Reason Magazine

Site Search

Do Anti-Smoking Activists Know the Restaurant Business Better Than Restaurateurs Do?

I've always been puzzled by claims that smoking bans are good for the bar and restaurant industry. If so, why would the people whose livelihoods are a stake stubbornly continue to permit smoking and resist anti-smoking ordinances? It's implausible that anti-smoking activists would know more about a given business's bottom line than the owner does, let alone that bar and restaurant owners as a class would be systematically blind to their own interests vis-à-vis smoking rules when they pay careful attention to every other variable that affects their profits. Yet anti-smoking activists such as Stanton Glantz insist that the tobacco industry has brainwashed bar and restaurant owners into believing that smoking bans will hurt them, when in fact such laws increase their profitability by reducing personnel costs and attracting more customers. In the latest issue of Econ Journal Watch, David Henderson, an economist at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey (and a reason contributor), exposes the weaknesses in this argument, focusing on a 2004 Contemporay Economic Policy article that Glantz, a professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco, co-authored with Benjamin Alamar, now a professor of management at Atherton College.

Using a database that includes restaurant sale prices and gross revenues, Alamar and Glantz find that restaurants in jurisdictions with comprehensive smoking bans have higher price-to-revenue ratios than restaurants in other jurisdictions. "There was a median increase of 16%...in the sale price of a restaurant in a jurisdiction with a smoke-free law compared to a comparable restaurant in a community without such a law," they write. "This result indicates that contrary to claims made by opponents of smoke-free laws, these laws are associated with an increase in restaurant profitability." Contrary to Alamar and Glantz's implication, Henderson notes, they did not actually look at changes in restaurant sale prices that followed the adoption of smoking bans—only at differences across jurisdictions. He also points out that higher price-to-revenue ratios could result from lower revenue as well as higher sale prices. Just as important, the study's sample omits restaurants that were not sold, perhaps because they were not profitable enough or even because they went out of business as a result of a smoking ban.

That last point relates to a broader criticism of Glantz's claims about the economic impact of smoking bans. As Henderson points out, a smoking ban is most likely to hurt bars and restaurants that cater to smokers. The owners of these businesses have calculated that they gain more by allowing smoking than they lose, that the smokers (and smokers' friends) attracted by a smoker-friendly policy spend enough money to outweigh the business of potential customers repelled by the smoke. If these owners are right, they will lose money as a result of a smoking ban, while their competitors might make more once competition based on smoking rules is no longer permitted. The customers who valued the opportunity to smoke lose too. Neither kind of loss shows up in gross data on revenues or sale prices.

Henderson notes that Alamar and Glantz claim "externalities" require government intervention in this area but never identify the relevant externalities. Since neither customers nor employees are forced to spend time in bars or restaurants that allow smoking, they can decide for themselves whether they're willing to put up with the smoke. The owners, in turn, suffer any resulting loss of business or increase in personnel costs (because it's harder to find workers, because they demand higher compensation, or, as Alamar and Glantz suggest, because they miss more work days and have higher health care costs as a result of secondhand smoke). Unlike, say, the harm caused by toxins dumped into a river, the costs of secondhand smoke in a bar or restaurant are internalized. In their reply to Henderson, Alamar and Glantz bizarrely insist this is not the case:

It is not possible for a restaurant owner to internalize the cost of second-hand smoke on the health of the staff or the patrons. There is no mechanism by which a restaurant owner can compensate a patron for any health costs related to second-hand smoke, therefore it is not possible for the owner to have completely internalized the costs of the externality imposed by the smoker.

In their original paper, they likewise claim the costs of secondhand smoke exposure in a bar or restaurant cannot be internalized:

Smokers and nonsmokers are not two well-defined groups but are rather numerous individuals with varied tolerances for smoke and willingness to refrain from smoking or to go outside to smoke. Even if the staff of the restaurant is ignored, the number of interested parties is very large with greatly varied preferences in regard to the externality. The large number of interested parties would cause negotiation costs to be high, which violates the assumption of low costs in the Coase theorem.

Henderson deftly exposes the fallacy:

The restaurant owner...no more need get huge numbers of people with varying smoking preferences together to make bargains than he needs to get people together to decide the menu, the lighting, the music, and the air conditioning. In normal discussions of negative externalities, it is costly for the sufferer not only to negotiate but also to exit. It is usually assumed that they are stuck in the "game," and the emphasis is on the cost of negotiation. But in the matter of going to a restaurant, the parties in question can easily decide not to be party at all. They can drive to a different restaurant or eat at home. All the restaurant owner need do is decide on a policy, announce it to the world, and then see what happens.

Although Henderson confines himself to the economics of government-imposed smoking bans, the issues of profitability and externalities both have moral dimensions. Even if restaurateurs know less about their own business than Stanton Glantz does, it's still their business, theirs to fritter away through unprofitable smoking policies if they so choose. And since exposure to secondhand smoke in a bar or restaurant is not forced on anyone, there is no externality to be corrected and therefore no moral justification for the use of force by people who prefer a smoke-free environment.

Send this article to:

« New at Reason | Main | Klein on "Neocon Disaster Capitalism" »

Comments to "Do Anti-Smoking Activists Know the Restaurant Business Better Than Restaurateurs Do?":

joe | September 19, 2007, 12:44pm | #

If so, why would the people whose livelihoods are a stake stubbornly continue to permit smoking and resist anti-smoking ordinances?

Imperfect information is one answer.

The old Mexican standoff dynamic is another. Back when I was working the field of Chinese Food Transportation, Tony told me that he'd love to stop buying MSG - it cost over $100 for a 5 gallon bucket - but he afraid to, because if he did and his competition didn't, he'd lose out.

Also, that bit about restaurants that aren't sold is way off base. If a restaurant is highly profitable, it is much LESS likely to be sold, not more. Restaurants that get sold are, more often then not, marginal businesses with owners that want to get out. By looking as restaurants that have not been sold, the researchers and taking a sample that was more profitable to begin with, in the aggregate.

It seems that you start with the answer you want, and then work backwards to find arguments and evidence to justify it.

JW | September 19, 2007, 12:48pm | #

No, they don't. But then, they really don't care.

The smoke-free zealots want their lifestyle choices to be subsidized by everyone else and they don't care who gets hurt in the process.

One local seafood restaurant in suburban DC in Maryland, that had stood for decades, closed its door due to the smoking ban.

