thus outcomes, may be construed as evidence for racial based social policies.

Aresen | October 16, 2007, 10:46pm | #

I don't beleive there is any inherently "superior" or more intelligent racial or national group.

Except, of course, Canadians. ;P

Franklin Harris | October 16, 2007, 10:50pm | #

Of course, what is far, far more disturbing than the prospect of one particular man being a racist is an Orwellian bureaucracy looking into that man's alleged thought crime.

Some guy who writes for VADare.com | October 16, 2007, 10:54pm | #

Everyone knows racists are smarter

tarran | October 16, 2007, 10:55pm | #

I should point out that humans actually have very little genetic diversity. You will find a greater variety of DNA in a single chimpanzee troupe than in the entire human race.

Additionally there is greater diversity of genes within racial groups than between the mean genetic profile of each group. In other words, very little of the variation in genes between two individuals can be predicted by looking at their racial or ethnic background.

Of course, it could be possible that genes that govern intelligence do correlate with race. So what? So long as people's rights are respected, it really won't matter.

I think the good Dr. is completely mistaken about why aid to Africa does not work. Take a look at Scotland. Now, when someone examines all the great English discoveries and inventions in the past three centuries, more often than not, there's a Scot who was the driving force behind it. Thus, we can state with confidence that there are many intelligent Scots. Yet, Scotland has been receiving massive amounts of aid from the British government and is perenially economically depressed.

The problem is quite simply that the foreign aid given to Africans is quite harmful. Unesco encourages and assists dictators in setting up public schooling to control their populations. Arms embargoes leave locals defenseless against predation by hostile tribes who control local governments. Food aid bankrupts local farmers. The bulk of the money for major construction projects are spent on foreign crews, and as often as not when the project is turned over to poorly trained locals, the project deteriorates. Protectionist policies in the West deprive Africans of export markets, while agreeing to support western patents deprives Africans the opportunity to develop manufacturing systems locally.

Africa's problems, of course, are not caused by Western aid. I think most of the problems are, frankly cultural, and are rooted in the endemic barbaric tribalism coupled with institutions brought in by colonial Europeans that were designed to facilitate exploiting the people and natural resources of the continent.

While it is possible that culture can cause a decrease in effective intelligence (just imagine the effect on IQ scores of a society where reading was considered effeminate and men who read alot couldn't find mates). But the potential intelligence encoded in the genes is unaffected.

VADare.com chorus girls | October 16, 2007, 10:55pm | #

(cue harry belefonte soundtrack)

"thats right, the racists are...smarter, thats right the racists are...smart-er"...

Chad | October 16, 2007, 10:57pm | #

Ron, if immigrants were a random selection from a population, you would have a point. They are clearly not. Immigrants are self-selected and their children should not be expected to be average for the population their parents came from.

It is a matter of when, not if, that we start pin-pointing individual genes that are related to intelligence, and they will not be equally distributed between all populations, ethnic groups or nationalities. No gene is. It is better to work this problem from the angle that these differences don't matter at the individual level than to pretend they don't exist despite the ever-increasing data saying otherwise.

Angus Macgregor | October 16, 2007, 10:58pm | #

Now, when someone examines all the great English discoveries and inventions in the past three centuries, more often than not, there's a Scot who was the driving force behind it.

Aye!! If it's nooo Scottish, it's Crap!!

Douglas Gray | October 16, 2007, 10:58pm | #

Africans who make it to the States do extremely well, as do immigrants from India, as being smart correlates highly with the capacity to leave those countries and successfully re-settle in the U.S. They don't get smart when they arrive here, they get here in the first place because they are smart.

It is very disturbing that Watson is immediately pounced on as a racist, although his statement that blacks are dumber because of performance on certain tests sounds unscientific.

Godfrey | October 16, 2007, 11:00pm | #

Sheeyot. I don't unnerstand' why this muthafuckin' Watson bitch gots to be dissin' brothas n' shit. Nigga a raciss.

Werd.

Troll | October 16, 2007, 11:03pm | #

Old people are statistically more likely to be senile. It must be the dementia talking.

Jimmy the Greek | October 16, 2007, 11:04pm | #

But sometimes they can jump higher, you know?

loli | October 16, 2007, 11:07pm | #

Nitpick: Watson didn't discover DNA-- he discovered the structure of DNA, which is what got him his Nobel.

I guess that's not really relevant to Watson's recent statements, but it's a common misconception that I'd like to see sorted out.

Ron Bailey | October 16, 2007, 11:10pm | #

loli: You are right and I when I wrote the first headline that's what I said, so I will now correct it. Thanks.

rm2muv | October 16, 2007, 11:14pm | #

1. Tests are inherently biased tools.

2. One can observe greater variation of test results within a single family than that shown between racial groups.

3. All people can contibute to the successful functioning of an equitable society.

4. Even dumbass racists can make me laugh.

Pig Mannix | October 16, 2007, 11:17pm | #

Not being any sort of a scientist, I'm not in a position to evaluate the value of Watson's remarks one way or another.

What I am in a position to evaluate is subject matter: is anyone else getting sick and tired of seeing about a half-dozen posts on racism on this here libertarian blog to every one on a topic that might actually be germane to libertarianism?

Berry | October 16, 2007, 11:31pm | #

I haven't posted here in a while. I promise this isn't a troll.

"While it is possible that culture can cause a decrease in effective intelligence (just imagine the effect on IQ scores of a society where reading was considered effeminate and men who read alot couldn't find mates)."

Isn't that exactly what slavery was here for 400 years? I understand why this is such a taboo subject, but the anonymity of the internet should allow us to be less PC. I grew up in a majority black town in the deep South and could give you hundreds of reasons why I thought blacks were significantly less intelligent than whites. After living all over, I've come to the conclusion that a lot of those indifferences probably had a lot to do with geography (basically, the immigrant arguement).

I would be much more reluctant to talk about this if unwed pregnacies were treated with some disdain from the PC crowd, but the bottom line is that the stupidest are overbreeding with no Darwinian intervention. I think this is happening with other races as well, but blacks are overrepresented. I don't think this makes me a racist, but a well-traveled observant person. Maybe I'm wrong. Thoughts?

Warren | October 16, 2007, 11:35pm | #

I saw Watson speak about ten years ago (probably the 30th anniversary of The Double Helix). It was clear then that he had already lost some clarity of mind. It's sad that his mental dilapidation has become a public spectacle.

Shirt | October 16, 2007, 11:38pm | #

I'll ignore the whole "western policies toward African countries" thing 'cause I'm nowhere near qualified to opine. But I'll take a stab at the "this race is more intelligent than that race" claim.

