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Open Thread: Ode to the Enhanced, or Whatever Floats Your Boat

As Barry Bonds swings his way toward Hank Aaron's home-run record and the Tour de Farce straggles to a close, the Los Angeles Times' Joel Stein pens an "Ode To the Enhanced":

In a more enlightened age, when the risks and the costs of these medical miracles come down, we'll look back on Bonds' triumph as a victory for all of us. We'll see our booing of him as symptoms of a silly, Luddite phobia of manipulating our own bodies. I'm sure there was an equal outcry when makeup was invented. And hair dye and the Wonder bra. How our ancestors went on, I have no idea.

Bonds is not using a corked bat, which many players have, just as plenty of pitchers have scuffed balls. He has simply redesigned his body. Like so many of us have. Medicine, surgery and genetic engineering are no more an affront to God than drinking the protein shakes he didn't leave on the vine. And until we accept that, we're going to keep losing to those we call cheaters.

So next week, I'll be watching Bonds with my Lasiked eyes, free of the scar that was laser-pulsed from my nose, while I run a hand through my Rogained hair. And of course I'll be holding -- because it makes me feel better -- a beer.

What say you, Hit & Run readers?

Is Bonds simply a cheater? Is Joel Stein being ironic? Or post-9/11 ironically unironic?

What self-directed evolution will you be undertaking this weekend?

And if you're not interested in that topic, then fire away on whatever floats your boat.

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Comments to "Open Thread: Ode to the Enhanced, or Whatever Floats Your Boat":

Pio | July 28, 2007, 6:46pm | #

does rogaine really work?

M | July 28, 2007, 6:49pm | #

Open thread, so you get to see what made me think fondly of y'all when, a propos of nothing, I came across it.

Pio | July 28, 2007, 6:51pm | #

because i feel i will be turning bald soon, and i gotta plan ahead.

FinFangFoom | July 28, 2007, 6:55pm | #

I fail to see where the pro-enhancement people are coming from in regards to sports. Sports have rules, and any meaning from achievement comes from playing within those rules.

Jim Anderson | July 28, 2007, 7:00pm | #

FinFangFoom: Sports can also change their rules for the sake of The Game. Baseball has raised or lowered the mound to jiggle ERAs. American football added instant replay. Soccer could ban flopping--no they couldn't.

Anyhow, The Rules aren't sacred.

Jimmy Smith | July 28, 2007, 7:06pm | #

The Rules Are Sacred. Kristofferson said so and I heard him.

ed | July 28, 2007, 7:09pm | #

Fans look at the stats and the eras in which the players played and they judge them accordingly, if not always fairly or rationally. Bonds' achievements, in my opinion, serve only to magnify those of the Babe, Maris and Aaron.

JMR | July 28, 2007, 7:10pm | #

Baseball has raised or lowered the mound to jiggle ERAs...Anyhow, The Rules aren't sacred.

Baseball did raise and lower the mound, but baseball didn't start shooting roids into the players' asses. Certain players did it, clandestinely, and even if it was not explicitly forbidden by baseball authorities until recently it was illegal and maybe they thought that implied it also was not allowed in baseball.

FinFangFoom | July 28, 2007, 7:14pm | #

Sure the rules can be changed, but why?

Precedent | July 28, 2007, 7:20pm | #

precedent
http://www.reason.com/blog/show/121523.html

application?:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19999896/?GT1=10150

Okapi | July 28, 2007, 7:21pm | #

The pro-steroids people have simply never played sports, so they will never understand. There's no point in trying to explain it to them.

John | July 28, 2007, 7:21pm | #

At some level I think he is right. People who aren't prevented by rules like athletes will improve themselves when they can. Look further into the future and imagine a time when your average person has a better strength, endurance and reaction time than current athletes. Will there be a class of "naturals" who play pro sports? If so, would anyone watch that? So at some point sports will need to figure out how to accept artificial enhancement.

SIV | July 28, 2007, 7:32pm | #

I fail to see where the pro-enhancement people are coming from in regards to sports.


In order for rules to be enforced you have to get caught.Cheating successfully in a sporting contest is often admired (auto racing, Gaylord Perry in baseball etc.). Woe unto whoever is caught however, he should suffer the full wrath of the sanctioning body and the fans.Bonds hasn't been "caught" yet and it won't be Major League Baseball catching him either. It will be the Damn Feds overstepping their Constitutionally defined function once again. Perhaps we need a Department of Professional Sports or a Sporting Enforcement Agency. I'm sure all the "liberaltarians" would be in favor.

SIV | July 28, 2007, 7:39pm | #

Open thread yet related subject. Does anyone who considers himself pro drug legalization think steroids shouldn't be? Sports could still ban them just as other private employers could continue testing for psychoactive drugs that are banned as part of an employment contract.

Brian Courts | July 28, 2007, 7:41pm | #

The pro-steroids people have simply never played sports, so they will never understand.

Both the assertion that "pro-steroids" people have never played sports, and the implication that it matters, are rather dubious.

Ruthless | July 28, 2007, 7:45pm | #

The host of Weekend Edition--is it Bob Simon? I'm terrible with names--this morning was bemoaning that sports seem to have gone to hell in a handbasket lately. (BTW, whatever his name, he is the brightest spot on NPR.)
I commented to the Little Woman, as we were driving to WalMart: I seriously doubt sports is any crookeder or sleazier or whatever now, than it has ever been.
(Unless there has been one of those quantum leaps in human evolution Jay Gould was talking about that completely passed the Little Woman and me by. That's entirely possible.)

chris Darrouzet | July 28, 2007, 7:46pm | #

His chosen form of enhancement is CHEATING within baseball's own official rules and rulings. Until the rules change, it's CHEATING. Other players abide by the rule. Some don't. That's the way CHEATERS and sports always work. He's also annoying as all hell for his LYING about the obivious.

BTW: It is not against anyone's laws or rule to use Rogaine or get a breast implant. There is no CHEATING involved there.

Doctor Duck | July 28, 2007, 7:46pm | #

Reasonably good argument on the subject over at the Freakonomics blog.

SIV | July 28, 2007, 7:52pm | #

His chosen form of enhancement is CHEATING within baseball's own official rules and rulings.

Gaylord Perry made a career out of CHEATING at baseball and he is in the Hall of Fame.

There sems to be a different attitude about performancce enhancing drugs than other forms of cheating in sports.

SIV | July 28, 2007, 7:58pm | #

Doctor Duck,


The piece at FREAKONOMICS,/i> is amusing from a libertarian perspective. The idea that you can't legalize doping in sports because it would violate medical ethics and controlled substance laws.

Doctor Duck | July 28, 2007, 8:05pm | #

...you can't legalize doping in sports because it would violate medical ethics...

Definitely the weakest part of the argument. He does make some good points earlier, though, in particular about what you might call the Gresham's Law of doping. As soon as you make it legal you effectively drive out anyone who doesn't want to dope (assuming of course that the doping does enhance performance).

Brian Courts | July 28, 2007, 8:08pm | #

His chosen form of enhancement is CHEATING within baseball's own official rules and rulings.

And besides Perry, as SIV notes, the outcome of the most famous pennant race in history was a result of the New York Giants cheating, yet that improbable comeback is still a part of baseball lore. In 1951 the Giants managed to erase the 13 1/2 game lead of the Dodgers, (capped off by Bobby Thomson's "Shot Heard 'Round the World"), with the help of sign stealing from the Polo Grounds center field clubhouse.

Les | July 28, 2007, 8:18pm | #

His chosen form of enhancement is CHEATING within baseball's own official rules and rulings.

I'll add that his chosen form of enhancement WAS cheating, but hasn't been for a good while. Also when he WAS cheating, he was undoubtedly doing it against many others who were cheating, too.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 28, 2007, 8:31pm | #

Brian, that's a great story but the difference is that sign stealing isn't against the rules. Steroids is.