The Anchor Inn in Wheaton had spent about $100,000 in the early '00's in smoke filtering equipment to satisfy legal requirements to provide a smoke-free, non-smoking section. Only a couple years later, in 2003, Monkey County passed a law banning smoking in bars and restaurants.

The owners closed down instead of complying. They sold the business to someone else, but it didn't last and now it's gone, torn down for development.

x,y | September 19, 2007, 12:50pm | #

It seems that joe decides he wants to ignore the liberty and property rights issues at stake, then write another worthless post.

Zundfolge | September 19, 2007, 12:52pm | #

This is still the wrong focus. I don't care if no smoking laws DO make restaurants and bars more profitable, they are still unreasonable encroachments on property rights and liberty in general.

If we could prove that "Whites Only" signs made businesses more profitable would we as a society accept such a thing?

x,y | September 19, 2007, 12:52pm | #

Oh, and joe, what makes you think bureaucrats have less imperfect information that the business owners themselves?

fyodor | September 19, 2007, 12:54pm | #

Imperfect information is one answer.

Then the question simply becomes why do smoking ban opponents have better information than do restaurateurs? Which, as I hope you can see, is the same question with different words, so you haven't answered it.

As for the Mexican standoff, that could maybe explain why restaurateurs would not voluntarily offer smoke-free environments but would then profit from a large-scale smoking ban, but it would not explain why restaurateurs would oppose smoking bans, which is the question, unless we go back to point one and figure that they are somehow unaware of what you and smoking ban backers fully know.

tk | September 19, 2007, 12:55pm | #

"Also, that bit about restaurants that aren't sold is way off base. If a restaurant is highly profitable, it is much LESS likely to be sold, not more. Restaurants that get sold are, more often then not, marginal businesses with owners that want to get out. By looking as restaurants that have not been sold, the researchers and taking a sample that was more profitable to begin with, in the aggregate."

Assuming that you are correct here for argument's sake, and only poorly performing restaurants are the ones that get sold, everything being equal, they are still worth more in areas that are without smoking bans.

Paul | September 19, 2007, 12:55pm | #

Imperfect information is one answer.

Joe, the market ferrets out imperfect information very efficiently. In fact, that's what markets do. That's why planned economies such as that of the old Soviet Union failed, and why they had ran on five year plans. They couldn't ferret out imperfect information.

CoveAxe | September 19, 2007, 12:56pm | #

A neighboring town adopted a smoke-free ordinance, even though there were already smoke-free bars in town, and they weren't doing great business.

The town council, in their infinite wisdom of course, did not bother to think of this when they passed it anyway. I'm a non-smoker BTW.

Paul | September 19, 2007, 12:59pm | #

Some years ago, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Empire, I was an invited speaker at a conference of company CEOs and presidents in Acapulco, Mexico. Another of the speakers was Gennady Gerasimov, who you may remember was Gorbachev's spokesperson to the West. I went to hear his talk, which he opened with a joke. And the joke went like this: The Soviet Union has invaded and successfully conquered every country on the planet, with one exception: New Zealand. The Soviet Union has chosen not to invade New Zealand. Question: Why? Answer: So we would know the market price of goods. --Nathaniel Branden

Bill Pope | September 19, 2007, 1:00pm | #

Using the logic Jacob employs, there should be no workplace safety regulations because anyone is free to quit ( and possibly starve along with those they support). As Joe alluded to, many bar and restaurant owners would like to go smoke-free, but only as long as others do so as not to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage. Public health invariably suffers as a consequence, though Reason's Big Tobacco contributors will always fight anything that even slightly inconveniences their addicted customers in the name of "freedom".

J sub D | September 19, 2007, 1:01pm | #

It seems that joe decides he wants to ignore the liberty and property rights issues at stake, then write another worthless post.

It's Fred's business, it's Fred's property, it's Fred's decision. That is obviously to damned complicated for some.

mk | September 19, 2007, 1:03pm | #

I worked at an entirely non-smoking restaurant in Arlington VA a little over a decade ago. It was a very successful restaurant. People did indeed go there because they enjoyed the completely smoke-free atmosphere (including the patio).
Across the street there was a restaurant that did allow smoking, including cigars even. Both restaurants did great business.

I worked in restaurants for a long time. I have seen smoking sections reduce in size over time to the point where only a few tables by the bar constituted the entire smoking section. If second-hand smoke in restaurants is a problem, it seems to be solving itself.

StupendousMan | September 19, 2007, 1:06pm | #

Bill Pope,

Is secondhand smoke unhealthy? Probably in certain circumstances. It's certainly not nearly as unhealthy as smoking. Being able to smell smoke is not secondhand smoke, being in a room hazy with smoke probably is. I can't believe there are any valid health issues with smoking sections in bars or restaurants.

joe | September 19, 2007, 1:09pm | #

x, y,

Why would I possibly be interested in replying to you, bitch?

fyodor | September 19, 2007, 1:12pm | #

Also, joe, your Mexican standoff scenario actually assumes that allowing smoking is a competitive advantage, which flies in the face of the notion that restarateurs would ban smoking if only all the other restaurants would -- UNLESS there are increased costs (such as with buying MSG). Now, I'm sure you can find ways to argue that that's the case. But what have I seen in Denver? Lots of money spent on outdoor patios! Now, I must admit I kinda like the outdoor patios. But it seems to me the "externality" of the smoking ban was more likely to have increased costs than to have decreased them. Oh, but I'm sure those restaurants and bars would never have dreamed of setting up outdoor patios without being forced, and similar establishment owners in other states could not possibly notice as you enlightened ban supporters do!

joe | September 19, 2007, 1:12pm | #

fyodor,

Then the question simply becomes why do smoking ban opponents have better information than do restaurateurs?

I don't think they did, initially. They were just sort of acting on faith.

Now, if they do have better information, it would probably be because they have several years worth of evidence to go through on the consequences of the smoking ban, which is something researchers are going to do more often than restaurant owners.

BTW, what, exactly, do you suppose I know?

fyodor | September 19, 2007, 1:14pm | #

x, y,

Why would I possibly be interested in replying to you, bitch?


You just did! My unsolicited advice to you, joe, is to ignore anyone who attacks you personally and reply to those who treat you with respect using the reserve time and energy you have saved!

joe | September 19, 2007, 1:15pm | #

Paul, J sub D,

Is this part where I cross myself three times, or kneel?

Nephilium | September 19, 2007, 1:18pm | #

What do smoking bans hurt? The places us evil, life stealing smokers like to hang out.

