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NHS to Smoker With Fractured Ankle: Walk It Off

Here's a story for anyone who imagines that government-run medicine will somehow do away with gatekeepers who deny suffering patients the treatment they need based on cold-hearted financial calculations: British doctors are refusing to perform surgery on a man with a multiply fractured ankle because he's a smoker. "Doctors at the Royal Cornwall Hospital in Truro have refused to operate," reports the Daily Mail, "because they say his heavy smoking would reduce the chance of healing, and there is a risk of complications which could lead to amputation." But at least they're willing to give him morphine for the agonizing pain caused by the injury they refuse to fix.

Michael Siegel explains the reasoning behind such decisions, quoting a commentary that appeared in the British Medical Journal:

Increased use of hospital beds and associated costs mean less opportunity to treat other patients. Based on these data, five non-smokers could be operated on for the cost and bed use of four smokers and the non-smokers' surgical outcomes would be better. A well informed smoker, unwilling or unable to quit, might assume an increased risk for himself, but the decision is not his alone when it can indirectly affect others. Then, the community must involve itself.

Siegel worries about the consequences of "community" involvement in every medical decision, and so do I. But while he calls for more compassionate, tolerant, and enlightened policies by health-care-dispensing bureaucrats, I'd like to avoid the centralization of such decisions, which inevitably leads to situations like this. Last April I attended a conference at Harvard that was supposed to explore the theme of "responsibility for health," and much of the discussion revolved around the question of how central planners should allocate scarce medical resources, including the issue of how much should be spent on fat people and smokers when the government can get more bang for its buck by focusing on skinny nonsmokers.

Scarce resources always have to be allocated one way or another, of course, and Michael Moore did not have to invent stories about getting screwed over by HMO gatekeepers. But there is an important difference when patients have some choice of providers and health plans. Some might deign to repair a smoker's fractured ankle, for example. There need not be one policy for the whole country regarding what is covered for whom. Giving the government a monopoly on dispensing health care only exacerbates the problems created by medical gatekeepers. 

More fundamentally, if people pay for medical care out of their own pockets, they are less likely to be viewed as public enemies when they fail to be as healthy as they can be. Those concerned about the totalitarian implications of treating every health-related decision as a matter of public policy should look for ways to expand competition and consumer choice in health care, not restrict it.

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Comments to "NHS to Smoker With Fractured Ankle: Walk It Off":

sage | September 20, 2007, 12:47pm | #

Huh. I had no idea that smoking was also responsible for broken bones.

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 12:51pm | #

The NHS is really crazy about ankle/foot operations. They told me they wouldn't operate on mine because of the amputation danger, which would have left me a cripple. So they'd rather let me be an assured cripple than take a small chance of being a cripple. I told the doctor to go fuck himself.

Good thing I was an American with private health care.

joe | September 20, 2007, 12:52pm | #

...and we know that the doctors' statement about the surgery not working and causing greater problems is a cover for an anti-smoking agenda and an effort to control costs because...?

...well, becasue a guy with a blog who has never met the doctors, evaluated the patient, or even reviewed the patient's medical file "walks us through their thought process."

Close enough for anti-government work.

Mr. Obvious | September 20, 2007, 12:57pm | #

Health plans are ready for hillarycare, using lifestyle as a suitable excuse to disallow everything except childbirth (where the children will be taken from the mom for dangerous behaviors). More money and less treatment: health plans are gonna be rich(er)!

tarran | September 20, 2007, 12:58pm | #

Sage, when one smokes, the oxygen levels in the blood are depressed.

When your circulatory system is stressed, this can be the difference between tissues healing and dying.

I remember a case where a man had his fingers reattached by an industrial accident. Everything was fine until the 7th day after the surgery when he smoked a cigarette. Gangreene set in, and he lost the fingers.

It is not unheard of for surgeons to refuse to operate on people because they smoke because they feel the surgery would be a waste of time and money. And as free people, every surgeon should have the right to refuse to perform any operation for whatever reason.

This being said, since the NHS doesn't have to face market competition, the doctors can turn away as much business as they want and not suffer economic harm. Thus the man will have a hard time finding someone willing to treat him. The fact hat he has been paying for medical care he is being denied for years makes this a moral crime, in my mind.

It's too bad that the fans of government paid medical care have so little trust in their schemes that they want to force people to pay into them at gunpoint.

Reinmoose | September 20, 2007, 1:03pm | #

Here's a story for anyone who imagines that government-run medicine will somehow do away with gatekeepers who deny suffering patients the treatment they need based on cold-hearted financial calculations

To be fair, this is only one system (NHS), which we seem to keep finding problems with.

Disclaimer(as though it were needed): I do not support government intervention in health care.

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 1:05pm | #

Interestingly selective quote from the BMJ, which covers elective procedures only and is mostly about the increased risk of infection.

According to the article, the guy would need to give up smoking for around four whole weeks to reduce his risk of post-surgical infection to that of a non-smoker.

Or he could pay for the operation out of his own pocket.

Paul | September 20, 2007, 1:06pm | #

tarran:

When your circulatory system is stressed, this can be the difference between tissues healing and dying.

All true.

My response: so what.

My father was 79 years old when he had quintuple bypass surgery. He was something like 72 when he had knee replacement.

It could be argued that both surgeries were unnecessary due to his age. I mean, really, how many years were we going to add to his life?

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 1:09pm | #

well, becasue a guy with a blog who has never met the doctors, evaluated the patient, or even reviewed the patient's medical file "walks us through their thought process."

joe, there is no medical justification for not setting broken bones. The very fact that they have seen fit to give him morphine shows they realize how painful it is.

The anti-smoking agenda could be present, but who cares? The point is that it is being used as a justification for denying desperately needed medical service, to a person who has been paying into the system. If that doesn't indicate to you the dangers of single-payer gatekeepers, I guess nothing will.

Leftist Believer | September 20, 2007, 1:12pm | #

Hillary will implement universal healthcare much better than the NHS has done.

Wesley | September 20, 2007, 1:14pm | #

This makes no sense. Yes, smoking a lot can decrease your recovery of surgery, but suddenly stopping smoking won't miraculously cure the damage you've already done your body. I don't think him suddenly stopping smoking would have done anything to help his recovery.

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 1:16pm | #

Wesley - from the selectively quoted BMJ article:

"A study of experimental sacral incisions of 12-18 mm found that infection occurred in 12% of smokers and 2% of non-smokers. Infection rates in smokers who had quit for four weeks were similar to those in non-smokers. In a study of wound and other complications after hip or knee arthroplasty, no smoker who quit developed a wound infection compared with 26% of ongoing smokers and 27% of those who simply reduced tobacco use. Overall complications were reduced to 10% in those who quit smoking compared with 44% in those who continued."

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:16pm | #

Episiarch,

Where'd you go to medical school? Would you say this fracture is worse than most that you've treated, or better?

They did set his bones - the put him in a cast. The doctors - the ones who evaluated him and know his condition - judged the benefits and risks from his surgery and made a medical judgement.

