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American Voters Prefer Muslims to Atheists

A new poll of American voters reports that atheists are less popular than Muslims. To wit:

Sixty-one percent of those questioned said they would be less likely to support a presidential candidate who did not believe in God. Forty-five percent said the same for a Muslim contender.

Only 5 percent or fewer said they would be likelier to support candidates who were atheists.

It appears that for most American voters, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and Christopher Hitchens can just go to Hell. 

Whole article here.  

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Comments to "American Voters Prefer Muslims to Atheists":

Warren | September 10, 2007, 4:00pm | #

God damnit

J sub D | September 10, 2007, 4:05pm | #

Who is surprised by this? At least Muslims have irrational superstition to support their positions. Them God damned atheists only have reason on their side. To your average theist that's no friggin' contest.

Jamie Kelly | September 10, 2007, 4:08pm | #

If most vocal atheists weren't such self-absorbed, angry fuckheads, maybe atheism would have a better chance.
But I'm not hopeful.
Oh well, back to reading my parchments.

tomWright | September 10, 2007, 4:09pm | #

One more reason I keep my shotgun loaded and support the 2nd Amendment.

Damned Robertsonistas knock on my door...

John | September 10, 2007, 4:09pm | #

Ron you say that like the public not letting a drunken nasty sot like Hitchens anywhere near the levers of power is a bad thing.

LibertyPlease | September 10, 2007, 4:11pm | #

Hmmm.... maybe we've found the root of our political problems...

adamson | September 10, 2007, 4:11pm | #

If most vocal atheists weren't such self-absorbed, angry fuckheads

Sounds like most vocal libertarians as well.

JasonC | September 10, 2007, 4:13pm | #

I may be self-absorbed and a fuckhead but I'm not , uh, what was the middle one again?

Finkelstein | September 10, 2007, 4:13pm | #

Muslims, and most religions in general, tend to be more "leave me alone to worship in peace please" more than the hardcore atheists, who are more apt to insist you're a stupid, ignorant fuck who believes in some mythical being akin to a unicorn or narwhal.

And I'm an atheist.

John | September 10, 2007, 4:14pm | #

"Hmmm.... maybe we've found the root of our political problems..."

Yes because putting athiests in charge in Russia and China resulted in so much liberty and rational government. I hear there are a lot of scientific Bolshvics and Maoists who are out of work these days, perhaps we could put them in charge and all of our problems will be solved.

Jamie Kelly | September 10, 2007, 4:14pm | #

Sounds like most vocal libertarians as well.

Fuck you.
:-)

Lamar | September 10, 2007, 4:16pm | #

Most atheists in public office suck it up, go to church, and pretend like they believe all that shit. The Sam Harris's of the world are repugnant because they make it their life's goal to make 94% of Americans feel like shit. That's no way to get elected.

LibertyPlease | September 10, 2007, 4:17pm | #

Yes because putting athiests in charge in Russia and China resulted in so much liberty and rational government.
While those regimes didn't have a SpecialManInTheSky as such, they were constructed and led in with all the trappings and religious zeal. And John, don't take it personally, I wasn't insulting your SpecialManInTheSky in particular...

ed | September 10, 2007, 4:18pm | #

Mencken was right.
(sigh)

Finkelstein | September 10, 2007, 4:18pm | #

In case you don't think that atheists are picking a fight, just look at the front page stores on "atheist" on Digg.com

de stijl | September 10, 2007, 4:19pm | #

We're probably more popular than pedophiles and Andy Dick. Probably.

ed | September 10, 2007, 4:20pm | #

putting athiests in charge in Russia and China resulted in so much liberty and rational government

I usually don't resort to name-calling but damn, John, you're so full of shit.

dhex | September 10, 2007, 4:20pm | #

If most vocal atheists weren't such self-absorbed, angry fuckheads, maybe atheism would have a better chance.

the hole in your hypothesis is by this standard, that a handful of muslims blew up the world trade center should have biased non-muslim americans against them for pretty much a super long time.

and yet...

Russ 2000 | September 10, 2007, 4:22pm | #

Once again, agnostics are ignored.

Asharak | September 10, 2007, 4:24pm | #

Yes because putting athiests in charge in Russia and China resulted in so much liberty and rational government. I hear there are a lot of scientific Bolshvics and Maoists who are out of work these days, perhaps we could put them in charge and all of our problems will be solved.

Hi, troll.

Just to let you know, the atheist=communist epithet is not only bullshit, but it's also the Matlock of red herrings.

B | September 10, 2007, 4:25pm | #

If most vocal atheists weren't such self-absorbed, angry fuckheads, maybe atheism would have a better chance.

Yeah, gosh...what would atheists in this country have to be angry about, after all?

LibertyPlease | September 10, 2007, 4:27pm | #

Once again, agnostics are ignored.
I thought I was agnostic for a while, but religion is just too vile to be passive about.

John | September 10, 2007, 4:29pm | #

"While those regimes didn't have a SpecialManInTheSky as such, they were constructed and led in with all the trappings and religious zeal. And John, don't take it personally, I wasn't insulting your SpecialManInTheSky in particular..."

They were most assuredly atheists. Yes, they had a real religious zeal to them. Stalin used to ask his advisors in times of most stress "tell me what you think as a Bolshevik". It was basically a religious oath. The Bolsheviks and the Maoists for that matter believed that they were ushering in paradise on earth. With that as the end state, what does it matter if you kill a few million people? I guess it goes to show that if people don't believe in God, they will believe in anything. For whatever reason, perhaps we are evolved this way, people always want to believe that are doing something for a higher purpose. Thinking that atheism is somehow going to get rid of that need or man's mania to control other people and kill those in the way of paradise is just laughable.

SugarFree | September 10, 2007, 4:29pm | #

I'd venture a guess that the most vocal members of any group are self-absorbed, angry fuckheads.

People want to vote for the person they see in the mirror every morning. This is why retards run everything.

By the way: the Matlock of red herrings

So it's the simple country lawyer of red herrings?

JasonC | September 10, 2007, 4:29pm | #

Muslims, and most religions in general, tend to be more "leave me alone to worship in peace please" more than the hardcore atheists

hmmmm....that is not connected to any reality I am aware of.

ktc2 | September 10, 2007, 4:29pm | #

Yup, folks hate it when your right.

fyodor | September 10, 2007, 4:30pm | #

What dhex said, sheesh. Most atheists are not "picking a fight" any more than most Muslims are. Double sheesh!!

Anyway, why focus on the relative numbers when the absolute numbers are much more important? 61% less likely to support a non-believer (which includes agnostics, like me, Russ 2000!) and 45% less likely to support a Muslim?

TRIPLE-SHEESH!!!

delo | September 10, 2007, 4:31pm | #

Atheists are only angry because we can't figure out why nobody else "gets it," and that's frustrating. And we're cocky because we're right.

Being right all the time isn't easy =

dhex | September 10, 2007, 4:31pm | #

I thought I was agnostic for a while, but religion is just too vile to be passive about.

"i was going to follow my conscience, but tribalism provides more of a socio-emotional jolt, frankly."

Atheist Sea Otter | September 10, 2007, 4:32pm | #

Know this time-child; I shall smash your skull like a clam on my tummy!

Asharak | September 10, 2007, 4:32pm | #

So it's the simple country lawyer of red herrings?

Heh.

Matlock=old, actually.

Jamie Kelly | September 10, 2007, 4:34pm | #

Yeah, gosh...what would atheists in this country have to be angry about, after all?

Some to be angry about, lots to be happy about.
That they live in a largely secular society and despite repeated attempts by the Christian right to gain control of America's political life, they can still buy porn, get an abortion, and sit around stroking their genitals on Sunday morning while playing violent video games.
That's a start.