It's the rules. If you want to change the rules, fine, but if you are a stand up guy, you play by the rules you agreed to. Maybe you play hard, but you still play by the rules.

It's like running a 383 stroker Chevy motor, which looks exactly like a 350 from the outside, in the 350 class.

BTS | July 28, 2007, 8:47pm | #

I'd just like to say that my favorite memory of a game involving Barry Bonds is when I was sitting in the 2nd row left field seats at Turner Field and the drunken yahoos in front of me repeatedly shouted "Blue Barry" at him while throwing chunks of ice from their Budweisers at Barry's behind.

That is all.

SIV | July 28, 2007, 8:49pm | #

Ahhh Motorsport where cheating is respectable and admirable, particularly if you don't get caught.

The legendary Mark Donohue titled his autobiography The Unfair Advantage.

Junior Johnson filling the roll cage with extra gas in NASCAR;Smokey Yunick hiding nitrous oxide systems; Those guys would work hard at devising any way to win in violation of both the spirit and the letter of the rules.

George | July 28, 2007, 8:58pm | #

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that nothing Bonds has been accused of doing was actually against the rules of baseball at the time he supposedly did it. Is that not the case?

joshua corning | July 28, 2007, 9:05pm | #

free of the scar that was laser-pulsed from my nose

They have this?

I have a scar on my forehead I got like 3 years ago....but if now this can be gotten rid of....I almost want to keep it forever now.

Kenobi | July 28, 2007, 9:06pm | #

Clearly, what is needed is a no-steroids league and a steroids-using league, so that the people who want baseball without the jet engines can have their fun and the rest of us don't have to listen to their bitching.

The government making it illegal to dope is another matter entirely. They force me into their crappy schools, threaten to kidnap me if I don't pay for their mass-murder campaigns or if I happen to smoke a vegetable, and then they have the gall to go around lecturing beefy jocks about fair play.

gaijin | July 28, 2007, 9:19pm | #

Clearly, what is needed is a no-steroids league and a steroids-using league, so that the people who want baseball without the jet engines can have their fun and the rest of us don't have to listen to their bitching.

Isn't this kind of like the NBA and the WNBA? I think the jet engines will draw the crowds.

joshua corning | July 28, 2007, 9:21pm | #

who cares about spectator sports...

Is it legal for me to use drugs to help me simply run really fast?

Kenobi | July 28, 2007, 9:29pm | #

Isn't this kind of like the NBA and the WNBA? I think the jet engines will draw the crowds.

That's what I figure. I think people mainly only care about consistent rules in a sport, whatever the rules allow.

Karen | July 28, 2007, 9:29pm | #

The problem I've got with doping in sports is that inevitably it starts very, very young. Steroids, to use the most pernicious example, may improve Barry Bonds' game, but they can cause serious, lifelong damage to a high school kid trying to get a scholarship. If the pros do it, eventually it trickles down to high school. I'm not so sure that being open about the process might do as much to prevent this problem as banning such drugs would.

Mr. Nice Guy | July 28, 2007, 9:30pm | #

One doesn't have to be for making steroids illegal (I'm not) to just say that knowledge of Bond's enhancement will make his achievement less impressive than if it had been done without the enhancement. If you knew two baseball players, one that hit x number of home runs and the other that hit x+1, but you also knew the latter ate Dynabol for breakfast every day, then you'd be some kind of fool to think the latter guy was a "better" baseball player.
I guess I should know better than to look for an actual argument in the murky depths of SIV's ramblings, but it strikes me that his incoherent postings are implying that cheating in Bonds case is OK because everyone does it. And that is what makes it ok to violate rules that all participants have consented to before taking up the game? And this from a guy who unthinkingly and uncritically would assert the authority of John Locke not too long ago (do you even understand the rudiments of what is entailed by a social contract?).
I do think the fans are hypocrites to constantly push for ever increasing performances from atheletes, to constantly need to see records broken anew every year, and then to cry fould when they discover that atheletes are bending the rules to give them what they are demanding.

stop the drug war | July 28, 2007, 9:50pm | #

When Hammering Hank set his records, amphetamines were legal. I have read, I don't know if it's true, that he and others would use them liberally and that Hank kept a jug of go juice which included amphetamine in his locker.

In out current era, Barry was hitting against pitchers using all the chemicals he used.

As for steroids, I understand they helped in sppeding recovery from injuries. That sounds like a good thing... and like so many good things, the harm is in the excess.

rm2muv | July 28, 2007, 10:13pm | #

Why don't they just give all 'roid users asterisks and let it go. That will give the hot stove league something to bring up every time a record is approached, and give certified non-users an opportunity to go for a 'clean' record.

seer | July 28, 2007, 10:28pm | #

While this fool is cheering on Barry, people that follow sports will be keeping an eye on A-Rod who is almost certain to shatter any record that Bonds sets.

Word Bomb | July 28, 2007, 10:29pm | #

Shooting Up on Jock Culture
By Robert Lipsyte

I was shooting depo-testosterone the other day, imagining how good the juice would make me feel and how it would power my pedaling up the Ram Island hill, the toughest test on my 15-mile bicycle ride. The hill is my Alps and so my feelings about Floyd Landis testing positive this past steroid summer after winning the Tour de France with a ruined hip are so mixed as to be almost incoherent. Like all super-elite athletes, including Barry Bonds and Marion Jones, Floyd is a freak of physique and will. I could double my dosage, shoot up every day, and never ride in his shadow.

So consider what follows just random notes from Jock Culture by a recovering sportswriter.

Denial and Demonization

I do understand my own complicity in the superstars' need for the needle; we -- fans, coaches, parents, owners, media -- demand that they attempt superhuman feats to thrill us, authenticate us, make us rich and proud, and naturally they need superhuman help to satisfy us. (We also want our Whole Foods before they rot, which is why long-haul truck drivers pop speed.)

And we don't want to know about the process. When it's jammed in our faces, when athletes come up "dirty" in testing (or truck drivers jackknife on the interstate), we demand that they be punished and expunged from our fantasies.

This pattern of denial and demonization is our problem, not theirs. Steroid use in sports is a symptom of our disease more than theirs, and a fascinating, if tinted, window on Jock Culture, on its connection to the complicated, dangerous, exhilarating way manhood is measured in America from the field house to the White House.

"Athletes certainly have no ethical dilemma about doing steroids," says Dr. Michael Miletic, a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst whose Detroit-area practice includes high school, college, and professional athletes. "Steroids are totally embedded in the sports culture. We need to get past the finger-pointing. There's been a wholesale abandonment of critical analysis."

There isn't even a solid body of scientific information about performance enhancement in sports to analyze. Exactly which performances are enhanced, and how, and by which anabolic steroids, androgens, human growth hormone, Erythropoietin (EPO), or whatever else athletes shoot, swallow, and sniff? What are the long-term or short-term effects? Are those enhancements and side-effects different for adolescents and adults, for men and women?

And how can we justify teasing out sports performance from all the other ways we try to enhance ourselves?

"Performance-enhancement is in a gray area," says Dr. Robert L. Klitzman, a psychiatrist and faculty associate at Columbia University's Center for Bioethics. "Would you include new technologies to improve cognitive abilities? How about access to SAT prep coaching? Assisted pregnancies?

"It‘s going to get even more complicated as techniques for screening embryos and scanning brains become more sophisticated. Scientists will be looking for stupidity genes and smart pills. Cosmetic psycho-pharmacology is an area where people with money will have advantages over people who don't. Is that fair? In an ideal world there would be a level playing field. Exactly where does cheating begin?"

Cheating begins at the beginning, of course, with our kids.

Enhancing Childhood

I've heard about normal-sized kids getting human growth hormone just to give them a leg up, and I've watched four and five year-olds taking golf and tennis lessons, or racing cars. This is childhood enhancement, the sports equivalent of getting your kid into that pre-school whose starting blocks are on the track to a prep school that feeds Princeton. It makes just as much sense in sports; by pre-adolescence, the competition is fierce and the youngster whose killer instinct hasn't been honed simply won't be advancing to the finals.