All the rest, about their supposed agenda, is made up. Imaginary. Incredibly convenient assumptions by people who are themselves pushing an agenda. Wholly without any supporting evidence.

Yeah, you're right - I don't find myself convinced by that type of "evidence."

ed | September 20, 2007, 1:16pm | #

It's ok. NHS has taken decades to get this fucked up. Hillary will last only 4-8 years if the End Times come and she's elected. That's about 10,000 times longer than the average American's attention span, and only twice as long as the next OJ trial. In other words, we'll have higher priorities.

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:18pm | #

This thread is amazing.

Socialist health system + smoker + procedure denied = too good to check.

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 1:20pm | #

The doctors - the ones who evaluated him and know his condition - judged the benefits and risks from his surgery and made a medical judgement.

And even though the man is a grownup who pays taxes into that system, he cannot be trusted to make for himself the decision: "Is it worth the risk of surgical complications to get rid of the pain from my ankle?" How ridiculous to think the sufferer himself should have any say in this.

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 1:23pm | #

I guess the doctors aren't too worried about the risks of the guy getting hooked on the painkillers he's taking in lieu of the surgery, though.

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:24pm | #

No, Jennifer.

People who pay taxes do not, as a matter of fact, have the knowledge to judge the chances of a medical intervention's success, or the likelihood of it causing greater problems.

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:24pm | #

I guess not.

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 1:25pm | #

Fair point, Jennifer. But insurance companies make decisions according to exactly the same logic...

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:25pm | #

Funny, just yesterday, someone was complaining about socialist health care leading patients to demand drugs and treatment when it isn't called for.

Anything for the cause.

Paul | September 20, 2007, 1:26pm | #

They did set his bones - the put him in a cast. The doctors - the ones who evaluated him and know his condition - judged the benefits and risks from his surgery and made a medical judgement.

joe, you are absolutely correct. But you're sidestepping the issue here. Choice. Once the public pays for all healthcare, the public chooses who to treat. The very reason that most libertarians abhor a fully publicly funded healthcare system is that we don't want to have to pay for our neighbors bad choices. I'm assuming that you read the article, and what becomes very clear, very fast is that this man could get the surgery he needs if he quits smoking long enough to satisfy the medical opinion of the doctors.

The rut that one gets into with publicly funded healthcare is that as a libertarian, when we do get our publicly funded system (and we will, believe you me) I'm going to be at the front of the crowd demanding limitations to care because I don't want to pay for your unhealthy choices. It's the natural outcome of anything publicly funded.

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:28pm | #

Most important, David S:

Doctors make exactly the same judgements based on medical criteria.

Do you have any idea, Jennifer, how often ER doctors have to deny people who really, really want antibiotics or some wonder drug they saw in an ad, because it isn't medically called for?

Look, I'm not a doctor, so I'm not going to second guess their medical judgement. But it's pretty freaking obvious that it was a MEDICAL JUDGEMENT. Even if you really hate socialized medicine and anti-smoking campaigns.

Just too good to check.

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 1:28pm | #

Paul - isn't it the natural outcome of any system for pooling risk - whether public or through a private insurance scheme?

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:29pm | #

Paul,

The doctors - not the public, not bureaucrats, the doctors who handled his case - decided who to treat, and how to treat him.

Sounds about right to me.

robc | September 20, 2007, 1:29pm | #

joe,

People who pay taxes do not, as a matter of fact, have the knowledge to judge the chances of a medical intervention's success, or the likelihood of it causing greater problems.

That is beside the point. It is a surgery on himself, it is his decision to make, even if he isnt qualified to judge. Now, in a free market health care system, he might not find a doctor to do it, so Im not dissing on doctors for saying no.

The point is that ALL systems have gatekeepers, most of us would prefer free market gatekeepers, not government gatekeepers.

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 1:30pm | #

Fair point, Jennifer. But insurance companies make decisions according to exactly the same logic...

Refusing to pay premiums to an insurance company you don't like is, I'd guess, easier than refusing to pay taxes to a government-run healthcare program you don't like.

I wonder what other medical decisions will be based on lifestyle choices? Don't treat STDs in sexually promiscuous people, because they'll probably just get infected again? Don't waste precious blood transfusions on athletes, who are more likely to suffer injuries than more sedentary folk? Don't do heart surgery on fatties?

People who pay taxes do not, as a matter of fact, have the knowledge to judge the chances of a medical intervention's success, or the likelihood of it causing greater problems.

I never said they did; I said grownups should be allowed to decide for themselves whether or not they're willing to take that risk. But I am not surprised that you'd promote stifling individual freedom of choice in the name of "experts agree."

Russ 2000 | September 20, 2007, 1:35pm | #

When you become a government doctor, the Bureaucratic Oath trumps the "To keep the good of the patient as the highest priority" portion of the Hippocratic oath.

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 1:36pm | #

Would a 57 year old ex-builder, unable to work because of smoking related chest problems, get better care with pure market provision?

Presumably, this guy would be looking to the state for his treatment in any developed country, including the US. And if the state didn't step in, he'd be completely screwed.

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:37pm | #

robc,

There is no - none, zero, zip, zilch - evidence that there WAS any government gatekeeping going on. The doctors used their medical judgement, and decided that the surgery would likely do him more harm than good.

The fevered imaginings of government gatekeeping going on in this post are wholly without support. They are ideological artifacts from people who got taken in because the story had a political angle.

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 1:38pm | #

There is no - none, zero, zip, zilch - evidence that there WAS any government gatekeeping going on. The doctors used their medical judgement, and decided that the surgery would likely do him more harm than good.

So these were private doctors not on the government payroll?

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:38pm | #

Jennifer,

What caliber of pistol do you think we should hold to these doctors' heads when forcing them to violate their hippocrtic oath?

Don't lecture me on individual choice, when you are so plainly contemptuous of those who exercise it in a manner you disapprove of.

Tim | September 20, 2007, 1:40pm | #

No reputable surgeon will treat an non-life threatening illness if there's a good chance that the patient will end up dead.

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 1:40pm | #

joe, looks like being obnoxious isn't just a fluke from yesterday, but is now your modus operandi. Doesn't surprise me, as it's just the real you, but whatever.

You have a touching faith in elites and authority figures, including doctors. No wonder you are a collectivist and authoritarian.

But it doesn't change the fact that it's the guy's body and he should be able to risk amputation to relieve the pain. It's not like the doctors are refusing because he might die and they don't want his death on their hands.

And you might want to consider that the NHS may be calculating that if he does have an amputation, it will cost them tons for prosthetics and rehabilitation. Morphine is cheap.

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:41pm | #

Jennifer,

So these were private doctors not on the government payroll?

I love it when you write arguments that highlight their own indefensible underpinnings.

Because they work for the NHS, they can't possibly make medical decisions based on medical criteria.

As a matter of fact, Jennifer, they laid out their medical reasoning quite plainly. It is supported by medical facts that physicians are quite familiar with. None of that goes away because of whom the doctors work for.

Tim | September 20, 2007, 1:42pm | #

There's a TV show about the Brookhaven obesity clinic. There are people there who need surgery but can't be operated on until they lose weight. They're willing to let a patient lose a leg before they'll let them die on the operating table.

