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Are Some Ideas Too Dangerous to Discuss?

In a fascinating op/ed, Harvard cognitive scientist, Steven Pinker, lists a number of taboo ideas that have been soundly denounced by various people. To wit:

Do women, on average, have a different profile of aptitudes and emotions than men?

Were the events in the Bible fictitious -- not just the miracles, but those involving kings and empires?

Has the state of the environment improved in the last 50 years?

Do most victims of sexual abuse suffer no lifelong damage?

Did Native Americans engage in genocide and despoil the landscape?

Do men have an innate tendency to rape?

Did the crime rate go down in the 1990s because two decades earlier poor women aborted children who would have been prone to violence?

Are suicide terrorists well-educated, mentally healthy and morally driven?

Would the incidence of rape go down if prostitution were legalized?

Do African-American men have higher levels of testosterone, on average, than white men?

Is morality just a product of the evolution of our brains, with no inherent reality?

Would society be better off if heroin and cocaine were legalized?

Is homosexuality the symptom of an infectious disease?

Would it be consistent with our moral principles to give parents the option of euthanizing newborns with birth defects that would consign them to a life of pain and disability?

Do parents have any effect on the character or intelligence of their children?

Have religions killed a greater proportion of people than Nazism?

Would damage from terrorism be reduced if the police could torture suspects in special circumstances?

Would Africa have a better chance of rising out of poverty if it hosted more polluting industries or accepted Europe's nuclear waste?

Is the average intelligence of Western nations declining because duller people are having more children than smarter people?

Would unwanted children be better off if there were a market in adoption rights, with babies going to the highest bidder?

Would lives be saved if we instituted a free market in organs for transplantation?

Should people have the right to clone themselves, or enhance the genetic traits of their children?

Pinker suggests that many readers will be appalled by some of these questions. I personally find most of them interesting. He continues:

By "dangerous ideas" I don't have in mind harmful technologies, like those behind weapons of mass destruction, or evil ideologies, like those of racist, fascist or other fanatical cults. I have in mind statements of fact or policy that are defended with evidence and argument by serious scientists and thinkers but which are felt to challenge the collective decency of an age. The ideas listed above, and the moral panic that each one of them has incited during the past quarter century, are examples. Writers who have raised ideas like these have been vilified, censored, fired, threatened and in some cases physically assaulted.

While people of good will can disagree, I believe that there are no dangerous truths. It is always better to know than to remain ignorant. For the sake of argument, Pinker entertains the notion that some ideas may, indeed, be too dangerous to air publicly. Why? Perhaps because malevolent people may seize on the ideas to justify harming other people or groups. He also properly urges us to be "suspicious when the danger in a dangerous idea is to someone other than its advocate."

But in the end, Pinker concludes:

Though I am more sympathetic to the argument that important ideas be aired than to the argument that they should sometimes be suppressed, I think it is a debate we need to have. Whether we like it or not, science has a habit of turning up discomfiting thoughts, and the Internet has a habit of blowing their cover.

I am very proud to say that reason does not shy away from taboo topics such as, organ transplant markets, legalizing drugs, the improving natural environment, economic development in Africa, and genetic enhancement, to name a few. 

Whole Pinker op/ed here. reason's 2002 interview with Pinker here.

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Comments to "Are Some Ideas Too Dangerous to Discuss?":

x,y | July 20, 2007, 1:39pm | #

How about this one I had with some coworkers:

What interest does the state have in prosecuting Michael Vick? Are dogs property that people should be allowed to do as they please with (assuming no one else is harmed)?

Lamar | July 20, 2007, 1:40pm | #

He forgot, "Is sounding with cinammon toothpicks is a healthy pleasure?" I forgive him though.

de stijl | July 20, 2007, 1:43pm | #

Would damage from terrorism be reduced if the police could torture suspects in special circumstances?

This is a taboo question? 80% of self-identifying Republicans argue for it. Publicly. On blogs and shit.

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 1:45pm | #

Reading that list, it seems to me that almost all of those questions have been discussed in the public realm, although admittedly many of them would not be questions you'd ask in polite company.

Ironically, however, Pinker avoids truly taboo questions in favor of somewhat taboo ones.

And while Mr. Bailey is correct that Reason admirably is willing to confront sticky issues, try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism or that the government has a moral duty to help people who don't want to be helped.

Brian Sorgatz | July 20, 2007, 1:48pm | #

For a Playboy fan site heavily influenced by Pinker, click here.

Or is blogwhoring taboo here?

Warren | July 20, 2007, 1:49pm | #

ideas that have been soundly denounced by various people.

Well there's certainly nothing wrong with denoucing ideas. The problem comes when we prohibit discussing certain ideas. I'm all the way free speech on this one. I reject the assertion that there are ideas that are "too dangerouse". Though I will concede that most of my fellow humans are educated somewhat less than your average squirrel, and do quite a bit of damage with the ideas they have. As always the answer to bad speech is more speech.

ed | July 20, 2007, 1:49pm | #

Dan,

Isn't that cross getting a little heavy?

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 1:50pm | #

Edit: I missed this quote when I posted my first comment:

By "dangerous ideas" I don't have in mind harmful technologies, like those behind weapons of mass destruction, or evil ideologies, like those of racist, fascist or other fanatical cults.

In other words, Pinker is admitting that some ideas are too dangerous to consider. He's just wondering why we don't all agree with him as to what those are.

Michael Pack | July 20, 2007, 1:50pm | #

x y,as an avid hunter and dog trainer I would have to say yes dogs are property.Many a time I have sent my labs on birds that were wounded by a shot and killed them by field dressing while they were alive.I don't condone and am sickened by dog fighting yet still I believe animals have no rights.I have sent my dogs into bone chilling water and dangerous situations fo the sake of a goose for dinner.

Warren | July 20, 2007, 1:52pm | #

try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism or that the government has a moral duty to help people who don't want to be helped.

When non-trolls do this, we give them a reading list.

"Shut up you fucking troll" is not the same as prohibiting a line of discussion.

zap brannigan | July 20, 2007, 1:54pm | #

9/11 was an inside job.

Aresen | July 20, 2007, 1:55pm | #

Should freedom of speech be suspended because I don't like what you have to say?

Eryk Boston | July 20, 2007, 1:55pm | #

My "Upper Level Writing Requirement Paper" (I really wish my law school would just say dissertation) argued in favor of a free market or reduced regulation in organ transplantation and, rather than being vilified or censored, I received an above average grade from professors who work in health care. It seems it is not a forbidden topic.

I took far more grief for arguing that "drug addicts" can, in fact, control their use if they so choose.

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 1:55pm | #

try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism or that the government has a moral duty to help people who don't want to be helped.

When non-trolls do this, we give them a reading list.

"Shut up you fucking troll" is not the same as prohibiting a line of discussion.


I couldn't have scripted that one any better.

