American Voters Prefer Muslims to Atheists
Ronald Bailey | September 10, 2007, 3:45pm
A new poll of American voters reports that atheists are less popular than Muslims. To wit:
Sixty-one percent of those questioned said they would be less likely to support a presidential candidate who did not believe in God. Forty-five percent said the same for a Muslim contender.
Only 5 percent or fewer said they would be likelier to support candidates who were atheists.
It appears that for most American voters, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and Christopher Hitchens can just go to Hell.
Whole article here.
Mad Max | September 11, 2007, 6:59am | #
TheCurseOfLono,
When Trotsky (not even the worst of the commies) said "We must put an end once and for all to the papist-Quaker babble about the sanctity of human life" (http://www.salon.com/march97/sneaks/sneak970325.html), why did he single out two *theistic* groups for special scorn, if atheism was just an incidental add-on to Marxism?
Why did the Soviet Union propagandize incessantly against religious "superstition," create Museums of Atheism and promote "scientific atheism," if atheism was just an incidental part of their ruling ideology?
Here's something I found on Google - a 1913 article by Lenin describing the "three sources of Marxism."
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm
Guess which source of Marxism Lenin cites *first*?
"The philosophy of Marxism is materialism. Throughout the modern history of Europe, and especially at the end of the eighteenth century in France, where a resolute struggle was conducted against every kind of medieval rubbish, against serfdom in institutions and ideas, materialism has proved to be the only philosophy that is consistent, true to all the teachings of natural science and hostile to superstition, cant and so forth. The enemies of democracy have, therefore, always exerted all their efforts to “refute”, under mine and defame materialism, and have advocated various forms of philosophical idealism, which always, in one way or another, amounts to the defence or support of religion."
Not all atheists are Marxists, but these Marxist murderers we have been discussing were certainly atheists as a key component of their ideology, and not people who *just happen* to be atheists.
Mad Max | September 11, 2007, 7:12am | #
Some more wisdom from Comrade Lenin. Gosh, he sure seemed to focus a lot of attention to the minor, "incidental" doctrine of atheism, didn't he?
http://www.marxist.com/classics/lenin/militant_materialism.html
"On The significance of Militant Materialism
"by V. I. Lenin
". . . It will be seen from the above that a journal that sets out to be a militant materialist organ must be primarily a militant organ, in the sense of unflinchingly exposing and indicting all modern 'graduated flunkeys of clericalism', irrespective of whether they act as representatives of official science or as free lances calling themselves 'democratic Left or ideologically socialist' publicist.
"In the second place, such a journal must be a militant atheist organ. We have departments, or at least state institutions, which are in charge of this work.But the work is being carried on with extreme apathy and very unsatisfactorily, and is apparently suffering from the general conditions of our truly Russian (even though Soviet) bureaucratic ways. It is therefore highly essential that in addition to the work of these state institutions, and in order to improve and infuse life into that work, a journal, which sets out to propagandise militant materialism, must carry on untiring atheist propaganda and an untiring atheist fight.The literature on the subject in all languages should be carefully followed and everything at all valuable in this sphere should be translated, or at least reviewed.
"Engels long ago advised the contemporary leaders of the proletariat to translate the militant atheist literature of the late eighteenth century for mass distribution among the people. We have not done this up to the present, to our shame be it said (this is one of the numerous proofs that it is much easier to seize power in a revolutionary epoch than to know how to use this power properly).Our apathy, inactivity and incompetence are sometimes excused on all sorts of 'lofty' grounds, as, for example, that the old atheist literature of the eighteenth century is antiquated, unscientific, naïve, etc. There is nothing worse than such pseudo-scientific sophistry, which serves as a screen either for pedantry or for a complete misunderstanding of Marxism. There is, of course, much that is unscientific and naïve in the atheist writings of the eighteenth-century revolutionaries. But nobody prevents the publishers of these writings from abridging them and providing them with brief postscripts pointing out the progress made by mankind in the scientific criticism of religions since the end of the eighteenth century, mentioning the latest writings on the subject, and so forth.It would be the biggest and most grievous mistake a Marxist could make to think that the millions of the people (especially the peasants and artisans), who have been condemned by all modern society to darkness, ignorance and superstition, can extricate themselves from this darkness only along the straight line of Marxist education. These masses should be supplied with the most varied atheist propaganda material, they should be made familiar with facts from the most diverse spheres of life, they should be approached in every possible way, so to interest them, rouse them from their religious torpor, stir them from the most varied angles and by the most varied methods, and so forth.