Paul | September 20, 2007, 1:43pm | #

The doctors - not the public, not bureaucrats, the doctors who handled his case - decided who to treat, and how to treat him.

Sounds about right to me.


With all due respect, joe, I don't believe you. How many times have we here in the states been treated to cases of a doctors "decision" not to treat a patient where the follow-up investigation "proved" that it might have been because the patient had no insurance.

So this brings us to an interesting juncture. If a patient was turned away in an american hospital, and we got nine yards of sob-story from the media, it was the evil capitalist US healthcare system. If the NHS turns away a patient, and the British press prints nine yards of sob-story, it's just an overactive press strumming at our heartstrings?

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 1:43pm | #

Episiarch - so you phone up your insurance company and go "look, the doctors have told me procedure x is a bad idea, but I fancy having a go anyway... you'll pay for it, won't you?"?

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 1:44pm | #

No reputable surgeon will treat an non-life threatening illness if there's a good chance that the patient will end up dead.

We're not talking about someone refusing to give a boob job to a person allergic to anesthesia. We're talking about doctors requiring a man to live in guaranteed pain because they can't absolutely guarantee a lack of surgical complications. By that standard, doctors should refuse to do any non-emergency surgery at all. After all, if you go under anesthesia there's a risk you'll never wake up.

Don't lecture me on individual choice, when you are so plainly contemptuous of those who exercise it in a manner you disapprove of.

No, what I disapprove of is an individual making the choice for another individual.

de stijl | September 20, 2007, 1:44pm | #

When I RTFA'd I couldn't get past the photos.

Party on, Garth!

Ayn_Randian | September 20, 2007, 1:45pm | #

Refusing to pay premiums to an insurance company you don't like is, I'd guess, easier than refusing to pay taxes to a government-run healthcare program you don't like.

Quoted simply to catalogue joe's being pwned.

What caliber of pistol do you think we should hold to these doctors' heads when forcing them

Oh the irony. Silly joe...the easy answer is a rifle...after all, that's what the government uses to force these doctors to work.

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:46pm | #

Quite whining, Episiarch. It just advertises that you can't hold up your end of the argument.

But it doesn't change the fact that it's the guy's body and he should be able to risk amputation to relieve the pain. And it's the physicians' bodies, and practices, and they should be able to treat patients according to their best medical judgement.

It's not like the doctors are refusing because he might die and they don't want his death on their hands. Actually, it is. It's exactly like that.

And you might want to consider that the NHS may be calculating that if he does have an amputation, it will cost them tons for prosthetics and rehabilitation. And you might want to consider that the political convenience of an argument doesn't make it true.

Do have anything - anything - to back up your gut feeling that there just hadda be something other than the doctors' medical judgement influencing their decision? Anything at all - other than "wouldn't it make my case well if...?"

No. You don't.

Andy | September 20, 2007, 1:47pm | #

I can't wait for commie-socialist HillaryCare(tm) because then I can have all of the free recreational ankle surgeries that I want!

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 1:47pm | #

If a patient was turned away in an american hospital, and we got nine yards of sob-story from the media, it was the evil capitalist US healthcare system. If the NHS turns away a patient, and the British press prints nine yards of sob-story, it's just an overactive press strumming at our heartstrings?

Or, alternatively, if Michael Moore comes over all-simplistic about wonderful US capitalist health care, then that's an outrage... but if Reason does the same to the evil socialist system, then that's fighting the true fight...

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 1:47pm | #

Episiarch - so you phone up your insurance company and go "look, the doctors have told me procedure x is a bad idea, but I fancy having a go anyway... you'll pay for it, won't you?"?

Actually, DavidS, I was in that exact situation. A NHS doctor told me flat out I would not be operated on if he had his way. I went back to the US, got the best doctor in NYC, and my insurance paid for it even though foot operations carry some risk. I chose to take that risk.

So to answer your question: YES.

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:47pm | #

Jennifer,

No, what I disapprove of is an individual making the choice for another individual.

You don't seem to disapprove of making the decision for these doctors.

Dan T. | September 20, 2007, 1:49pm | #

Keep in mind that if the guy stopped smoking, they'd be willing to perform the operation.

In other words, he's getting sound medical advice that he refuses to follow. How this is the doctors' fault I have no idea.

So why doesn't he just stop smoking if the pain is so bad?

joe | September 20, 2007, 1:50pm | #

Not just the doctors' fault, Dan.

The bureaucrats who, er, um, don't seem to have played any role in the decision whatsoever.

ed | September 20, 2007, 1:51pm | #

I would pay American dollars to see joe and jennifer slug it out in a caged death match. My money is on the redhead. Unless joe also has red hair, then not.

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 1:51pm | #

You don't seem to disapprove of making the decision for these doctors.

And of course, you see no difference in the two situations: individual choosing for himself whether to assume a risk, versus individual with a degree of authority choosing whether another invidiual may assume a risk. Exactly the same.

Russ 2000 | September 20, 2007, 1:51pm | #

I may be a hateful prick, but even I wouldn't wish national health care on joe.

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 1:52pm | #

Lucky man, Episiarch. I am currently doing battle with an insurance company that doesn't want to pay for a treatment even though my doctor has recommended it.

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 1:52pm | #

I would pay American dollars to see joe and jennifer slug it out in a caged death match. My money is on the redhead. Unless joe also has red hair, then not.

You'd be cheated out of good money. All he'd do is whine about my sex life and then demand an apology.

Dan T. | September 20, 2007, 1:54pm | #

More fundamentally, if people pay for medical care out of their own pockets, they are less likely to be viewed as public enemies when they fail to be as healthy as they can be.

I dunno, the public is likely to feel some resentment at having to step over the cold, stiff bodies of those who came up a little short on ambulance fare every time they walk down the street...

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 1:55pm | #

joe, you keep sucking the dicks of experts. I'd prefer to make my own decisions regarding my own body, especially if I have been forced to pay into the system that will perform the surgery and now want some service for my money.

Ever had broken bones grating against one another for hours, joe? It is fucking horrible. I can't even imagine years.

crazy hippie | September 20, 2007, 1:56pm | #

this is classic pro-capatalist propaganda. the idea that government restricts our choices and our individualism, the myth of a totalitarian style big brother government will result from entrusting the government with the public good.

of course the abuse of power is a looming threat. read Madison's federalist papers, this is exactly why there are internal controls on government. the idea that the free market is going to provide a better, more equitable service is just foolish. corporations have NO internal mechanisms of control. their only motivation is to increase profit in every fiscal quarter.

it is nothing but sheer misinformation and manipulation that has led to the idea that the free market and the private sector can better serve the public good. by demonizing the government in the public eye, big business has weakened the only institution in existence which can possibly hope curtail the rapid exploitation of the people and resources of our nation.

Paul | September 20, 2007, 1:56pm | #

but if Reason does the same to the evil socialist system, then that's fighting the true fight...

Michael Moore's style and Reason's reporting are miles apart. We can disagree with Reason on intellectual grounds. Michael Moore is a charlatan and a liar.