My accountant moved to Florida because his eight year-old showed talent on the golf course. He swore he would be doing the equivalent if his son were a whiz at math or the violin. As parents, he insisted, we have a duty to give our kids every chance to discover the limits of their possibilities. No argument there, which makes it harder to argue about the limit of that duty -- and where it becomes child abuse.

Of course, even if as a teenager my accountant's kid bumps up against the limits of his golf game, he'll probably be good enough to be admitted to a selective college that has a golf team, and afterward to work his way up the corporate ladder with joke-a-stroke putts.

Meanwhile, the poor kid who mortgaged his soul for a hoops dream has a lot less to fall back on. As sports reformers keep reminding us, the possibility of a high-school football or basketball player actually playing big-time college ball, much less reaching the pros, is a lottery shot. But coaches, parents, and inner-city educators herd them through school -- and keep them under control -- drugged by the dream. The stereotypical poor jock, who winds up without an education, becomes so much sports trash.

And then we have those little car racers. Since at least the 1950s, quarter-midget and Go-Kart racing as a gearhead little league -- the cars can go 30 miles per hour and up on tiny dirt tracks -- has been a regional phenomenon, primarily in the southeast. In the past half-dozen years, it has followed the NASCAR boom to success. There's serious money, real jobs, and the chance for corporate networking in anything NASCAR-related now, and not just for the drivers on the major and high minor-league circuits. The pit crew that jumps the wall for a top team can make $100,000 each. No wonder those quarter-midget dads have been known to slip illegal additives into their kids' fuel supply.

I recently attended a race where an official pointed out such a dad, whose kid went on to win. But no one wanted to make a fuss and bring down bad publicity. Soon enough, I was told, the kid's victories would lift him into a higher classification and that dad would become some other official's problem. When I asked a few of the officials and crew-chief dads what all this was teaching the youngsters, they looked at me as if I were what I obviously was, a man out of touch.

Jocks and Pukes

At least in car racing, the steroids go into the car, not the athlete. So far at least.

Dr. Miletic, a friend, collaborator, and former Olympic weight-lifter, believes that nobody under twenty-one should take steroids because of the unknown effect on developing bodies and brains, and that far more dangerous to society than adolescent drug-taking is the dividing of youngsters, particularly boys, into jocks and pukes. Both points I agree with.

The first time I heard the word "puke" used as a noun was in 1968. That was the way Columbia's head crew coach, recently returned from stroking a shell along the Saigon River while a Naval officer, described political activists demonstrating against the war, as well as English majors lolling around campus listening to their beards grow.

Just when kids need to be socialized, taught fundamental sports and fitness skills, and made comfortable in their bodies, along comes Little League baseball and PeeWee football to weed and classify them. In typical suburban environments, the sorting is simple enough -- the kids marked as future elite athletes join "travel teams" that soak up resources and attention. Whatever level field once existed in such sports has long since tilted.

However, the kids left behind, the pukes, are still not free to play; they have to keep competing for the crumbs. With less pressure than the travel team members, some of them may actually get more from their experience, but for the most part they will grow up idolizing and resenting the jocks. No wonder the biggest growth in sports has been the so-called fantasy leagues in which mostly men, hooked on their computers, play owner, selecting athletes from actual teams whose actual individual performances will be toted up at season's end to produce on-line winners. While money is often involved, the biggest pay-off seems to be finally getting power over those jocks. What better control then owning them?

But back in high school, when it really counted, the power seemed to be in jock hands. Other kids either identified with them, or became insurgents, in spirit if not action. After the Columbine High School killings with their Jock-Puke overtones, I ran a New York Times Internet forum.

The response was thoughtful, sometimes emotional e-mails, mostly from middle-aged men who remembered high school with pain. Two representative examples:

"When I attended high school, I had so much built-up anger from being treated unfairly that, if I had access to guns or explosives, [I] would have been driven to do similar things to take revenge on the Italian and Irish white bastard jocks who dominated the school and made those 4 years miserable for me. After high school, I was not surprised to hear that a handful of these jocks had either died as a result of drunk driving and drug overdoses, or had spent a little time in jail for violence or drug possession. As for the dead ones, I would probably pee on their graves."

And from a former Jock:

"We really did get special attention both from the students, and from the teachers. We also did cruel things to other students. I have a 20th school anniversary this summer and plan on seeking forgiveness from the people I know I helped terrorize."

The word terrorize took on a different resonance after 9/11, but the values of Jock Culture loomed large even on that day. The firefighters, police officers, and emergency technicians who rushed into the World Trade Center exemplified Jock Culture's most heroic and selfless models; and a majority of the victims who died at work in the Twin Towers were identified as jocks in their obits. Personnel executives I interviewed about that phenomenon admitted that they specifically tried to hire former varsity high school and college athletes for brokerage jobs because they had discipline, were responsive to authority, knew how to overcome setbacks, and were willing to play hurt (come to work sick).

Othello Juiced on the Diamond

Jocks in the work-place, hard-driving and superficially fraternal, often mimic the postures of their big-league role models. Yet the baleful mask of the pro athlete's game face is not only there to intimidate opponents; it's also a defense against inner fears. Athletes have been taught to appear invulnerable, to repress emotion, to never, ever let ‘em see you sweat, much less show panic or pain.

This is why for so many pro athletes, with their shallow marriages, false friendships, and dysfunctional family relationships, the only places where true emotion can freely emerge are the locker-room and the playing field. There, they can finally hug and cry. For many, these are the only times they feel truly alive, and one can understand how they might be tempted to do anything to stay in the arena, including drugs. It isn't only about bulking up to win games; it's also about staying strong to survive in the game, their comfort zone, their home.

Consider poor Barry Bonds, the Othello of the sports drama. (His Desdemona was fame.) Barry was raised a prince, the son of a star (Bobby), the godson of a superstar (Willie Mays), and he definitely proved himself worthy. Lean and apparently drug-free, Barry was arguably the greatest player of his generation, but one day the crowd's affection and the home-run records began flowing to a swollen, surly, red-headed meatball named Mark McGwire who was clearly on the juice. So Barry, with an aging and wounded back and bad knees, seemingly decided to level the field by getting some, too.

Now, I don't much like Barry. Once, he so frustrated me during an interview that I appealed to his dad, who just shrugged and said he had the same problems. Barry's moral character makes him a poor role model for the sportswriters who are jumping all over him now that he's down. I wonder if they're making up for having never noticed all the steroid side effects in locker-rooms the past ten years. (Actually, serious steroid use, particularly in Olympic events, goes back to the days when I was reporting, so you can blame me, too.)

Barry didn't start taking steroids -- if he did: no proof yet -- to enslave our children or to mock all fans outside San Francisco or even to bury Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron. He did it because he wanted to stay in the locker-room and on the field, and he wanted to be the best. He did exactly what he had been trained to do as a Jock Warrior, pushing himself and the boundaries, winning ugly, even cheating, if necessary.

The media has had a tougher time beating up on Marion Jones, described by Harvey Araton, one of our best sports columnists, as "the elegant sprinter with the sweet, crooked smile" who engendered in him "wishful -- and probably blind -- subjectivity" (even as her husband, boyfriend, coach, and running mates were nailed as drug cheaters). Jones was a track-and-field princess even when her body became ever more princely in muscle definition. She reminded me of Florence Griffith-Joyner, who died of a seizure in her sleep in 1998, ten years after setting an Olympic record in the 100 meters. FloJo, who also associated with drug mavens, was widely suspected of steroid use as her muscles bloomed. Jones, who returned to the track after giving birth three years ago, was never caught with steroids; the test that temporarily did her in was for EPO, a red blood-booster that enhances stamina. But the confirming test came up negative and she was off the hook, avoiding a two-year suspension but not raised eyebrows, including mine.