First of all, lots of studies back in the day (yeah, I'll look for them on line later) have shown that intelligence is not an accurate predictor of "success" in life. Other factors such as social skills, cultural indoctrination, and -- most important of all -- a sense of drive and determination, are more accurate predictors. In fact, intelligence is seen by most people as some mysterious eccentricity to be avoided and even ridiculed. Intelligence simply isn't a valued asset in the majority culture. Hell, ain't it them inelligent types who are always stirrin' up trouble with that evolutionary nonsense and doubtin' the Almighty? Son, you don't wanna be one o' them there nerds, now do ya? Now step forward with your left foot and rotate your hips when you throw that football. Yeah, like that. Where was I ... Oh yeah, intelligence is for wussies and I for one welcome our fellow non-intelligent African-Americans into our society.

TLB | October 16, 2007, 11:53pm | #

I've already alerted Reason favorite SPLC about his remarks; their auto-responder says they'll look into calling him a hate group. I've also alerted Media Matters; while they didn't see any relationship to the Hillary campaign, they did promise to look into it.

crimethink | October 17, 2007, 12:10am | #

Berry,

Worry not, the Darwinian intervention will come eventually. Once the idiocrats start watering their crops with Brawndo (with electrolytes) their fate is sealed.

Thelatimerian | October 17, 2007, 12:18am | #

I do believe that the assumption that african immigrants "get really smart" when they come here seems to miss the obvious reality... that, for the most part, only those who are well above average make it here in the first place. That is to say nothing of the nature/nurture debate though...

thoreau | October 17, 2007, 12:26am | #

is anyone else getting sick and tired of seeing about a half-dozen posts on racism on this here libertarian blog to every one on a topic that might actually be germane to libertarianism?

Hmm, sounds like a complaint that Hit and Run is no longer a libertarian blog.

Judges, can we get a ruling on that interpretation?

If I'm right, then I am duty-bound to invoke the rules and say:

Drink!!!!!

edna | October 17, 2007, 12:30am | #

this is interesting; as i worked my way through "molecular biology of the gene," i started getting hot for david duke.

edna | October 17, 2007, 12:33am | #

that, for the most part, only those who are well above average make it here in the first place.

i don't know what the arguments against selection are, but prof. sowell noted that black immigrants perform better than slave descendents on iq tests and on other measures of success (income, education). that's certainly consistent with the selection hypothesis- descendants of slaves would represent more of a random selection than immigrants.

Mike Laursen | October 17, 2007, 12:47am | #

Within a decade, if we really tried, we could find the gene that turned Watson into a doddering curmudgeon.

Sparky | October 17, 2007, 12:53am | #

"...prof. sowell noted that black immigrants perform better than slave descendents on iq tests and on other measures of success (income, education). that's certainly consistent with the selection hypothesis..."

It's not consistent with any conclusion beyond the one that people who believe this crap are really ignorant. The key concept that everyone who buys these arguments is missing is "heritability." The degree to which offspring resemble their parents is often hugely context (environment) dependent, and this has been shown to be the case over and over with common measures of intelligence. The fact that black people on overall average may test lower than whites on some intelligence test says nothing (to say nothing of whether the test itself is inherently worth a damn). The relevant question is how would black people in the same environment as white people perform?

This is why a depressing number of studies purportedly describing some complex (or in some cases even simple) genetic discovery in humans are crap. There's really no way we can practically (and certainly not ethically) control for environmental variation. Even the best socio-economic/age/race/gender/shoe-size/etc controlled study in humans would be pretty sketchy in most other organisms.

thoreau | October 17, 2007, 12:53am | #

edna-

Of course, descendants of slaves are more likely to have white ancestors (and southern white ancestors especially) than recent black immigrants. If somebody wanted to argue that recent black immigrants have genetic advantages over descendants of black slaves, I wonder what that would imply for southern whites...

FWIW, when the difference in means is less than the standard deviation, I think it's hard to take seriously anybody who claims that there's a significant difference.

thoreau | October 17, 2007, 12:55am | #

And yes, I'm aware that there are ways to distinguish two distributions with slightly different means and large standard deviations. But it ain't easy, and you're highly vulnerable to errors that you didn't account for. (OK, you're always vulnerable to errors that you didn't account for, but that's especially true when the effect you're looking for is less than a standard deviation.)

Aresen | October 17, 2007, 1:11am | #

Since most of the variability of the human genome is in Africa, it is obvious that any variation from the human statistical norm is most likely to be found in Africa.

Therefore, if there is a definable group of humans who have above average "intelligence", that group is probably in Africa.

Morgan | October 17, 2007, 1:50am | #

Racist or not makes no difference, fortunately, because he's either wrong or right. If I had to guess I'd say he's wrong, but the nice thing about science is I can just wait and find out and in the meantime act like I don't know all the answers, because I don't.

Abadoned reason | October 17, 2007, 1:52am | #

That's right guys -- think with your hearts, not with your heads.

No other subject seems to elicit an abandonment of critical thinking like intelligence research, especially the issue of group differences. At least when it comes to evolution or free trade, half of the political spectrum can be counted on to defend the truth.

These are empirical questions, which have been examined by researchers for decades. I can understand that the amount of misinformation spread about this topic could cause the average person to believe that Watson's comments are baseless. But misinformation cannot account for the craftier attempts at obfuscation found in this thread and in the media.

I see no reason to believe that a happy untruth about this topic will make for better social policy than an unwelcome truth. If different human populations do have different distributions of cognitive ability and if those differences have social and economic consequences -- both conclusions are are beyond dispute -- then what good does it do to ignore the situation?

Around the time of the publication of The Bell Curve (c.a. 1994), two useful reviews were written about the state of the science of individual and group differences in intelligence. While over a decade old now, they are nonetheless still useful is establishing a sense of what was already known at that time -- a far different picture than what is commonly recognized. Here are links to the free full texts.

* "Mainstream Science on Intelligence" -- an op-ed signed by 52 professors which was published first in the WSJ and then the journal Intelligence -- http://www.psychpage.com/learning/library/intell/mainstream.html

* "Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns" -- the report of a task force assembled by the American Psychological Association published in the journal American Psychologist -- http://www.michna.com/intelligence.htm

Vanessa | October 17, 2007, 2:02am | #

FWIW, when the difference in means is less than the standard deviation, I think it's hard to take seriously anybody who claims that there's a significant difference.

Exactly. Seems to me that a non-significant difference could easily be accounted for by cultural factors and biased tests. Are we supposed to believe that IQ tests are infallible measures of something as complex as intelligence? They're designed by humans, not omniscient beings.

"There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically.

I think this is true, but again, the differences in IQ across racial groups might not be meaningful. I mean, am I wrong or aren't non statistically significant differences supposed to be interpreted as no differences at all?

Vanessa | October 17, 2007, 2:05am | #

And yes, I'm aware that there are ways to distinguish two distributions with slightly different means and large standard deviations.

Well this I was not aware of...do not claim to be a statistician...