Frater Plotter | July 20, 2007, 1:55pm | #

How can an open, liberal culture maintain itself in the face of a growing populace of immigrants or converts who oppose openness and liberalism? (The "Pim Fortuyn" question.)

Is polyamory/polygamy a threat to peace? (The theory being, in a polygamous society, some men get "more than their share" of women, leaving other men frustrated and single -- and these men become more prone to violence.)

Improved medical treatment allows people with severe genetic disorders to survive and reproduce. So what?

It appears that there's a strong genetic predilection to addictive behavior: if you're not the sort of person who's capable of becoming a drug addict, then even if you took cocaine or heroin, you won't become an addict. So, why ban even "hard" drugs? Junkies are junkies by nature: if they didn't do heroin they would become drunks -- and a heroin junkie is less dangerous and more capable of working than a wino is.

Akira MacKenzie | July 20, 2007, 1:57pm | #

[i]Reading that list, it seems to me that almost all of those questions have been discussed in the public realm, although admittedly many of them would not be questions you'd ask in polite company.[/i]

Errrr... that would be the definition of taboo.

[I]Ironically, however, Pinker avoids truly taboo questions in favor of somewhat taboo ones.[/I]

You don't out much, do you? Suggest that Jesus didn't raise Lazarus from the dead or that prostitution ought to be legal, you're going to be branded a pariah; no ifs, ands, or buts.

[i]And while Mr. Bailey is correct that Reason
admirably is willing to confront sticky issues, try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism or that the government has a moral duty to help people who don't want to be helped.[/i]

Tu quoque much?

Pat Mathews | July 20, 2007, 1:59pm | #

The argument that the crime rate went down in the 1990s because abortions were more readily available has been discussed briefly on the Fourth Turning forums. They note that crime rates historically have peaked as the equivalent in period of the sex-drugs-rock'n'roll generation's last wave comes of age, and then starts declining. Long story as to the mechanisms involved, but it's happened before and will again regardless of laws unique to this period. Child rearing practices play a large part in this. Not to mention that the rates of common crime have dropped during our three huge Crisis wars: the American Revolution, the Civil War, and World War II. You tell me.

However, maybe it's a taboo subject and maybe not, but it was a chapter in "Freakonomics" which has had fairly successful sales. Taboo all the way to the bank?

x,y | July 20, 2007, 2:00pm | #

I asked my coworkers what the moral distinction between foie gras (how it's made) and dog fighting was. Neither had a good answer.

highnumber | July 20, 2007, 2:00pm | #

Answers, please!
Mr Bailey, I expect answers!

Brian Sorgatz (if that is your real name),
Blog-whoring is perfectly acceptable here. At URKOBOLD, your one stop shop for trolling, a sort of "Troll Central," on the other hand, we reward/punish it with "The Works." (The Works includes a taint bleaching and taint chomping, order to be determined.)

That's URKOBOLD, urkobold.blogspot.com.

Visit us today!

Bookmark it!

Jamie Kelly | July 20, 2007, 2:02pm | #

try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism...

Go ahead and try, Dan. Go right the fuck ahead. You'll be laughed at, spit on, and perhaps even referred to the megatons of historical evidence that soundly excoriates such a fucking stupid idea. And you might even get a few stories about how communism has killed hundreds of millions of people, not to mention impoverished the ones lucky enough to survive.
And then, after your ass is bleeding, you'll be asked to apologize to the victims of communism all over the world.

Abdul | July 20, 2007, 2:06pm | #

So, Pinker is saying that we need to debate what ideas we're allowed to debate? And we're debating whether we should debate on that idea?

My head hurts.

joshua corning | July 20, 2007, 2:06pm | #

Is homosexuality the symptom of an infectious disease?

Huh??

Hey ma i got the flu...so i am gay now.

This i weird...not taboo...but you know the others ones i have actually heard about.

Sal Paradise | July 20, 2007, 2:07pm | #

"try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism"

I know some guys had a peer-reviewed, 74-year study to try to figure that out. Anybody catch how it turned out?

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 2:07pm | #


Errrr... that would be the definition of taboo.


Right, and I acknowledged that his questions were somewhat taboo, but hardly unmentionable.


You don't out much, do you? Suggest that Jesus didn't raise Lazarus from the dead or that prostitution ought to be legal, you're going to be branded a pariah; no ifs, ands, or buts.


It depends on the audience I suppose. But holding unpopular opinions generally doesn't get you thrown into the leper colony - at least not these kinds of unpopular ones.

VM | July 20, 2007, 2:09pm | #

Niedermann's Quandary clearly states that the taboo question under discussion is rendered, by the discussion - indeed through logical extension of its constituent parts - to the taboo-ness of the subject, whereby the speech acts committed by the conversants taking part in the taboo discussion transcend the actual very nature of the grammatical programming of the situation.

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 2:11pm | #

Go ahead and try, Dan. Go right the fuck ahead. You'll be laughed at, spit on, and perhaps even referred to the megatons of historical evidence that soundly excoriates such a fucking stupid idea. And you might even get a few stories about how communism has killed hundreds of millions of people, not to mention impoverished the ones lucky enough to survive.
And then, after your ass is bleeding, you'll be asked to apologize to the victims of communism all over the world.


Ah, but you're guilty two fallacies: assuming that the game is over when it's just begun and assuming that poor implentation of an idea is the same as a bad idea.

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 2:11pm | #

Niedermann's Quandary clearly states that the taboo question under discussion is rendered, by the discussion - indeed through logical extension of its constituent parts - to the taboo-ness of the subject, whereby the speech acts committed by the conversants taking part in the taboo discussion transcend the actual very nature of the grammatical programming of the situation.

I've got to meet this Neidermann guy...

Johnny | July 20, 2007, 2:12pm | #

This just in...

Pinker has never read The National Review, nor watched FOX news.

joshua corning | July 20, 2007, 2:13pm | #

try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism or that the government has a moral duty to help people who don't want to be helped.

In Dan T's eyes any decent from these "truths" is the equivalent of censorship.

I really don't see how discussing these vary subjects in nearly every article equates to taboo subjects.

Jamie Kelly | July 20, 2007, 2:14pm | #

... assuming that the poor implementation of an idea is the same as a bad idea

Name one successful "implementation" of communist ideology.
I'll be over here with my Slinky.

plunge | July 20, 2007, 2:14pm | #

"I believe animals have no rights.I have sent my dogs into bone chilling water and dangerous situations for the sake of a goose for dinner."

What does that have to do with anything?

I don't see what's so unreasonable about according more intelligent and social animals some limited rights against wanton physical and psychological abuse. And I don't see why the fact that you'll willingly dole it out is relevant to the question. All that proves is what you are personally willing to do, not what should or shouldn't be legal.