If you flatter and fawn upon your potential audience, I might add, you are patronizing them and insulting them. By the same token, if I write an article and I quote somebody and for space reasons put in an ellipsis like this (…), I swear on my children that I am not leaving out anything that, if quoted in full, would alter the original meaning or its significance. --Christopher Hitchens

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 1:57pm | #

What Dan said. If there's some paradise somewhere where this unemployed and unemployable man would get all the care he needs, it can only be a country that spends more of its GDP on a socialized health system than the UK does.

Dan T. | September 20, 2007, 1:58pm | #

Ever had broken bones grating against one another for hours, joe? It is fucking horrible. I can't even imagine years.

But not so horrible that a guy would give up cigarettes, it seems.

Tim | September 20, 2007, 1:58pm | #

The person in question can always go to a private doctor and pay the market price.

VM | September 20, 2007, 1:58pm | #

Doctors at the Royal Cornwall Hospital in Truro have refused to operate because they say his heavy smoking would reduce the chance of healing, and there is a risk of complications which could lead to amputation.
Mr Nuttall, of Newlyn, Cornwall, broke the ankle in a fall in 2005. Initially he refused surgery because he had caught MRSA at a different hospital four years earlier, and was terrified of history repeating itself.
However, the hospital told Mr Nuttall, who no longer works because of smoking-related chest problems, that he would have to give up smoking before an operation could be carried out
What are the medical risks involved?

Why is he an inappropriate candidate for surgery now, when he wasn't earlier?

What particular role does smoking play in this (or what would change if he quit smoking - what are his "smoking-related chest problems"?)?

Could Frank_A help out hier with the medical issues, because there really isn't enough info about the medical decision making process really to offer an opinion either way...

Paul | September 20, 2007, 2:01pm | #

by demonizing the government in the public eye, big business has weakened the only institution in existence which can possibly hope curtail the rapid exploitation of the people and resources of our nation.

Crazy hippie:

You're absolutely right. It's called "public/private" partnerships, where governments control commerce and profit for the public good. As PJ O'Rourke said: When politicians control buying and selling, the first thing to be bought and sold are politicians.

Hey everyone, has anyone noticed that the www.nldc.org website is "under construction". Is that irony?

Paul | September 20, 2007, 2:02pm | #

The person in question can always go to a private doctor and pay the market price

Can they with the NHS? It's illegal to do so in Canada.

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 2:02pm | #

Michael Moore's style and Reason's reporting are miles apart. We can disagree with Reason on intellectual grounds. Michael Moore is a charlatan and a liar.

Reason is wonderful of course - but can be sloppy when, as Joe says, it chances upon a story that confirms everything it wants to believe about how benighted the rest of the world is.

The selective quote from the BMJ article is a good example of that.

BTW, just so I can disagree with everyone in this thread, Joe is quite wrong if he thinks money doesn't figure in a story like this one.

The NHS is supposed to run according to a weird mix of 'clinical and cost effectiveness'. It's a messy fudge, but find me a health system that isn't...

Tim | September 20, 2007, 2:04pm | #

Yes

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 2:04pm | #

Yes, Brits can 'go private' and many do - lots of people have health insurance.

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:06pm | #

The doctors - not the public, not bureaucrats, the doctors who handled his case - decided who to treat, and how to treat him.

That is absolutely false.

joe you are very wrong on this one.

The doctors are required to follow the rules of the bureaucrats.

In this case, the doctors are doing a cost benefit analysis. That should not be their job. This is a burden that the system has placed on these doctors.

joe you seem to be arguing that the doctors believe that that the surgery isn't medically necessary. But that isn't the case at all.

The surgery is medically necessary, but because of his being a smoker, the doctors are getting into probability and statistics. There is a chance it might not heal, there is also a chance that it would.

Unless he was guaranteed to not have any chance at all of healing, then the patient should not be denied the treatment that is in fact medically necessary.

nobody | September 20, 2007, 2:06pm | #

I am currently doing battle with an insurance company that doesn't want to pay for a treatment even though my doctor has recommended it.

Translation: I have shitty insurance so I am in favor of universal shitty insurance.

VM | September 20, 2007, 2:07pm | #

but that (payment source) doesn't answer the question if the risks of surgery were so great that it wasn't indicated.

Tim | September 20, 2007, 2:09pm | #

Insurance will only pay for what they consider customary and reasonable.

For instance, when I had my wisdom teeth removed, my insurance wouldn't pay for the anesthesia since they weren't impacted.

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 2:09pm | #

I may be a hateful prick, but even I wouldn't wish national health care on joe.

He wishes it on you.

Isaac Bartram | September 20, 2007, 2:09pm | #

It's my impression that the number of people "going private" has increased over the last twenty of thirty years and that this is seen as a bad thing by some advocates for the NHS.

DavidS | September 20, 2007, 2:09pm | #

Unless he was guaranteed to not have any chance at all of healing, then the patient should not be denied the treatment that is in fact medically necessary.

Is that really how the US system works? Anyone has the right to any treatment that has a chance of being effective? Even unemployed and unemployable builders?

Dan T. | September 20, 2007, 2:11pm | #

The surgery is medically necessary, but because of his being a smoker, the doctors are getting into probability and statistics. There is a chance it might not heal, there is also a chance that it would.

Unless he was guaranteed to not have any chance at all of healing, then the patient should not be denied the treatment that is in fact medically necessary.


What a bunch of crap - any doctor I hope would consider probablity of success when considering an operation, regardless of money. Wouldn't it be unethical to perform an operation that has a better chance of making a patient worse than making him better?

Paul | September 20, 2007, 2:11pm | #

The selective quote from the BMJ article is a good example of that.

DavidS. Ehh, that's a stretch. Reason links to original articles allowing those of us who care to read the original stuff in context.

And you're correct about your assessment of joe. I, libertarian to the core, believed the U.S. media stories in the eighties about Dr's decisions to "not treat" and move to another E.R. due to lack of insurance, even though it was still done under the guise of a medical decision (of course at least the person still got treatment, just delayed and possibly shoddy). So why would it be any bigger stretch to assume public monies don't account for anything here?

You know, I remember back in the late nineties there arose a minor kafuffle about grocery stores issuing 'club cards'. The theory was that with stores being able to track your purchases, we were on a slippery slope to the government (or insurance companies) using that data to limit treatment for people who weren't making healthy food choices. I thought it was a ridiculous reach at the time. Now? Not so much...

fulldroolcup | September 20, 2007, 2:12pm | #

Unless and until it is illegal to sell tobacco products and to use them, and unless and until the British government denies ALL health care to smokers because they use an illegal product, British "subjects" (a telling term, is it not? No one would ever say American "subjects") should receive health care they pay for in taxes whether they smoke or not.

How is it medically "better" that the patient's broken bones are not treated, especially if the poor guy needs continual morphine sedation? If complications "might" demand amputation, they might not, right?

Dan T's snotty comments notwithstanding, Americans do not encounter "cold, stiff bodies of those who couldn't afford ambulence fare." Under our supposedly bad health care system, everyone gets "free" treatment in ERs, and EMT's don't ask for payment up front, or even if a person has insurance, before taking them there.