John | September 10, 2007, 4:34pm | #

"Atheists are only angry because we can't figure out why nobody else "gets it," and that's frustrating. And we're cocky because we're right.

Being right all the time isn't easy ="

Funny, all of the real nutso fundementalist Christians I know feel exactly the same way. Could it be that they are just two sides of the same coin? That is the desire to be in on the "know" over everyone else? Talk to people in fundementalist sects sometimes, they are often reformed athiests. At the same time, a lot of athiests are reformed fundementalists. For some people it is one ditch or the other.

LibertyPlease | September 10, 2007, 4:36pm | #

I guess it goes to show that if people don't believe in God, they will believe in anything. For whatever reason, perhaps we are evolved this way, people always want to believe that are doing something for a higher purpose. Thinking that atheism is somehow going to get rid of that need or man's mania to control other people and kill those in the way of paradise is just laughable.
Yes John, without a SpecialFloatyThing to worship, I admit I'm inclined to mass murder. Also, without your FloatyThing's Ten Commandments, I have no idea how to be a good human being. You've nailed it. In the absence of rediculous religious bullshit, humanity will colapse.

Episiarch | September 10, 2007, 4:37pm | #

Once again, agnostics are ignored.

This is exactly why, when asked about religious beliefs, I say "agnostic". It doesn't have the "athiests are smug fucking assholes" connotation, but it also does not acknowledge any belief in voices in the sky (go Lemmy) either. Keeps people off your back.

BakedPenguin | September 10, 2007, 4:38pm | #

If most vocal atheists weren't such self-absorbed, angry fuckheads, maybe atheism would have a better chance...

This is unfortunately true. It's also true that (religious) people are going to be most offended by attacks on their beliefs, for the simple fact that any religious belief is inherently irrational and unsupportable by facts. This is why I have totally given up arguing with the religious about religion - logic is completely irrelevant.

Jamie - that would be a full morning.

CFisher | September 10, 2007, 4:39pm | #

If most vocal atheists weren't such self-absorbed, angry fuckheads, maybe atheism would have a better chance.

All things being equal, and assuming that neither candidate has a violent past or is a radical, I think that pretty much sums it up.

John | September 10, 2007, 4:40pm | #

"In the absence of rediculous religious bullshit, humanity will colapse."

Thanks for not understanding a work of what I was saying. The point is that people are what they are. To think that some ism, be it Christianity or atheism or scientology is going to change that fact and somehow make them better and less prone to violence, is just crazy. Even Christianity will admit that. Man is fallen and lousy and only God in the afterlife can make him better.

Dan T. | September 10, 2007, 4:41pm | #

The Atheist religion is a particularly lame one - all the "answers" with none of the optimism.

SIV | September 10, 2007, 4:42pm | #

mythical being akin to a unicorn or narwhal

You don't believe in narwhals?

Hey everybody! Finklestein doesn't believe in narwhals! Lets kick his ass.

John | September 10, 2007, 4:43pm | #

"The Atheist religion is a particularly lame one - all the "answers" with none of the optimism."

That is actually pretty damn funny. My compliments. Athiests just live in denial. Most athiests I know skip that whole abyss and existential anxiety thing. They have plenty of optimism. What could be more optimistic and fun than to smugly look down your nose at everyone?

JLE | September 10, 2007, 4:43pm | #

Yet more evidence of an absurd world.

Religion is winning the "fight" because the majority is rarely reasonable, because there is far more propaganda pushed for religion than for, say, science education, and because weak minds do what they're told without truly questioning it. And, overall, it's a nicely lucrative business.

It's conceivable that people might want to live in a violent tradition of metaphor and magic, and other people certainly want to profit from it, but it's totally inconceivable that nonsense not only enters politics, it drives it.

Flyover Country | September 10, 2007, 4:49pm | #

"If most vocal atheists weren't such self-absorbed, angry fuckheads, maybe atheism would have a better chance."

That sums things up pretty well. That and the annoying Freedom From Religion people misreading the establishment clause of the first amendment.

John | September 10, 2007, 4:50pm | #

"It's conceivable that people might want to live in a violent tradition of metaphor and magic, and other people certainly want to profit from it, but it's totally inconceivable that nonsense not only enters politics, it drives it."

Yes because man was never violent before religion and those who don't have religion are never violent. Further, man's intellect is so astounding that he can put aside all of his prejudice and live an entirely rationally based, peaceful existance if only he could set aside religion. Jeese, and some athiest selling "reason and science" as a cure for all the world's ills is any different than some dirtbag telling me that all my dreams will come true, if I only pray to Jesus and send him $20 how?

Lost_In_Translation | September 10, 2007, 4:51pm | #

If there was ever a thread to make Reasonoids blow a gasket on all sides, its religion and who prefers what.

jtuf | September 10, 2007, 4:51pm | #

Their science is not rational like our science. Praise Science! :-)

Asharak | September 10, 2007, 4:53pm | #

Muslims, and most religions in general, tend to be more "leave me alone to worship in peace please" more than the hardcore atheists, who are more apt to insist you're a stupid, ignorant fuck who believes in some mythical being akin to a unicorn or narwhal.

And I'm an atheist.


Just because hardcore atheists tend to be obnoxious, arrogants jerks doesn't mean the hardcore religious who also tend to be obnoxious, arrogant jerks aren't any less worse. It's a two-way street.

And I'm not an atheist.

LibertyPlease | September 10, 2007, 4:53pm | #

Man is fallen and lousy and only God in the afterlife can make him better.
My Invisible Dancing Table Gorilla says that is untrue. The way to the Invisible Dancing Table Gorilla is through self-cutting.

Your turn.

SugarFree | September 10, 2007, 4:53pm | #

What could be more optimistic and fun than to smugly look down your nose at everyone?

I don't know, John, why don't you tell us.

Asharak | September 10, 2007, 4:54pm | #

aren't any less worse=are any less worse

Asharak | September 10, 2007, 4:56pm | #

The Atheist religion is a particularly lame one - all the "answers" with none of the optimism.

The same people who agree with you the most will think you're also going to Hell for being a liberal.

dhex | September 10, 2007, 4:58pm | #

i love these threads because they confirm my religious beliefs (discordianism).

HAIL SHE WHUT DONE IT ALL!

John | September 10, 2007, 4:58pm | #

Liberty,

I have about 5000+ years of human history that says man is in a pretty fucked up state and can't seem to get along without killing each other. If you can't see that, you are just stupid and I don't what to do for you. You don't have to be a theist to recognize the horrible state of mankind. Pretending that not believing in God would somehow change or cure that state is just as moronic as the people who think that being a Christian is going to somehow gaurentee them worldly success.

dhex | September 10, 2007, 5:00pm | #

Jeese, and some athiest selling "reason and science" as a cure for all the world's ills is any different than some dirtbag telling me that all my dreams will come true, if I only pray to Jesus and send him $20 how?

both are right, in their own ways and in some cases.

of course bridges tend to hold up whether or not i believe in the bridge so there's that as well.

i mean really guys what we're talking about here is meaning, and meaning is important.

Interested | September 10, 2007, 5:01pm | #

Asharak,

Alot of liberals think I am going to hell for being libertarian. Not sufficiently interested in wealth redistribution, er "social justice".

LibertyPlease | September 10, 2007, 5:03pm | #

I have about 5000+ years of human history that says man is in a pretty fucked up state and can't seem to get along without killing each other. If you can't see that, you are just stupid and I don't what to do for you. You don't have to be a theist to recognize the horrible state of mankind. Pretending that not believing in God would somehow change or cure that state is just as moronic as the people who think that being a Christian is going to somehow gaurentee them worldly success.
John, I have never asserted that Atheism is a cure for the destructive human inclinations.

I have only asserted that believing in some nonsense not only will not cure it, all that worship of nonsense will provide a distraction from the cure at best, and compound the problem at worst.