Crossing Up the Duke of Wellington

That we pretend to care about chemical performance-enhancers in sports seems hypocritical and diverting, and perhaps the last gasp of the character-building that we once claimed for sports. The Duke of Wellington's declaration that the Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton became, in nineteenth and early twentieth century America, a slogan of the secular religion of amateurism, of young men joyously playing games that prepared them for war and factory work. As amateurism was devalued, the new cult of mid-twentieth century professionalism offered a promise of class mobility, of young men loosed from the rural mines and the urban slums to play college ball and maybe even become major league millionaires. But athletic stars were still "role models" for youth because the supposed meritocracy of sports and the inherent fairness of games made them morally superior to the actors, musicians, and celebrities who merely entertained us.

But as sports crossed-over into manufactured televised spectacle and athletes became rappers with muscles, our games seemed to become a way of distracting us from work and war, an opiate instead of an inspiration. The Super Bowl became as much a part of the cultural landscape as the Academy Awards, its half-time variety show a coveted showcase. Jocks were just a bigger breed of show-biz celeb, similarly insulated by agents, publicists, posses, bodyguards.

Fans grumbled at their perceived ingratitude for their rich, easy, charmed lives. The media ran their salary charts and their police reports alongside box scores. The professional witnesses, led by ESPN, affected an ironic tone, appearing to distance themselves from the hype while wallowing in it: Yesssss, this is great fun; we're en fuego, dudes, but let's not take it too seriously, only 24/7.

Athletes were swept along with their industry. As the ideals of sportsmanship (often elitist and hypocritical as they were) gave way to the tactics of gamesmanship, as totally dominating your opponent became the ultimate test of victory, as cutting corners, intimidation, and living large became marks of the winning style, Jock Culture developed new values and definitions that spread into the larger culture of politics and big business. (Or, as the sports apologists claimed, societal values leaked into the leagues.)

Whatever, dude. So why should we -- Botox'ed, Viagra'ed, silconed -- be surprised that athletes are enhancing themselves, too? And why should we care?

On one level, I don't. The jock's capital has always been his body, and he should be free to spend and invest it. Policing that should be a function of the team dynamic. It is very telling that athletes, as competitive and violent as they can be in every aspect of their lives, have not dispensed locker-room justice to the steroid-users who are presumably tilting the playing field and stealing jobs from team-mates who stay clean. Obviously, most everybody is using drugs. That genie is out of the bottle.

Where Dr. Miletic and I feel great concern, however, is in the unregulated use of performance enhancers on the high-school level, where thousands of kids whose minds and bodies are still in stages of vulnerable development are taking drugs with the complicity of parents and coaches. Test them, we say. Clean up that generation, then you can gasbag about Barry Bonds.

"I don't believe kids are taking steroids because they think it helped Barry Bonds," says Dr. Miletic. "They're taking it because team-mates, opponents, a strength coach, a gym owner is telling them it will make them better. And often it will. I'm more worried about other drugs. Diuretics can kill you quickly. And pain killers not only mask athletic injuries that should be attended to, they offer an addictive high."

Steroids offer a high, too, a more subtle feeling of wellness, of strength, of optimism that is best understood in its absence. I've been shooting steroids for almost fifteen years, since a third cancer operation left me unable to produce testosterone naturally. Once a month, I nail one of my quadriceps with a 22- gauge needle and pump in the oily yellow fluid. Without it, my prescribing surgeon tells me, I would be physically fatigued and mentally sluggish, lose my sex drive, be achy and depressed. And I certainly wouldn't be pedaling up the Ram Island hill yelling "Floyd Landis" to give me a boost.

No question I'm taking a performance-enhancing drug -- and one that seems as cutting edge as that old friend penicillin, as this steroid summer turns chilly and quaint. In England, according to London's Sunday Times, a number of top soccer players have been "storing stem cells from their newborn babies as a potential future treatment for their own career-threatening sports injuries."

Now they tell us. Maybe that could have helped Floyd's hip or Barry's damaged back and knee, or Marion's post-partum blues. Our blues, too.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 28, 2007, 10:53pm | #

Those guys would work hard at devising any way to win in violation of both the spirit and the letter of the rules.

That don't make it right, it's still agin' the rules.

BTW, SIV, I bet cock fighting has rules.....

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 28, 2007, 10:57pm | #

Those guys would work hard at devising any way to win in violation of both the spirit and the letter of the rules.

I'm not that up on mid-level (Grand National Division) NASCAR but I do know that if you win the race, they're gonna tear your 350 down to make sure it ain't a 383.

Neu Mejican | July 28, 2007, 11:06pm | #

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/25/duprat.php

Check this out for the artsy fartsy version of enhancement. . .

Really cool, I think

Neu Mejican | July 28, 2007, 11:11pm | #

I would hate to wonder into a open mic night when word bomb was in the house.

Neu mejican | July 28, 2007, 11:18pm | #

or wander.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 12:10am | #

Ewwwww!

Enhancement?

BTW, get some rain today NM?

joshua corning | July 29, 2007, 12:43am | #

open thread?

Democrats are those that benefit from a particular social order at the expense of all others.

don't believe me?

"I'm going to be asking a new generation to serve," she said. "I think just like our military academies, we need to give a totally all-paid education to young men and women who will serve their country in a public service position."

Jemez Hobbit | July 29, 2007, 12:54am | #

BTW, get some rain today NM?

.. today was supposed to be the heaviest rain day of the week but only got a few sprinkles at my place (north-central mountains)

.. Hobbit

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 12:59am | #

So, Mr Hobbit, is that where you take the name Jemez?

Dude, I am drinking the most fab-u-los-oh wine.........

Cantina Zaccagnini

I just know I was Italian in another life.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 1:00am | #

It'd be worth moving to New Mexico or Tucson just to get those summer thunderstorms.

joshua corning | July 29, 2007, 1:04am | #

I just know I was Italian in another life.

A you sure you are not?

Rome pretty much stomped on every white people who ended up speaking english....

Ken Shultz | July 29, 2007, 2:26am | #

"I commented to the Little Woman, as we were driving to WalMart: I seriously doubt sports is any crookeder or sleazier or whatever now, than it has ever been."

Ruthless is right.

I think the difference is drug testing, the war on drugs, etc. Other generations didn't have to contend with that. ...What was the name of that guy who threw a no-hitter on acid?

...drug testing is hurting professional sports like nothing else can. How many of the bad stories we hear are about so and so getting pulled over and searched for drugs and taken in and forced to get tested, whatever...

The league should try to abandon drug testing for their own good. Sure they'll take some heat for it, but they're making themselves look so bad. ...is testing mandated by congress? I thought they stopped short of that.

If we're really worried about influencing the kids, and athletes are going to continue to use such substances proportionately in line with other homo sapiens, wouldn't it be just as well if the kids didn't have their heroes laid low?

...Am I better off for Dexter Manley having been drummed out of the NFL? I don't think so. (Whether society is better off for sentencing Manley to four years in prison on a simple possession charge is another rhetorical question entirely.)

My understanding is that it's a trend in corporate America too--limit yourself to people who didn't have any fun in their twenties and you're probably eliminating some highly qualified candidates.

Ken Shultz | July 29, 2007, 2:34am | #

"What was the name of that guy who threw a no-hitter on acid?"

Dock Ellis

http://www.houstonpress.com/2005-06-23/news/high-times/

Peter Bagge | July 29, 2007, 4:37am | #

Okay, let's all agree that it's totally fine for baseball players to use steroids -- especially since there was no written rule prohibiting it in the MLB in the first place. That being the case, why does Bonds and literally every other major league player insist they never knowingly took steroids? What are they so afraid of, seeing that it was (is?) both legal AND that they did indeed take it to break records that we all enjoyed watched being broken? And if Joe Six-Pack is so against it, why is HE still going to MLB games in record numbers, while paying record prices for tickets, parking and hot dogs?