Pro Libertate | July 20, 2007, 2:15pm | #

highnumber,

Can you tell me more about this Urkobold of which you speak?

joe | July 20, 2007, 2:15pm | #

Let's take a moment of silence for all of those who deliberately raise provocative questions, only to have people loudly disagree with them.

Trolls, you are not forgotten!

VM | July 20, 2007, 2:16pm | #

Niedermann was quite the fellow.

As you probably know, Schrøder's Dilemma was the original "ur spring" of his impressive body of work.

When he began exploring corollaries to the lemma, he discovered, as was clearly outlined in his treatise Romana Casa di Screed that led to the impressive Deine Mutti ist eine schmutzige Schlampe.

Here he expounds in a didactic, yet unopposing manner, the exact nominal frictions under which the taboo generates its awkward shunning power.

jimmydageek | July 20, 2007, 2:20pm | #

I wish there was a site of some sort where aspiring trolls, such as those who frequent Hit & Run, could visit in order to hone their trolling skills.

Anybody know of such a place?

Jamie Kelly | July 20, 2007, 2:21pm | #

How does it feel to be an asshole, Neidermann?
Oops, that's Neidermeyer.

Pro Libertate | July 20, 2007, 2:22pm | #

Shut the hell up, joe!

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 2:24pm | #

In Dan T's eyes any decent from these "truths" is the equivalent of censorship.

I really don't see how discussing these vary subjects in nearly every article equates to taboo subjects.


Who's saying anything about censorship? I'm just pointing out that what's taboo tends to depend on the audience - we all have certain viewpoints that are so strongly held that we refuse to even consider that the alternative view has any merit.

I should know - you learn a lot by trolling.

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 2:25pm | #

"Is homosexuality the symptom of an infectious disease?"

I've never heard of this before.

D.A. Ridgely | July 20, 2007, 2:26pm | #

Are you sure you don't mean URKELBOLD?

Haywood's Proxy | July 20, 2007, 2:28pm | #

I wish there was a site of some sort where aspiring trolls, such as those who frequent Hit & Run, could visit in order to hone their trolling skills.

Anybody know of such a place?


You could always learn straight from the master

Max | July 20, 2007, 2:29pm | #

In other words, Pinker is admitting that some ideas are too dangerous to consider. He's just wondering why we don't all agree with him as to what those are.

You are right. (Is that breaking a taboo?)

kevin | July 20, 2007, 2:30pm | #

Men do have a tendancy to rape, but our morality changes this urge for sexual reporduction into a forced act upon a female. Animal species 'rape' each other all in the name of procreation. I believe we are just following the same path.

Urkobold™ | July 20, 2007, 2:31pm | #

D.A. Ridgely,

NO. HE MEANS--

U★R★K★O★B★O★L★D

Dave W. | July 20, 2007, 2:33pm | #

Does corn syrup cause diabetes more than cane sugar?

Does the sun rotate around the Earth just as much as the Earth rotates around the sun?

Are oligopolies substantially as bad as monopolies?

Is HIV a passenger virus?

Was flight 93 shot down or WTC7 intentional demolished?

Brian Courts | July 20, 2007, 2:35pm | #

And while Mr. Bailey is correct that Reason admirably is willing to confront sticky issues, try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism

Is this really an attempt to make some kind of point?? You're kidding right? As long as you're grasping, why not try this one,

"And while Mr. Bailey is correct that Reason admirably is willing to confront sticky issues, try suggesting around here that slavery was better than emancipation"

Or how about,

"And while Mr. Bailey is correct that Reason admirably is willing to confront sticky issues, try suggesting around here that Hitler wasn't really all that bad."

I suspect given the moral philosophy of most of those around here, and the empirical evidence, if you made any of those claims you'd rightly be denounced as an idiot or a troll (or likely both).

The difference that your pathetic attempt to score a cheap point misses is that the kind of idea Pinker is talking about has at least some supporting evidence from a non-crackpot advocate. However, the claim (not that is is necessarily true, of course) is such that discussing it tends to be shunned by many people for reasons not related to the actual research or facts. In your ridiculous example, not only is there no serious support for the idea, the opposition you are likely to find from almost everyone here is most certainly directly related to the facts and evidence offered in support of such a claim, and is not simply an emotional refusal to consider the possibility.

So, if you have some serious evidence to support your claim, by all means, let's hear it. If not, then throwing that out there does nothing but further cement your status as a troll, more interested in feeding an infantile need of attention by getting a rise out of people than in seriously thinking about an issue. For anyone who actually took more than a second to think about your example would have seen that it bore no relation at all to Pinker's examples.

kebko | July 20, 2007, 2:39pm | #

no

joe | July 20, 2007, 2:40pm | #

Shut the hell up, joe!,/i>

Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system. Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help! I'm being repressed!

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 2:44pm | #

But Brian, if the idea that communism might be better than capitalism is such an incredibly indefensible position, why would it raise such an emotional response in people? If I suggested that 1+1=3, would anybody bother to respond?

And as shocking as you might find it, there are plenty of scholars, philosophers, and just plain regular folks across the globe that would agree with the proposition about communism and capitalism (at least to some degree).

The main point, though, is that Mr. Bailey and others here should not be so self-congratulatory about their lack of personal taboos. Because this thread has proven that they certainly are there.

VM | July 20, 2007, 2:45pm | #

...backs slowly away from kevin... obviously takes The Fountainhead a little too seriously...

DanT: taboo as a social construct - that which is taboo some places isn't in other places. What about more general ones, e.g., incest, etc.

Now, hier you find all things that for the love of zog and all things unholy.

Urkobold™ | July 20, 2007, 2:46pm | #

1+1 CAN EQUAL 3, IF YOU DO IT RIGHT, Dan T.

Lurker Kurt | July 20, 2007, 2:46pm | #

try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism

I can think of some evidence from an a 40+ year long experiment held in central Europe: Trabant vs BMW.

Ah, but you're guilty two fallacies: assuming that the game is over when it's just begun and assuming that poor implentation of an idea is the same as a bad idea.

I work with a self proclaimed socialist and he also says communism was poorly implemented and that true socialism has never been tried.

My taboo question for socialists everywhere is "Why has communism been 'poorly implemented' over and over again during these past 80 years?

thoreau | July 20, 2007, 2:47pm | #

1+1 = 10

There's no room for debate there. It's a true/false, binary issue.

Michael Pack | July 20, 2007, 2:48pm | #

plunge,You talking about rights,not the responciblity.I believe we should treat animals fairly yet they are property.Look at the Chicogo cattle and pork futures,that's private enterprise.Is a pig smarter than a horse or dog,some say yes.Yet we can legally eat a pig and not a horse or dog.why?If you get tried of or can't take care of a dog or cat you can take it to the vet and have it put down.I would think the first right would be to life.I know many trainers that use shock collars to train dogs.I think there cruel and give poor results.I trained my last lab in my pool while drinking beer in the evenings.My dog slept on a pillow near a wood stove,theirs in a pen outside.Why,because their property.

joe | July 20, 2007, 2:48pm | #

There are 10 kinds of people in the world...