Mysticism is one more problem for humans. Curing it will not cure all the other ailments, but it will be one less ailment.

J sub D | September 10, 2007, 5:06pm | #

If most vocal atheists weren't such self-absorbed, angry fuckheads, maybe atheism would have a better chance

Hey, I represent that statement!

Although many would have good reason to doubt it, I don't start all my social interactions with religious people by calling them superstitious stone age, tribalist fools. I, and I suspect other ateists who post here, feel as though I'm among friends and can let my hair down, so to speak. When I'm offended or angry, I indicate that. OTOH I've NEVER backed awaw from my support of the most important and revered law of the land.

I don't don't really hate, scorn or feel suprior to you theists and deists out there. I just disagree, sometimes vociferously, but never with malice.

J sub D | September 10, 2007, 5:10pm | #

BTW: I'm sure you can all take a joke. Right?

LibertyPlease | September 10, 2007, 5:12pm | #

BTW: I'm sure you can all take a joke. Right?
Let me consult my boogeyman, or his representative (he's sometimes a pedophile, he's always asking for money), and get back to you....

Tacos mmm... | September 10, 2007, 5:21pm | #

who believes in some mythical being akin to a unicorn or narwhal.
Wait, narwhales are mythical?

gorgonzola's foil | September 10, 2007, 5:25pm | #

I'm an athiest myself, but let's all compromise.

More Unitarian presidents please.

Adams, Quincy Adams, Fillmore, Taft.

Been almost a century now since Taft, and if Taft could hold the line against a populist, Scopes-prosecuting Creationist fundie like William Jennings Bryan, well, that's a check plus in my book.

K | September 10, 2007, 5:26pm | #

Such a strong selection bias for the irrational.. Too bad.

K | September 10, 2007, 5:28pm | #

If most vocal atheists weren't such self-absorbed, angry fuckheads, maybe atheism would have a better chance

Yeah, because that's something that distinguishes atheists from religious people.. *sigh*

But more seriously, in any group the most visible members are not necessarily representative.

K | September 10, 2007, 5:30pm | #

I like Dawkins' line about how we're all atheists about most gods (thor, vishnu, tooth fairy, etc), and that some of us just go one god further.

K | September 10, 2007, 5:31pm | #

Funny, all of the real nutso fundementalist Christians I know feel exactly the same way. Could it be that they are just two sides of the same coin?

No, because one side has rational arguments and the other has blind faith.

Rick Barton | September 10, 2007, 5:42pm | #

Full disclosure: I'm a non-believer who harbors no prejudice e against believers whatsoever. I have found that although believers seem quite wrong about the existence of the super-natural, they are often quite right about all manner of other matters. And though I disagree with their conclusions, I even respect the way in which some of them attempt to justify their beliefs.

I am glad to see that the order of he result of the poll came out this way cuz it seems that Muslims are more likely to be the victims of folks who would act on their prejudice. And we now have politicians and a major news outlet (FOX) fomenting bigotry against Muslims.

Biff | September 10, 2007, 5:43pm | #

Most religious people don't go around picking fights with atheists or each other. They just live their lives, but also go to church/temple/whatever, which is visible to the outside world.

Most atheists don't go around picking fights with religious people. They just live their lives, but since they don't assemble anywhere, they are not noticed.

The only time that a person's atheism gets noticed is if he picks fights with religious people. So there is a serious perception bias problem here.

parse | September 10, 2007, 5:43pm | #

Muslims, and most religions in general, tend to be more "leave me alone to worship in peace please" more than the hardcore atheists, who are more apt to insist you're a stupid, ignorant fuck who believes in some mythical being akin to a unicorn or narwhal.

It's not particularly meaningful to compare average religious people with hardcore atheists It's likely that a hardcore anythingis more apt to think you are a stupid ignorant fuck than the average person--that's what makes them hardcore. If the guy isn't going on about how nuts it is to believe in a mythical being, how can you even tell he's a hardcore atheist? How can he even claim to be one with a straight face. Any atheist who won't tell you what a stupid ignorant fuck you are is just a pussy. I'll turn the other cheek, you miserable motherhumper, I'll turn the other goddam cheek!

Rick Barton | September 10, 2007, 5:45pm | #

...shoulds been: "...order of *the* result..."

TJ Rebel | September 10, 2007, 5:46pm | #

Both atheists and religious people are right.

'God' is indistinguishable from reality, for it is all of reality.

So while atheists understand there is nothing apart from us (aka God)Religious folk look for understanding from outside of themselves (God).

I think athiests should take a look at eastern religions. For instance, the art of meditation is a scientifically proven way to increase IQ, happiness, creativity, etc.

Not all of religion is useless, but most of it is.

David (no, not that one) | September 10, 2007, 5:46pm | #

"The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist but the gentle cynic who cares not whether there is a god or not."

-- Eric Hoffer

Aresen | September 10, 2007, 5:47pm | #

I have mixed feelings about China and Russia.

After 10,000 years of people slaughtering one another for this God and that God, I think it's rather refreshing when people slaughter one another for no reason at all.

Biff | September 10, 2007, 5:53pm | #

John, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that if even religion did not exist, people would still find reasons to fight and kill each other, so religion is not at fault for this.

There's a kernel of truth in what you're saying, but it doesn't get religion off the hook. Every divisive ideology plays to humans' innate tendencies towards tribalism and violence, and makes the situation worse. Without religion, would there still be silly wars? Yes. As many? I doubt it. Do you really take such a deterministic view of the world, that the level of violence is fixed, and that ideologies have no effect on it? If radical Islam did not exist, someone would have knocked down the towers anyway (or committed some other massive act of violence) for some other reason?

K. | September 10, 2007, 5:57pm | #

'God' is indistinguishable from reality, for it is all of reality.

Defining god in a way that makes the concept useless. I see.

prolefeed | September 10, 2007, 6:00pm | #

Only 5 percent or fewer said they would be likelier to support candidates who were atheists unwilling to be hypocritical about their lack of religious belief.

Fixed!

Newsflash! Populace prefers hypocrital politicians than ones who tell the truth! News at 11.

J sub D | September 10, 2007, 6:00pm | #

After 10,000 years of people slaughtering one another for this God and that God, I think it's rather refreshing when people slaughter one another for no reason at all.

Aresen, there has always been a reason for senseless slaughter of innocents. It's about power. That defending the faith, saving your soul or protecting the proletariat is all just bullshit used to sway the weak, the unthinking apathetic. Slaughter has always been about getting or maintainig power, "GOD" doesn't have a thing to do with it. If he existed, he'd be righteously pissed.

Timbo | September 10, 2007, 6:00pm | #

"...self-absorbed, angry fuckheads..."

Pathetic argument. Rather than address the substance of the athiests' claims, call them a bunch of names.

Stevo Darkly | September 10, 2007, 6:05pm | #

Maybe religious voters would prefer a religious president because they believe he has an extra incentive to behave himself -- a president who believes in an all-knowing and just God, and operates under the assumption that even if he manages to fool all of the people all of the time, he will still go to Hell at the end of the day.

(Acknowledged: Most atheists do not require belief in a final reckoning after death to keep them honest and moral. And such belief often fails to deter the faithful. I'm just talking about what most religious people probably believe.)

On the other hand, I suspect that a majority of American voters would prefer an atheist to a Muslim as the pilot of their airplane.

I know, and I think most other Americans know, that most ordinary Muslims are harmless. But who can imagine even a combative, angry atheist such as Christoper Hitchens flying a plane into a building while yelling, "Nobody is most great!"

Stevo Darkly | September 10, 2007, 6:10pm | #

"...self-absorbed, angry fuckheads..."

Pathetic argument. Rather than address the substance of the athiests' claims, call them a bunch of names.