In general, these are:

Bars.
Coffee Shops.
24-hour diners.

All of these get hurt by smoking bans... (anecdotal evidence alert: When the ban went live here in Ohio, there was a 24-hour diner calling into a Saturday talk show saying that the previous night, his business brought in $80. It used to bring in $800 every Friday.)

And to Bill Pope: If there is this huge desire to go smoke free, then there is NO competitive disadvantage to going smoke free. It just means us evil smokers will go elsewhere. That is a competitive advantage, it means you'll get more non-smokers, and if there are as many non-smokers who wish to go out to the bars as everyone who keeps pushing these damned bans down our throat think, you'll be rolling in cash. However, it seems that those who "really want to go to the bar, but hate the smoke", don't actually go out to the bars that much. Whereas us horrible filthy smokers become fixtures in bars.

Oh well... the smoking bans have saved me money... drinking at home more... it's cheaper, and I have a better selection... now just to find a cute female to be my bartender at home...

Nephilium

joe | September 19, 2007, 1:19pm | #

fyodor,

If you don't smack the doggie in the nose when he yaps, he'll keep yapping.

Also, joe, your Mexican standoff scenario actually assumes that allowing smoking is a competitive advantage, which flies in the face of the notion that restarateurs would ban smoking if only all the other restaurants would -- UNLESS there are increased costs (such as with buying MSG).

Or unless the elimination of smoking increases the overall restaurant customer base.

Oh, but I'm sure those restaurants and bars would never have dreamed of setting up outdoor patios without being forced

Well, the one datum I have about the subject - the post you just wrote - indicates that the smoking ban did, in fact, lead to more patios being set up.

fyodor | September 19, 2007, 1:19pm | #

Now, if they do have better information, it would probably be because they have several years worth of evidence to go through on the consequences of the smoking ban, which is something researchers are going to do more often than restaurant owners.

Well, there's no reason restaurateurs can't read what the researchers have found! But anyway, now we're getting to the crux of the matter. Experts (such as researchers) know more than the people who are actually directly affected. This is at the crux of libertarian - statist disagreements. No point, probably, in arguing about it.

As for what you know, you'll have to excuse me if I perhaps read a little more into what you were you saying than you actually were. If you don't claim to know that smoking bans have no adverse effects on the industries subjected to them, well all right then!

And apologies for my previous premature post about who to pay attention to!

fyodor | September 19, 2007, 1:22pm | #

Well, the one datum I have about the subject - the post you just wrote - indicates that the smoking ban did, in fact, lead to more patios being set up.

Sure, but that doesn't mean it was good for business versus not having been forced to to attract smokers!

joe | September 19, 2007, 1:24pm | #

fyodor,

Sometimes, people who actually look at data do know more than people who draw their information from their personal experience.

This really has nothing to do with statism.

Pauline Kael doesn't know a single person who still goes to bars, now that there's a smoking ban.

I don't know if the smoking bans have been an overall detriment or benefit to restaurants, or not. I do know that the statement "the businessowner must know more, and we don't need no eggheads looking at evidence" is a statement of faith. If I can find a single restaurant owner who was surprised to see his business increase after the smoking ban, which wouldn't be too hard, then the whole argument collapses.

mk | September 19, 2007, 1:24pm | #

To restate my previous point in a more obvious way:

Non-smokers have already made their wishes known. Smoking in restaurants is occurring less and less and there is more impetus to provide ventilation in those places where smoking still exists to cater to non-smokers. The exception is places where smoking is more or less the point of going.

It must be great to be a public health official and be able to take credit for things that are happening via the market.

Ken Shultz | September 19, 2007, 1:26pm | #

"It's implausible that anti-smoking activists would know more about a given business's bottom line than the owner does, let alone that bar and restaurant owners as a class would be systematically blind to their own interests vis-à-vis smoking rules when they pay careful attention to every other variable that affects their profits."

There definitely seems to be a common misconception among the chattering asses about small business owners and their qualifications for making business decisions.

If a business owner doesn't have an MBA or his choices haven't been circumscribed by someone who can be held responsible by an elected official, then he obviously doesn't know what he's doing.

...I mean, I've always had a sense that something like that was lurking in the background, but lately that noise seems to be getting worse. It's bad enough hearing that consumers don't know what's in their own best interests--throwing that crap at business owners goes even beyond that.

Episiarch | September 19, 2007, 1:31pm | #

joe, you responded to:

It seems that joe decides he wants to ignore the liberty and property rights issues at stake, then write another worthless post.

with:

Why would I possibly be interested in replying to you, bitch?

Aside from the over-reaction of you giving this response to the word "worthless", care to address the liberty and property rights issues at stake?

Ayn_Randian | September 19, 2007, 1:31pm | #

joe -

Do you support smoking bans?

Ken Shultz | September 19, 2007, 1:31pm | #

The idea that consumers need the government to protect them from businesses still seems silly to me, but the idea that businesses need the government to protect them from their customers--that's ridiculous.

joe | September 19, 2007, 1:35pm | #

mk,

There has indeed been a cultural change, that' can't be ignored.

It also can't be ignored that this cultural change has occured largely after the widespread experience of restaurant owners and customers with nonsmoking sections and complete bans.

Sometimes, society gets into a groove, and the choice isn't between A and B, but between the status quo and change. If change has a start-up cost, that is a thumb on the scale for A. If the consequences of switching to B is unknown, then that's another thumb on the scale for A.

This complicates the issue of whether a revealed preference for A over B has actually been established by the fact that businessowners didn't make the change to B.

ed | September 19, 2007, 1:36pm | #

I can't add anything that hasn't already been said 200 times every 6 weeks this topic gets recycled here except congratulations to all who correctly spelled restaurateur without adding the erroneous "n". Kudos! Please pass along your wisdom to your local news anchors.

The Wine Commonsewer | September 19, 2007, 1:37pm | #

While it is true that sometimes businesses do things that make little sense, ie there's no damn reason for it, it's just our policy, as a rule businesses tend to operate in a reasonably efficient manner for exactly the reasons economists cite. If they don't, they go out of business.

In my line of work I see numbers that sometimes don't make sense. Usually that leads to a serious discussion with a client. Often there is a solid reason to explain what I (Mr Outside Numbers Guy) thinks don't make sense.

I was thinking about the airline industry's whining to CONgress for a blanket ban on in-flight smoking because smoking is icky and it messes up the aircraft's air filtration systems. But then I read Fyodor's comment and realized the difference.