Rick Barton | October 17, 2007, 2:16am | #

From the Independent article:

(Watson) said Western policies towards African countries were wrongly based on an assumption that black people were as clever as their white counterparts when "testing" suggested the contrary.

So exactly which policies towards African countries would Watson change and how would he change them? Watson's conclusions about racial inferiority are so debatable that they comprise yet another good reason why governments should not be having "policies" dictating how folks in the Western world interact with African folks.

This is the same type of open question situation that argues for a voluntary / non-governmental response to any anthropogenic global warming that might exist.

thoreau | October 17, 2007, 2:19am | #

Vanessa-

Here's my understanding of it: Basically, it's all about the size of your sample, and follows from the central limit theorem. Suppose that you are sampling from a distribution with a mean mu and standard deviation sigma. You take N measurements. The average of your measurements should be mu, but the average will have a normal distribution with standard deviation sigma/sqrt(N). So, in principle you could measure the mean of that distribution with arbitrary accuracy. But you'd have to have large samples, and you'd have to be confident that there are no systematic errors.

And even if there are no systematic errors, once you start adopting this statistical mindset it's harder for a racist to claim any sort of "vindication." If the difference in mean is less than the standard deviation, any statistically justifiable claim is a rather modest one. It goes from "We're the master race!" to "Statistically speaking, we're less than a standard deviation better...well, on average, at least."

Now, where you really get to claim some glory is if your group has a larger standard deviation. In that case, you'll have more outliers on the right hand side of the bell curve, so more geniuses. OK, that sounds nice...until you realize that you'll also have more dumbasses on the other side of the curve.

Besides, I'm not sure how far the race/IQ obsessives really want to push this. If it turned out that recent African immigrants have some sort of genetic advantage over descendants of black slaves, well, the descendants of black slaves just happen to have a whole bunch of genes from white southerners.

I'd love to see one of the race/IQ obsessives turn that nugget over in his 2 cylinder brain.

thoreau | October 17, 2007, 2:22am | #

And no, I was not referring to Watson with the "2 cylinder brain" comment.

Abandoned reason | October 17, 2007, 2:36am | #

thoreau, your comments aiming to deflate racists are mostly correct. however, your suggestions that a mean group difference of less than 1 sd is not "significant" in the statistical or common-sense meaning is incorrect.

fwiw -- here's a single report on mean US white and black IQ scores from a standardization sample I happen to remember -- whites (mean = 101.4, SD = 14.7, N=1664), blacks (mean = 86.9, SD = 13.0, N=192) from (Reynolds, Chastain, Kaufman, & McLean, 1987, p. 330)

you can do the math (the SE for those means is going to be tiny), but that difference is both significant (p less than .05) and has a large practical consequence.

Ali-Bubba | October 17, 2007, 4:00am | #

I should point out that humans actually have very little genetic diversity. You will find a greater variety of DNA in a single chimpanzee troupe than in the entire human race.
That's absurd. Normal human adults range in height from 5 feet to 7 feet. Complexion, eye color, hair color -- all of these genetically produced phenomena show a tremendous range of diversity not found in your chimpanzee troupe.

You have been propagandized by egalitarian ideologues speaking non-scientific nonsense because of an (utterly absurd) fear that an understanding of genetical differences between human groups would lead to ... well, what, exactly?

That's the crazy thing about this debate. What Watson (and Murray & Herrnstein and others) say is that there are average group differences which appear to be explained in part by genetics. So what? I just don't see why that's such a controversial statement. And yet everyone acts as if anybody who suggests this (including the leading genetic scientist on the planet) is advocating genocide or something.

People need to get a grip.

SuperMike | October 17, 2007, 4:08am | #

Thoreau:
Of course you'd say that...you have the brainpan of a stagecoach tilter!
Everyone:
Wow, it's obvious that a bunch of people on this blog don't know $hit about statistics or genetics. (Their ancestors must have come over from England as indentured servants)

josephdietrich | October 17, 2007, 5:18am | #

And yet everyone acts as if anybody who suggests this (including the leading genetic scientist on the planet) is advocating genocide or something.

This is because they use such statements in an attempt to influence policy. Watson is not, after all, making this claim in a vacuum, the innocent researcher just stating the truth. He's making this claim in connection to his views on policy towards Africa.

I'd be interested in seeing what, exactly, Mr. Watson contends that First World social policy should be towards Africa if those people are just not so smart. And why such policies should not be applied to the less smart people of our own First World nations.

Max | October 17, 2007, 5:28am | #

I would be much more reluctant to talk about this if unwed pregnacies were treated with some disdain from the PC crowd, but the bottom line is that the stupidest are overbreeding with no Darwinian intervention. I think this is happening with other races as well, but blacks are overrepresented. I don't think this makes me a racist, but a well-traveled observant person. Maybe I'm wrong. Thoughts?

The data suggests the opposite (Flynn Effect).

Dave Woycechowsky | October 17, 2007, 6:14am | #

No matter who turns out to be right in the nature versus nurture debate over why there is a gap in black/white IQ scores, the idea that we must strive to treat every person as an individual, not as a representative of some group or other, seems right to me.

Israel does a poor job meeting the spirit of this ideal.

Julian Fountain | October 17, 2007, 6:20am | #

An interesting series of comments. Of course, I have met many Americans of differing colours and have tended to find that the most intelligent have been the ones who weren't actually in America. There are a number of reasons for this, possibly including self-selection and diet - you do seem to improve when the sugar in your diet is reduced and when you get enough fibre and exercise. Leaving the States also seems to free your brains up to thinking for yourselves a bit after years of Hollywood and Fox News.

Are these comments racist?

Berry | October 17, 2007, 6:46am | #

"The data suggests the opposite (Flynn Effect)."

I didn't think I was implying that the entire world is getting stupider (not that Flynn necessarily mandates the opposite). With that in mind, how is the Flynn Effect relative to what I said?

humblescholar | October 17, 2007, 7:04am | #

I have also noticed this. I suppose we in Europe will have to reconsider our policy approaches to dealing with USA. We must now see that they have been electing their greatest minds to govern them and sending the smartest specimens of their gene pool to represent them at the UN. Bush and Bolton do not reflect their average intelligence as we had previously thought. They really don't have anyone better than that.

Even their scientists and Nobel laureates have to be re-evaluated in the light of the latest information. Apparently, according to his fellow-countrymen, they have a scientist, a geneticist in fact, who is so dumb he believes in racial theories. He probably doesn't realise that Algebra was invented in Africa.

His compatriots take him to actually be thinking only of a small genetic cross-section of the people of this huge and diverse continent from whom the ex-slaves in his country are descended from, not the Africa we know. Whatever, lets treat the Americans as dumber than us.