"The keen, vivacious and talented writings of the old eighteenth-century atheists wittily and openly attacked the prevailing clericalism and will very often prove a thousand times more suitable for arousing people from their religious torpor than the dull and dry paraphrases of Marxism, almost completely unillustrated by skilfully selected facts, which predominate in our literature and which (it is no use hiding the fact) frequently distort Marxism. We have translations of all the major works of Marx and Engels. There are absolutely no grounds for fearing that the old atheism and old materialism will remain unsupplemented by the corrections introduced by Marx and Engels. The most important thing - and it is this that is most frequently overlooked by those of our Communists who are supposedly Marxists, but who in fact mutilate Marxism - is to know how to awaken in the still undeveloped masses an intelligent attitude towards religious questions and an intelligent criticism of religions."
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn | September 11, 2007, 9:00am | #
From The Gulag Archipeligo by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:
In the spring of 1922 the Extraordinary Commission for Struggle Against Counterrevolution, Sabotage, and Speculation, the Cheka, recently renamed the GPU, decided to intervene in church affairs. It was called on to carry out a “church revolution”-to remove the existing leadership and replace it with one which would have only one ear turned to heaven and the other to the Lubyanka....For this reason, the Patriarch Tikhon was arrested and two resounding trials were held, followed by the execution in Moscow of those who had publicized the Patriach’s appeal and, in Petrograd, of the Metropolitan Veniamin, who had attempted to hinder the
transfer of ecclesiastical power...Here and there in the provincial centers and even further down the administrative districts, metropolitans, and bishops were arrested and, as always, in the wake of the big fish, followed shoals of smaller fry: archpriests, monks, and deacons. These arrests were not even reported in the press. Men of religion were an inevitable part of every annual “catch”, and their silver locks gleamed in every cell and in every prisoner transport en route to the Solovetsky Islands.
From the early twenties on, arrests were also made among groups of theosophists, mystics, spiritualist. Also, religious societies and philosophers of the Berdyaayev circle. The so-called “Eastern Catholics”-followers of Vladimir Solovyev-were arrested and destroyed in passing, as was the group of A.I. Abriksova, And, of course, ordinary Roman Catholics-Polish Catholic priests, etc.-were arrested, too, as part of the normal course of events.
However, the root destruction of religion in the country, which throughout the twenties and thirties was one of the most important goals of GPU_NKVD, could be realized only by mass arrests of Orthodox believers. Monks and nuns, whose black habits had been a distinctive feature of Old Russian life, were intensively rounded up on every hand, placed under arrest, and sent into exile. They arrested and sentenced active laymen. The circles kept getting bigger, as they raked in ordinary believers as well, old people, and particularly women, who were the most stubborn believers of all and who, for many long years to come, would be called “nuns” in transit prisons and in camps.
True, they were supposedly being arrested and tried not for their actual faith but for openly declaring their convictions and for bringing up their children in the same spirit. As Tanya Khodokevich wrote:
You can pray freely
But just so God alone can hear.
(She received a ten-year sentence for these verses.)
Mad Max | September 11, 2007, 5:02pm | #
Solzhen,
Thank you for the excerpts about the persecution of believers. Ask the persecuted believers whether the atheism of the communists was irrelevant and unimportant!
CurseOf and Lamar,
I maintain that Marxism is an ideology which is inseparable from atheism. Lenin (in the quotation I gave) backs me up on this when he gives materialism as the *first* of three sources of Marxism. Materialism is an atheist doctrine involving the rejection not only of traditional theistic religions, but any form of "philosophical idealism" which posits man as some kind of spiritual being.
So Marxism is a murderous ideology, and a key source of Marxism is the atheist philosophy of materialism. To enforce their ideology, the commies not only propagandized in favor of atheism but persecuted and murdered believers.
Yet we are told that this makes no difference. Some say that the commies aren't *real* atheists because true atheists are rational and never commit mass murder. Others say that atheism was not an intrinsic part of the murderous ideology the commies were enforcing in their jurisdictions.