OD'ing heroin addicts receive treatment at American ERs. One wonders if they do in the UK, or whether tobacco use is now considered somehow worse. Anyone know?

Tim | September 20, 2007, 2:12pm | #

It would be unethical and they'd have to face the wrath of their medical review board if the patient died. Doctors in the US routinely make these kinds of decisions.

Doctors are not like auto mechanics.

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:12pm | #

What caliber of pistol do you think we should hold to these doctors' heads when forcing them to violate their hippocrtic oath?

How many patients have died while undergoing expirimental or dangerous/risky surgery because there was a chance, even a slim one, that they might be better off having taken the risk?

Did all of those doctors violate their Hippocratic oath?

It seems you don't really understand the Hippocratic oath. It's about doing no harm, not "don't do anything that has any risks involved".

Every single time a surgeon operates there is a level of risk. This guy is no different except for the matter of degree.

Last time I checked, smokers all across the USA were going in for surgeries all the time, so the elevated risk factors obviously aren't that great on their own to prevent doctors from performing medically necessary procedures. That seems to indicate that there is something else at play here other than merely the doctors making a medical decision

VM | September 20, 2007, 2:14pm | #

Chicago Tom - how do you know?

there's not enough info about what was medically wrong to see how/if/where this case demonstrates failure.

we do not know what the guy has that all of a sudden makes the surgery, which he qualified for earlier, inappropriate.

Tim | September 20, 2007, 2:14pm | #

How many patients have died while undergoing expirimental or dangerous/risky surgery because there was a chance, even a slim one, that they might be better off having taken the risk?

Only life threatening conditions.

Paul | September 20, 2007, 2:15pm | #

How many patients have died while undergoing expirimental or dangerous/risky surgery because there was a chance, even a slim one, that they might be better off having taken the risk?

Non-fda approved AIDS drugs, anyone?

Tim | September 20, 2007, 2:17pm | #

AIDS is a life-threatening condition.

And Insurance doesn't pay for experimental treatments.

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:18pm | #

What a bunch of crap - any doctor I hope would consider probablity of success when considering an operation, regardless of money. Wouldn't it be unethical to perform an operation that has a better chance of making a patient worse than making him better?

Not at all, not if the patient knows the risks and decides to take the risk.

Of course doctors should consider the probability of success, but where does one draw the line and who decides it? What probability of success would you require before you allow treatment to go forward? 50%? 40%? 30%?
Shouldn't the person who has to live with any condition get a say? If I am willing to roll the dice after being told that I only have a 10% chance of success shouldn't I be allowed the opportunity if I want it?

Any procedure involves a level of risk. Any time you go under the knife you run the risk of infection and death on the operating table. That is for me to decide, not you or the doctor or the beurocrats.

The only thing the doctor should be deciding is what is an appropriate treatment and what is necessary to fix what ails me. The doctor should also be telling me about the risks involved and then allowing me to make an informed decision.

R C Dean | September 20, 2007, 2:20pm | #

Does anyone seriously believe that this guy couldn't get the surgery done here in the States? That this is so obviously a bad risk that not one single physician, exercising independent judgment, would take it on?

joe seems to believe that this is an open and shut clinical case, that all doctors would agree. That just shows how many doctors joe knows, and how unacquainted he is with both (a) their egos and (b) their greed.

I guarantee you that I would not have to ask more than three orthopedic surgeons before I found one who would take this case, because (a) every surgeon is a genius who can beat the odds and (b) every surgeon has payments to make on both his own Mercedes, but also those of his wife, mistress, and ex-wife.

Tim | September 20, 2007, 2:21pm | #

I guess a captial "L" Libertarian would allow any body (no medical license required) to perform surgery ?

You'd simply pick the person with the cheapest rates and maybe the best success rates to operate .

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:21pm | #

Jennifer,

And of course, you see no difference in the two situations: individual choosing for himself whether to assume a risk, versus individual with a degree of authority choosing whether another invidiual may assume a risk. Exactly the same.

The doctors are choosing whether this individual will assume that risk. They are choosing whether they, themselves, are going to perform the procedure.

Why don't you want doctors to decide what procedures to perform, Jennifer? Is is because you hate freedom?

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 2:21pm | #

we do not know what the guy has that all of a sudden makes the surgery, which he qualified for earlier, inappropriate.

All the doctors said was that he needs to stop smoking: "his heavy smoking would reduce the chance of healing, and there is a risk of complications which could lead to amputation."
Though the article said nothing about similar conditions being imposed on him two years previous, when he first broke his ankle.

There is always "a risk" in any surgery. And almost anything will "reduce the chance of healing." I'm a little bit underweight; that will probably put me at greater risk than if I had a couple extra pounds on me. Nonetheless, I'd have a low opinion of a doctor who said "To increase the chance of success, we're going to refuse surgery and make you continue living in pain until you put on five pounds. And not with unhealthy foods, either. Eat an extra thousand calories' worth of vegetables every day, and come see us again when you've gained a couple of dress sizes."

Meanwhile, the woman who's five pounds overweight is at increased risk, too. So she has to live in pain until she loses those five pounds. And her husband needs to stop knocking back a beer every night when he comes home from work. And their son needs to give up his reckless skateboarding hobby. . . .

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:22pm | #

er, the doctors are NOT choosing whether he assumes that risk.

JW | September 20, 2007, 2:23pm | #

That is absolutely false.

joe you are very wrong on this one.


I was about to point out this wonderful little vacuum of a world in joe's head where these doctors seem to live, untouched by any contamination from the NHS, where their experiience is always one of pure medicine and none of a predisposed bias from lessons learned....

When ChicagoTom did it for me.

All the rest, about their supposed agenda, is made up. Imaginary. Incredibly convenient assumptions by people who are themselves pushing an agenda. Wholly without any supporting evidence.

Hmmm, it seemed to be a unique and outragous enought of a situation for it to be deemed news by the Daily Mail in merry ol'. Maybe they know something you don't?

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:23pm | #

we do not know what the guy has that all of a sudden makes the surgery, which he qualified for earlier, inappropriate.

VM,

the remedy never became inappropriate. There is a particular way to treat broken bones.

The only thing that changes are the probability of successful healing because of the patients smoking.

That doesn't mean that the treatment is inappropriate. Just that it might be less effective

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:23pm | #

Episiarch,

I'd prefer to make my own decisions regarding my own body

So would these physicians. They're not your slaves. They're not his slaves.

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 2:23pm | #

Shouldn't the person who has to live with any condition get a say?

According to Joe's 2:21 post, no. Because that is antithetical to freedom.

Bill Pope | September 20, 2007, 2:25pm | #

The problem with private gatekeeping is that the profit motive will continue to deny "choice" to the chronically ill. Private insurers will not cover them unless forced to, and even then they have a big incentive to treat them poorly in the hope they will become someone else's problem. Health care is the ultimate market failure.

Tim | September 20, 2007, 2:25pm | #

Jennifer, should anyone be allowed to be practice medicine ? That would be the ultimate freedom, right ?