Except the issue at hand isn't whether atheists' claims and arguments are rational and defensible, but how atheists are perceived by most American voters. How the most highly visible atheists present themselves -- as conciliatory leaders to truth? Or as combative crusaders? -- could make a difference.

Fluffy | September 10, 2007, 6:16pm | #

A couple of odd points to me about this thread:

Atheists are apparently to be seen as self-absorbed and angry fuckheads because...well, why exactly? Can someone come up with something for me that doesn't boil down to "They think they're right and religious people are wrong and they talk about it a lot"?

Because I don't know if you've noticed this, but there are four channels on my cable right now where ALL DAY, EVERY DAY, religious people talk about how they're right and everyone else is wrong, and about how atheists deserve eternal suffering to punish them for their wrongness. Somehow I don't think snickering about the flying spaghetti monster really matches up.

Also - "Most athiests I know skip that whole abyss and existential anxiety thing. They have plenty of optimism."

That's because there's no abyss unless you are spoiled by the standard set by the Christian teleology.

"Oh noes! My smallest action is no longer part of a Manichaean struggle for control of the universe! How will I ever manage to continue living on without that struggle to give me meaning?" Um - whatever. I don't shiver over the abyss because Satan's not there watching me when I take a shit. I can take a shit all by myself, and have been able to do so since I was quite small, thank you very much.

Edward | September 10, 2007, 6:27pm | #

Most of us confirmed atheists are too smart to run for political office anyway.

crimethink | September 10, 2007, 6:31pm | #

A new poll of American voters reports that atheists are less popular than Muslims.

Uh, no it doesn't. Are the words "less popular" anywhere in the article? I'm not surprised; making sure his conclusions actually follow from the data never has been Mr Bailey's strong suit.

I'm sure that if there was a poll asking people whether they'd rather vote for Peyton Manning or Hilary Clinton for president, Hillary would win. That doesn't mean she's more popular.

Brian | September 10, 2007, 6:32pm | #

If most vocal atheists weren't such self-absorbed, angry fuckheads

Wow, that sounds almost like every vocal person I know. Substitute "angry" for "self-assured", "full of religious zeal", or whatever... None of us have any final answers, but we all know the other guys are wrong. We just can't conceive that we're wrong too.

Oh the humanity.

JBinMO | September 10, 2007, 6:37pm | #

"We're probably more popular than pedophiles and Andy Dick. Probably."

Nope.

K. | September 10, 2007, 6:39pm | #

Religious people *want* to see atheists as angry, condescending assholes because that's a very convenient excuse for not listening to what they say and not bothering to really think about what the implications of not having answers to some of their questions mean.

I think athiests should take a look at eastern religions. For instance, the art of meditation is a scientifically proven way to increase IQ, happiness, creativity, etc.

Because something makes you happy/is good for your brain/etc doesn't mean that there's anything supernatural about it, and it doesn't mean that other practices which are associated with it are true or work.

Aresen | September 10, 2007, 6:44pm | #

J sub D

I agree completely. I was simply mocking the notion, propounded by several of the more religious posters, that atheism was the root cause of the mass murders committed in the 20th century.

If Savonorola or Torquemada or Luther or John Knox had had access to 20th Century technology, they would have committed atrocities in all respects equivalent to those committed by the communists.

Catherine de' Medici arranged the murder of 5,000 Hugenots on St. Barholomew's Day 1572 with just 16th century technology. The slaughter was applauded by the Pope and most of the Roman Catholic Kings. [I wonder what the Muslim rulers of the time thought of this? Did they consider it evidence that Christians could not be considered civilized?]

Brian Courts | September 10, 2007, 6:49pm | #

Atheists are apparently to be seen as self-absorbed and angry fuckheads because...well, why exactly? Can someone come up with something for me that doesn't boil down to "They think they're right and religious people are wrong and they talk about it a lot"?

Heh. No doubt - in every one of these threads we get to hear about how annoying atheists are because they have the nerve to believe they're right and religionists are wrong... geez, imagine that! Not like they're telling you if you don't believe them you're going to suffer for all eternity. No, that isn't being an angry fuckhead, that's just expressing your religious beliefs which we (of course!) must all respect. No such respect needs to be shown to us angry fuckhead atheists however - we should just shut the hell up.

As I have mentioned before, I have been approached many many times by those who want to tell me I better accept Jesus - knocking on my door, leaving fliers on my car, trying to hand me unsolicited fliers, approaching me as I'm eating lunch to ask about my beliefs (and to suggest which ones I should hold), the list goes on and on. NEVER ONCE have I had any such approaches from an atheist. Nobody ever knocks on my door while I'm trying to enjoy a quiet weekend to tell me I shouldn't believe in god.

As is obvious from this poll and others we atheists are a tiny minority so I'm sorry if I just can't take sniveling complaints about obnoxious atheists all that seriously. The cumulative obnoxiousness of all the atheists combined would not equal even one episode of the 700 Club.

Religious people *want* to see atheists as angry, condescending assholes

Indeed.

JBinMO | September 10, 2007, 6:53pm | #

"who believes in some mythical being akin to a unicorn or narwhal."

What about an Urkbold?

Grand Chalupa | September 10, 2007, 6:58pm | #

Considering being an atheist makes you more likeley to be a marxist than any religious group, who exactly are the stupid people believing in myths?

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 7:01pm | #

God damnit

Allah dammit

fixed.

mantooth | September 10, 2007, 7:01pm | #

John,

If your goal is to get people to shout "Oh, shut the fuck up" at their monitors, well done.

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 7:02pm | #

Considering being an atheist makes you more likeley to be a marxist than any religious group, who exactly are the stupid people believing in myths?

OK I can not stay mad at you....brilliantly said.

jimboy | September 10, 2007, 7:06pm | #

OK I can not stay mad at you....brilliantly said.

Maybe if you've recently suffered severe head trama.

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 7:08pm | #

I have about 5000+ years of human history that says man is in a pretty fucked up state and can't seem to get along without killing each other. If you can't see that, you are just stupid and I don't what to do for you. You don't have to be a theist to recognize the horrible state of mankind. Pretending that not believing in God would somehow change or cure that state is just as moronic as the people who think that being a Christian is going to somehow gaurentee them worldly success.

mantooth,

Why again would anyone want stuff like this to be shut up?

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 7:11pm | #

Maybe if you've recently suffered severe head trama.

I ass fucked your mom last night.

What is your point?

Asharak | September 10, 2007, 7:15pm | #

I ass fucked your mom last night.

What is your point?


Nice language and attitude there, "Christian."

Cesar | September 10, 2007, 7:18pm | #

I'm an atheist, and I think man is in a fallen state too. But not because of original sin or the garden--its basically because we have one too many chimp genes in us, and our animal side will always show.

mantooth | September 10, 2007, 7:19pm | #

Joshua,

Because it is asinine. No one here has claimed that if everyone was an atheist the world's ills would disappear. John has the heads of a thousand strawmen mounted in his trophy room.

isildur | September 10, 2007, 7:20pm | #

I was going to give Yet Another Atheism Thread a pass, until I saw this:

"Yes because man was never violent before religion..."

Now, I don't really care about the argument of religious vs. secular violence, but I'm curious:

When, exactly, was the time before religion?

Asharak | September 10, 2007, 7:21pm | #

Considering being an atheist makes you more likeley to be a marxist than any religious group, who exactly are the stupid people believing in myths?

Leave it up to you to engage in such pathetic red-baiting. Yeah, Ayn Rand was a real commie, wasn't she?

And aren't you the same guy who's scoffed at the religious for showing compassion for the poor and less fortunate? Now you want to side with them in order to attack atheists. Then again, you've never been very consistent, have you?

The sad part is that you were actually starting to make sense in some of your recent posts here.