The airlines wanted smoking banned across the board while the bar owners generally do NOT support a smoking ban. [this is being hit in the head lessons, sorry for it not sinking in sooner]

joe | September 19, 2007, 1:40pm | #

Episiarch,

No, not really. There's only so far a conversation about whose values are superior can go. I mean, mine, obviously.

Ayn Randian,

I don't have strong feelings one way or another.

Episiarch | September 19, 2007, 1:44pm | #

No, not really. There's only so far a conversation about whose values are superior can go. I mean, mine, obviously.

Color me surprised. Nice to know that you completely dismiss the concerns of liberty and property rights.

As if I needed more proof that liberals are as uninterested as conservatives in personal liberty or individual rights.

The Wine Commonsewer | September 19, 2007, 1:44pm | #

And of course, it bears repeating.

Even if restaurateurs know less about their own business than Stanton Glantz does, it's still their business, theirs to fritter away through unprofitable smoking policies if they so choose

bill | September 19, 2007, 1:45pm | #

What I don't get is why don't both governments and bar owners understand the use of air exchangers? If I'm changing the air in my bar every few minutes this whole thing is a non-issue. Instead of an outright ban, just set an acceptable parts per million of smoke and mandate that. A couple of thousands of dollars of air handling equipment (a few fans and a heat exchanger) and EVERYONE can be happy.

fyodor | September 19, 2007, 1:45pm | #

Sometimes, people who actually look at data do know more than people who draw their information from their personal experience.

That's a rather noncomittal statement there, joe. You can say "sometimes" to almost anything.

This really has nothing to do with statism.

Whether you feel you are making such an argument personally, I've heard the argument enough that I think it's central to statist thought that experts who have more data than common folk are better at making decisions for them than they are for themselves. Do you really think this has nothing to do with your POV? I actually don't really see it as an inherently vile POV, even if I believe it to be severely misguided. It may even be true..."sometimes"! :-) Just less often than it is not true!

Tim | September 19, 2007, 1:47pm | #

I'm a Liberal and a recent non-smoker and I am 100% opposed to smoking restrictions for private businesses.

It all boils down to "think of the children " doesn't it ?

Jennifer | September 19, 2007, 1:49pm | #

The state telling people what they can and cannot do on their own property has nothing to do with statism?

Paul | September 19, 2007, 1:50pm | #

As Joe alluded to, many bar and restaurant owners would like to go smoke-free, but only as long as others do so as not to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage.

Bill Pope... how do you explain the plethora of non-smoking establishments pre-smoking ban?

fyodor | September 19, 2007, 1:50pm | #

It all boils down to "think of the children " doesn't it ?

Or in this case, adults who are being treated as children!

Paul | September 19, 2007, 1:51pm | #

Paul, J sub D,

Is this part where I cross myself three times, or kneel?


I...don't know... is this what you usually do when a new regulation or ban is passed?

The Wine Commonsewer | September 19, 2007, 1:52pm | #

What I don't get is why don't both governments and bar owners understand the use of air exchangers

I've noticed in the newer casinos in Nevada that you can't hardly tell when you've strolled out of the smoking section of the casino into the non-smoking section. I'm sure that's just good engineering and modern technology.

CoveAxe | September 19, 2007, 1:54pm | #

I was thinking about the airline industry's whining to CONgress for a blanket ban on in-flight smoking because smoking is icky and it messes up the aircraft's air filtration systems.

Why do they need Congress to make a law? Can't they just ban it on their flights regardless?

Tim | September 19, 2007, 1:56pm | #

Smoking bans in bars are complete ridiculous. Next they'll ban sex in bars.....oh wait.

KenK | September 19, 2007, 1:59pm | #

I smoked two packs of Camel straights a day before I quit. There's really no value in smoking to offset the risks, and the stink. It's simply an addiction.

Now I just don't go anywhere that allows smoking if I can at all help it. Sure I'd like to see smoking banned (also farting and lousy perfume) but if everyone that dosen't like smoke would also avoid places that allow smoking, then there wouldn't be any need for laws about it.

joe | September 19, 2007, 1:59pm | #

Episiarch,

Believe it or not, there are actually other things one can discuss than libertarians' property fetish.

Jennifer,

Take another crack at that, because "the state telling people..." was not the subject of the statement you are alluding to. WTF? Didn't you used to be an English teacher?

Episiarch | September 19, 2007, 2:00pm | #

Is this part where I cross myself three times, or kneel?

I...don't know... is this what you usually do when a new regulation or ban is passed?


WINNAR

Jennifer | September 19, 2007, 2:04pm | #

As Joe alluded to, many bar and restaurant owners would like to go smoke-free, but only as long as others do so as not to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage.

As a business owner I would like to save money by not paying for air conditioning in the hot summer months, but if other businesses use air conditioning that will put me at a competitive disadvantage. Maybe I should lobby for an air-conditioning ban? I'll say it's "for the children" or "for the environment," because that sounds much better than admitting it's "for me."

capelza | September 19, 2007, 2:04pm | #

"CoveAxe | September 19, 2007, 1:54pm | #

I was thinking about the airline industry's whining to CONgress for a blanket ban on in-flight smoking because smoking is icky and it messes up the aircraft's air filtration systems.

Why do they need Congress to make a law? Can't they just ban it on their flights regardless?"

Because if they had banned it as a business practice, then a competing airline willing to take the risk would have offered "Smoking flights" taking away business from those that had banned it.

By forcing Congress to enact the law they 1) can blame Congress and 2) force ALL airlines to do the same, taking away any competitive edge in allowing smoking flights. That's what I think anyway.

joe | September 19, 2007, 2:08pm | #

fyodor,

I've heard the argument enough that I think it's central to statist thought that experts who have more data than common folk are better at making decisions for them than they are for themselves.

I'm sure you believe you have. In fact, you probably think you are hearing one right now, on this thread. Because the dispute was carefully laid out by Sullum to make you think that.

But, you see, no one is proposing that smoking should be banned in order to boost restaurant owners' profitability. Smoking bans are proposed as a way of reducing death and illness. A counter-argument has been made that these bans impose an economic cost to the businesses. That is, as a matter of fact, something that can be measured, and which people's guts can be wrong about.

The distinction here isn't between experts vs. laymen, but between a more rigorous and less rigorous process for coming to a conclusion. I'm sure an individual restaurant owner will know, better than a statistician, what the effect of going non-smoking was on his individual business. That doesn't make him better at determining what the effect of the ban on the entire industry was.