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:26pm | #

Chicago Tom,

No, YOU are wrong. You wrongfully assume that the cost-benefit analysis the doctors are doing is based on finances, when in fact, it is based on medical considerations, as it should be: they consider the potential benefits and the likelihood of success, and the potential harms and the likelihood of failure.

You, and Sullum, and the blogger he links to, and everyone else imagining a financial calculus into this story are hallucinating. There is not the slightest whit of evidence that this was anything but a medical decision, and clear and defensible explaination of what went into that medical decision.

JW | September 20, 2007, 2:27pm | #

When I RTFA'd I couldn't get past the photos.

Party on, Garth!


You aren't kidding! I couldn't get past the photos of Nigella and her flimsy dress. :::sigh:::

Dan T. | September 20, 2007, 2:27pm | #

Nobody still has addressed the fact that the patient here has chosen to not follow the medical advice of the doctors and stop smoking so the procedure can be done.

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:29pm | #

Unless he was guaranteed to not have any chance at all of healing, then the patient should not be denied the treatment that is in fact medically necessary.

That is not even remotely how physicians decide whether to perform a surgery. They weigh REWARDS AND RISKS.

Paul | September 20, 2007, 2:29pm | #

And Insurance doesn't pay for experimental treatments.

I know, Tim, my point was it doesn't stop a whole host of people clamouring for them to do so.

As we speak, there are a whole bunch of people that want insurance companies to provide treatments that don't do anything.

But I guess providing a treatment that can't do any harm [or good] is better than providing one that might...

))) | September 20, 2007, 2:30pm | #

hasn't this guy been paying extra taxes on his smokes because of smokers extra burden on the health care system. I know I've been paying extra taxes on my smokes for years for that reason. the extra cost issue has been dealt with and shouldn't be considered in the decision to treat or not treat.

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 2:31pm | #

So would these physicians. They're not your slaves. They're not his slaves.

No, except he cannot go to another doctor within the system he has paid into. Even if there were other doctors within the sysem that would be willing to treat him, the NHS says no. He doesn't have the money to go to a non-NHS doctor, he paid into the NHS in good faith, and now he's fucked.

I love how liberals like you are for the poor until the poor run afoul of one of your "big ideas", and then they are just grist for the mill. They're getting in the way of progress, so fuck 'em.

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:33pm | #

No, YOU are wrong. You wrongfully assume that the cost-benefit analysis the doctors are doing is based on finances, when in fact, it is based on medical considerations, as it should be: they consider the potential benefits and the likelihood of success, and the potential harms and the likelihood of failure.

Bullshit joe.

How do you know that what I believe is wrong? Becuase it doesn't say so in the article?

It is not based solely on medical considerations. If it were, he would be getting the surgery because it is medically appropriate, regardless of the probability of success.

The doctor's medical considerations should be to tell the patient what treatments are available/necessary and what the risks are and let the patient decide for themselves what risks they want to assume.

But since they are denying him, either the doctors or someone from above is making considerations other than medical and imposing them on this person.

Paul | September 20, 2007, 2:33pm | #

Health care is the ultimate market failure.

Would that be one of those market failures where the market careens closer to failure the more government regulation and price controls are place upon it?

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:34pm | #

Chicago Tom,

How many patients have died while undergoing expirimental or dangerous/risky surgery because there was a chance, even a slim one, that they might be better off having taken the risk? Many. Almost all of them from the underlying fatal disease which is a prerequisite for doctors prescribing a dangerous, risky course of treatment. Once again, risk-reward analysis.

Did all of those doctors violate their Hippocratic oath? No, because giving a patient a chance of death instead of the certainty of death is not harming him. Risking a patients' death or amputation to solve a less serious problem, especially when there is a good chance it won't work anyway, is a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 2:35pm | #

As stated above, if this had been a US private HMO doing the refusing, you'd be screaming about the profit motive. But NHS bureaucrats? It's un-possible!

Tim | September 20, 2007, 2:35pm | #

In this case the patient simply has to quit smoking. Same thing if he was morbidly obese or an alcoholic. Both of those conditions will also preclude treating non life threatening conditions.

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:37pm | #

That is not even remotely how physicians decide whether to perform a surgery. They weigh REWARDS AND RISKS.

joe is it your position that physicians do not perform risky surgeries with low chances of success despite the patient wanting it?

is it your position that the only one who gets to weigh risk / rewards are doctors and not the patient?

if either of these are your positions you couldn't be more wrong.

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:37pm | #

ChicagoTom,

Of course doctors should consider the probability of success, but where does one draw the line and who decides it? What probability of success would you require before you allow treatment to go forward? 50%? 40%? 30%?
Shouldn't the person who has to live with any condition get a say?


That is a reasonable position, but it is an argument against how doctors practice medicine, not a national health system. Doctors in the free market US applied the same risk/reward analysis when deciding whether to operations in the 1890s, too.

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:41pm | #

RC Dean,

joe seems to believe that this is an open and shut clinical case, that all doctors would agree. Actually, no, I don't. I said the doctors' decision was reasonable, defensible, and based on medical criteria. It might be the right medical decision, it might not. The only point I've argued is that they made it based on medical criteria, and the boogeymen of anti-smoking ideology and socialist rationing is wholly without evidence.

Maybe the guy could find a doctor in the US with a different medical opinion. Maybe he could find a different doctor in the UK. If he did, it would be one doctor making a medical judgement that contradicts another doctor's medical judgement.

I'm not the one passing judgement on the quality of their medical judgement here, or asserting that I know better than them what the right treatement is. That would be Jennifer.

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:42pm | #

No, because giving a patient a chance of death instead of the certainty of death is not harming him. Risking a patients' death or amputation to solve a less serious problem, especially when there is a good chance it won't work anyway, is a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

joe, despite what you keep implying, the odds of this man healing and not healing are much higher than the odds of requiring an amputation. It's not merely it works or it gets amputated.

So if let's say I have a 40% chance of healing, and a 40% chance of not healing properly and a 20% chance of amputation, and I am willing to take that risk, shouldn't I be provided with the treatment? Shouldn't the patient have quite a bit of say over the amount of risk (s)he is willing to take on?

Why should the doctor make that decision for me? It's my life and my body, and I will decide when I will risk life and limb once I know all the facts. Why is that so abhorrent to you

Paul | September 20, 2007, 2:44pm | #

If it were, he would be getting the surgery because it is medically appropriate, regardless of the probability of success.

Have to agree with Chitown-Tom on this one, joe. You're conflating "medically appropriate" with "risky".

According to the article: John Nuttall, 57, needs surgery to set the ankle which he broke in three places two years ago because it did not mend naturally with a plaster cast.

Assuming the reporter who penned the article isn't lying, then the surgery is medically necessary. Risky? Yes, but medically necessary.

Dan T. | September 20, 2007, 2:44pm | #

This whole debate is really kind of looney.

People seem to really be suggesting that there is a possible scenario where unemployed people with no money could be able to demand medically irresponsible procedures but yet not bother to follow the medical advice that would make the procedure doable. And that doctors would go along with it, somehow.