Asharak | September 10, 2007, 7:26pm | #

Hasn't anybody thought that maybe the reason a number of atheists are militant about it is partly because of shrill believers? If Bible-thumpers accuse of being atheists evil, hellbound Satanic communists who want to exterminate religious people, are atheists supposed to just take it and be nice in return? Like I said, it's a two-way street.

Aresen | September 10, 2007, 7:27pm | #

Considering being an atheist christian makes you more likeley to be a marxist klansman than any religious group, who exactly are the stupid people believing in myths?

Cuts both ways, doesn't it?

Cesar | September 10, 2007, 7:30pm | #

In my experience, most religious believers, I'd say 80%--be they Christian, Jewish, or even Muslim or Mormon (the two religions that seem to catch the most shit these days) have been friendly, nice and tolerant people. The same goes for 80% of atheists.

Its the Jerry Falwells, Osama bin Ladens, Bauruch Goldsteins, and assorted plygamous Mormons, and fanatical atheists of the world that ruin it for everyone else.

Fluffy | September 10, 2007, 7:30pm | #

Chalupa -

Let's see:

Christianity:

False idealistic [in the continental sense] metaphysics
Radically altruistic ethics
Millenarian eschatology

Marxism:

False idealistic metaphysics
Radically altruistic ethics
Millenarian eschatology

Maybe the reason there aren't a lot of Christian Marxists is because there's no reason for Christians to cross the street to buy what they already have at home.

Grand Chalupa | September 10, 2007, 7:36pm | #

I'm not "attacking atheists". I'm attacking the belief that not believing in god makes you any less susceptible to magical thinking.

In fact, as horrible as the atrocities commited in the name of religion have been, they pale in comparison to the body count of people who thought they had freed themselves from superstition.

People who believe in a heavanly afterlife don't scare me nearly as much as those who want to create it here on earth.

And for the record, I'm not a religious believer. But I still believe by and large that as bad as man is with God on his side, he's much worse without him.

Cesar | September 10, 2007, 7:38pm | #

Chalupa-

If the combatants in the Wars of Religion had had modern industry, modern science, and modern state organization on their side they would have killed just as many people trust me.

Grand Chalupa | September 10, 2007, 7:39pm | #

Maybe the reason there aren't a lot of Christian Marxists is because there's no reason for Christians to cross the street to buy what they already have at home.

Makes sense. For my response, I quote from my previous post with new and improved spelling.

People who believe in a heavenly afterlife don't scare me nearly as much as those who want to create it here on earth.

TheCurseOfLono | September 10, 2007, 7:46pm | #

All the complaints of "arrogant" or "asshole" atheists being responsible are a crock. Poll/survey numbers indicating mass disdain/ unwillingness to vote for atheists have been around long before the recent spate of books by Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, etc. Perhaps atheists are more vocal because they are tired of this mass bigotry and tired of seeing religion injected into laws and science, where it does not belong. Being sheepish and passive about things has not helped atheism, so you can't really get huffy and whine about how atheists are actually standing up for themselves. As Ashrak says, are atheists supposed to just take it and be nice in return?

Cesar | September 10, 2007, 7:55pm | #

Chalupa-

Osama bin Laden thinks God is on his side. Kim Jung Il is an atheist. Who would you be more scared of with a nuclear weapon, bin Laden or Kim?

TheCurseOfLono | September 10, 2007, 7:58pm | #

For the person who thinks that man would be worse without belief in God than with, I would point out that people with belief in God often do believe in a utopia: heaven. And they often have the bad habit of trying to make heaven on earth, it isn't just marxists. And for the last time, atheists are NOT all marxists. I'd guess that a good many posters on this discussion are atheists. And they are reading REASON magazine, not "Proletariat Quarterly."

J sub D | September 10, 2007, 8:13pm | #

...I have been approached many many times by those who want to tell me I better accept Jesus - knocking on my door, leaving fliers on my car, trying to hand me unsolicited fliers, approaching me as I'm eating lunch to ask about my beliefs (and to suggest which ones I should hold), the list goes on and on. NEVER ONCE have I had any such approaches from an atheist.

Hell, I was once physically assaulted by a self proclaimed Christian because of my disbelief in Hell. I was being nice by not stating that his God was fiction.

But all you deists out there don't worry, we dunoshits> do not condone violence in hope of increasing our membership. One day you too will be Not Visited and join voluntarily.

Michael Hargett | September 10, 2007, 8:17pm | #

Interestingly enough, apparently only atheists have the corner on logic and reason.

I mean, Muslims invented several higher mathematics, a Christian developed the laws of motion, Babylonian astrologers tracked and plotted planetary movement, an ardent Creationist created the first rabies vaccine.

This isn't to diminish the discoveries by atheists. However, it should be remembered that just because one believes that beyond what is seen there is something unseen, that which can be neither proven or unproven, it does not mean that he does not trust his senses for that which is.

Andy | September 10, 2007, 8:37pm | #

I mean, Muslims invented several higher mathematics, a Christian developed the laws of motion

True, as long as what the religious scientist proposes doesn't conflict with the established church doctrine at the time, ie Galileo and Darwin (both of whom believed in God).. otherwise, you stand accused of heresy. Not to diminish the work of such God-fearing individuals as Darwin, of course..

Mike Laursen | September 10, 2007, 8:45pm | #

This is exactly why, when asked about religious beliefs, I say "agnostic". It doesn't have the "athiests are smug fucking assholes" connotation, but it also does not acknowledge any belief in voices in the sky (go Lemmy) either. Keeps people off your back.

Seems like enough Americans buy into tolerating another's religion, as long as he or she has some kind of religion, that an atheist that doesn't want to be hassled can simply dress up that atheism as a religion. Calling yourself a Unitarian or Buddhist could provide cover.

Anonymo the Anonymous | September 10, 2007, 8:45pm | #

In fact, as horrible as the atrocities commited in the name of religion have been, they pale in comparison to the body count of people who thought they had freed themselves from superstition.

Only because you're counting anyone killed by a regime led by a nominal atheist as blood on the hands of atheism, but you don't do the same for theists. Does Hiroshima count as X deaths against Christianity, Truman being a Christian? Were Stalin's crimes motivated by hatred of theists or was that just an excuse for a power trip?

Mike Laursen | September 10, 2007, 8:48pm | #

I think athiests should take a look at eastern religions. For instance, the art of meditation is a scientifically proven way to increase IQ, happiness, creativity, etc.

Some Eastern religions are essentially atheistic by Western standards, although probably a lot of Americans don't know enough about those religions to know it.

whistling jesus | September 10, 2007, 8:58pm | #

"rather refreshing when people slaughter one another for no reason at all."

hmmm...."my non-god is bigger than your non-god."

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 9:12pm | #

No one here has claimed that if everyone was an atheist the world's ills would disappear.

None the less a common perception. And surly I have heard on hit and run from commenters that the world's ills would be lessened.

Has Akira posted yet?

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 9:14pm | #

Nice language and attitude there, "Christian."

To bad sucker, I am an atheist.

Grand Chalupa | September 10, 2007, 9:17pm | #

Only because you're counting anyone killed by a regime led by a nominal atheist as blood on the hands of atheism, but you don't do the same for theists. Does Hiroshima count as X deaths against Christianity, Truman being a Christian? Were Stalin's crimes motivated by hatred of theists or was that just an excuse for a power trip?

Even though I think Hiroshima was justified, you can count that and Hitler as a Christian and still fall WAY below the Marxists.

Anyways, I don't want to get into a game where we just go around counting the dead for each side. My original comment was in response to the Harrises and Hitchenses (an ex'fucking Marxist!) of the world who think atheism will save the world.