For the “real atheist” argument, let’s go to an example (by Anthony Flew) cited in the atheist Web site I linked to above (http://atheism.about.com/od/logicalfallacies/a/notruescotsman.htm):
“Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Press and Journal and seeing an article about how the ‘Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again’. Hamish is shocked and declares that “No Scotsman would do such a thing”. The next day he sits down to read his Press and Journal again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, ‘No true Scotsman would do such a thing’.”
Replace Hamish with certain H&R posters, replace ‘Brighton Sex Maniac’ with Osama or David Koresh, replace “Scotsman” with “atheist,” replace “an Aberdeen man” with “atheist communists” . . . well, you get the idea.
For the “atheism was irrelevant to the murderousness of the commie ideology” argument, I simply don’t see it. It’s not just a hobby, like stamp-collecting, which commie leaders amused themselves with in the intervals between murders. Atheism is one of the things at the core of the Marxist ideology, and the Marxist ideology was the basis of millions of murders.
TheCurseOfLono | September 11, 2007, 11:22pm | #
Wow, you're really scraping the the bottle of the barrel with "lil" Kim.
hmmm.... just browsing through the communist manifesto, cannot find the words atheism there. Or materialism for that matter
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/61/61.txt
I also just took a good look at
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm
The vast majority is considered with class struggle, economics, how bad capitalism is, etc. This kind of terminology dominates. I did not come across "atheism" once. It makes me look back at Solzhenitsyn's comment about economics being incidental and it makes me laugh.
Here's another by Lenin called "What is to be done." One of his major works apparently.
http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/index.htm
I did a word check on it. "Atheism" nor "atheistic" appear in over 130 pages. Once.
As for your assertion that without atheism marxists would be muddle-headed Anglicans and liberation theologians, I think the example of Voltaire should suffice. And while materialism is certainly a pillar of marxism, atheism is not a pillar of marxism because it is used as an adjective to describe materialism. I somehow doubt their atheism was central to their collectivization plans
Well anyway, I've decided this long debate has taken up too much of my time, so that's that. I'll leave you with a quote attributed to Voltaire.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities."
Mad Max | September 12, 2007, 12:24am | #
From Nicolai Bukharin and Evgenii Preobrazhensky, *The ABC of Communism,"
http://marxists.org/archive/bukharin/works/1920/abc/11.htm
"Chapter 11: Communism and Religion
"§ 89. Why religion and communism are incompatible
"'Religion is the opium of the people,' said Karl Marx. It is the task of the Communist Party to make this truth comprehensible to the widest possible circles of the labouring masses. It is the task of the party to impress firmly upon the minds of the workers, even upon the most backward, that religion has been in the past and still is today one of the most powerful means at the disposal of the oppressors for the maintenance of inequality, exploitation, and slavish obedience on the part of the toilers. . . .
"Every communist must regard social phenomena (the relationships between human beings, revolutions, wars, etc.) as processes which occur in accordance with definite laws. The laws of social development have been fully established by scientific communism on the basis of the theory of historical materialism which we owe to our great teachers Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. This theory explains that social development is not brought about by any kind of supernatural forces. Nay more. The same theory has demonstrated that the very idea of God and of supernatural powers arises at a definite stage in human history, and at another definite stage begins to disappear as a childish notion which finds no confirmation in practical life and in the struggle between man and nature. But it is profitable to the predatory class to maintain the ignorance of the people and to maintain the people's childish belief in miracles (the key to the riddle really lies in the exploiters' pockets), and this is why religious prejudices are so tenacious, and why they confuse the minds even of persons who are in other respects able. . . .
"In practice, no less than in theory, communism is incompatible with religious faith. The tactic of the Communist Party prescribes for the members of the party definite lines of conduct. The moral code of every religion in like manner prescribes for the faithful some definite line of conduct. For example, the Christian code runs: 'Whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.' In most cases there is an irreconcilable conflict between the principles of communist tactics and the commandments of religion. A communist who rejects the commandments of religion and acts in accordance with the directions of the party, ceases to be one of the faithful. On the other hand, one who, while calling himself a communist, continues to cling to his religious faith, one who in the name of religious commandments infringes the prescriptions of the party, ceases thereby to be a communist. . . .