Urkobold™ | July 20, 2007, 2:49pm | #

OH, AND PLEASE VISIT MY BLOG,
OR I WILL SEND A MOOSE TO CHOMP YOUR TAINT (AGAIN).

thoreau | July 20, 2007, 2:49pm | #

I had a student miss one question on a 10 point quiz. I marked "F" on the page.

It's hex, bitch!

Marge Simpson | July 20, 2007, 2:50pm | #

You've been marginalized!

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 2:51pm | #

Radiohead fans know that 2+2 always equals 5.

Ron | July 20, 2007, 2:52pm | #

Link to Wikipedia article on infection theory of homosexuality. Spoiler: just a theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenic_hypothesis_of_homosexuality

Pro Libertate | July 20, 2007, 2:52pm | #

I am your king!

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 2:53pm | #

I work with a self proclaimed socialist and he also says communism was poorly implemented and that true socialism has never been tried.

My taboo question for socialists everywhere is "Why has communism been 'poorly implemented' over and over again during these past 80 years?


It's worth noting that a pure captialist society has never succeeded, either. Almost all modern economic/polical systems are a mixture of capitalism and socialism.

Minion of "what a" Herrn Dienstag | July 20, 2007, 2:53pm | #

/././././././././././././././././././.

SIV | July 20, 2007, 2:55pm | #

Did Native Americans engage in genocide and despoil the landscape?

Despoiling the landscape is a matter of aesthetics.


Hit & Run commenters weren't too happy when I suggested "Europaen-Americans" did not commit genocide against the indigenous people.

Pro Libertate | July 20, 2007, 2:55pm | #

I'm sorry, thoreau, but base 13 has clearly been established here at Hit & Run. Please refigure your posts, accordingly.

thoreau | July 20, 2007, 2:55pm | #

Actually, if you do your arithmetic with the field F2 (google it), 1+1=0.

brian | July 20, 2007, 2:58pm | #

Brian Courts

And while Mr. Bailey is correct that Reason admirably is willing to confront sticky issues, try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism

Is this really an attempt to make some kind of point?? You're kidding right? As long as you're grasping, why not try this one,

"And while Mr. Bailey is correct that Reason admirably is willing to confront sticky issues, try suggesting around here that slavery was better than emancipation"

Or how about,

"And while Mr. Bailey is correct that Reason admirably is willing to confront sticky issues, try suggesting around here that Hitler wasn't really all that bad."


I don't think he was suggesting that communism was better than capitalism, but instead he was just illustrating that certain topics are considered so taboo (the theme of the post) that many will not even discuss it.

For example, consider the idea that it is the Earth rotates around the Sun, instead of the other way around. That idea was taboo a long time ago because it flew in the face of the church, but that doesn't mean it should be suppressed by society.

Of course, this has nothing to do with government regulation of speech, but society can suppress speech as well (albeit not as effectively without the use of force). Consider a person giving a speech whose event is disrupted by a noisy mob simply because they are putting forth taboo ideas.

thoreau | July 20, 2007, 2:58pm | #

It's worth noting that a pure captialist society has never succeeded, either.

It's never been allowed to succeed because too many people don't like the results that it gives. But just because it's unstable and disliked at it approaches its purest form, that doesn't mean it won't work!

OK, seriously, your point is taken. There is a spectrum of economic systems out there, I'll grant that, and the most successful ones have been of a mixed character. Still, the most successful ones have tended to be a hell of a lot closer to one side of the spectrum than the other.

thoreau | July 20, 2007, 3:00pm | #

Getting the 69th comment in a thread is over-rated.

Is that idea too dangerous to discuss?

SIV | July 20, 2007, 3:01pm | #

Plunge,

I don't see what's so unreasonable about according more intelligent and social animals some limited rights against wanton physical and psychological abuse

Are chickens in the "more intelligent and social" category ? If not, do you support legal cockfighting?

( not that I consider traditional animal sports to be "abuse" )

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 3:03pm | #

"Would damage from terrorism be reduced if the police could torture suspects in special circumstances?"

"This is a taboo question? 80% of self-identifying Republicans argue for it. Publicly. On blogs and shit."

Even the Clintons support that position.

Eric Atkinson | July 20, 2007, 3:05pm | #

I had a student miss one question on a 10 point quiz. I marked "F" on the page.

It's hex, bitch!
So, his base 10 score was 15?
Doesn't seem fair.

Seamus | July 20, 2007, 3:05pm | #

My "Upper Level Writing Requirement Paper" (I really wish my law school would just say dissertation)

Anyone who's written a real dissertation (or even a master's thesis) in any academic field more rigorous than gender studies would find it laughable to hear that lawyers think their Upper Level Writing Requirement is equivalent.

Actually, strike the qualification I put in that last sentence. While gender studies may have little or no real substance, getting the jargon right would make writing a thesis or dissertation way more work than I'd be willing to put in.

Lurker Kurt | July 20, 2007, 3:05pm | #

It's worth noting that a pure captialist society has never succeeded, either. Almost all modern economic/polical systems are a mixture of capitalism and socialism.

Dan, your original taboo question was '...that communism is better than capitalism', although that wasn't exactly in the form of a question. I assumed that by communism vs capitalism you were comparing the economies of the U.S. and Western Europe vs the Soviet Union, North Korea, and Cuba.

So if neither pure communsim nor pure capitalism have never been tried, isn't your question moot?

Finally, care to answer my question as to why so many implementations of (not so pure) communism have been done so 'poorly'?

Eric Atkinson | July 20, 2007, 3:07pm | #

I would have expected a grade of 5A.

P Brooks | July 20, 2007, 3:07pm | #

Binary humour shall henceforth be taboo!

kwais | July 20, 2007, 3:07pm | #

ooh, I am going to post those questions on my next myspace survey.

brian | July 20, 2007, 3:09pm | #

Lurker Kurt
Finally, care to answer my question as to why so many implementations of (not so pure) communism have been done so 'poorly'?


I'm not well versed in Marx, but I would guess because they all had a state. Marxist ideology is that the goal would be a stateless society, much like the "primitive communism" of early man (before governments were created). In the transition to the stateless society, there must be some type of "transition government." I may be wrong about this, but I think the problem in the eyes of communists is that they never got to the final stage but instead got stuck in a perpetual "transition government."

Dan T. | July 20, 2007, 3:10pm | #

Kurt: as brian stated above, I really was not saying that communism was better, just pointing out that it's a question that is hardly settled. Yet within certain circles (like this one) it will simply not get fair consideration.

In fact, people will get quite offended that you even bring it up!

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 3:12pm | #

"It's worth noting that a pure captialist society has never succeeded, either."

A pure capitalist system has never been tried.