Pauline Kael knew far better than those elitist bureaucrats at Gallup how the people she knew voted. Where she went wrong was in trying to draw a broad conclusion based on her own experience. The Gallup people actually did know better than she how the election would turn out.

J sub D | September 19, 2007, 2:11pm | #

Paul, J sub D,

Is this part where I cross myself three times, or kneel?


We are aware of your general disrespect for property rights, joe. Was your Mother frightened by a landlord when she was carrying you? ;-)

Jimmy Smith | September 19, 2007, 2:12pm | #

Yeah, sorta been thinkin' 'bout openin' up a place where folks can come and smoke, discreetly, 'course. Maybe even allow drinkin'. Since I won't be selling anything it can't be against the law, can it? No minors (or miners) allowed, not even with their parents. How long can I stay in business, I'm wonderin'.

CoveAxe | September 19, 2007, 2:13pm | #

capelza:

I would think the airlines would do it anyway because there really is a cost advantage, and most people do not check whether a flight is smoking or non. I'd wager that most would prefer a non-smoking flight, especially if the tickets were cheaper.

mk | September 19, 2007, 2:13pm | #

It also can't be ignored that this cultural change has occured largely after the widespread experience of restaurant owners and customers with nonsmoking sections and complete bans.

True on the first, but you would have to do a lot of intellectual gymnastics to convince me of the second (and the second is what we are really talking about here).

The reason why the cultural change has happened for restaurant owners is that more and more people who came into their restaurants said "non-smoking" when the hostess asked them where they wanted to sit. It really is just that simple.
In a smoking ban the opportunity to respond to the customer's wishes is removed.

Paul | September 19, 2007, 2:17pm | #

But, you see, no one is proposing that smoking should be banned in order to boost restaurant owners' profitability.

No, they're not. What this thread refers to is a sort of ex post facto result of "improved profitability". The idea being that the ban is good anyway because it'll have a positive impact on your bottom line.

It's like a city banning the use of backyard grills and then responding to the outcry by pointing out how much money the homeowners will save by not buying charcoal and lighter fluid.

KingHarvest | September 19, 2007, 2:20pm | #

Two Anecdotes (or) Why Smoking Bans Are Fallacious

I lived in Richmond, VA for a time, known for recently housing Philip Morris' corporate HQ after a Manhattan smoking ban told PM's president he couldn't smoke in his high-rise office. I also worked for Philip Morris for a time. This is a mightily tobacco-friendly state, if I haven't made my point.

Richmond was rife with amazing restaurants, and the city has no smoking ban. My wife and I lived within walking distance of an amazingly tasty establishment that allowed smoking and was always packed. Then the restaurant polled its patrons on the topic of a possible smoking ban. The patrons voted in favor of a smoking ban, and it was enacted. The restaurant remained tasty and incessantly busy.

Point: Restaurants can self-regulate

Then I moved to Colorado in May 2006. Much to my chagrin, the state was excited about the upcoming July 1, 2006 smoking ban. ugh. The town has a cute, quaint, Old-West downtown with a number of fine restaurants (some independently non-smoking) interspersed with biker bars. Come July 1, like fyodor, we witnessed the proliferation of outside smoking patios. In a small, quaint downtown, this amounts to assaulting the bypassing pedestrians and strollers with previously-sequestered-in-the-bars tobacco smoke.

Point: The assumption that people don't have the capacity to choose a (non-)smoking environment dumps that habit into the laps of passersby, who may very well have chosen not to enter said smoky bars.

Paul | September 19, 2007, 2:21pm | #

The reason why the cultural change has happened for restaurant owners is that more and more people who came into their restaurants said "non-smoking" when the hostess asked them where they wanted to sit. It really is just that simple.
In a smoking ban the opportunity to respond to the customer's wishes is removed.


Touche, mk. When I was a kid in like the seventies I remember my parents always asking for non-smoking when going out to eat. Smoking bans are quite literally an attempt to hammer in a nail that was already flush a long, long time ago.

Eh well, it's all about posturing and a further continuation of the drug war. You guys do realize that you lose just a little bit more ground on the drug war everytime a smoking ban is passed, right?

JasonC | September 19, 2007, 2:22pm | #

Stop the lies, joe! Pauline Kael didn't say that Nixon quote.
http://begonias.typepad.com/srubio/2004/12/kaelnixon_updat.html

capelza | September 19, 2007, 2:28pm | #

"CoveAxe | September 19, 2007, 2:13pm | #

capelza:

I would think the airlines would do it anyway because there really is a cost advantage, and most people do not check whether a flight is smoking or non. I'd wager that most would prefer a non-smoking flight, especially if the tickets were cheaper."

I don't know...if someone started the "Smoker's Airliine" there are still enough people around who'd pay for the privilige. Especially on long flights. 25% of Americans fess up to smoking (they all must live here in the PNW because the percentage is higher than that in the industries I work in (commercial fishing..at least half the people smoke..I kid you not). Paying extra for the opportunity to light one up on the long flight to Alaska and then the even more nerve wracking puddle jumps out to the hinterland where the fleets are...yeah.

Truth be told, some of the very small planes, the pilot is stil the first to light up...but that's the very small planes.

robc | September 19, 2007, 2:31pm | #

I'm sure an individual restaurant owner will know, better than a statistician, what the effect of going non-smoking was on his individual business.

And thats all that matters, not the affect on the whole industry. When 1 persons property is harmed, it is harmed, even if everyone else's is helped.

It isnt the job of government to protect us from voluntary harm, such as second hand smoke in restaurants/bars. Therefore, the government shouldnt be harming ANY business in order to prevent it.

There are some cases where government action is necessary and if they happen to harm a business then, so be it. But to harm an individual business for no legimate reason is morally wrong.

Which category do I get +1 pt in? Is that the harm category or maybe loyalty?

Rex Rhino | September 19, 2007, 2:39pm | #

The old Mexican standoff dynamic is another. Back when I was working the field of Chinese Food Transportation, Tony told me that he'd love to stop buying MSG - it cost over $100 for a 5 gallon bucket - but he afraid to, because if he did and his competition didn't, he'd lose out.
The problem here was that the government did not ban Chinese food. Everyone knows that pizza chains make way more money on delivery than Chinese resteraunts... and more revenue means more taxes, and more taxes mean better schools!