And when you bring up Marxism, they say that's a religion too. Despite the fact that in recent history it has been the belief system of educated people all over the world who saw it as "scientific". Changing the definition of "religion" to mean any ideology that proves to be murderous is cheating.

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 9:20pm | #

its basically because we have one too many chimp genes in us, and our animal side will always show.

Almost there Cesar...now just cross that line and say "Man is a wild animal living in the wild and will never stop being wild" and you will get it.

Cesar | September 10, 2007, 9:30pm | #

Chalupa--

At least Joseph Stalin and Mao--atheists--weren't insane enough to launch a nuclear war, since they feared death. You can't say the same about a religious fanatic like bin Laden or Ahmedinijad, can you?

iih | September 10, 2007, 9:31pm | #

iih | September 10, 2007, 9:32pm | #

Damn it, this website!!! I had great comments there (really, the greatest thing ever said)... I give up!

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 9:34pm | #

But all you deists out there don't worry, we dunoshits> do not condone violence in hope of increasing our membership. One day you too will be Not Visited and join voluntarily.

As if the religious have not been persecuted and killed on mass by Marxist atheists.

Look its cool you are a libertarianish (or at least lefty who likes to considers himself a liberal) atheist, hell i am one of those, but please be somewhat honest with yourself and how atheism does not have all that great of history.

Chalupa makes a very good point in that libertarian atheists are not the norm. Marxist atheists are.

Kaganspawn | September 10, 2007, 9:36pm | #

Joshua Corning is right. The corollary truth to atheism is that all human behavior is explicable by reference to animal behavior.

iih | September 10, 2007, 9:36pm | #

Let me give it anothe try:

I am glad to see that the order of he result of the poll came out this way cuz it seems that Muslims are more likely to be the victims of folks who would act on their prejudice. And we now have politicians and a major news outlet (FOX) fomenting bigotry against Muslims.

Thanks (again) Rick! :-)

Stivo:

On the other hand, I suspect that a majority of American voters would prefer an atheist to a Muslim as the pilot of their airplane.

Frankly, I too get nervous when I see what would looks to me like a young, possibly of the puritan types, Muslim on a plane I am on board. I usually get "vigilant" and a bit uneasy. I guess I too commit racial profiling. And this comes from an observant Muslim.

Osama bin Laden thinks God is on his side. Kim Jung Il is an atheist. Who would you be more scared of with a nuclear weapon, bin Laden or Kim?

OBL.

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 9:40pm | #

At least Joseph Stalin and Mao--atheists--weren't insane enough to launch a nuclear war, since they feared death.

Need it be pointed out that Stalin's and Mao's fear of death existed because a primarily secular Christian (with quit a few jews) state also had The Bomb?

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 9:46pm | #

At least Joseph Stalin and Mao--atheists--weren't insane enough to launch a nuclear war, since they feared death. You can't say the same about a religious fanatic like bin Laden or Ahmedinijad, can you?

And yet we all trust blood thirsty Christian Bush having his hand on the most capable nuclear arsenal on the planet.

Anyone ever notice that this was never really a fear? Even here at reason! During a time of war!

SIV | September 10, 2007, 9:48pm | #

If the combatants in the Wars of Religion had had modern industry, modern science, and modern state organization on their side they would have killed just as many people trust me.

The Hutus did alright with axes and radios.


Atheists are much like theist true believers in that they are absolutists with no skepticism of their own beliefs.

joshua corning | September 10, 2007, 9:49pm | #

opps

This:

And yet we all trust blood thirsty Christian Bush having his hand on the most capable nuclear arsenal on the planet.

Anyone ever notice that this was never really a fear? Even here at reason! During a time of war!


Was for this:

Osama bin Laden thinks God is on his side. Kim Jung Il is an atheist. Who would you be more scared of with a nuclear weapon, bin Laden or Kim?

Cesar | September 10, 2007, 9:52pm | #

The Hutus did alright with axes and radios.

The Thirty Years War (a religiously inspired war) managed to reduce the population of what is now Germany between 15 to 30%, I shudder to think what they would do have done with modern weapons.

Cesar | September 10, 2007, 9:54pm | #

Joshua-

Bush isn't a big of a fanatic as bin Laden, even in his worst days.

The Christian equivalent to OBL would be Eric Rudolph. How do you feel about him having nukes versus a secular fanatic like Kim Jung Il?

iih | September 10, 2007, 9:58pm | #

Cesar:

Why go that far. Well, we have Tancredo!

dhex | September 10, 2007, 10:14pm | #

Considering being an atheist makes you more likeley to be a marxist than any religious group, who exactly are the stupid people believing in myths?

probably the stupid people believing in myths.

besides, your example is not so hot in either direction - the group of atheists who are communists is going to be smaller (gross and by %) than the group of religious people as a whole no matter what. (both being groups given the label "stupid people believing in myths")

dorothy day was pretty cool all things considered.

dhex | September 10, 2007, 10:35pm | #

The Way of Love: Dorothy Day and the American Right
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GER/is_2000_Summer/ai_63500751

SIV | September 10, 2007, 10:36pm | #

Cesar,

Rudolph is a Christian?

from wiki (apologies but this is how I remember it when it was news)

However, Rudolph's actions are not now considered to be religiously motivated, as he wrote "Many good people continue to send me money and books. Most of them have, of course, an agenda; mostly born-again Christians looking to save my soul. I suppose the assumption is made that because I'm in here I must be a 'sinner' in need of salvation, and they would be glad to sell me a ticket to heaven, hawking this salvation like peanuts at a ballgame. I do appreciate their charity, but I could really do without the condescension. They have been so nice I would hate to break it to them that I really prefer Nietzsche to the Bible.

Cesar | September 10, 2007, 10:39pm | #

SIV-

OBL or Kim Jung Il with a nuke, which scares you more?

SIV | September 10, 2007, 10:40pm | #

Hey the bio indicates Eric Robert Rudolph was a POT SMOKER. Perhaps mary jane was his motivation....

Cesar | September 10, 2007, 10:42pm | #

Hey the bio indicates Eric Robert Rudolph was a POT SMOKER. Perhaps mary jane was his motivation....

Wow, I'm shocked the Partnership for a Drug Free America hasn't made an ad about that yet.

Anonymo the Anonymous | September 10, 2007, 10:42pm | #

Even though I think Hiroshima was justified, you can count that and Hitler as a Christian and still fall WAY below the Marxists.

Anyways, I don't want to get into a game where we just go around counting the dead for each side. My original comment was in response to the Harrises and Hitchenses (an ex'fucking Marxist!) of the world who think atheism will save the world.


20th century, yeah, the nominal* atheists probably have more dead by their hands, though there are some flaws in this: here we're only counting mass murders committed by governments, and I think the numbers change drastically if we go further back and count hundreds of years of wars between Europeans who were virtually all Christian in some form or another, accounting for murder-enabling technology and population inflation.

(I say "nominal atheists" because I'm not knowledgeable enough about Stalin, et al., beyond "communism is an atheistic doctrine" to decide if it makes sense to call them atheists the same way we call Richard Dawkins an atheist.)

But agreed, counting deaths is not a useful way to compare religion vs. non-religion. It's too hard to get accurate numbers to begin with unless we arbitrarily limit the data set, there are plenty of confounding variables and, most importantly, "My guys only killed 12 million people while your guys killed 26 million! My metaphysics are thus clearly better than yours!" is like the worst argument ever.

And agreed, atheism isn't going to save the world. Nothing will. But I, and I think most other sensible atheists (as well as sensible adherents to religion), don't adhere to atheism because we believe it has a better shot at saving the world than theism does. We adhere to atheism because we believe it is more likely to be true than theism is, and that's the only logical way to pick your beliefs on these kinds of questions.