Theodore Dawes | October 17, 2007, 7:10am | #

noted that black immigrants perform better than slave descendents on iq tests

The simple explanation for this would be that the slave descendents were not trying as hard as the immigrants. There is a stigma attached to excellence in certain black subcultures. You don't want to be accused of "acting white".
I've always thought that the assumption people will always try their best on IQ tests was a serious flaw in the methodology.

Henri Bergson | October 17, 2007, 7:23am | #

Perform this thought experiment:

If it actually was proved, beyond doubt, that ethnic Africans did have, on average, a lower intelligence than other races, would the 'politically correct' elite accept this?

Obviously not. In fact, we would get exactly the same responses as are exhibited on this page. The messenger would be demonised.

Political correctness, liberalism, egalitarianism, cultural Marxism, cannot change facts. They cannot even accept facts.

Ironically, as Zizek argues, 'multiculturalism' actually is a false ideology that maintains the power of the white upper-middle classes. Judging others' is empowerment.

edna | October 17, 2007, 7:41am | #

Seems to me that a non-significant difference could easily be accounted for by cultural factors and biased tests.

the biased test thing puzzles me. why do asian immigrants score significantly better (yes, yes thoreau, less than a s.d., but still significant) than whites if the tests are biased? there is less cultural overlap between the academics who put the i.q. tests together and asian immigrants than there is between those academics and us-origin blacks?

i will remind a few of the posters that *no-one* makes the claim that most asians are smarter than most whites who in turn are smarter than most blacks. that's a straw man. the claim is (and the evidence, for whatever reason supports it) that *on average* asians perform better than whites who perform better than blacks on iq tests. the distribution overlap is a strong one and the tails are wide. thomas sowell is a lot smarter than me and at least as smart as charles murray.

is it racist to note that in whatever endeavor, there tends to be ethnic weighting? look at the results of any major international long distance running competition. then do the same for sprinting and weightlifting. you'll see each of them dominated by different ethnicities and there's no way that anyone could claim that "running" is culturally biased.

jpe | October 17, 2007, 7:43am | #

Watson is somewhat cracked. He's made these comments before, IIRC, but they revolved around how black women were dumber and sexier.

Shirt | October 17, 2007, 7:48am | #

Aba(n)doned Reason: Good links at 1:52. Looks as though no matter how they parse the variables, the apparent differences in intelligence between different "groups" just won't go away.

But, as others here have pointed out -- so what? Everyone can achieve individual success -- and contribute to the success of society -- in his/her own way. 23 years in the military, working side-by-side with men and women of all races/ethnic groups, has erased any prejudices I may have once had.

There's only one race: homo sapiens sapiens

Wrong | October 17, 2007, 7:58am | #

Each pure race represents a part of the human problem. Blacks have all the problems and none of the solutions of all humans. Jews have all the solutions and none of the problems. The unity of the perfect Black and the perfect Jew would create the Perfect Person.

Watson isn't racist, you idiots. He's just honest about data. Real modesty entails trusting fact over opinion. "Everyone is equal" is a pretty little opinion that helps society run better. But both between races, and within races, it is dramatically untrue. People are equal as an aggregate, as are groups of people, but they are all specified by normal curves. That's why we talk about behavior being "normal". Normal to what? Well, normal to the box of sex we've drawn ourselves into.

Please email me at deidarajefferson@gmail.com for questions or comments.

Wrong | October 17, 2007, 8:00am | #

Actually, I was wrong, too. Behavior is normal to mind, mind is normal to behavior. But the symmetry extends outside of this universe, and into the negaverse which contains all antimatter.

Oh also mind is the fundamental particle of existence, and consists in the unity of a perfect photon's wave and particulate forms. That's why a priori concepts exist: all concepts in 4d space are embodied in a fertilized egg, and it re-solves all the old problems the genetic algorithm has previously solved in the shortest possible amount of time during its gestation.

Sped up enough, the whole history of life on earth up to now takes about nine months. I can't wait for our first true ancestor sims, so we can speed up memetic evolution, too.

Wrong | October 17, 2007, 8:01am | #

What is a meme? A meme is a state of mind. What is a state of mind? For that, we need to know, "what is mind"? Answer: mind is the unity between the internal and external universe, self, and other. It's a serial processor running on a parallel architecture. Memory is a sense. What is it a sense of? TIME. Each meme is a state of mind in time.

Mana | October 17, 2007, 8:03am | #

A better question would be if an economist said the exact same thing -- that Africans aren't as smart as westerners -- could you under any circumstances call him a racist ?

gaijin | October 17, 2007, 8:12am | #

It goes from "We're the master race!" to "Statistically speaking, we're less than a standard deviation better...well, on average, at least."

Well said, er, typed Thoreau!

What's the obsession with IQ?...I'd rather like being surrounded by focussed, hardworking community members anyday...what studies show biologically based correlation to those qualities?

Jim | October 17, 2007, 9:08am | #

Wigga please.....

Fluffy | October 17, 2007, 9:10am | #

I have little doubt that if I took two populations of whites and subjected one to continuous low-grade malnourishment [to a level sufficient to stunt average height] and did not supply the malnourished with formal schooling, it would score lower on intelligence tests than my control group.

By the way, The Bell Curve does not speak to this argument, so it should not be cited. It explicitly does not offer a genetic argument, but merely claims that intelligence is heritable. Given the way human family structures work, a heritable trait can be rooted either in genetics [parents pass on genes] OR on environment [parents tend to duplicate many features of the environment in which they themselves were raised]. This is discussed by Murray at length.

Fluffy | October 17, 2007, 9:18am | #

Edna -

With regard to the ethnicity grouping in sports:

Whites were represented extremely well in almost all sports back when there were large groups of whites who were poor enough to see sports as their only ticket to achievement.

Look at the surnames in lists of old baseball players and boxers. You can literally see the waves of poor white immigrants moving through the system, and finally peetering out as those groups attained positions in society that would allow them to make money by doing things other than get punched in the head or hit a ball. Now we don't have enough poor white immigrants to produce a white boxing champion. But here come the Russians...

Sparky | October 17, 2007, 9:41am | #

"Watson isn't racist, you idiots. He's just honest about data. Real modesty entails trusting fact over opinion. "Everyone is equal" is a pretty little opinion that helps society run better. But both between races, and within races, it is dramatically untrue."

It's always a shame when someone pronounces others idiots then immediately follows up with stupid statements like these. Watson is not "honest about data," he just doesn't understand what it actually means. Obviously it's true that individual people, regardless of race, are different; no one is arguing otherwise. But there's no legitimate scientific reason to believe that different races on the whole are inherently different in intelligence; all of the differences we see can easily be explained by environment.

And Ali-Bubba, Watson hasn't been "the leading genetic scientist on the planet" on the planet for four decades, if ever. Unfortunately these days he's become kind of a joke, as these comments make pretty clear.