I suggest we all hold a nationwide hypocrite parade that we ALL march in, with no one watching! While on steroids! And Barry Bonds can carry me when I get tired!

RC | July 29, 2007, 5:42am | #

Doping in sports surely isn't inherently immoral, but, as several posters have already argued, winning and losing doesn't mean shit if you're cheating. If baseball doesn't allow steroid use now (regardless of the MLB's past positions), then a player who uses steroids is breaking his commitment to play by the rules and the expectations of fans who believe they're watching a fair game.

Maybe performance enhancing drugs are the wave of the future. If so, those who support them should put their money where their mouths are and either (1) push MLB to change their rules or (2) start their own damn league where doping is fine. Either way, the league has the right to set whatever rules it wants, and whoever breaks them is cheating.

Sheesh. And I thought private ownership actually meant something around here.

wayne | July 29, 2007, 5:54am | #

"What was the name of that guy who threw a no-hitter on acid?"

Dock Ellis

http://www.houstonpress.com/2005-06-23/news/high-times/"

Wow, this is news to me. Maybe Tim Leary's motto should be, "Tune in, turn on, pop out"...

oldnumberseven | July 29, 2007, 6:00am | #

Are there any good sports writers anymore? It seems to me they no longer want to tell the story of the game, but would rather interject themselves into the story as often as possible. ESPN does not help matters either.

oldnumberseven | July 29, 2007, 6:07am | #

RC | July 29, 2007, 5:42am
...
Either way, the league has the right to set whatever rules it wants, and whoever breaks them is cheating.

Bonds has never failed a drug test, take it for what it is worth, neither did Lance Armstrong. There will never be any competition to MLB in the form of a doping league. MLB would not allow the competition. The owners own the game, and would never allow a start up league. One might think Congress would revoke MLB anti-trust clause, over that, but I doubt it would happen. Hell, look at microsoft.

P Brooks | July 29, 2007, 8:29am | #

If it's not worth cheating for, it's not worth having. -W C Fields

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 9:02am | #

The Leftist reaction to the Scott Thomas Beauchamp / Elspeth Reeve story is unfolding according to the script that the Left always follows.

The doubt people expressed in the truthfulness of the stories was countered with: See! He exists! He revealed his last name and military people found him on AKO! So, everything he said is true because you doubted his existence.

The next bit of Left-of-hand came with the existence of child graves in Iraq as “proof” that soldiers commonly desecrate them. I am sure the rational folk around here will see the error in that process. Private Second Class Scott Thomas Beauchamp also mentioned digging in dirt a lot. Next defense will be confirmation of dirt in Iraq is proof that he is telling the truth.

The Private is under investigation now and there are indications that he had some other issues going on. His current grade of PV2 is, as they say, his “second appointment” in that grade. Expect the Left, especially the prominent ones, to blame military harassment for all of this soldier’s bad deeds.

Expect that when the investigation concludes that the Private is not clean as driven snow, the Leftist will cry of scapegoating. If anything he said was actually true, expect the cries of “cover up” when his buddies are prosecuted. Happened with Abu Ghraib, will probably happen here too.

All that aside, I suspect that if we ever hear anything about what was going on for real inside TNR, like the drafts of the stories before editing, we will discover that the original set of tall tales morphed into the published work through a heavy dose of Fairbanksing.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 9:05am | #

And if you're not interested in that topic, then fire away on whatever floats your boat.

Doesn't firing on boats tend to make them stop floating?

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 9:07am | #

It's like running a 383 stroker Chevy motor, which looks exactly like a 350 from the outside, in the 350 class.

Isn't this why the whole bracket racing thing came about?

robc | July 29, 2007, 9:27am | #

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that nothing Bonds has been accused of doing was actually against the rules of baseball at the time he supposedly did it. Is that not the case?

That is not the case. Steroids have been against the rules in baseball since at least 1991. There was just no testing, then lax testing for a while. Also the penalties were minor until just recently.

On June 7, 1991, commissioner Fay Vincent sent a memo to each team and the players union that stated: "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids."

So, at least since June of 1991, any drug that was illegal was also a violation of baseball's rules.


Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 9:52am | #

Idunno, I thonk you could give all the steroids you like to the entire reason staff and all of us commentors and none of us hit 700 homers in a lifetime. Well, execpt maybe David.

P Brooks | July 29, 2007, 9:52am | #

The Bush administration is preparing to ask Congress to approve an arms sale package for Saudi Arabia and its neighbors that is expected to total $20 billion over the next decade at a time when some U.S. officials contend that the Saudis are playing a counterproductive role in Iraq.

U.S. officials said the plan to bolster the militaries of Persian Gulf countries is part of a U.S. strategy to contain the growing power of Iran in the region and to demonstrate that, no matter what happens in Iraq, Washington remains committed to its longtime Arab allies in the region.

The proposed package of advanced weaponry for Saudi Arabia, which includes advanced satellite-guided bombs, upgrades to its fighters and new naval vessels, has made Israel and some of its supporters in Congress nervous.

Senior officials who described the package on Friday said they believed the administration has now resolved those concerns, in part by promising Israel $30.4 billion in military aid for over the next decade, a significant increase over what Israel has received in the past 10 years.

.....

Along with the announcement of formal talks with Persian Gulf allies on the arms package, Rice is planning to outline the new 10-year agreement to provide military aid to Israel, as well as a similar agreement with Egypt. The $30.4 billion being promised to Israel is $9.1 billion more than Israel has received over the past decade, a nearly 43 percent increase.



http://www.mercurynews.com/nationworld/ci_6486928

This does not exactly make me feel safer.

Fluffy | July 29, 2007, 10:04am | #

Guy, first of all, fuck you. The only reason any "defense" of Beauchamp has been "shifting" is because the bullshit the pro-torture, pro-war, pro-blowing-Dubya blogosphere has been coming up with to try to discredit the article has been shifting. When losers like you come up with a different bullshit reason to try to claim the article is false every day, OF COURSE the articles debunking your garbage is going to "shift". First lying douchebags tried to say he didn't exist - and they were proven wrong. Then they tried to say the things he described couldn't have happened - and they were proven wrong. Now they're reduced to trying to claim that the stories may be true, but Beauchamp is a bad soldier for providing those stories to TNR. When the world's biggest cocksucking douchebag, Hugh Hewitt, is on your side, it's time to get a new side.

Grand Chalupa | July 29, 2007, 10:14am | #

The Saudis will need the weapons in the upcoming civil war with Al-Qaida. If that country blows up, we sure as hell can't send troops. You think Iraq draws a lot of foreign fighters? Wait till we're killing Muslims on the holy land.

Fluffy | July 29, 2007, 10:14am | #

With regard to the steroids debate, there are lots of legal and ethical questions here that have been covered in the thread pretty well, but one that has only been marginally touched on - the question of what constitutes an "enhancement" that is even asterisk-worthy in the first place.

Gillespie's original post points out that this isn't really as simple as everyone seems to assume.

The whole "juice" debate seems to imply that there is some sort of "inherent athlete" that one "really and truly" is, and that adding steroids to the mix transforms you into something that is no longer that "inherent athlete" and that your performance after this transformation is thereby falsified. I don't see how this can be supported. It is, in fact, the distant echo of the argument against using anesthetics for surgery, when you think about it. Or the argument against any medical intervention in human life at all.

There is no "inherent athlete" lurking inside us as a potentiality. Or at least, there's no way to identify it. Your athletic potential is contingent upon a thousand different things that are dependent on the historical period you live in, the culture, cuisine and hygiene of your country of residence, the social stature of your family, etc. Whether Lance Armstrong did steroids or not, his performance was already "enhanced" by the fact that had he lived 50 or 60 years ago he would have died of cancer and never lived to race at all. The diet, training systems, and sports medicine available to athletes today makes virtually every statistic an "asterisked" one if you get right down to it. But that's one reason why all records are made to be broken.