I mean, really, folks. Libertarians will take a few good ideas and stretch them to such absurd lengths it makes me think you don't really want them implemented. What would you do with your time if you didn't have a government program to blame everything on?

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:44pm | #

That is a reasonable position, but it is an argument against how doctors practice medicine, not a national health system.

joe you have me confused with other people.
I am not arguing either for or against a national system. I actually lean towards supporting a Single Payer system.

I am arguing against doctors taking liberties and not allowing me, as an adult, to make my own medical decisions once I have all the facts.

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 2:45pm | #

Risking a patients' death or amputation to solve a less serious problem, especially when there is a good chance it won't work anyway, is a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Pain is harm. Morphine (have you ever used it for pain, joe? I have) does not magically take pain away. It counters pain with pleasure. It is merely a counterbalance. The pain is still there, but masked enough to be bearable.

Pain stresses your body, even on morphine. It is very bad for you, and can make your life much more unbearable than losing a foot.

Keep digging your hole, joe.

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:45pm | #

JW,

Any time you can show me the slightest bit of evidence for your case, you just go right ahead.

But you can't, because there isn't any. You just assume that there must be, because wouldn't it be totally awesome if there was?

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:47pm | #

Assuming the reporter who penned the article isn't lying, then the surgery is medically necessary. Risky? Yes, but medically necessary.

Exactly. Once it has been deemed medically necessary, then the doctors "say" in the matter is done. It isn't up to the doctor to decide what kind of risks i am willing to take and whether I want to smoke during my rehab. His role is to tell me the risks and recommend action. Not to black male me into changing my lifestyle.

Jamie Kelly | September 20, 2007, 2:48pm | #

Conversation in a free-market system:
"Fred, you really should quit smoking. It's going to reduce the chances of recovering from this broken ankle."
"I'll try, doc. But I'd like to have the surgery, because this pain is killing me. I'll take my chances. And since I'm paying you, I'll elect to have the surgery."

Conversation under bureaucratic/socialized medicine:
"Fred, you smoke and so fuck it. That goes against the rules written by our masters that we have to follow. Here are a shitload of pills."
"Fuck you, Doc."
"No, fuck you, Fred. Smoker. Asshole."

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:50pm | #

Episiarch,

How do you know this guy is poor? Aw, don't worry about it, there isn't any content to that part of your comment anyway.

The first paragraph, on the other hand - the one with a subject beyond "joe is a bad person, because he's not a libertarian" - raises a good point about the inability to get a second opinion in the NHS. If it's true. But, regardless, that also has nothing to do with the unsupported, evidence-free, too-good-to-check assumption that the doctors did not make their decision bases on their best medical judgement.

Dan T. | September 20, 2007, 2:51pm | #

His role is to tell me the risks and recommend action.

And his recommended action is to stop smoking.

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:52pm | #

Chicago Tom,

joe, despite what you keep implying, the odds of this man healing and not healing are much higher than the odds of requiring an amputation.

Um, excuse me, but how did you get hold of this gentleman's medical records? And do you, ChicagoTom, MD, feel that it's appropriate to make such a statement about a patient you've seen in person?

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:52pm | #

er, "never seen in person."

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:52pm | #

Maybe he could find a different doctor in the UK. If he did, it would be one doctor making a medical judgement that contradicts another doctor's medical judgement.

Except that in the UK all the doctors have to live by the same rules right?

I am gonna assume that the reason this episode is newsworthy is because this guy can't just go to another doctor in the UK at this point, is that a fair assumption??

There may not be a smoking gun here, but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that the decision to deny him surgery is based on more than just "medical considerations"

ed | September 20, 2007, 2:52pm | #

As an aside, I believe American doctors do the same thing when choosing organ transplant recipients. If the guy in line for a liver is an alcoholic or simply refuses to stop drinking, they'll take him off the list. At least that's what happened on Scrubs.

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:54pm | #

Episiarch,

As stated above, if this had been a US private HMO doing the refusing, you'd be screaming about the profit motive. But NHS bureaucrats? It's un-possible!

I'm sure it makes you feel good to think so.

Tell me, what's harder - reading people's thoughts over the internet, or across the Atlantic? You should know; you've done both today.

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 2:54pm | #

Um, excuse me, but how did you get hold of this gentleman's medical records? And do you, ChicagoTom, MD, feel that it's appropriate to make such a statement about a patient you've seen in person?

Yes joe, I feel very confident in my medical diagnosis.

I have a doctor in my family as well as an orthopod who is a very good friend of mine and my wife. I also had this discussion with my orthopod when I had ACL replacement.

So fuck you joe and your "if you aren't a doctor, shut up" attitude.

the odds of "amputation" being required are very low.

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 2:55pm | #

Interesting quote from Joe on a thread dated August 5, 2007 and titled "Yes, there was a GOP debate":I want everyone to have access to decent health care without having people go broke, and I'm not overly concerned with ideologically-based statements about why we musn't make that happen.

Providing access to decent health care should be quite simple and very affordable, if we redefine "decent" to mean "refusing ankle surgery to a man who is in agonizing pain and currently unable to walk without a cane."

Dan T. | September 20, 2007, 2:55pm | #

Conversation in a free-market system:

"Fred, you really should quit smoking. It's going to reduce the chances of recovering from this broken ankle."

"I'll try, doc. But I'd like to have the surgery, because this pain is killing me. I'll take my chances. And since I'm paying you, I'll elect to have the surgery."

"Well, okay, I guess."

"By the way, Doc, I want this surgery done in my bedroom instead of the hospital. And I'd like to drink bourbon during the procedure."

"That sounds like a very dangerous idea. Operating in an unsterile environment carries many risks."

"Do you want to get paid or not? My body, my choice, fascist!"

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:55pm | #

CTom,

I know that what you say - that medical practice doesn't involve consideration of the risks of a course of treatment - is wrong, because I know doctors, and they have told me. They consider the risks all the time, and choose not to perform treatments they deem unjustified on those grounds, all the time.

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:57pm | #

Tom, you are wrong on the facts.

Do you know any doctors?

If you do, ask him.

You are incorrect.

JasonC | September 20, 2007, 2:57pm | #

I wish to fully support ChicagoTom's comments in this thread.

ChicagoJason

Tim | September 20, 2007, 2:58pm | #

If there's one thing that will absolutely enrage a doctor is to tell them how to do their job.

If you don't like it. Go to Mexico and have a back alley operation.

J sub D | September 20, 2007, 2:58pm | #

They consider the risks all the time, and choose not to perform treatments they deem unjustified on those grounds, all the time.

That explains why there are no boob implants anymore. I was wondering why.

poco | September 20, 2007, 2:59pm | #

Yes, Brits can 'go private' and many do - lots of people have health insurance.

E.g., BUPA, and is often (usually?) paid for by employers.

From the hilarious, highly recommended early '80s novel Secret Diary of Adrian Mole Aged 13 3/4:
I have had a letter from the hospital to say that I have got to have my tonsils out on Tuesday the 27th. This has come as a complete shock to me! My father says I have been on the waiting list since I was five years old! So I have had to endure an annual bout of tonsillitis for nine years just because the NHS is starved of finance!...I will get a paper round [route] and go private... I am joining BUPA as soon as they'll have me.

joe | September 20, 2007, 2:59pm | #

You too, Episiarch. You are wrong on the facts. Doctors refuse treatement on the grounds of it doing more harm than good all the time.