Ron Paul | October 17, 2007, 10:04am | #

[I]s anyone else getting sick and tired of seeing about a half-dozen posts on racism on this here libertarian blog to every one on a topic that might actually be germane to libertarianism?

Racism is merely an ugly form of collectivism. We should not think of people as members of groups but as individuals.

Whitey | October 17, 2007, 10:07am | #

The big question I have is why do real African Americans (you know the ones who have actual been to/come directly from Africa) speak better English than all of those other African Americans that have never left the US at any point in their lives?

Screw all the deep thoughts on DNA and ancestory, explain this simple fact to me first.

J sub D | October 17, 2007, 10:07am | #

I don't beleive there is any inherently "superior" or more intelligent racial or national group.

Except, of course, Canadians. ;P


Aresen, then how do you explain this?

gaijin | October 17, 2007, 10:22am | #

...real African Americans ...speak better English ...Screw all the deep thoughts on DNA and ancestory, explain this simple fact to me first.

'real' 'better'...interesting notion you have for what constitutes a fact.

An Ottawa Reader | October 17, 2007, 10:24am | #

The big question I have is why do real African Americans (you know the ones who have actual been to/come directly from Africa) speak better English than all of those other African Americans that have never left the US at any point in their lives?

Self-selection bias. That actually explains the performance of African immigrants in university as well. We're getting the cream of Africa's crop, becuase they're the best placed to easily immigrate.

re: language. My boss is actually from Cote d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast). French is the official language, but most importantly, in French Africa, French is the language of the elite. The elite speak well. So Cesaire speaks properly--in English and French.

Contrast that to the French spoken by (say) the French Canadian women who work in our cafeteria. In French Canada French was, and still is, the language of the common people, and a poorly-educated common people at that. They don't speak well at all--even more educated Quebecers have trouble understanding them.

Who was it called French Canadians the "white Negroes of the Americas?"

Jimmy Smith | October 17, 2007, 10:29am | #

Bob and Doug, eh? Lookin' good after all these years !!!

joe | October 17, 2007, 10:34am | #

The inherent differences in measures of mean intelligence among people of different races are so vanishingly small that no one can say with confidence whether they exist at all.

And the range of intelligence among people of the same race is so much vastly larger than any demographic differences.

Which means that people who draw broad conclusions about black people as a whole not being smart enough to succeed are drawing on a very weak bit of data, and then applying it to all members of a demographic group.

Does Watson think that, say, the black people with advanced degrees from western universities who make up the political elite in most African countries - the ones attempting to implement development programs - are failing because they aren't intelligent enough to do so?

Jennifer | October 17, 2007, 10:40am | #

I suppose it's possible that there are some racial differences in average intelligence, but even if there are I don't see how they'd matter much one way or the other.

If you look at men and women, for example: men are likely to be better at mathematics, while women are likely to be better at language/verbal things. Fine, accept it, but so what? There are still individual women who are brilliant at math and individual men who are excellent writers, and as long as these individuals are allowed to pursue their full potential that's fine. It will only be a problem if you think the law should either be written to say "Women CAN NOT work in math fields, and men CAN NOT work as writers," or, conversely, if you say "Since women are 51 percent of the population they MUST be 51 percent of the mathematicians as well, and if they're not that's proof of a patriarchal plot."

Pro Libertate | October 17, 2007, 10:41am | #

Aresen,

"Except for Canadians?" You mean like. . .The Shat?

de stijl | October 17, 2007, 10:48am | #

Watson isn't racist, you idiots. He's just honest about data. Real modesty entails trusting fact over opinion.

vs. what Watson said:

He said there was a natural desire that all human beings should be equal but "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true".

Minion of URKOBOLD | October 17, 2007, 10:50am | #

ALAN THICKE!!!!!!

gaijin | October 17, 2007, 10:52am | #

Which means that people who draw broad conclusions about black people as a whole not being smart enough to succeed are drawing on a very weak bit of data, and then applying it to all members of a demographic group.

Joe, what would one then conclude about the role/value of affirmative action?

Jennifer | October 17, 2007, 10:52am | #

He said there was a natural desire that all human beings should be equal but "people who have to deal with black employees find this not true".

Even if so, that can be blamed on cultural and legal factors (like the possibility that less-qualified minorities are hired to meet the legal requirement that you have X number of employees from each category, or that subpar minority employees are harder to fire because you're automatically accused of racism whenever you do).

joe | October 17, 2007, 11:11am | #

gaijin,

Joe, what would one then conclude about the role/value of affirmative action?

Absolutely nothing, since ideas about the inherent inferiority of black people have nothing whatsoever to do with affirmative action.

Affirmative action is an attempt to undo inequalities produced by culture, society, and law. Affirmative Actions assumes that vast disparities in wealth, opportunity, or social standing among different ethnic groups are NOT the consequence of inherent differences.

joe | October 17, 2007, 11:19am | #

gaijin,

I take it back. If one accepts that genetic factors play no or almost no role in the achievement levels of different demographic groups, then certain conclusions inevitably follow from that.

For example, that there must be cultural, economic, legal or other social factors that exaplain different outcomes, rather than the difference in median SES between black and white families being natural.

Or, that the robustness and longetivity of these outcome-differences demonstrates that inequalities imposed at an earlier point in history will not just even themselves out via meritocratic competition once those inequalities are no longer being enforced.

Jennifer | October 17, 2007, 11:21am | #

Affirmative action is an attempt to undo inequalities produced by culture, society, and law. Affirmative Actions assumes that vast disparities in wealth, opportunity, or social standing among different ethnic groups are NOT the consequence of inherent differences.

And if affirmative action, in practice, meant "if you have an equally qualified white guy and minority guy, the minority guy gets preference," that might even work. But when it means "hire the less-qualified minority guy over the more-qualified white guy, or hire the less-qualified woman over the more-qualified man," that does not eradicate injustice; it merely substitutes one form of legally-enforced injustice for another.

treadwell | October 17, 2007, 11:23am | #

Affirmative Actions assumes that vast disparities in wealth, opportunity, or social standing among different ethnic groups are NOT the consequence of inherent differences.

And this false assumption is why Affirmative Action should be abolished, or at least greatly reduced.

Even if so, that can be blamed on cultural and legal factors

Your language gives you away, Jennifer. Rather than looking for factors on which to blame the phenomenon to which Watson refers, how about going for the truth?

Jennifer | October 17, 2007, 11:28am | #

Your language gives you away, Jennifer. Rather than looking for factors on which to blame the phenomenon to which Watson refers, how about going for the truth?

That's exactly what I've done. If you have a system that holds people to different standards based solely on what color they are, then you'll sho-nuff start noticing big differences between the colors. If, for example, a white person has to be a super-genius to gain admittance to a certain school, whereas a black guy only has to be slightly smarter than average, you'll soon find the school populated by white super-geniuses and black so-so intellects. Does this mean blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites? No; it means the system does not demand as much intelligence from blacks than from whites, and therefore won't GET as much intelligence from blacks than from whites.