Grand Chalupa | July 29, 2007, 10:22am | #

Guy Montag,

You seem to be the only one here who hates the leftists almost as much as I do.

The Bush administration may have led us into Iraq senselessly, and Democrats are better on drug war, but God I still fucking hate liberals.

I think you do too, and I appreciate that.

Grand Chalupa | July 29, 2007, 10:25am | #

Guy,

I know about Glass, Siegel and Scott Thomas, but what happened with Fairbanks?

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 10:30am | #

Fluffy,

Guy, first of all, fuck you.

Sorry, I am just not into you. That whole trash-keyboard thing is such a turnoff and I am not even on your team. Try courting Lee Seigel.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 10:34am | #

GC,

Google is your friend :)

She has been a 'blog verb for almost a year now.

mk | July 29, 2007, 10:45am | #

I used to be against steroids as a knee-jerk reaction and I have argued the point here before.

In the meantime, a bit of experience has changed my attitude. Multiple contusions, exhaustion, and aching joints and limbs were a large part of my recent forays into sport (indoor soccer). I wish I had had some steroids to help me recover; perhaps I wouldn't have given it up after finding myself laid out for the second time in a month.

"Medical intervention" is exactly what it is. Athletes still have to work out and practice just as they would do without the help. No pill can make muscle and no pill can give you skill where none existed before. A lot of sports inevitably lead to injury. Some are meant to include injury. Pressuring athletes to damage themselves and then not allowing them to use whatever means are out there to heal is a bit sadistic.

SIV | July 29, 2007, 10:50am | #

The Bush administration may have led us into Iraq senselessly, and Democrats are better on drug war, but God I still fucking hate liberals.


I remain unconvinced.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 10:59am | #

I don't hate Leftists, I just disagree with them, sometimes quite strongly.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 10:59am | #

She has been a 'blog verb for almost a year

Longer than that and while MS has managed to get google into the spell checker, typing blog still sets off the OOOO GAHHHH horn. Just try using google as a verb in Word. Good Gravy, it's nearly 2008.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 11:12am | #

Here is the problem with hating lefties: Their politics suck but some of them are pretty cool people to hang around with. Easy to hate the Daily Kos not so easy to hate the chick sitting across the table from you that you've known half your life. She's sharing wine, laughing in all the right places, and asking about your kids. Hard to hate her. At least until she starts in on banning hand guns. :-)

Being friend's with a liberal is like being friends with a cop.

[sigh]

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 11:18am | #

Isn't this why the whole bracket racing thing came about?

I believe so, yes. Makes it interesting and competitive at the Wednesday Night Grudge Races.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 11:18am | #

At least until she starts in on banning hand guns.

Or what I should be allowed to eat, or where smoking should be allowed, or what I should be smoking, or . . .

Mr. Nice Guy | July 29, 2007, 11:19am | #

"The Bush administration may have led us into Iraq senselessly, and Democrats are better on drug war, but God I still fucking hate liberals.


I remain unconvinced."

We,, not that Singularly Idiotic Voice would be convinced with facts or that he cares one bit about ending the drug war, its more likely he just wants to make sure libertarians don't notice how egregious his beloved Republicans are on this issue.
But.
No major party supports drug legalization. The only way to get an idea of which is "better" on drugs is to look at issues around the margin, like medical marijuana. And there is no contest there, the Dems are much more libertarian.
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/495/congressional_medical_marijuana_vote_the_details
Also, "liberal" organizations (not awlays the same as "Democrat"), like the ACLU, advocate putting a serious dent in the drug war. I'm not aware of any non-libertarian conservative org that thinks the same.

Pro Libertate | July 29, 2007, 11:21am | #

The Democrats are most assuredly not better on the War on Drugs™. There's no difference in the conduct of that "war" between 2007 and 1997.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 11:25am | #

Speaking of racin', the Nextel race starts sometime after 1400 Eastern today. Anybody going to be near the Crystal City Sports Pub in Arlington, VA? Might be watching it on level 2 if it is open (level 1 if not) and might even get the sound if the lovely bartender, Amy, gets enough requests.

As for my recent dream of a 440 in my '72 'hybrid' Charger, that anin't in the budget for quite some time :(

P Brooks | July 29, 2007, 11:27am | #

"Being friend's with a liberal is like being friends with a cop."

And you wouldn't want your daughter to marry either of them.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 11:28am | #

The Democrats are most assuredly not better on the War on Drugs™. There's no difference in the conduct of that "war" between 2007 and 1997.

Personally, I find the "war on drugs" to be a big waste of resources, if the drugs are the only objective.

I am all for it when it is removing an income source from Marxist rebels and/or other assorted undesirables.

P Brooks | July 29, 2007, 11:31am | #

"Speaking of racin', the Nextel race starts sometime after 1400 Eastern today. Anybody going to be near the Crystal City Sports Pub in Arlington, VA?"

I can see the Interstate from my deck, if I squint; same thing. Taxicab "racing" at the Speedway? Bah! Pffft!

iih | July 29, 2007, 11:34am | #

Here's a thought provoking question:

Freedom of Speech vs. Trespassing Speech

A couple of days ago there was a thread about urinals in China that take some interesting (to say the least) forms and shapes. (See: http://www.reason.com/blog/show/121643.html#comments).

On the discussion board, very quickly the discussion turned into attacks on religion (specifically Christianity and at least one was on Islam's prophet). Some of these comments were, lets say, less than intellectual or have any form of good taste (in my viewpoint).

So here is the point I wish to debate by way of an extreme version of the right to bear arms (see latest Reason issue): If I owned a bazooka, I am free (according to Libertarian ideals) to use it as I will as long as I do not trespass over others' freedoms, rights, and property (e.g., fire it all I want in the middle of the Nevada desert). Now here is a debate question that I wish to hear what people think of: if I think of my speech as my bazooka and freedom of speech as the right to own a bazooka. Now in the abstract world of ideas and beliefs, my belief is my own abstract property that is protected by the freedom of religion. So in essence I have a domain in which no one has the right to trespass.

Aside from the fact that personal, non-argumentative attacks on religion (or lack thereof for that matter), as opposed to legitimate concerns and debates, is usually unfruitful and a simple waste of breath as any (really) hate speech is, does one's free speech give him/her the right to trespass others' beliefs and sensibilities? "But I have the right to free speech" one would ask, "and I have the right to say whatever and whenever I want, regardless of others. To that I would say: "Well you have the right to fire your gun from a public space (say the desert), but what if the bullet ends up in my living room? You have the right to fire your gun outside my property (or, say whatever you feel like saying), but it ended up in a domain that I own (my abstract domain of "belief", respectively).

I raise this question because, as libertarians, we are not necessarily against established religions or belief systems, including atheism ("the free market will determine which ones will eventually survive" would be the libertarian response) . But sometimes, as one can see in the above-mentioned discussion regarding the urinals and the virgin Marry), some libertarians are so willing to express nonsensical attacks (even for humor) that does nothing but offend others. Do libertarians want to alienate people with both religious and libertarian beliefs? Imagine that the huge numbers of Evangelical Christians discover/rediscover their libertarian roots, wouldn't that be good for the libertarian movement? Isn't libertarianism really nothing but a set of ideals that is capable of placing under its membership canopy the largest number of people regardless of their creed?

Just some thoughts.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 11:36am | #

I'm not aware of any non-libertarian conservative org that thinks the same.

For at least fifteen years Wm F Buckley (and by extension NR when he was at the helm) has held that the drug war is lost and at a very minimum pot should be legalized. As a matter of policy, he believes serious study should be done to figure out what the true effects of drug legalization would be and privately he believes that drugs should be legalized.

The left abandoned the drug issue in 1975.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 11:37am | #

And you wouldn't want your daughter to marry either of them.