You don't know what you're talking about. You're justing assuming incorrect facts in order to buttress your case.

This is the last comment I'm making on the subject.

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 3:00pm | #

I know that what you say - that medical practice doesn't involve consideration of the risks of a course of treatment - is wrong, because I know doctors, and they have told me. They consider the risks all the time, and choose not to perform treatments they deem unjustified on those grounds, all the time.

Are you purposely being obtuse?

I never said "that medical practice doesn't involve consideration of the risks of a course of treatment" so please stop wasting your time arguing against things I didn't say.

But it isn't only up to the doctor. if a patient knows the risks and is willing to take them, the system as a whole should not lock this person out of it.

Sure any doctor is free to opt out of doing a surgery for whatever reason they want. But that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about a system that is refusing to let any doctor do the surgery because the system has deemed his lifestyle to risky.

Further

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 3:01pm | #

Tom, you are wrong on the facts.

Do you know any doctors?

If you do, ask him.

You are incorrect.
>

Oh I can play this game too.

Joe, you are wrong on the facts.

Do you know any doctors?

If you do, ask him.

You are incorrect.

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 3:01pm | #

Tell me, what's harder - reading people's thoughts over the internet, or across the Atlantic? You should know; you've done both today.

Yes, of course, my having been in nearly the identical situation as this man means I have no clue what is going on.

My having a foot operation and having the doctor explain the chances of amputation (which are very low) to mean means I have no insight into this situation.

My personal experience with the NHS for this exact same thing means I know nothing.

Yet you, who has refused to address every question I have posed to you regarding your experiences with surgery, morphine, etc. (which leads me to believe you ahve no experience) know that there is no money consideration.

It must be great to be you, joe. Knowing everything would be wonderful.

joe | September 20, 2007, 3:02pm | #

Why don't you ask your doctor friend how often he makes diagnoses on people he has never laid eyes on, ChicagoTom.

This man is not you, with our ACL situation. He is an individual patient with an individual set of circumstances. Doctors make their decisions on a case-by-case basis.

JW | September 20, 2007, 3:03pm | #

JW,

Any time you can show me the slightest bit of evidence for your case, you just go right ahead.

But you can't, because there isn't any. You just assume that there must be, because wouldn't it be totally awesome if there was?


Gosh joe, I wonder if there anything in the article that is proof that it wasn't based on the doctors' previous experience in deasling with the NHS that would lead them to that conclusion.

Hrrrmmm...reading....reading...nope. Nothing says that. Not at all.

Whaddya know. My complete lack of evidence is just as valid as your complete lack of evidence.

joe | September 20, 2007, 3:04pm | #

Jennifer,

I'll see your "walk with a cane," and raise you amputation. I win! I win

Why do you want this man to lose his leg, Jennifer? Why?

Retreat to appeals to emotion much?

Dan T. | September 20, 2007, 3:05pm | #

Still...nobody has addressed the fact that the patient here has chosen to not follow the medical advice of the doctors and stop smoking so the procedure can be done.

The doctors are not refusing to help the patient, the patient is refusing the doctors' help.

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 3:05pm | #

This is the last comment I'm making on the subject.

I was just about to post that I seriously doubted this. Looks like I was right!

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 3:05pm | #

Consistency, thou art a jewel:

Joe on September 20, 2007, explaining why it's okay for doctors to refuse to provide surgery to a man who smokes: The doctors are choosing whether this individual will assume that risk. They are choosing whether they, themselves, are going to perform the procedure. Why don't you want doctors to decide what procedures to perform, Jennifer? Is is because you hate freedom?

Joe on February 8, 2007, explaining why it's NOT okay for doctors to refuse to prescribe contraceptives, give abortions, or euthanize patients who want it: I realize that the concept of public service isn't particularly honored 'round these parts, but when you choose to become a physician, like when you choose to become a Marine, you are agreeing to certain restrictions on your autonomy, restrictions that exist for the purpose of furthering important public policy objectives... Similarly, it is important for the medical profession to be a sphere in which doctors prioritize their patients' autonomy over their own preferences, however deeply held.

joe | September 20, 2007, 3:07pm | #

J sub D,

That explains why there are no boob implants anymore. I was wondering why.

The risk to a healty young woman from that surgery is very low, which makes the risk/reward analysis come out differently than the case of an old man who'se been smoking for decades, has poor circulation, and needs an operation on his extremeties.

Individual cases. Individual diagnoses. What's so difficult about this concept?

JasonC | September 20, 2007, 3:07pm | #

While I certainly don't have any evidence (don't yell at me joe!), it seems like this guy must have some special case because he can't be the first smoker that needed a foot operation and if they denied care as a matter of course, it would certainly have been heard of before now. So I would think his odds of amputation must be higher than the normal case. Still, as ChicagoTom says, it's his risk to take.

Episiarch | September 20, 2007, 3:08pm | #

joe, you were getting pwned in general, but Jennifer just totally and utterly pwned you.

Rattlesnake Jake | September 20, 2007, 3:08pm | #

"corporations have NO internal mechanisms of control"

But they sure have external mechanisms of control. It's called free market competition.

Jennifer | September 20, 2007, 3:09pm | #

Joe, when you said last February that doctors must "prioritize their patients' autonomy over their own preferences," exactly which definition of "autonomy" were you using?

joe | September 20, 2007, 3:09pm | #

I have asked doctors, ChicagoTom. That's why I'm so confident saying this.

Now go ask your doctor friend if doctors refuse to perform surgeries that patients want because they deem it too medically risky. Please. This is a very easy dispute to settle.

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 3:09pm | #

Doctors refuse treatement on the grounds of it doing more harm than good all the time.

Joe this happens a lot less than you are pretending. Most doctors will respect the wishes of their patient unless the case is pretty much hopeless.

Why don't you ask your doctor friend how often he makes diagnoses on people he has never laid eyes on, ChicagoTom.

Whatever joe, the guy has a broken ankle. It's a rather straightforward ailment.
Are you really gonna pretend like the only way to speak intelligently about this is to have examined this patient and his whole medical history. This isn't diagnosing a persistent vegetative state via video. It's discussing how to fix a broken ankle

spare us your bullshit.

joe | September 20, 2007, 3:10pm | #

Well, Episiarch's out.

When he can't argue his case, he talks about what a terrible person I am.

joe | September 20, 2007, 3:12pm | #

Jennifer, too.

Completely given up on making an argument.

Oh, look, I'm mad at joe, so I'll dig up a gotcha quote.

I win! I win!

ChicagoTom | September 20, 2007, 3:12pm | #

Now go ask your doctor friend if doctors refuse to perform surgeries that patients want because they deem it too medically risky. Please. This is a very easy dispute to settle.

joe I have.

And they agree that unless there is a very high risk of severe damage and almost no chance for success or th