Lurker Kurt | July 20, 2007, 3:13pm | #

but I think the problem in the eyes of communists is that they never got to the final stage but instead got stuck in a perpetual "transition government."

So I guess my follow up question is why do the keep getting 'stuck'?

Different countries, same police state and same stagnant economies.

Reinmoose | July 20, 2007, 3:13pm | #

I think many of you have no idea what the difference between "taboo" and "widely disagreed with/considered laughable" is.

Minion of URKOBOLD | July 20, 2007, 3:15pm | #

REINMOOSE IS HEREBY CONSIDERED LAUGHABLE

brian | July 20, 2007, 3:17pm | #

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 3:12pm | #

"It's worth noting that a pure captialist society has never succeeded, either."

A pure capitalist system has never been tried.


I think that's what he's saying: Neither a pure capitalist nor a pure communist system has ever been tried.

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 3:17pm | #

"I'm not well versed in Marx, but I would guess because they all had a state. Marxist ideology is that the goal would be a stateless society, much like the "primitive communism" of early man (before governments were created). In the transition to the stateless society, there must be some type of "transition government." I may be wrong about this, but I think the problem in the eyes of communists is that they never got to the final stage but instead got stuck in a perpetual "transition government."

I'm not so sure that it was ever Lenin's attention to ever bring about pure communism in the Soviet Union. I think communism was a good tool for him to gain and keep control over the country.

highnumber | July 20, 2007, 3:18pm | #

We discuss many TabooTopics that Reason is afraid to. Learn the RealTruth about JoeStrummer, NewWaveSaturday, MonkeyTuesday, ThePlanetoftheApes, HaggisFritters and many other topics the hacks at Reason won't touch by clicking the link in my name.

brian | July 20, 2007, 3:19pm | #

Lurker Kurt

So I guess my follow up question is why do the keep getting 'stuck'?

Different countries, same police state and same stagnant economies.


Oh, if you're asking me, I don't know. I haven't studied communist theory enough to compare the ideal with the actual since I don't really know exactly what the ideal consists of, other than what I said.

Maybe wiki? Try here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

crap-action-jackson | July 20, 2007, 3:21pm | #

This op-ed looks like a recycled version of Pinker's intro to "What is Your Dangerous Idea?", a print version of the Edge's annual question.

Amazon link: http://tinyurl.com/ysrrep

brian | July 20, 2007, 3:21pm | #

Rattlesnake Jake

I'm not so sure that it was ever Lenin's attention to ever bring about pure communism in the Soviet Union. I think communism was a good tool for him to gain and keep control over the country.


I'm sure you're right. But I think there were probably some true-blue (red?) communists who really believed he would.

uncle sam | July 20, 2007, 3:22pm | #

I always thought 1+1=11.

Dan T,
You may indeed discuss the thought that communism is better than capitalism.

1. What do you mean by 'better'?

2. What are the incentives in each system to make it work?

3. What is it about communism that might make it better than capitalism?

4. What would a properly implemented communist system look like?

5. How would this system actually be implemented?

6. What aspect of human nature is its working dependent upon?

brian | July 20, 2007, 3:24pm | #

Ooooh something fun to make H&R readers' heads asplode:

Libertarian Communism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_communism

At a quick glance, it looks like anarcho-capitalism without the capitalism part.

Lurker Kurt | July 20, 2007, 3:26pm | #

just pointing out that it's a question that is hardly settled

In fact, people will get quite offended that you even bring it up!

I'm not offended, just incredulous. As Thoreau said, the needle points a lot closer to one side of the scale than to the other.

Ok, here is my cliff notes version of why capitalist(style) economies are better than socialist(style) economies:

1) The Apollo Program
2) Hot and Cold running water: as much as you want.
3) Doggie Insulin

The Apollo Program - An example of the technical superiority (and its spin-off consumer technologies) produced by a capitalist economy

2) Hot and Cold running water: as much as you want - The infrastructure that results from the wealth produced by the capitalist system.

3) Doggie Insulin - This may seem like a strange, but bear with me. Diseases like heart disease and diabetes are diseases of affluence. Basically you eat too much and excercise too little. Too much rich, fatty, sweet foods and too many lifestyles where had, physical excercise isn't necessary. Well, life is so easy in America and food is in such abundance, even our pets suffer from diseases of affluence.

uncle sam | July 20, 2007, 3:27pm | #

BTW, I am a practicing communist, I live in a commune called a family. Membership is highly restricted.

I do not wish to be a member of an involuntary national commune. That's why it won't work.

twv | July 20, 2007, 3:30pm | #


try suggesting around here that communism is better than capitalism or that the government has a moral duty to help people who don't want to be helped.
The idea of straightforward co-operation with unequal contributions but equal share-out, regulated only by self-restraint supported by social censure, is an interesting idea. That's communism. I often debate it. I would think many Reason people would be interested in discussing it.

The idea that this sort of communism should be established by violent revolution, land-holders and capital-owners expropriated and shot or starved, and then the whole thing controlled by a central authority . . . hmmm, I wonder why anyone would take umbrage at THAT.

I know a lot of libertarians who want to help people who don't want to be helped, and even force help on those people. We call those people "shooting enemies," and we want to help them out of their gun nests.

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 3:32pm | #

"Libertarian Communism:"

Is that another name for left wing anarchism which is what I think pure communism would be.

Michael Pack | July 20, 2007, 3:36pm | #

I believe the main difference is the state ownership of capital and industry.The US Post Office is an example.We know how that works.Here in the states we have subsidies for buisnesses[farms,sports teams,ect].Some may call that socialism,I call it theft.

Reinmoose | July 20, 2007, 3:41pm | #

How did you all take a potentially really interesting thread and turn it into a run-of-the-mill discussion about communism/capitalism? There will be plenty of threads where you can discuss that, why this one with so much potential?

Maybe because that topic isn't really "taboo" by any definition, and therefore you feel comfortable discussing it? If we really found a taboo subject (to ourselves), would we discuss it like this?

librarian | July 20, 2007, 3:41pm | #

What sick bastard would deliberately field dress another sentient creature while it was still alive?

Think about doing that to your lab, or your child for that matter, because it produces the same amount of pain. I'm not a frothing PETA zealot, but good grief.

Sorry, folks, I know that was off topic, but seriously, I'm gonna have nightmares.

Edward | July 20, 2007, 3:42pm | #

"I am very proud to say that reason does not shy away from taboo topics such as, organ transplant markets, legalizing drugs, the improving natural environment, economic development in Africa, and genetic enhancement, to name a few."

Not shying away from "dangerous" ideas that don't challenge the premises of one's own ideology is a facile source of pride.