Amen, brother.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 11:41am | #

TWC,

WFB and NR are libertarian leaning, in that Goldwater way.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 11:42am | #

...we are not necessarily against established religions

What? Didn't you have to sign that secret oath to persecute Christians when you logged in?

Do libertarians want to alienate people with both religious and libertarian beliefs?

For the most part, the answer is yes they do.

Libertarians tend to be very tolerant of liberals who share some libertarian values but alos hold certain beliefs that are hostile to libertarian values. Libertarians generally do not afford the same consideration to Holy Rollers.

See? That was simple.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 11:45am | #

WFB and NR are libertarian leaning, in that Goldwater way.

Not everybody around here would agree with that although I tend to.

Point was that Mr Nice Guy was saying he wasn't aware of any conservative organization that was good on the drug war. If you Google define conservative your going to get a photo of William F Buckley.

Grand Chalupa | July 29, 2007, 11:54am | #

Here is the problem with hating lefties: Their politics suck but some of them are pretty cool people to hang around with. Easy to hate the Daily Kos not so easy to hate the chick sitting across the table from you that you've known half your life. She's sharing wine, laughing in all the right places, and asking about your kids. Hard to hate her.

Are you talking about liberal activists or people who are basically apolitical but list "liberal" under political beliefs on facebook?

I prefer friends who don't give a shit about politics. Either that or military guys, who are patriotic and self reliant. I've found that actual liberal activists (there are a lot of them on my campus), are some of the most unplesant people in the world to be around. Their way of looking at the world screams to me that everybody in the world is either a victim or a victimizer, all human existence is without dignity, and we should demand equality by bringing us all down to the level of the most pathetic members of our species. Those who call themselves liberal just because they think it means you are pro-a good time are easier to swallow.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 11:55am | #

Has anybody here rebuilt a Torqueflight 727? Can it be accomplished by mere mortals rather than those rocket-scientist transmission techs?

iih | July 29, 2007, 11:56am | #

The Wine Commonsewer®:

Sure, but you are not addressing the main point of the question: Does someone has the absolute right to use his/her speech to attack (not "argue with", but "attack") and trespass others' religious sensibilities? Is it good for the discourse and the libertarian image and/or political strength in society?

P Brooks | July 29, 2007, 11:59am | #

Automatic transmissions are the work of the Devil.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 12:14pm | #

iih,

Sounds like you are talking about 'attacking' an idea, not a person, with words. I don't see anything wrong with that at all.

Unfortunatly, those attackers spiral downwards into something like Fluffy posted @ 1004.

herodotus | July 29, 2007, 12:17pm | #

The expulsion of Michael Rasmussen for the Tour de France was the nastiest act yet taken in this craze for 'cleanliness' in sports.

No one proved a damn thing against him. All that needed to happen was for someone to say that they knew someone who said that they saw him in a different place than where he said he was when he WASN'T EVEN TRAINING, much less competing. (Professional cyclists must let cycling authorities know where they are at all times. Apparantly they are allowed no privacy at all in these matters.)

He has never failed a doping test, and his performance has been quite consistent over his career. Yet when he was finally set to win the tour, someone leaks this lame story, and his team drops him. Just to prove that they are 'clean'.

Anti-drug sentiment is quickly becoming the new anti-semitism.

Creepy shit

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 12:21pm | #

herodotus,

Scooter Libby was convicted the same way. So was Martha Stewart.

iih | July 29, 2007, 12:29pm | #

Guy Montag,

Yes, indeed, what fluffy posted at 10:04 is exactly the kind of thing I have in mind. But, moreover, my concern is that when it comes to religion, there seems to be a general sentiment of disrespect towards religion in general. Is that helpful to the libertarian movement in general?

Another example, in recent discussions regarding Ron Paul, there were voices on this forum (and I do realize that not every person on this forum is necessarily libertarian -- and there are impostors) that criticized RP for his stance on the illegality of abortion (which has supporting arguments that are libertarian as well as religious, but both agree on the outcome -- that abortion is illegal). Some of the sentiments expressed in the discussion were primarily personal anti-religious, as opposed to being based on any intellectual merit. I realize that not all libertarians (as the rest of their fellow human beings who are not libertarian) are intellectually capable, but the consequences are not helpful to the cause.

Tom | July 29, 2007, 12:34pm | #

Soccer could ban flopping--no they couldn't.

Actually, yes they could:

Fifa president Sepp Blatter "foreshadowed further moves to be made against faking injuries, during matches.

"He said a player whose injury, supposed or real, requires a stoppage to the game, may have to remain off the field for a period of about five minutes.

" 'The expulsion for five minutes could be a good solution, but you would need timekeepers on the bench,' Blatter said. 'It will be back on the agenda next year, at the end of February or start of March when the board will meet again.

" 'Definitely something has to be done,' he said."

J sub D | July 29, 2007, 12:39pm | #

but one that has only been marginally touched on - the question of what constitutes an "enhancement" that is even asterisk-worthy in the first place.
An excellant point there, Fluffy. Is that titanium steel pin holding your wrist/knee/ankle/fill in the blank together an unfair or immoral artificial enhancement? How about eyeglasses/contact lenses? People blessed with 20/10 vision could reasonably argue that artificial vision enhancement violates the ethics of pure competition.

Aside form the complexities of all of that, I've got to say I support congressional hearings into baseball steroiids 'cause it keeps the goombahs busy, thus hindering screwing up something that really affects life in these united states.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 12:57pm | #

Speaking of the intellectually incapable, looks like Paul McLeary at the Columbia Journalism Review is bucking for the next open keyboard at The Nation.

First he accuses the majority of the military blogging community of never serving in the military.

Then he imagines that Private Second Class Scott Thomas Beauchamp joined the military to serve his country. Two facts (1) that soldier has a title, it should be used appropriately (2) by PV2 Beauchamp’s own words he joined to write a book.

The whole thing reads like a teenage tantrum without profanity.

Love this bit opening paragraph two: This childish game of name-calling, mostly led by the know-nothing . . .

Or farther down, this: While there are some very legitimate questions about what Beauchamp wrote, nothing, it's worthy of note, has been proved false yet.

Love that crafty wording. I guess the square bullet business, being able to see dogs to the right of a Bradley from the driver's compartment and the other things that have been brought out are not quite noteworthy enough for this fellow.

Seems we are getting closer to "dirt is proof of . . ." defense that I mentioned earlier in this thread.

J sub D | July 29, 2007, 12:59pm | #

my concern is that when it comes to religion, there seems to be a general sentiment of disrespect towards religion in general.
As I excitedly raise my hand-

Yes, I disrespect religion on a regular basis. I disrespect astrolology adherents, flat earthers, UFO nutcases and all other doctrines that have no valid evidence to back them up. No, "faith" is not evidence.

That said, religious people are certainly welcome in the libertarian movement. Freedom of religion is a core principle of a libertarian philosophy. Be advised that all opinions, religious or otherwise, will be attacked, dissected and ridiculed in this forum. Overly sensitive people are strongly advised to go elsewhere. I recoommend wearing asbestos underwear while posting on Hit & Run as a precaution.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 1:06pm | #

Does someone has the absolute right to use his/her speech to attack (not "argue with", but "attack") and trespass others' religious sensibilities?

Yes

Is it good for the discourse and the libertarian image and/or political strength in society?

No

A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.

SIV | July 29, 2007, 1:11pm | #

I'm not aware of any non-libertarian conservative org that thinks the same.

Any conservative figure or org that advocates a change in drug policy away from the "war" will be called "libertarian".

Heres a few individuals
name some Dems of equal prominence

Clarence Thomas
James Baker
George schultz
the previous Governor of New Mexico

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 1:15pm | #

.....titanium steel pin holding your wrist/knee/ankle/fill in the blank together an unfair or immoral artificial enhancement?.....

Excellent point but raging debate aside, if a titanium steel pin violates the rules then x-rays are in order.

Not that I care, mind you. MLB is not the government. If steel pins are cool and steroids aren't, well, so be it. If the guys who play and the guys who own decide differently, well, that's okay too.