Neu Mejican | October 17, 2007, 11:30am | #

For more on the statistics of heritability and complex behavior traits, this is the best short discussion on the topic I have seen.

http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/weblog/520.html

Those who use the Bell Curve as their source should read this as well to get an in-depth peer review of the science
http://www.powells.com/biblio?PID=27627&cgi=product&isbn=0-387-94986-0

And for those interested in a detailed look at the current techniques being used to delve into human population genetics
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1893020

A final complication arises when racial classifications are used as proxies for geographic ancestry. Although many concepts of race are correlated with geographic ancestry, the two are not interchangeable, and relying on racial classifications will reduce predictive power still further.

The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them. It is also compatible with our finding that, even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population. Thus, caution should be used when using geographic or genetic ancestry to make inferences about individual phenotypes.

dhex | October 17, 2007, 11:32am | #

the truth is culture doesn't exist or something i guess...

What is a meme? A meme is a state of mind.

no. a meme is a metaphor to describe cultural transmission patterns.

J sub D | October 17, 2007, 11:32am | #

Often ignored in the nature vs nurture is the in utero environment. The evidence that pre natal environment is of paramount importance to the physical and mental development of a child is overwhelming. Since poverty is a major cause of poor prenatal care, we can expect the underclass, as a goup, to have lower mental development. It appears to me that, genetics aside, this would be self perpertuating. i.e. "Stupid" people neglecting/unable to nurture a fetus properly, both pre and post natal, would have "stupid" children that are also unable to properly care for their offspring. If so, the underclass children will have lower "intelligence" by any valid measurement. Is there anyway to seperate this from the genetic/social influences?

Of cousre, I haven't been to college so I'm probably talking out of my ass.

joe | October 17, 2007, 11:38am | #

Jennifer,

You've just replaced Watson's "clever" with "qualfied."

And even then, your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. Your argument is that of the absolutist pacifist - because a soldier might shoot an innocent civilian or conscript, it can never be right to use the army.

Neu Mejican | October 17, 2007, 11:40am | #

This seems to directly contradict Watson's interpretation...

While the estimates in Table 3 are quite imprecise, the qualitative results are
not likely to be affected by reasonable alternative methods. The results are somewhat
surprising: wealth, race and schooling are important to the inheritance of
economic status, but IQ is not a major contributor, and, as we have seen above, the
genetic transmission of IQ is even less important.


http://www.santafe.edu/~bowles/2002JEP.pdf

joe | October 17, 2007, 11:42am | #

If you have a system that holds people to different standards based solely on what color they are, then you'll sho-nuff start noticing big differences between the colors.

Oh, please, Jennifer. As if racism and demeaning the intelligence of black people is a consequence of affirmative action. You might have noticed, there is quite a bit LESS racism and LESS acceptance of the theory of black inferiority than there was before affirmative action began. Do you think Watson is assuming the intellectual inferiority of Africans because he's had a great deal of experience working with them?

Neu Mejican | October 17, 2007, 11:48am | #

The appropriateness of Affirmative Action programs is highly dependent upon implementation.

Jennifer's objections are based on a certain idea about how affirmative action programs work in Universities...most don't work like that.

Most AA policies say: ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, we will choose someone from group A over group B. Or ONCE ADMISSION CRITERIA ARE MET, we will consider group membership as a factor among many in filling available slots.

Selection processes in most Universities are highly subjective to start with. Many AA programs simply attempt to bring some of the biases out in the open.

Jennifer | October 17, 2007, 11:48am | #

Oh, please, Jennifer. As if racism and demeaning the intelligence of black people is a consequence of affirmative action.

Joe, judging people differently based on their race is, by definition, racism. I am saying that people should be judged as individuals, not members of a given race or gender group.

You've just replaced Watson's "clever" with "qualfied."

If you want to pretend that qualifications shouldn't matter when hiring for a job--well, I suppose it's easier to do that when you work for the government and know that mere failure won't drive you out of business. I've been working for the private sector for some time now, and while I don't give a damn what color my colleagues are I DO care that they be able to do their jobs, because if they don't the whole paper might go under and then we'll ALL be out of work.

Dobee | October 17, 2007, 11:52am | #

After reading Immaculee Ilibagiza's account of the Rwanda Holocaust, I was totally impressed by her intelligence and capabilities as an individual. At the same time, I had to ask myself if such an event could have happened any place else besides black Africa.

thoreau | October 17, 2007, 11:53am | #

The question I have is what IQ tests actually mean. I'm in a business where I encounter a lot of people who did well on standardized tests. If I had a nickel for every person I've met who's doing badly in classes and projects, but still talks about having great test scores, I could pay for that person to spend another 8 years in the most expensive private college getting even more bad grades.

For the IQ obsessives, here's what I have to say: Hey, IQ boy! You claim to be so knowledgeable about the workings of the brain? You're part of the master race? You're smarter than all the rest of them? Then quit analyzing those IQ scores and go build the next generation technology that will replace fMRI. You do that, and I'll be impressed by your smarts.

joe | October 17, 2007, 11:56am | #

Jennifer,

Joe, judging people differently based on their race is, by definition, racism.

Yes. Fortunately, affirmative action isn't about "judging" anyone based on their race or group membership. As you say, minority students who are "judged" to be less accomplished than white students are given preferential treatment. This has nothing to do with allowing their race to influence how they are judged, in a meritocratic sense, as individuals, but with allowing factors other than their meritocratic judgement to influence their admissions decisions.

If you want to pretend that qualifications shouldn't matter when hiring for a job...

If you want to pretend that's what I've argued, go right ahead.

Is there something you'd like me to clear up for you?

BTW, we've had affirmative action for about 35 years now, and the economy is doing just fine. As a matter of fact, studies have shown that companies with diversity-in-hiring programs outperform those without.

And I've been in the private sector for a couple of years now, so you can drop the snotty superiority.

joe | October 17, 2007, 11:57am | #

Dobee,

Perhaps you should turn your reading towards Europe in the 30s and 40s.

RP supporter | October 17, 2007, 11:58am | #

Smart or dumb, they don't need our tax dollars in aid.

Go Ron Paul!

Vanessa | October 17, 2007, 12:04pm | #

Thoreau – thank you for your comments.

Fluffy - I have little doubt that if I took two populations of whites and subjected one to continuous low-grade malnourishment [to a level sufficient to stunt average height] and did not supply the malnourished with formal schooling, it would score lower on intelligence tests than my control group.

Seems obviously true to me.

Ali-Bubba - And yet everyone acts as if anybody who suggests this (including the leading genetic scientist on the planet) is advocating genocide or something.