Everyone knows that if we had to vote on the one style of food that we prefer, pizza and burgers would come out way ahead of all other forms of cuisine. It is only democratic that we give the people what they want (burgers and pizzas)and help our schools at the same time, by banning Chinese food.

You think that you have some sort of right to choose Chinese food, joe? Tell that to the kid who can't learn math because he doesn't have a textbook! All because you think that your personal tastes and preferences have priority over the ability of the state to generate revenue for education! The right of every child to a decent, state-funded education is is greater than your right to choose Fuqi Feipian over burgers, joe.

I am starting a group called "Citizens for the Survival of Public Education", and it is our goal to make sure that Chinese food is banned, all around the country. No longer can we have allow outdated concepts like property rights and personal taste to lead the assault on our children.

You are either with us or against us joe! But remember, we are not about to let 300 million innocent children in America down!

StupendousMan | September 19, 2007, 2:46pm | #

"...this amounts to assaulting the bypassing pedestrians and strollers with previously-sequestered-in-the-bars tobacco smoke..."

Being "assaulted" by diesel exhaust is OK?
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/dieselexhaust/index.html

Strollers? Come on. I love the smell of baby crap. Especially when I'm out eating.

joe | September 19, 2007, 2:50pm | #

Paul,

I can only speak for myself. In my opinion, demonstrating that smoking bans increase, or at least, do not threaten, restaurant profitability doesn't make the case for smoking bans. What it does is rebut one of the arguments offered in opposition to smoking bans - namely, that they will hurt restaurant profitability.

mk,

There is somewhat of a chicken/egg effect. As more people have the opportunity to realize that they like eating in restaurants with clean air, more restaurants will accommodate them. As more restaurants go non-smoking, more people will realize that they like it better that way. But that doesn't mean that an intervention wasn't necessary to set that virtuous cycle in motion.

It's comparable to segregation. If the laws forbidding racial discrimination in the renting of hotel rooms were overturned tomorrow, very few of the hotels in the South would deny rooms to black customers - far fewer than were actually denying rooms to those customers in the 30s. And yet, can there be any doubt that the actual experience of watching hotels operate without segregating rooms, and operate successfully, has played a role in this cultural change?

joe | September 19, 2007, 2:52pm | #

robc,

And thats all that matters, not the affect on the whole industry. When 1 persons property is harmed, it is harmed, even if everyone else's is helped.

Matter, in what sense?

And then you explain, matters, when you assume the political/ideological beliefs that follow. True enough.

But you see, many people have made the case against smoking bans on aggregate restaurant profitability grounds.

Rex Rhino | September 19, 2007, 2:52pm | #

Smoking bans are proposed as a way of reducing death and illness.
And the matter of fact is that banning second hand smoke in resteraunts and bars has virtually no effect on public health. There has not been a single reputable study linking smoking bans with reduced mortality to smoking related illness. Not one.

Smoking bans are passed because smoking is icky, and more people dislike smoking than like it, and in the absence of property rights 60% of the people can force their lifestyle choice on the other 40%.

That is, of course, ignoring the fact that I am exposed to way more cigarette smoke post-smoking-ban, as I walk through toxic clouds of outdoor smoke more often than I would go to the bar... and I often think back fondly to my smoke-free days before the government banned indoor smoking.

joe | September 19, 2007, 2:53pm | #

Rex,

Yawn.

JBinMO | September 19, 2007, 2:53pm | #

The smoking ban works for me. My wife and I are smokers in a town that has adopted a smoking ban. We used to go out literally three times a week, now maybe twice a month. We are saving a ton. Not only that, but as creatures of habit, when we do quit again, we probably wont start going out.

grumpy realist | September 19, 2007, 2:54pm | #

I'm still amazed at the change in social attitudes about smoking. I remember when one would go into a coffee shop and smokers would think nothing of sitting down in the "no smoking " section and lighting up. Happened far too many times for me. .One reason why I still carry a grudge against smokers.

I think a lot of the bans-with-teeth occurred because people (either the restaurant owners or the clientele) just got fed up with dealing with smokers who didn't obey the posted rules. Also because more and more people were asking for non-smoking sections, and also because in a lot of cases the "smoking/no smoking" was badly designed and even if you were in the non-smoking area you still got wafts of second-hand smoke. For people with allergies to tobacco smoke, sitting in a supposed "non-smoking area" may still expose them to far too much smoke.

Have heard that one of the main reasons for banning smoking on airlines is the tendency of smoke particles to be a good disease vector if you're in a closed environment for hours on end. When airlines started looking at the amount of exposure to bacteria/viruses/whatever carried on smoke particles, especially on international flights, they started getting terrified about liability issues. (One of the reasons why second-hand smoke has far more problems than simple carcinogenic aspects.)

Nephilium | September 19, 2007, 2:56pm | #

Rex Rhino: Don't forget us throngs of smokers that are done being polite. I used to be a polite smoker, go as far away from people, wait for people to finish eating... etc... But once you (collective, not specific) decided to tell me that the bars I go to, and the restaurants I eat in can't let me smoke... so I should go stand outside in a Cleveland winter... the polite smoker goes away, to be replaced by the pissed off smoker.

Nephilium

fyodor | September 19, 2007, 2:57pm | #

joe,

Neither Sullum nor I have claimed that the initial rationale for smoking bans was economic. However, the claim has been made that bans have helped affected restaurant businesses. So the question arises, in lieu of studying all the (lies, damn lies and) statistics myself or finding some mythically impartial person to do so for me, and if restaurateurs continue to oppose such bans, do I believe the restaurateurs that such bans are against their interests or the ban supporters (and Glantz is not the only one) who say they are not? I go with the restaurateurs. And I have plenty good REASON to, not some damn "gut" reaction!!

joe | September 19, 2007, 2:57pm | #

Do environmental activists know more about the autmobile manufacturing industry than automobile manufacturers?

Lee Iacocca, certianly no intellectual slouch, testified before Congress that banning leaded gasoline would result in the elimination of the automobile manufacturing industry by 1975. The environmental activists and the majority of Congressmen who passed the ban disagreed with him.

Lee Iacocca was wrong. Famously wrong. Hilariously wrong. Historically wrong.

On this particular question, the activists knew better than the businessowners.

If your political beliefs tell you that businessowners must always be correct - if they cannot account for the adherence to convential wisdom and habit of groupthink that are constants in the human experience - then you need to update your political beliefs.

Jennifer | September 19, 2007, 2:58pm | #

For people with allergies to tobacco smoke, sitting in a supposed "non-smoking area" may still expose them to far too much smoke.