That is not to say that we can't piss and moan about the DH rule or playing night games, or sign stealing, or the big ass strike zone they had for a while, or Bonds and his apparent use of, ahhh, enhancers.

Just that whether a rule is appropriate or not is up to MLB.

Neu Mejican | July 29, 2007, 1:16pm | #

Grande C,

Their way of looking at the world screams to me that everybody in the world is either a victim or a victimizer, all human existence is without dignity, and we should demand equality by bringing us all down to the level of the most pathetic members of our species.

Don't be so coy.
Just say it.

Neu Mejican | July 29, 2007, 1:19pm | #

So what's up this weekend with the partisan ranting...

Even for H&R, the level of "the problem with ____________(group of people painted with a broad brush) is that the are _____________(lame hyperbole)" is over the top.

Guy Montag | July 29, 2007, 1:21pm | #

NM,

That's just the way all of those Lefties talk ;)

Neu Mejican | July 29, 2007, 1:22pm | #

SIV,

Jimmy Carter

If Gary Johnson gets points for talk and no action, then so does Carter.

Neu Mejican | July 29, 2007, 1:23pm | #

Guy M,

Self parody?

;^)

iih | July 29, 2007, 1:29pm | #

The Wine Commonsewer®

"Does someone has the absolute right to use his/her speech to attack (not "argue with", but "attack") and trespass others' religious sensibilities?

Yes"

Do you have the absolute right to trespass others' properties? If not, do you differentiate between physical and abstract/intellectual/religious domains?

But you make a good point. Unbounded free speech does come at a cost (alienation of others' who may be attracted to libertarian ideals but are are offended, not by the quality of the arguments, but by the lack of respect they may receive).

J Sub D:

"Freedom of religion is a core principle of a libertarian philosophy."

Agreed.

"Be advised that all opinions, religious or otherwise, will be attacked, dissected and ridiculed in this forum."

Agreed except for the "ridiculed" part. I think satirical discourse over religion (a la Stephen Colbert for example) is acceptable. But ridicule for the sole purpose of ridicule and offending others is counterproductive.

"Overly sensitive people are strongly advised to go elsewhere. I recoommend wearing asbestos underwear while posting on Hit & Run as a precaution."

Is that your statement or H&R's? This is exactly the kind of statement, if taken seriously (and I do not!), that may reduce the quality and reputation of the H&R forum (and, consequently, in some part the entire libertarian image).

P Brooks | July 29, 2007, 1:34pm | #

" if a titanium steel pin violates the rules then x-rays are in order. "

What, then, of titanium exhaust valves?

"Enhancements" of athletic performance take many forms. Remember the Olympians' hysteria over professionalism? Isn't a military sinecure for Soviet hockey players which allows them to devote their lives to the game (and thereby provides them with an advantage over American boys putting in their forty hours down at the sawmill) unfair?

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 1:42pm | #

iih | July 29, 2007, 1:29pm

Course free speech may come with consequences like those whiny flag burners that occasionally get popped in the jaw by burly men who say grace and listen to Toby Keith songs.

You provoke just the kind of rage your looking to provoke and then complain about the consequences. Course, if you burn the flag in your back yard, nobody would notice.

SIV | July 29, 2007, 1:47pm | #

Jimmy Carter campaigned as a decrim Drug War moderate.As President he "had a change of heart".

Here is a quote of him defending the War:

Marijuana happens to be an illicit drug that's included under the overall drug control program, and I favor this program very strongly.

he was referring to spraying marijuana with paraquat, an herbicide believed at the time to be highly toxic to pot smokers.

Neu Mejican | July 29, 2007, 1:47pm | #

But TWC,

Freedom of speech really isn't about talking to yourself, is it...

SIV,

To expand on the Gary Johnson/Carter examples.

Johnson...waits until he's lame-duck gov. to start talking about drugs.

Carter, uses decriminalization as part of his platform to get the Democratic Nomination/elected president.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 1:47pm | #

Isn't a military sinecure for Soviet hockey players which allows them to devote their lives to the game (and thereby provides them with an advantage over American boys putting in their forty hours down at the sawmill) unfair?

Sure is. Something even more unfair? The days when American pros were banned from Olympic competition. And you know what happened? Eventually the Olympian Gods decreed that American pros could compete.

Hmmm. Titanium valves. LOL. I don't think they are against the rules. :-)

Neu Mejican | July 29, 2007, 1:50pm | #

The point of this being that neither party has done much on the WOD...in terms of scaling back or ending it.

So why pretend that your preferred party, the republicans, are any better. Unless you are just being partisan?

Neu Mejican | July 29, 2007, 1:51pm | #

That last one was for

SIV

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 1:53pm | #

NM, correctomundo, free speech means getting to say what you want without being jailed for it. However, I agree with Rand on this one. The right of free speech does not include the use of a tax-paid megaphone.

The Wine Commonsewer® | July 29, 2007, 1:56pm | #

NM, The GOP is terrible on WOD. But the original comment that spawned this essentially said that there were no conservatives or conservative orgs that were good on WOD. That isn't true. And several of us named several conservative republican types to make our case.

Neu Mejican | July 29, 2007, 1:58pm | #

TWC,

Ahhhh. I see.

So you are saying that SIV wasn't being partisan then?

iih | July 29, 2007, 2:04pm | #

The Wine Commonsewer®:

"You provoke just the kind of rage your looking to provoke and then complain about the consequences."

Provoke yes, but complain? No. I really do not want to complain about anything.

"Course, if you burn the flag in your back yard, nobody would notice."

Just like flag burners, who send a strong message at the cost of damaging their public perception (and eventually of ridicule and marginalization), being too liberal in offending those libertarians with religious sentiments (let alone those who may be attracted to libertarianism, but are not quite libertarian yet) may ultimately result in libertarians' ridicule and marginalization by the general public.

Ultimately, my concern is not really about religion and its place in libertarian thought (as J Sub D points out above, "Freedom of religion is a core principle of a libertarian philosophy" and there is no controversy about that), but given that an important presidential election is coming up, with a candidate who is looking strong so far, can libertarians afford to be marginalized and ridiculed as irrelevant?

However, do not misunderstand me. I am not Machiavellian in approach, I do believe that as rational as libertarians are (or should be), I think that being overtly anti-religious is harmful. That is all. Being sensitive to others' sensibilities (without giving up your right to free speech) aught to be a norm amongst libertarians, otherwise the aggression is not only harmful to the libertarian image, but also runs counter to the respect and protections of others' rights of owning their physical and abstract possessions.

Neu Mejican | July 29, 2007, 2:06pm | #

iih

For more on the free speech as analogous to property rights debate.

My simple position.

Free speech is more basic than property rights, therefore using the restrictions we place on property rights as your guide goes in the wrong direction.

Example: your basic right to be free of violent assault on your person. I can't punch you (without your consent) without violating your basic right. But does punching your front yard constitute a breach? Treating humans and property as equivalent leads to vacuous policies, imho.

Grand Chalups | July 29, 2007, 2:09pm | #

Don't look at what they say, look at how they vote.

The House of Representatives voted yesterday to reject the Hinchey-Rohrabacher amendment. As a result, state-authorized patients and their caregivers who posses or use medical cannabis will continue to be subject to federal arrest and prosecution.

The House voted 262 to 165 against the bi-partisan measure, sponsored by Reps. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) and Maurice Hinchey (D-NY). The 165 House votes in favor of the patient-protection provision was the highest total ever recorded in a Congressional floor vote to liberalize marijuana laws. Of those who voted in support of the Hinchey-Rohrabacher medical marijuana amendment, 15 were Republicans (a loss of three votes from 2006) and 150 were Democrats (a gain of six votes vote from last year).


http://capwiz.com/norml2/issues/alert/?alertid=10096411

TEN TIMES as many democrats as republicans voted the right way