It’s not the necessarily the scientists who suggest this that are worrisome. Genocide happens without scientific consensus on meaningful differences in intelligence by race. Humans, regardless of race, have a huge capacity for brutalizing others and generally choose victims that are perceived as inferior. As I see it, naïve optimism underlies any expectations that an ethic of treating others as individuals would smooth things over if such a consensus were to develop.

Julian – I’ve spent 5 or so months in England over the past decade and have been consistently impressed with the intensity of the obsession with celebrities over there. I’m not going to claim I don’t enjoy it. British gossip rags put American ones to shame, though I do think that since the advent of reality TV (didn’t the BBC invent that?) American publications have been learning a lot from the British. We even have OK magazine now, though it’s not quite as snarky as the British one. It seems that in addition to the greater fervor of the British obsession with celebrity-hood, there is a greater need to demean the objects of adulation.

joe | October 17, 2007, 12:05pm | #

Jennifer,

I've been living in an affimative-action-ed world my entire life, and yet my experience hasn't led me to conclude that black people are any less intelligent than white people.

How about you?

joe | October 17, 2007, 12:08pm | #

It isn't racist, per se, to theorize that there are differences in mean intelligence between a white population and a black population.

It most certainly is racist to ignore the much greater diversity within those population groups, and to draw conclusions about individual black people's intelligence, or to ignore all of the historical and political influences in play attribute differences in power/status/wealth to biological differences.

Neu Mejican | October 17, 2007, 12:11pm | #

Dr. T.,

IQ is a fairly ( fairly ) good predictor of school success, but in a university setting you have a fairly homogeneous sampling of IQ (skewed quite high in top institutions). In those settings, the other factors are more important in discriminating between successful and unsuccessful individuals.

A point about "significant" versus "important."

The statistically significant results used in most of these studies are partly the result of huge statistical power that can reveal unimportant group differences.

Try this thought experiment.

You have a stack of IQ results and you are to sort them by race using only the IQ score (your accuracy will be checked against self-identified race).

Would the IQ score be useful in completing your task? If not, the statistically significant difference between the groups is unimportant.

Jennifer | October 17, 2007, 12:51pm | #

This has nothing to do with allowing their race to influence how they are judged, in a meritocratic sense, as individuals, but with allowing factors other than their meritocratic judgement to influence their admissions decisions.

And I'm saying there's nothing wrong with "merit" being the main factor in deciding whether a person of any color is given a position that's supposed to be earned based on merit. Also notice you've switched arguments; now, instead of arguing against racism, you're argung against meritocracy.

If you want to pretend that qualifications shouldn't matter when hiring for a job... If you want to pretend that's what I've argued, go right ahead.

Nice semantics, Gunnels. I said the best-qualified person should get a job, you claimed I was merely substituting "qualified" for the somehow-racist "clever," but now you're saying ... oh, fuck it.

BTW, we've had affirmative action for about 35 years now, and the economy is doing just fine. As a matter of fact, studies have shown that companies with diversity-in-hiring programs outperform those without.

But you don't know how the economy might do otherwise. Nor do you know (though we can well suspect) how much of those outperforming companies are due to the market in action, versus those companies being less likely to be hassled by the government for having the wrong percentages of races on staff. I can show you many studies demonstrating that pot smokers are more likely to go to jail than boozehounds, but that says more about the law than it does the relative merits of marijuana versus alcohol.

Seriously, Joe: why are you so terrified at the thought of a society where people are judged on their individual abilities, rather than their group affiliations? What is it about the phrase "give the job to the one who's the most qualified" that makes you assume this will result in non-whites getting hurt? Unless you automatically assume that a non-white will be less qualified than a white person.

And I've been in the private sector for a couple of years now, so you can drop the snotty superiority.

Good for you! I didn't realize there were private-industry city-planner jobs, so I'm guessing you've switched careers?

mnuez | October 17, 2007, 12:56pm | #

The fault, dear Ronnie, is not in our stars but in ourselves. It is EXTRAORDINARILY obvious that the main factor, out of which most other factors flow, for black non-success in our society is genetic.

That being the case, you and all of your libertarian friends have the choice of either choosing to be Nazis or to cease being Free Marketers (capitalized as all religions are).

People don't suffer the ravages of Western Civilizations bottom rungs because they "choose" to live a life of worry, stress and struggle for survival. They live among the dregs because they aren't as "fit" as you to "survive" the Free Market that you worship.

In my opinion therefore they have every natural right to rise up and take from you your status, class and goodies by the force of their brute fists. Your capitalism has resigned them to a world where they live constantly at the edge of despair and they have every right to upturn your applecart.

So, again, racial inequality May be an illusion of mine... but I don't think so.

Of course however race has nothing to do with it. The evil nature of the unregulated free market destroys the souls of less able Japanese people in a racially monolithic society as well. Pygmies are not the only people less able to become top-notch lawyers than is Alan Dershowitz. Lots of Ashkenazi Jews have low intelligence or other personality faults that keep them from attaining "the American dream" as well - and these people are just as likely to suffer the ill effects of the "greed is good" (or was it "God"?) doctrine as is a Birmingham black kid. But the issue of "race" may turn out to be the one that finally shows your type for who you are: people who are simply Lucky enough to be born with the right intellectual goods to succeed in the modern economic system and who justify their success through self-congratulatory claims that "anyone can do it!", meaning that you have what you have because you Deserve it rather than because of luck-of-the-genes.

And who supports you? who props you up? the very people who have the most to lose by it. The believers in the religious doctrine of Racial Tabula Rasa who keep up their laughable patter about how "racism" is what's "keeping the black man down". No doubt this constantly expressed belief improves some people's sense of self-worth by constantly telling them that "your brains are not inferior!" (Or Dumbo Diamond style, "Yali's people are SUPERIOR!") but it serves the one overriding goal of Genetic Meritocracy by allowing the capitalistic system to continue to function as it does.

Cheers Gentle Libertarians ~

mnuez
www.mnuez.blogspot.com

Jennifer | October 17, 2007, 1:04pm | #

Let me see if I'm getting Mnuez's points, here: black people are less intelligent than whites, which is why blacks don't do as well. It's bad to try to change this. However, the free market is bad because less intelligent people become less successful than more intelligent people. It's good to try to change this. So we need socialism to make sure the smart don't have an advantage over the stupid, unless the smart person is white and the stupid person is black, in which case we need to let natural intellectual capabilities come to the fore. And it's bad for an intelligent person to do better than a dumbass simply because he won the genetic smarts lottery, but okay for a white intelligent person to do better than a black dumbass simply for winning the genetic white-skin lottery.

Jennifer | October 17, 2007, 1:05pm | #

I could be a fantastically wealthy best-selling racist author if I still did drugs.

Sparky | October 17, 2007, 1:08pm | #

"It is EXTRAORDINARILY obvious that the main factor, out of which most other factors flow, for black non-success in our society is genetic."