MattXIV | July 20, 2007, 3:43pm | #

Well Dan, as far as advocating actual communism goes, I regard it like advocating creationism. In both cases, while neither can conclusively be "proved" wrong to the standards of their dedicated proponents, if you've been paying any attention to developments over the last 150 years you'd have noticed the strong empirical and theoretical cases against them. Theres a limit to how seriously one can take people who insist that dinosaur bones across various strata were the product of a single mass extinction caused by a global flood; ditto those who believe that complete government control of the means of production is a practical form of economic organization.

There is a difference between a topic being taboo and the opinion on a topic favoring one side in a group. We can observe this difference in how various forms of trolling a treated at H&R. Racism, for example, is taboo here, so on the occasions where obviously racist trolls show up, there is rarely any effort to engage their ideas, even to refute them, since they're considered not only self-evidently wrong, but morally suspect. Contrast this to the reaction you get, where multiple commenters will frequently engage your arguments even if they don't find them persuasive, even while you constantly accuse people who disagree with you of being closed minded for failing to explain in detail the reasons they're not socialists 8 times a day.

brian | July 20, 2007, 3:43pm | #

Reinmoose

If we really found a taboo subject (to ourselves), would we discuss it like this?


If we're discussing it, it must not be taboo. Therefore, we can never discuss a taboo topic. Isn't the circular logic? Maybe it is, simply due to some definition of the word "taboo."

uncle sam | July 20, 2007, 3:45pm | #

How about letting kids vote?

Transgenerational consensual sex?

Acknowledging the existence of the Ron Paul campaign in major medai?

ed | July 20, 2007, 3:45pm | #

Learn the RealTruth and many other topics the hacks at Reason won't touch
by clicking the link in my name.


No.

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 3:46pm | #

My understanding is that communism is where all property is held in common by the public. Socialism is where the government owns all property. Under the latter interpretation, you could say that the Soviet Union was really a socialist state. After all it was called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic. Economic fascism is where private ownership is allowed, but controlled by the government. That system comes closest to Musilini's Italy and Nazi Germany even though Hitler called it National Socialism. Our system and the systems of Western Europe are a mixture of the free market, fascism, and socialism with Western Europe leaning more in the direction of socialism than us.

brian | July 20, 2007, 3:48pm | #

Matt:

Racism, for example, is taboo here, so on the occasions where obviously racist trolls show up, there is rarely any effort to engage their ideas, even to refute them, since they're considered not only self-evidently wrong, but morally suspect


Good post, but just because the poster is racist does not mean that his ideas are incorrect; many great thinkers of the past were racist. Shouldn't we still entertain the ideas and determine whether or not they are correct, rather than dismissing them outright because they are "taboo?"

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 3:48pm | #

"How did you all take a potentially really interesting thread and turn it into a run-of-the-mill discussion about communism/capitalism?"

It's all Dan T's fault. He brought the subject up.

Brian Courts | July 20, 2007, 3:51pm | #

thoreau: I had a student miss one question on a 10 point quiz. I marked "F" on the page.

Eric Atkinson: So, his base 10 score was 15? Doesn't seem fair.

Seems fair to me - 10 point quiz, missed a one point question: 10 - 1 = F.

Reinmoose | July 20, 2007, 3:51pm | #

brian -
thanks, that was the point I was trying to make, sorta. For example, the mere fact that they are discussing it means that it disproves Dan T's assertion that it's taboo here. And if that topic isn't taboo here, I'm not sure there are many places it would be taboo.

Reason typically blogs about a lot of topics that are taboo so a larger portion of society, which I think is how you have to look at it. No subject that I can think of is taboo to the entire human race, because nobody would have thought of it.

Communism is not one of these widely taboo subjects.

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 3:51pm | #

"What sick bastard would deliberately field dress another sentient creature while it was still alive?"

The Japanese eat a fish that's still living. They fry it slightly while alive, all the while keeping it alive and then eat it while it's still breathing.

Vanessa | July 20, 2007, 3:55pm | #

I'm not well versed in Marx, but I would guess because they all had a state. Marxist ideology is that the goal would be a stateless society, much like the "primitive communism" of early man (before governments were created). In the transition to the stateless society, there must be some type of "transition government." I may be wrong about this, but I think the problem in the eyes of communists is that they never got to the final stage but instead got stuck in a perpetual "transition government."

Right. But keep in mind that Marx predicted the state would just whither away. He believed this prediction was inevitable, and based on science. I think it's more akin to the prediction that one day the righteous among us will fall down dead in one swoop and have their souls carried off to heaven.

Communism/socialism won't work because it can't be implemented in its "true form" as Marx envisioned it. States are enormous bureaucracies and bureaucracies (especially those with a legal monopoly on the means of violence) do not allow themselves to whither away.

Michael Pack | July 20, 2007, 3:55pm | #

You field dress birds that that way because its the quickest way to kill them and save the meat.You can't shoot again up close and wringing the neck doesn't work.Fresh fish and frogs are alive when you clean them.Being a carnivore is not for the weak of heart.Unless you get your meat wrapped at the store.

matthew hogan | July 20, 2007, 3:57pm | #

"I believe that there are no dangerous truths. It is always better to know than to remain ignorant. "

Doesn't that question the Fourth Amendment or the related right to exclude evidence wrongly obtained?

brian | July 20, 2007, 3:57pm | #

Reinmoose
brian -
thanks, that was the point I was trying to make, sorta. For example, the mere fact that they are discussing it means that it disproves Dan T's assertion that it's taboo here


But wouldn't that argument imply that the only way to prove that something is taboo is by showing that people don't talk about it? If so, then one could argue that the 9/11 conspiracy is a taboo topic because no one talked about zap brannigan's post above
which said "9/11 was an inside job."

Or, as an even better example, no one responded to uncle sam's post asking about:

How about letting kids vote?
Transgenerational consensual sex?
Acknowledging the existence of the Ron Paul campaign in major medai?


Therefore, those issues are taboo.

Of course, the mere lack of discussion does not mean a topic is taboo, since we also didn't discuss the price of tea in China in this thread, but that isn't really taboo.
So does that mean it is impossible to prove that something is taboo?

/feel free to ignore my rambling...

Russ R | July 20, 2007, 3:57pm | #

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who use binary, and those who don't.

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 3:58pm | #

"but just because the poster is racist does not mean that his ideas are incorrect; many great thinkers of the past were racist. Shouldn't we still entertain the ideas and determine whether or not they are correct, rather than dismissing them outright because they are "taboo?"

When is racism ever correct?

brian | July 20, 2007, 3:59pm | #

matthew hogan | July 20, 2007, 3:57pm | #

"I believe that there are no dangerous truths. It is always better to know than to remain ignorant. "

Doesn't that question the Fourth Amendment or the related right to exclude evidence wrongly obtained?


I thought that right was used as an incentive for police to not illegally obtain evidence, as it wouldn't be able to be used at trial. The whole protecting civil liberties thing by using incentives.

brian | July 20, 2007, 4:03pm | #

Rattlesnake Jake

When is racism ever correct?