SIV | September 10, 2007, 10:47pm | #

OBL

not cause Kim is an atheist and OBL is a Mohammedan Fanatic

Kim is a pussy who inherited the job and would hate to lose the perks

OBL could be relaxin' on a yacht at Cannes or Monte Carlo with a crew of 20000$ hookers and enough Cristal to float the boat and more cocaine than he could lift like any good saudi rich boy but NO he is chillin' in shithole Pakistan in a cave. I fear his audacity and ambition.

Fluffy | September 10, 2007, 10:54pm | #

Would this be a good point in the thread to point out that the question of whether atheists are nicer people than Christians is absolutely immaterial to the question of whether the Christian myths are true or not?

Stalin and Mao may have killed a lot of people, but that doesn't really help us determine whether or not it's silly to think that Jesus rose from the dead.

I tend to be a bit agnostic on the deity question, but pretty atheistic on the question of the Christian god. After all, I can concede that it's at least possible that there's a deity of some kind out there doing his best to stay hidden from us at all times. But that's a lot different from granting credence to the story of Abraham, of Joseph, of Moses, and of Jesus. There may be a deity somewhere, but it ain't this one. And the likelihood of the version of events described in the two testaments being accurate doesn't rise or fall when Michaelangelo paints a pretty picture or when Hitler has someone strangled with piano wire.

iih | September 10, 2007, 10:55pm | #

SIV:

It is not a matter of PC, but more a matter of precise descriptions. OBL is not a "Mohammedan Fanatic". This is more of an orientalist thing. Orientalists used to misinform Europeans back in the day that Muslims worshiped Muhammad, which is patently false. OBL is simply a Muslim terrorist. Or, as I would rather describe him, a terrorist who happened to be Muslim and who happened to be using Islam as his reasons for the atrocities he committed. Sort of like Bush using the goodness that is inherent in democratic ideals, and liberty to justify the war on Iraq (while his true motives were _______ [fill in the blanks -- if you find any]).

TheCurseOfLono | September 10, 2007, 11:02pm | #

How about we put it this way, not all atheists are marxists (actually, I doubt very few of them are), but all marxists are atheists, well most of them are anyway. I think Cornel West said that religion was where he disagreed with Marx. Remember, Ayn fucking Rand was an atheist. You shouldn't automatically suspect an atheist of being a marxist. Marxism has only been killing people for about a 100 years. We seem to have wised up about that. How long has religion been doing it? And the last point on that is that the atheism of marxists is incidental. It was their marxism that caused them to kill people, not their atheism.

Also, all atheists aren't skeptical? My atheism came out of my skepticism. So has my libertarianism.

iih | September 10, 2007, 11:10pm | #

TheCurseOfLono:

There reason I believe in a deity is that the lack of His existence makes no sense to me.

Simply put: No single law of physics explains why things happen. They merely describe how they happen. Why I believe in the Big Bang Theory. It is a descriptive theory and does not explain it for us. Newton's laws of gravity describe (in a mathematically exact way) how bodies interact, but does not tell us why they interact the way they do. Not even Einstein's general relativity provide an explanation. It provides an a description. That is probably why Einstein was not an atheist.

To say the leat, if there is no logical reason to believe in a deity, there is no logical reason not to believe in one.

whistling jesus | September 10, 2007, 11:37pm | #

An estimated 16,692 persons were murdered nationwide (US) in 2005, an increase of 3.4 percent from the 2004 figure.
Murder comprised 1.2 percent of the overall estimated number of violent crimes in 2005. (Based on Table 1.)
There were an estimated 5.6 murders per 100,000 inhabitants.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_crime/murder_homicide.html

my guess is the above numbers have been pretty steady for, i dunno..about a decade or so.

were they commited mostly by christians? pagans? atheists? Thelemites?

i couldnt tell from the website.

Grand Chalupa | September 10, 2007, 11:53pm | #

I think Cornel West said that religion was where he disagreed with Marx.

Funny story about West. When I decided I wanted to be more open minded and read a far leftists's view I bought one of his books off Amazon for four bucks or so. It was the most intellectually dense collection of crap I have ever spent money on.

It was surely worth it, just to see how silly you could be and still be considered a contemporay leftist intellectual. There is no complexity to his arguments at all. Conservatives are either evil or stupid and easily fooled. From reading his material you'd think that there was never an intellectually viable conservative view on anything.

If you ever want to convert a smart liberal to the conservative point of view you'd be better off recommending West than Burke or Hayek.

Ebenezer Scrooge | September 11, 2007, 1:39am | #

Are the words "less popular" anywhere in the article? I'm not surprised; making sure his conclusions actually follow from the data never has been Mr Bailey's strong suit.

Oh so true. But he probably sells a lot more articles that way. People like to hear somebody spouting their secret prejudices across the headlines as PROVEN FACT.

Ebenezer Scrooge | September 11, 2007, 1:39am | #

At least I got a couple of laughs out of this thread.

After 10,000 years of people slaughtering one another for this God and that God, I think it's rather refreshing when people slaughter one another for no reason at all.

......

But who can imagine even a combative, angry atheist such as Christoper Hitchens flying a plane into a building while yelling, "Nobody is most great!"

Ebenezer Scrooge | September 11, 2007, 1:44am | #

To say the leat, if there is no logical reason to believe in a deity, there is no logical reason not to believe in one.

Well....perhaps but --

If you suppose that what your senses tell you exists, needs to have an explanation, and then you suppose that explanation is FloatingGodThingy, or GorillaDancingOnTable, or TheLoneWacko -- or just whatever gets your rocks off man, it's a free country -- then, assuming you take the last option in my list, I have to ask where did TheLoneWacko come from?

Now you don't have to answer my question. But if existence is not enough and you demand a creator for it, then I demand to know who the creator of your creator is. [I mean hey man, who created TheLoneWacko anyway?] Because that creator must be even more complex (thus harder to explain, especially considering the existence of TheLoneWacko) than what we see in front of us. Which indisputably is, TheLoneWacko.

This leads to an infinite regress of "who/what did it?" questions. I find Occum's Razor much more convincing than an infinite regress.

I also fear that whatever would have created TheLoneWacko would have to be something InfinitelyWorse (and perhaps even more amusing), hence my adament atheism. But that's a story for another time.

TheCurseOfLono | September 11, 2007, 2:01am | #

Oh for the love of Christ.

Firstly iih, if you honestly think that if there is no logical reason to believe in something than there is no logical reason not to believe in something, you might as well believe in invisible pink unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters and so forth. There is no logical reason to disbelieve in them either according to what you are saying.

Secondly, people who argue that Einstein believed in "God," miss the point that Einstein did not use the word in the conventional sense. He tended to conflate "God" with the universe and the physical laws that govern it. When he said that "God does not play dice" for example, he was rejecting what he say as the randomness of quantum mechanics.

Also, I can't say I've read West. I just remember something I read some time ago. I only used him to try to illustrate that you don't have to be an atheist to be a marxist.

smartass sob | September 11, 2007, 2:25am | #

I don't shiver over the abyss because Satan's not there watching me when I take a shit. I can take a shit all by myself,...

Of course, he's not there - do you think he wants a face full of shit?!

Mad Max | September 11, 2007, 2:34am | #

I haven't RTFA (the comments are *much* more interesting), but it seems that American voters are statistically more likely to *consider* voting for a Muslim than to consider voting for an atheist.

Do I agree with these attitudes? No, because there are qualified atheists just like there are qualified Muslims, though I don't share their beliefs.

I can certainly understand the attitude, though. If you look at the death tolls, atheists have killed more people than Muslims. Of course, these killers don't represent *all* atheists or Muslims.

I love the way some posters hem and haw at describing Stalin and Mao as atheists. I seem to detect something very like the "True Scotsman" fallacy, which is described on this atheist Web site:

http://atheism.about.com/od/logicalfallacies/a/notruescotsman.htm

Of coure, the Web site thinks that the True Scotsman fallacy is the province of those wicked believers.