You could not conceivably have less of a clue what you're talking about here. I and plenty of other people on this thread have briefly explained why the above statement is crap; and Neu Mejican and others have linked to more detailed, scholarly explanations. The information is available; if you actually have some interest in educating yourself, you should take a look.

thoreau | October 17, 2007, 1:09pm | #

That being the case, you and all of your libertarian friends have the choice of either choosing to be Nazis or to cease being Free Marketers (capitalized as all religions are).

I'm pretty sure that the rules of the drinking game require us to drink in response to this. It's either that or we devote 100+ comments to arguing with the troll, and I just don't have the stamina.

Jennifer | October 17, 2007, 1:14pm | #

I'm pretty sure that the rules of the drinking game require us to drink in response to this. It's either that or we devote 100+ comments to arguing with the troll, and I just don't have the stamina.

I don't know if he technically qualifies as a troll, since true trolldom (IMHO) implies free will and an awareness of what you're doing. "Trollius, ergo sum." I think he's a guy who genuinely believes the excuses he's concocted for why his superior white self is nonetheless near the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. It's not his fault he didn't win the genetic intelligence lottery, and if we had proper National Socialism his loss in the intelligence-genes lottery would be properly offset by his gains in the whiteboy-genes lottery.

Now do you understand?

thoreau | October 17, 2007, 1:27pm | #

Is it OK if I drink anyway? I'm still recovering from yesterday's committee meeting.

Jennifer | October 17, 2007, 1:35pm | #

Is it OK if I drink anyway? I'm still recovering from yesterday's committee meeting.

Drinking is not only okay but encouraged, Thoreau. If you get drunk enough, he might make a little sense.

By the way: committee meetings were invented by Jews to keep white men so preoccupied with petty bullshit they won't have time to overthrow the Zionist conspiracy that has secretly controlled Western civilization for the past several thousand years.

Rick Barton | October 17, 2007, 1:35pm | #

Dr Watson,

I'm a chess player. To illustrate the assumptive error you commit when you recommend the use of IQ averages and conclusions about their genetic foundation as a basis for actually prescribing ways that we deal with folks, I'd like to introduce you to Grand Master Maurice Ashley. He has the ranking of International Master, which indicates that he is among the strongest chess players in the world:

http://tinyurl.com/2nd2bu

Note that in 1991, he coached a team of kids from Harlem to victory at the National Junior High School Championships.

treadwell | October 17, 2007, 1:36pm | #

Yes, Jennifer, mnuez's post was clearly written by an unintelligent person. I guessed you noticed all the bad grammar, spelling mistakes, primitive vocabulary etc.

As far as "National Socialism" goes, I know from glancing at his blog that mnuez is Jewish.

joe | October 17, 2007, 1:36pm | #

And I'm saying there's nothing wrong with "merit" being the main factor in deciding whether a person of any color is given a position that's supposed to be earned based on merit. And who says that university slots are "supposed to be earned based solely on (academic accomplishment) merit," and not, say, whether the student will best contribute to the univeristy's other goals, such as providing an integreated, diverse learning environment? You?

Also notice you've switched arguments; now, instead of arguing against racism, you're argung against meritocracy. I haven't switched anything, just pointed out that your argugments don't work even by your own terms. Also, I haven't argued against merit, I've pointed out that it is not the only factor to be considered.

But you don't know how the economy might do otherwise. Oh, cripes, not that sad dodge!

Nor do you know (though we can well suspect) how much of those outperforming companies are due to the market in action, versus those companies being less likely to be hassled by the government for having the wrong percentages of races on staff. Since there are no laws against having the wrong % of races, just against discrimination in hiring, we can draw a strong conclusion indeed.

oh, fuck it That's probably the best stance for you to take here.

Seriously, Joe: why are you so terrified at the thought of a society where people are judged on their individual abilities, rather than their group affiliations? I don't. As a matter of fact, the biggest reason I support affirmative action is that I've seen how breaking down segregation can help bring us closer to that socieity.

What is it about the phrase "give the job to the one who's the most qualified" that makes you assume this will result in non-whites getting hurt? Nothing, at all. I just define "qualified" in the same terms as you. If a majority-white college wants to become less monotone, a black students is more qualified to meet their goals than a white one.

Unless you automatically assume that a non-white will be less qualified than a white person. Or unless you aren't making individual judgements about individual candidates, as I've been trying to explain to you, and are trying to accomplish something related to the ethnic breakdown of your employees and students.

As for the discussion we've been having, about affirmative action in colleges, having a passing familiarity with the racial breakdown of SAT scores, AP classes, and other measures of academic achievement does not translate to "automatically assuming" anything about an individual candidate. It means that you can draw a meaningful conclusion about the aggregate academic achievement of your entire black and white applicant population - that is, that black applicants will be under-represented in the upper tiers of applicants.

joe | October 17, 2007, 1:39pm | #

Seriously, Joe: why are you so terrified at the thought of a society where people are judged on their individual abilities, rather than their group affiliations?

I might as well go back to 1941 and ask why someone who supports making war on the Nazis is so afraid of not being at war.

mnuez | October 17, 2007, 1:41pm | #

I obviously did not expect to find allies here, I did however expect basic reading comprehension and Jenny, you disappointed. It's not "okay for a white intelligent person to do better than a black dumbass simply for winning the genetic white-skin lottery". Again, your reading skills would benefit from some remedial classes.

Sparky doesn't demonstrate any lack of comprehension but I believe that the data supports MY position and not his. I could, of course be wrong and I DO acknowledge that there are other factors at play here aside for the genetic but I'm quite certain that my general estimation is accurate and that his are wishful thinking.

Thoreau's first line was funny and made me smile but his subsequent entirely labeling of my comment - no, of ME myself - as a 'troll' and therefore not worthy of consideration leaves no tricks left to the Vatican in the field of ensuring that someone's view is not considered because he's "a heretic", "an apostate", "a dirty Jew", "one of them" or "a troll". Very libertarian and open-minded of you. You should be proud of yourself today. In fact, pour yourself another drink.

Oh, and Jenn, I see that you haven't finishged embarassing yourself. I like your Latin. Very impressive. Except that it would be "Cogito, ergo Troll". But, again, thank you for playing.

Urkobold™ | October 17, 2007, 1:43pm | #

WHERE THE FUCK DO ALL THESE RACISTS COME FROM?

WHO LIED AND TOLD SOME OF THEM THEY WERE SMART?

WHO TOLD THEM THEY KNEW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEIR HEADS AND THEIR ASSES? (EXPLAINS THE GOATEED TAINTS)

'FESS UP ALREADY!

WHEEEEEE!!!!!
WHEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
WHEEEEEE!!!

thoreau | October 17, 2007, 1:43pm | #

Wow, mnuez, you are just a persecuted Galileo, aren't you!

Jennifer | October 17, 2007,