Well, who gets to define what's racist. Lets say for the sake of argument that men and women have different neurological charcteristics that make them respectively better at different things. Now lets say that a scientist discovers this and argues this fact. Many would dismiss him as sexist, and therefore his argument must be incorrect. So people dismiss his argument because they label him sexist, even though he is factually correct.

Let's say there's a similar result with race (I don't know anything about research in this area). Just because people label those presenting the argument as "racist" doesn't mean they are wrong. It also doesn't mean they are actually racist. We still owe it to ourselves to look at the facts and the argument.

Craig | July 20, 2007, 4:03pm | #

Here's another question:

Does government at all levels take more individual wealth and kill more people than all of the potential criminals in the world would in the absence of any government?

Or how about this one:

Would we be better off with competing national governments in the same geographic area, such that your vote actually determined the laws and tax rates you lived under, with crimes against a person or property prosecuted under the laws of the victim's government, with for instance, the Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, and Greens setting up separate national governments?

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 4:04pm | #

"You field dress birds that that way because its the quickest way to kill them and save the meat.You can't shoot again up close and wringing the neck doesn't work.Fresh fish and frogs are alive when you clean them.Being a carnivore is not for the weak of heart.Unless you get your meat wrapped at the store."

Muslims bleed their animals to death. This leaves less blood in the meat and makes it more tender. They call it halal.

Nephilium | July 20, 2007, 4:05pm | #

Bah! I demand more base x jokes!

Why do programmers celebrate Christmas on Halloween?

Because Dec 25 = Oct 31.

An just to throw it out there, another taboo question. If Homosexuality is based on genetics, wouldn't it have disappeared since the carriers would not be reproducing?

Nephilium

Ellie | July 20, 2007, 4:06pm | #

Dan, Isn't that cross getting a little heavy?

Every time I read your posts I don't understand
Why so many of these threads get so out of hand
We'd have learned much better if you'd only had it planned
Why'd you choose folks who worship supply and demand?

If only you could reach the whole Reason Foundation
But arguing online is difficult communication

Dan T./Christ! Dan T./Christ!
What topics have the libertoids made you sacrifice?
Dan T./Christ! Blogging star!
Do we think you're as smart as you say you are?

Urkobold™ | July 20, 2007, 4:07pm | #

BINARY IS FOR PUSSIES. THE URKOBOLD USES BASE 2.5.

Reinmoose | July 20, 2007, 4:08pm | #

brian -
lol. I was thinking of my rebuttal for your comment as I was reading it and then you said it yourself.

I meant that people were discussing communism/capitalism civally, not by shouting "omg, I can't believe you just said that" or "you'd better shut up before I..." and the like.

Pro Libertate | July 20, 2007, 4:09pm | #

Ellie,

You only want to know.

brian | July 20, 2007, 4:09pm | #

Would we be better off with competing national governments in the same geographic area, such that your vote actually determined the laws and tax rates you lived under, with crimes against a person or property prosecuted under the laws of the victim's government, with for instance, the Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, and Greens setting up separate national governments?

Interesting. Let's consider that.
Under this system...

People vote for what taxes they would have to pay and what services they could receive (there are public good problems with this, where services such as police protection cannot be withheld from those who are not part of that government).

People are not voting for what laws they wish to follow; instead they vote for what laws others must follow with respect to them (for example, if I join the government with strict penalties for robbery, and someone robs me, they incurr stiff fines. But if I rob someone else who is part of a government with lax fines, I pay little for the crime, despite being part of the strict government myself).

I'll keep thinking...

Reinmoose | July 20, 2007, 4:15pm | #

With the implementation of socialized medicine, should we encourage those with short-term terminal diseases and those in comas to not seek treatment such that those who, with prompt treatment, have a better chance of surviving and living a normal life can receive that treatment?

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 4:17pm | #

"Let's say there's a similar result with race (I don't know anything about research in this area). Just because people label those presenting the argument as "racist" doesn't mean they are wrong. It also doesn't mean they are actually racist. We still owe it to ourselves to look at the facts and the argument."

I think I get your point. If somebody says that all black men have large penises, we could call him a racist because we assume he's generalizing on the basis of a stereotype. But if he says he has scientific data to back him up, it behooves us to check out his source.

D. Greene | July 20, 2007, 4:18pm | #

There is a reason these things can't be talked about. People are too stupid. For example, my discussion on this blog with an area citizen is instructive.

Edward | July 20, 2007, 4:18pm | #

Someone has suggested that government intervention to ease the transition to a global economy may be necessary to stave of a populist backlash that would impose protectionism and kill the hen that lays the golden egg. Does the government need to intervene to save global capitalism? I'll bet this is a taboo topic here that will spark a mindless anti-troll reaction complete with sarcastic comments. Go ahead, I can take it.

Reinmoose | July 20, 2007, 4:22pm | #

Edward:
are you referring to the difference between what happened in Russia with what's happening in China? (more or less)
I think that's the most constructive comment you've ever made.

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 4:23pm | #

"An just to throw it out there, another taboo question. If Homosexuality is based on genetics, wouldn't it have disappeared since the carriers would not be reproducing?"

Not necessarily. Imagine a parent has a recessive gene for homosexuality. This parent has two children. Say one of the offspring becomes homosexual, but the other doesn't but still carries the recessive gene in which he or she can pass off to offspring.

brian | July 20, 2007, 4:24pm | #

Edward

Someone has suggested that government intervention to ease the transition to a global economy may be necessary to stave of a populist backlash that would impose protectionism and kill the hen that lays the golden egg. Does the government need to intervene to save global capitalism? I'll bet this is a taboo topic here that will spark a mindless anti-troll reaction complete with sarcastic comments. Go ahead, I can take it.


Many have made a similar argument with respect to progressive taxation and wealth redistribution. That is, there are winners and losers of a liberalized economy, and if the losers push anti-market agendas, does that suggest that redistributing wealth to the losers can prevent the destructive path to socialism?

Edward | July 20, 2007, 4:27pm | #

Wait a minute. For Pinker, isn't intelligent desing a dangerous idea in the biology classroom? I certainly think is fosters scientific ignorance.

Jamie Kelly | July 20, 2007, 4:27pm | #

D. Greene:
I bet that man voted for George W.
What a freakin' idiot he was. I liked your reasoned, rational responses as well.

highnumber | July 20, 2007, 4:28pm | #

D. Greene,
"gene" is not stupid. He was the head of the class in the Urkobold School of Trolling!

Find more Urkobold merchandise when you visit Urkobold's blog!

Edward | July 20, 2007, 4:28pm | #

Sorry, "design."

x,y | July 20, 2007, 4:32pm | #

When is racism ever correct?

Should a restaurant owner be permitted to exclude blacks from his restaurant?

edna | July 20, 2007, 4:32pm | #

The Japanese eat a fish that's still living. They fry it slightly while alive, all the while keeping it alive and then eat it while it's still breathing.

the joos do the same thing with goyish babies.

is that taboo to mention?