No true atheist would ever fall prey to the True Scotsman fallacy!

Francois Tremblay | September 11, 2007, 2:46am | #

Ironically, of all the people I have talked to and debated, generally the agnostics are by far the most arrogant, snobby pieces of shit there are. I'd rather be trapped in a room with a Christian fundamentalist than an agnostic.

rgyurkov | September 11, 2007, 3:28am | #

Why don't we simply accept that concentrating power into anyone's hands is a really bad idea? Those who are most strongly attracted to power are those least suited to possessing it. Frank Herbert (the author of "Dune") had an interesting reinterpretation of Lord Acton's famous axiom: The desire for power corrupts, the desire for absolute power corrupts absolutely. Those in power should be those most reluctant to have it and under such circumstances that they are reluctant to use it.

Gene Callahan | September 11, 2007, 4:31am | #

Cesar: "At least Joseph Stalin and Mao--atheists--weren't insane enough to launch a nuclear war, since they feared death. You can't say the same about a religious fanatic like bin Laden or Ahmedinijad, can you?"

Right, look at how many nuclear wars bin Laden and Ahmedinijad have started!

Wait, it's zero?! Doh!

Ebenezer Scrooge | September 11, 2007, 5:53am | #

bin Laden doesn't have nuclear armed cruise missile arsenals either. At least not that I've heard anything about. If you trust that lunatic you're -- well, I am unable to must anything sufficiently fitting to describe what you would be if you actually trusted him.

I do recall hearing bin Laden saying something to America like "Convert to Islam or die!".

Doh!

Whether anyone believes in God, gods, or nothing, is not even what matters in the end. It's how they choose to deal with the here and now.

Nobody has a monopoly on stupidity, it is freely and abundantly available to all. A regular Tragedy of the Commons kind of problem. Stupidity is like air.

B | September 11, 2007, 6:24am | #

JBinMO replied to a previous post which stated, "We're probably more popular than pedophiles and Andy Dick. Probably." He replied with one word, "Nope."

I beg to differ. As both an atheist and a pedophile (girl lover) I can assure you that atheists are far more popular. For example, if you are open about the fact that you are a law-abiding atheist, you will not get thrown out of California, but if a man is open about the fact that he is a law-abiding pedophile, he will be. (cf. Jack McClellan, who was issued a restraining order prohibiting him from coming within 30 feet of any child in all of California, simply because he was open about his attraction to young girls. This effectively prohibits him from California.)

Of course, there are always some exceptions. There are a few Christians, for example, who are actually aware of the fact that there is nothing in the Bible that can be construed as condemnation of an attraction to children. Quite the contrary, God the Father apparently got Mary pregnant when she was about 12. So a great deal depends on the individual - yet all the same, I have told a few people in real life that I am an atheist, I have not been so forthcoming about who I am attracted to.

As an added note: a friend of mine who is both a girllover and African-American affirms that anti-pedophile bigotry is much greater and affects his life more negatively than racism.

TheCurseOfLono | September 11, 2007, 6:30am | #

For Mad Max here, I'm going to repeat an earlier point. The atheism of people like Mao and Stalin is incidental to their mass-murder. They didn't kill all those people because of their atheism. If you take some one like bin Laden on the other hand, their religion is quite evidently part of the reason why they do what they do.

Mad Max | September 11, 2007, 6:59am | #

TheCurseOfLono,

When Trotsky (not even the worst of the commies) said "We must put an end once and for all to the papist-Quaker babble about the sanctity of human life" (http://www.salon.com/march97/sneaks/sneak970325.html), why did he single out two *theistic* groups for special scorn, if atheism was just an incidental add-on to Marxism?

Why did the Soviet Union propagandize incessantly against religious "superstition," create Museums of Atheism and promote "scientific atheism," if atheism was just an incidental part of their ruling ideology?

Here's something I found on Google - a 1913 article by Lenin describing the "three sources of Marxism."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/mar/x01.htm

Guess which source of Marxism Lenin cites *first*?

"The philosophy of Marxism is materialism. Throughout the modern history of Europe, and especially at the end of the eighteenth century in France, where a resolute struggle was conducted against every kind of medieval rubbish, against serfdom in institutions and ideas, materialism has proved to be the only philosophy that is consistent, true to all the teachings of natural science and hostile to superstition, cant and so forth. The enemies of democracy have, therefore, always exerted all their efforts to “refute”, under mine and defame materialism, and have advocated various forms of philosophical idealism, which always, in one way or another, amounts to the defence or support of religion."

Not all atheists are Marxists, but these Marxist murderers we have been discussing were certainly atheists as a key component of their ideology, and not people who *just happen* to be atheists.

Mad Max | September 11, 2007, 7:12am | #

Some more wisdom from Comrade Lenin. Gosh, he sure seemed to focus a lot of attention to the minor, "incidental" doctrine of atheism, didn't he?

http://www.marxist.com/classics/lenin/militant_materialism.html

"On The significance of Militant Materialism

"by V. I. Lenin

". . . It will be seen from the above that a journal that sets out to be a militant materialist organ must be primarily a militant organ, in the sense of unflinchingly exposing and indicting all modern 'graduated flunkeys of clericalism', irrespective of whether they act as representatives of official science or as free lances calling themselves 'democratic Left or ideologically socialist' publicist.

"In the second place, such a journal must be a militant atheist organ. We have departments, or at least state institutions, which are in charge of this work.But the work is being carried on with extreme apathy and very unsatisfactorily, and is apparently suffering from the general conditions of our truly Russian (even though Soviet) bureaucratic ways. It is therefore highly essential that in addition to the work of these state institutions, and in order to improve and infuse life into that work, a journal, which sets out to propagandise militant materialism, must carry on untiring atheist propaganda and an untiring atheist fight.The literature on the subject in all languages should be carefully followed and everything at all valuable in this sphere should be translated, or at least reviewed.

"Engels long ago advised the contemporary leaders of the proletariat to translate the militant atheist literature of the late eighteenth century for mass distribution among the people. We have not done this up to the present, to our shame be it said (this is one of the numerous proofs that it is much easier to seize power in a revolutionary epoch than to know how to use this power properly).Our apathy, inactivity and incompetence are sometimes excused on all sorts of 'lofty' grounds, as, for example, that the old atheist literature of the eighteenth century is antiquated, unscientific, naïve, etc. There is nothing worse than such pseudo-scientific sophistry, which serves as a screen either for pedantry or for a complete misunderstanding of Marxism. There is, of course, much that is unscientific and naïve in the atheist writings of the eighteenth-century revolutionaries. But nobody prevents the publishers of these writings from abridging them and providing them with brief postscripts pointing out the progress made by mankind in the scientific criticism of religions since the end of the eighteenth century, mentioning the latest writings on the subject, and so forth.It would be the biggest and most grievous mistake a Marxist could make to think that the millions of the people (especially the peasants and artisans), who have been condemned by all modern society to darkness, ignorance and superstition, can extricate themselves from this darkness only along the straight line of Marxist education. These masses should be supplied with the most varied atheist propaganda material, they should be made familiar with facts from the most diverse spheres of life, they should be approached in every possible way, so to interest them, rouse them from their religious torpor, stir them from the most varied angles and by the most varied methods, and so forth.

"The keen, vivacious and talented writings of the old eighteenth-century atheists wittily and openly attacked the prevailing clericalism and will very often prove a thousand times more suitable for arousing people from their religious torpor than the dull and dry paraphrases of Marxism, almost completely unillustrated by skilfully selected facts, which predominate in our literature and which (it is no use hiding the fact) frequently distort Marxism. We have translations of all the major works of Marx and Engels. There are absolutely no grounds for fearing