Oooh, I can't WAIT until that logic is applied to bans intended to protect people with peanut allergies.

StupendousMan | September 19, 2007, 2:59pm | #

"...smoke particles to be a good disease vector..."

What? The smoke results from tobacco burning at ~495 deg. I don't think any viruses or bacteria are hitching a ride. Plus- how many pathogens could actually attach to the nano-particles?

Rex Rhino | September 19, 2007, 3:00pm | #

It's comparable to segregation. If the laws forbidding racial discrimination in the renting of hotel rooms were overturned tomorrow, very few of the hotels in the South would deny rooms to black customers - far fewer than were actually denying rooms to those customers in the 30s. And yet, can there be any doubt that the actual experience of watching hotels operate without segregating rooms, and operate successfully, has played a role in this cultural change?
joe, you are forgetting that in the 1930s the government had to pass Jim-Crow laws to explicitly segregate hotel rooms, because some people felt "uncomfortable" around blacks, similiar to how some people feel "uncomfortable" around smoking, and wanted the government to do something about it.

Smoking bans are more comparible to Jim Crow laws.

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:00pm | #

fyodor,

That's a reasonable starting point. A rule of thumb, as it were.

But it is not a refutation of the data, once it comes in.

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:01pm | #

Rex,

The government had to pass those laws to stop a small minority of businessmen from breaking with the community's values, including those of their much-more-numerous competitiors.

You can't really be claiming that attitudes about segregation haven't changed over the past 50 years, can you?

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:02pm | #

some people felt "uncomfortable" around blacks, similiar to how some people feel "uncomfortable" around smoking

Bwah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah hah!

You should carve that on your tombstone, Rex.

No, no...I'm laughing WITH you.

Jennifer | September 19, 2007, 3:04pm | #

The government had to pass those laws to stop a small minority of businessmen from breaking with the community's values, including those of their much-more-numerous competitiors.

That comment was posted by a troll pretending to be Joe, right? I can't believe that the real Joe--even on days like this one where he's in a pissy mood--would seriously post a comment defending Jim Crow laws on the grounds that the racist majority of the time had to be protected from business owners that wanted to serve an integrated clientele in defiance of community values.

Brian24 | September 19, 2007, 3:04pm | #

As a New Yorker who was against the smoking ban, the most interesting outcome I've seen is how happy everyone seems to be with it. If I may get all anecdotal for a second, I spend a LOT of time in bars, and I have yet to meet anybody, smoker or non-, who isn't happy about the ban. I haven't seen any evidence of any bars or restaurants going out of business as a result either.

One thing I'm surprised about is that the dry cleaners didn't launch a concerted opposition to the ban. My cleaning bills have probably been cut in half now that I don't have to clean every item of clothing I'm wearing after one night out.

Rex Rhino | September 19, 2007, 3:05pm | #

Yawn.
Yeah, I know you find the complete lack of scientific evidence to back up smoking bans to be boring joe. It is so much more exciting to micromanage people's lifestyles based on irrational fear.

Episiarch | September 19, 2007, 3:06pm | #

People, why continue to argue with joe? He knows better than you what is good for you. Kneel to his superior knowledge and wisdom, and your life will become a paradise, free from pain, worry, or secondhand smoke--and freedom.

Rex Rhino | September 19, 2007, 3:09pm | #

The government had to pass those laws to stop a small minority of businessmen from breaking with the community's values, including those of their much-more-numerous competitiors.
Is that a troll pretending to be joe? I want to be sure before I jump on him for supporting Jim Crow.

Episiarch | September 19, 2007, 3:11pm | #

Is that a troll pretending to be joe?

Nope. joe's statism just showed its true totalitarian impulses, that's all. He's a bit excited and pissy, and posting fast.

joe, I couldn't have asked for a better example of the true you.

ed | September 19, 2007, 3:11pm | #

What it really boils down to is whether Americans are prepared to give up their rights (others' rights as well) for a perceived health benefit. In this case, the biggest gang has seen fit to deny property rights to the smaller gang. What the bigger gang fails to realize is that they have added another brick to the foundation of the nanny state. They haven't the philosophical or historical training to project the long-term implications of this surrender. Most Americans are intellectually agnostic. They think short-term. They are their own worst enemies, and they are dragging the rest of us down with them.

econ2econ | September 19, 2007, 3:11pm | #

JB, I'm with you. I am firmly against smoking bans on the same principals as most of you: it encroaches on the rights of a private business to choose how to run itself. However, when the Chicago smoking ban finally goes into effect 1/1/08, it will likely be a big help to our budget and our habit. It will be much easier to quit, and if we don't, we'll be a lot less likely to go to or linger at the bar or restaurant.

Brian24 | September 19, 2007, 3:14pm | #

Jennifer/Rex,

Get a grip. You're blatantly misreading Joe's statement. He pretty obviously means that businesses that were not segregated were the exception, not the rule, and that the racist governments "had to" pass those laws to bring them in line. He's countering Rex's argument that, prior to Jim Crow, there was no segregation.

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:17pm | #

Jennifer,

It's no wonder the school fired you.

You can't read worth a shit.

Defending? Take a Prozac.

Jennifer Emick | September 19, 2007, 3:17pm | #

Kinda poor logic in that. The price increase may be due tyo actual increased costs, or simply perception of the owners.

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:18pm | #

Rex,

Any time you want to talk about scientific evidence, as opposed to the Professin of Faith I was yawning at, go right ahead.

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:18pm | #

Episiarch,

You make Jennifer look like Einstein.

U too don't reed so gud.

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:20pm | #

For people without arguments or evidence, the chance to shout racist is, as the journalists say, "too good to check."

Episiarch | September 19, 2007, 3:21pm | #

He pretty obviously means that businesses that were not segregated were the exception, not the rule, and that the racist governments "had to" pass those laws to bring them in line.

Irrelevant. joe is OK with the goverment disregarding property rights, and has irrefutably shown that on this thread.

When it was done as Jim Crow, it was also disregarding property rights.

Even if joe was not defending Jim Crow, he still supports the government being able to disregard property rights--and that includes when it does something like Jim Crow.

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:24pm | #

Even if joe was not defending Jom Crow...

How about you grow a pair and admit you were wong?

And then apologize.

Episiarch | September 19, 2007, 3:24pm | #

Backpeddle a little harder, joe. You support government disregard for property rights. By your own example of Jim Crow we see some of the horrible consequences of this disregard.