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 4:34pm | #

"if the losers push anti-market agendas, does that suggest that redistributing wealth to the losers can prevent the destructive path to socialism?"

This is pretty much what Bismark did in Germany. Kind of like starting a controlled grass fire to keep an out of control fire from taking over.

Vanessa | July 20, 2007, 4:36pm | #

"If Homosexuality is based on genetics, wouldn't it have disappeared since the carriers would not be reproducing?"

I don't think that subject is taboo. It's an empirical question that evolutionary biologists are grappling with. In general, I think it is mostly important to people who have a strong interest in evolution such as evolutionary biologists/psychologists/anthropologists/sociologists.

In my experience, gay people don't try to prevent it from being discussed. From what I have observed, they tend to a) dismiss it as irrelevant because they don't really understand evolutionary biology, or b) view it as an empirical question that will one day be resolved. Then they put the question aside and go on about their lives.

Sometimes they argue based on the concept of inclusive fitness that gay people benefit their families as a whole because they are less likely to have kids and thus more likely to use their personal resources to ensure the survival of their relatives' offspring.

Yes, it's a bad argument but most gay people experience homosexuality as inborn to the degree that they just can't believe it's not genetic no matter what science has to say about it. They don't fear the answer to the question so it's not taboo.

highnumber | July 20, 2007, 4:36pm | #

I thought Cabin Boy was hilarious.

Is that taboo to mention?

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 4:38pm | #

"Should a restaurant owner be permitted to exclude blacks from his restaurant?"

Yes, because it's his property and he should be able to do with his property as he chooses even though the rest of us may be disgusted with his position.

de stijl | July 20, 2007, 4:38pm | #

Anybody wanna buy a monkey?

librarian | July 20, 2007, 4:38pm | #

Okay, well I guess you've outed the vegetarian in the crowd.

Thanks for the sociology lessons, everyone.

Frankly, I think eating meat is just poor table manners, but to each his own.

Brian Courts | July 20, 2007, 4:39pm | #

BINARY IS FOR PUSSIES. THE URKOBOLD USES BASE 2.5.

Heh. THE URKOBOLD’s delusions of superiority from such child’s play amuses The Brian. All real, rational bases are for pussies. The Brian uses base i&pi.

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 4:40pm | #

"the joos do the same thing with goyish babies."

My wife grew up in Iran. Her mother taught her to stay away from Jews because they suck your blood.

Brian Courts | July 20, 2007, 4:41pm | #

Oops... and it looks like The Brian needs to work on his html... that should be base i&pi

de stijl | July 20, 2007, 4:41pm | #

Sometimes they argue based on the concept of inclusive fitness that gay people benefit their families as a whole because they are less likely to have kids and thus more likely to use their personal resources to ensure the survival of their relatives' offspring.

Until very recently I would think that many if not most homosexuals would have opposite sex spouses and kids. It was practically a societal requirement.

brian | July 20, 2007, 4:44pm | #

Yes, it's a bad argument but most gay people experience homosexuality as inborn to the degree that they just can't believe it's not genetic no matter what science has to say about it. They don't fear the answer to the question so it's not taboo.

There's also a theory that homosexuality itself is not genetic, but that it is caused by a series of factors that trace back to genetics.

It's nicknamed the "exotic becomes erotic" theory, and it goes like this:

Children tend to engender a sexual attraction to what is considered "exotic." Males tend to associate with males, so females are exotic, and develop an attraction to that. Females tend to associate with females, so males are exotic and become the object of their attraction.

However, some males associate with females as a child, making males exotic, leading them to be attracted to other males. And if effeminate males are more likely to associate with females, then they are more likely to be attracted to males.

So if effeminancy is caused by a gene, it can lead to association with females, which leads to attraction to other males.

In this theory, no gene specfically causes homosexuality, but it leads to other factors which cause it.

TrickyVic | July 20, 2007, 4:46pm | #

Like the shirt says,

There are 10 types of people understand binary.

Those who do, and those who don't.

Michael Pack | July 20, 2007, 4:47pm | #

As a barber I've always enjoyed when others in my buisness discriminated.Some won't cut women,some kids,some ethnic hair.I take all shapes and sizes.More for me.

curious | July 20, 2007, 4:51pm | #

Do the theories of David Icke count?

edna | July 20, 2007, 4:51pm | #

My wife grew up in Iran. Her mother taught her to stay away from Jews because they suck your blood.

silly lady. it's rare that we're hungry enough to drink iranian babies' blood when there's so much delicious aryan blood out there, just waiting.

taboo? | July 20, 2007, 4:53pm | #

What about the down low, i.e. that black dudes occasionally like to have sex with other black dudes? What's up with that evolutionary-wise?

Rattlesnake Jake | July 20, 2007, 4:55pm | #

I have read that it has been found that the pineal gland in the brains of homosexual men are the same size as pineal glands in the brains of women, smaller than heterosexual males.

Urkobold™ | July 20, 2007, 4:56pm | #

DID THE URKOBOLD SAY BASE 2.5? THAT WAS A TYPO. HE MEANT TO SAY BASE ∞.

JewBoy | July 20, 2007, 4:57pm | #

Well we have to drink the blood of infant goyim.
You can't expect us to drink out of the wells we poisoned.

SIV | July 20, 2007, 5:00pm | #

....most gay people experience homosexuality as inborn to the degree that they just can't believe it's not genetic....

Why don't high heel (and other) fetishists feel this way?

edna | July 20, 2007, 5:15pm | #

Do the theories of David Icke count?

only to ten, mudhead.

highnumber | July 20, 2007, 5:19pm | #

[Obligatory Spinal Tap joke here]

uncle sam | July 20, 2007, 5:38pm | #

A combination of genetic factors and pre-natal hormonal influence modify the development of the area of the brain which determines response to pheromones, hence, homosexuals respond to pheromones of the same gender.

Michael Pack | July 20, 2007, 5:40pm | #

On another subject,why can't people control their body parts for their own profit?In death the money could go to the estate .I find it perplexing that many of the people against this are pro choice and think a women controls her body.In the same vein some want laws against women for drinking,smoking,and drug use when pregnant.Personally I think property rights are the basis of all rights,starting with owning one's self.

D.A. Ridgely | July 20, 2007, 5:47pm | #

only to ten, mudhead.
Holy Mudhead, Mackerel! More Science High, it's, it's disappeared!

joeo | July 20, 2007, 6:14pm | #

The chicago sun times article is reprinted from here:

http://edge.org/documents/archive/edge214.html

They cut at least one dangerous idea:

Are Ashkenazi Jews, on average, smarter than gentiles because their ancestors were selected for the shrewdness needed in money lending?

muchsarcasm | July 20, 2007, 6:23pm |