"§ 90. Separation of the church from the state
The Christian catechism teaches that the church is a society of the faithful who are united by a common creed, by the sacraments, etc. For the communist, the church is a society of persons who are united by definite sources of income at the cost of the faithful, at the cost of their ignorance and lack of true culture. It is a society united with the society of other exploiters such as the landlords and the capitalists, united with their State, assisting that State in the oppression of the workers, and reciprocally receiving from the State help in the business of oppression. . . .
"The work which the bourgeoisie in its struggle with the church had left unfinished was carried to an end by the proletarian State. One of the first decrees of the Soviet Power in Russia was the decree concerning the separation of the church from the State. All its landed estates were taken away from the church and handed over to the working population. All the capital of the church became the property of the workers. The endowments which had been assigned to the church under the tsarist régime were confiscated, although these endowments had been cheerfully continued under the administration of the 'socialist' Kerensky. Religion has become the private affair of every citizen. The Soviet Power rejects all thoughts of using the church in any way whatever as a means for strengthening the proletarian State.
"§ 91. Separation of the school from the church
The association of religious propaganda with scholastic instruction is the second powerful weapon employed by the clergy for the strengthening of the ecclesiastical régime and for increasing the influence of the church over the masses. . . .
"A generation ago, the bourgeois, though they were them- selves still atheistically inclined, though they did not believe in religious fairy tales, and though they laughed covertly at religion, nevertheless considered that the fables must be treated with respect in public, since religion was a useful restraint for the common people. Today, the scions of the bourgeoisie are not content with looking upon religion as providing useful fetters for the people, but they have themselves begun to wear the chains. . . .
"The separation of the school from the church aroused and continues to arouse protest from the backward elements among the workers and peasants. . . . The teaching of ecclesias- tical obscurantism in the schools, even though the instruction should be merely optional, would imply the giving of State aid to the maintenance of religious prejudices. In that case the church would be provided with a ready-made audience of children - of children who are assembled in school for purposes which are the very opposite of those contemplated by religion. The church would have at its disposal schoolrooms belonging to the State, and would thereby be enabled to diffuse religious poison among our young people almost as freely as it could before the separation of the school from the church.
"The decree whereby the school is separated from the church must be rigidly enforced, and the proletarian State must not make the slightest concession to medievalism. . . . One of the most important tasks of the proletarian State is to liberate children from the reactionary influence exercised by their parents. The really radical way of doing this is the social education of the children, carried to its logical conclusion. As far as the immediate future is concerned, we must not rest content with the expulsion of religious propaganda from the school. We must see to it that the school assumes the offensive against religious propaganda in the home, so that from the very outset the children's minds shall be rendered immune to all those religious fairy tales which many grown-ups continue to regard as truth.
"§ 92. Struggle with the religious prejudice of the masses
"It has been comparatively easy for the proletarian authority to effect the separation of the church from the State and of the school from the church, and these changes have been almost painlessly achieved. It is enormously more difficult to fight the religious prejudices which are already deeply rooted in the consciousness of the masses, and which cling so stubbornly to life. The struggle will be a long one, demanding much steadfastness and great patience. Upon this matter we read in our programme: 'The Russian Communist Party is guided by the conviction that nothing but the realization of purposiveness and full awareness in all the social and economic activities of the masses can lead to the complete disappearance of religious prejudices.' What do these words signify?
". . . Throughout the entire mechanism of social production there will no longer be anything mysterious, incomprehensible, or unexpected, and there will therefore be no further place for mystical explanations or for superstition. . . .
"For this reason, the mere fact of the organization and strengthening of the socialist system, will deal religion an irrecoverable blow. . . .
"It is essential at the present time to wage with the utmost vigour the war against religious prejudices, for the church has now definitely become a counter-revolutionary organization, and endeavours to use its religious influence over the masses in order to marshal them for the political struggle against the dictatorship of the proletariat. The Orthodox faith which is defended by the priests aims at an alliance with the monarchy. This is why the Soviet Power finds it necessary to engage at this juncture in widespread anti-religious propaganda. . . .
"The credulous crowd is extremely sensitive to anything which hurts its feelings. To thrust atheism upon the masses, and in conjunction therewith to interfere forcibly with religious practices and to make mock of the objects of popular reverence, would not assist but would hinder the campaign against religion. . . ."
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