Still support government disregard of property rights, joe? Or just when the "right people" are in charge?

fyodor | September 19, 2007, 3:25pm | #

Do environmental activists know more about the autmobile manufacturing industry than automobile manufacturers?

Lee Iacocca, certianly no intellectual slouch, testified before Congress that banning leaded gasoline would result in the elimination of the automobile manufacturing industry by 1975.


Oh gad, apples and organges, totally irrelevant. Who knows if Iacocca meant that or was just posturing? Now, I don't doubt that banning lead was bad for the auto industry (do you?), but it was in Iacocca's interest to exaggerate how bad. Restaurateurs may do the same thing, but so what. The question before us, as I see it, is whether anti-smoking activists can be trusted to interpret the data accurately when they say smoking bans help restaurants' bottom lines while restaurateurs continue to oppose smoking bans. Y'know, joe, once in a while a rolled pair of dice turns up a 12, but it's still a lot smarter to bet on 1 through 11 cause that's what usually happens.

Brian24 | September 19, 2007, 3:25pm | #

Irrelevant.

Well, it's pretty relevant to the accusation that joe is defending Jim Crow, which was the subject of my post and a few previous posts.

Sheesh. Read.

Sparky | September 19, 2007, 3:26pm | #

"...and admit you were wong?"

Hey! Joe's racist against Asians too!

Jennifer | September 19, 2007, 3:29pm | #

Wow, Joe. You really are in a bad mood today. Maybe you'll convince more people here to see things your way if you ramp up the insults a notch? So far, skimming over this thread, I can only see them directed at me, XY and Episiarch. Don't limit yourself like that.

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:30pm | #

Apologize.

Dan T. | September 19, 2007, 3:30pm | #

Really, folks, smoking bans are a public health issue and have nothing to do with the right to own property. So enough about "disregard for property rights", especially when that property is opened up by the owner for the public.

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:33pm | #

Well, fyodor, at least you've gotten to the point of admitting that it is possible for businessowners to wrongly predict the consequences of government actions that effect their businesses. That's a good start.

There seem to be quite a few people who think it is literally impossible.

Jennifer,

Apologize. BTW, that's two you owe me, as I recall.

I'm in a fine mood, today, thanks for asking. I just don't suffer fools gladly on any day.

x,y | September 19, 2007, 3:34pm | #

Why would I possibly be interested in replying to you, bitch?

Just in case anyone is wondering, this is what a losing argument looks like.

Archie Leach | September 19, 2007, 3:35pm | #

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:30pm | #
Apologize.
I apologise unreservedly.

(please don't dangle me out the window any more)

Rex Rhino | September 19, 2007, 3:36pm | #

Get a grip. You're blatantly misreading Joe's statement. He pretty obviously means that businesses that were not segregated were the exception, not the rule, and that the racist governments "had to" pass those laws to bring them in line. He's countering Rex's argument that, prior to Jim Crow, there was no segregation.
I never said that prior to Jim Crow that there was no segregation. I said the same philosophy of protecting people from what they consider to be "bad" applies.

Both smoking bans and Jim Crow are laws where passed by people to "protect" themselves from the lifestyle choices of other people which where never forced on anyone.

Although, I have heard people talk about "allowing smoking attracts a bad element", to not think there might not be a racial or class element to smoking bans. Since smoking is more popular in low income populations, and certain immigrant populations, it isn't unreasonable to think smoking bans often have an sinister unspoken goal of segregating certain groups of people. A slightly more subtle version of things like bans on baggy pants. So in reality Smoking Bans and Jim Crow might not be all that different.

ed | September 19, 2007, 3:36pm | #

smoking bans are a public health issue and have nothing to do with the right to own property

Fuck off, Dan.
Really.
The adults are having a discussion.

x,y | September 19, 2007, 3:37pm | #

fyodor,

Perhaps you can show me where I attacked joe personally? I said his post was "worthless" because it didn't address liberty or private property issues. Hardly ad hominem.

Jennifer | September 19, 2007, 3:37pm | #

Just in case anyone is wondering, this is what a losing argument looks like.

Be nice, XY. If I owe Joe an apology, you do too. Tell him you're sorry for provoking him into calling you a bitch.

Otto | September 19, 2007, 3:40pm | #

[meditating using the ancient tantric method that the monks used before going to battle. gotta focus that aggression]

Dan T. | September 19, 2007, 3:40pm | #

The adults are having a discussion.

Yes, you guys are so adult with your nonstop whining about not being able to do what you want at all times, others be damned.

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:41pm | #

Rex,

One might consider it relevant that the presence of black people does not put irritants and materials linked to fatal diseases in the air breathed by those in their presence.

It might feel good to speculate darkly on the motives of people who disagree with you, but this really isn't a mystery. People oppose smoking because it is physically sickening.

Episiarch | September 19, 2007, 3:41pm | #

Apologize.

Hee. You are the most amusing when you have backed yourself into a corner.

Maybe you can explain to everyone why it's fine to disregard property rights, even though that can result in Jim Crow laws*.

* brought up by...you

Rex Rhino | September 19, 2007, 3:41pm | #

For people without arguments or evidence, the chance to shout racist is, as the journalists say, "too good to check."
joe, you were the one who brought up the race card first. You tried to imply that banning smoking is like banning segregation, and so that if you don't support smoking bans you must be racist. We turned that arguement right back on you, totally schooled you, and now you want to cry "no fair".

Chaez n waihn | September 19, 2007, 3:41pm | #

Mooooom!!!!! I wanna go to the free market. NOW! C'mon. mom...

arggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:43pm | #

x,y,

No, avoiding answering questions, and sucking up to other commenters, is what losing an argument looks like.

Hi, Jennifer!

joe | September 19, 2007, 3:44pm | #

Episiarch,

Maybe you can explain why it is fine to drive an automobile, even though it might result in running over a pedestrian.

You know what? Don't bother. I'm don't think the people who need to be walked through such an exercise would be able to follow the logic, no matter how much you break it down.

x,y | September 19, 2007, 3:45pm | #

I want to believe this is isn't a troll joe imposter, but some of the posts are very joe-like. Just in a bad mood today?

Jennifer | September 19, 2007, 3:45pm | #

No, avoiding answering questions, and sucking up to other commenters, is what losing an argument looks like.

But saying "Why would I be interested in replying to you, bitch?" looks like "avoiding answering questions," which in turn is what losing an argument looks like, right?