From the AP Wire: "A police officer lights a bonfire of confiscated rifles at the Lake Tanganyika stadium in Kigoma, Tanzania. Some 2,000 guns were surrendered last year under a program to rid the country of illegal weapons."
Think it'll work?
Gun Control in Tanzania
Comments to "Gun Control in Tanzania":
ed | January 24, 2007, 10:49am | #
I hope he remembered to unload them.VM | January 24, 2007, 10:51am | #
"Think it'll work?"depends. If the ratio of lighter fluid:charcoal is greater than 2, it just might.
ed: just wait 'til our favorite batshit insane dude shows up. He'll point out that guns don't even need to be loaded to fire!
This reminds me of one of the truly stupidest policies I have ever seen, the gun buyback programs. Luckily, I have not heard of these in a while, perhaps they faded out.
I hope the guy in the photo isn't a Texas A&M cadet grad. They have bad luck with bonfires.
Alright gun geeks (I'm a wannabe), can anyone recognize any models in that pile? (besides AKs)
VM | January 24, 2007, 11:01am | #
Timothy:oh my! mercy!
But he's always struck me as a type who's into "Autocorrelation"...
swillfredo pareto | January 24, 2007, 11:05am | #
Some 2,000 guns were surrendered last year under a program to rid the country of illegal weapons.What kind of person surrenders his illegal weapons? If the criminals in this country were kind enough to do that we could get rid of most of our retarded gun laws.
I wonder how many old M1 Garands are mixed in there? I'm going to go cry myself to sleep....
I actually don't see any AKs. Look's like a bunch of crappy old bolt-actions from the WWII era U.K. colonial defense forces.
joe | January 24, 2007, 11:10am | #
"Think it'll work?"Depends on whether they left enough space between the rifles to let the air get in.
haywood's proxy | January 24, 2007, 11:11am | #
Think it'll work?It depends on what you mean. It probably won't rid the country of weapons but probably will reduce the number of weapons.
So I'll answer "kind of".
Pi Guy | January 24, 2007, 11:16am | #
Guns don't kill. Husbands who come home early from work do, though.- Larry the Cable Guy
mediageek | January 24, 2007, 11:16am | #
"This reminds me of one of the truly stupidest policies I have ever seen, the gun buyback programs. Luckily, I have not heard of these in a while, perhaps they faded out."You still see them once in awhile, but they're no longer federally supported.
I've known of more than one gun owner who used a gun buy-up program as a way to get compensated for old, broken and worthless firearms.
Lamar | January 24, 2007, 11:17am | #
"Look's like a bunch of crappy old bolt-actions from the WWII era U.K. colonial defense forces."The M1917 Enfield. "Crappy" wouldn't be my adjective, but I guess compared to an M16....
greg | January 24, 2007, 11:21am | #
"This reminds me of one of the truly stupidest policies I have ever seen, the gun buyback programs. Luckily, I have not heard of these in a while, perhaps they faded out."Nope, we had one in here in harrisburg, PA in december, and it was such a "resounding sucess" (according to police) they are in the midst of planning another one!
And of course, there was the report on the news of all the vintage and antique guns turned in. Some of them didn't look as if they'd been fired in half a century or more.
VM: Perhaps, I mean it wouldn't surprise me if he was undergoing some kind of regression.
OK, I take it back. The .303 Lee Enfield was a fine weapon. But for hut defense I would definitely keep the AK and give the bolt action to the government confiscator.
VM | January 24, 2007, 11:29am | #
Timothy:a very logit deduction!
Did anyone else notice the .219 Zipper in the pile?
Since it is a Government program, it's just for show so the great leaders (may they rule forever) can point to it and say they have done something. So give them more money and they will do this all the time.
Grummun | January 24, 2007, 11:39am | #
Eh, the 1917 Enfield was manufactured for American troops, and was chambered in .30-06. The 1914 Enfield was the same gun, chambered in .303 Brit. Both actions are very similar to the 98 Mauser. The Short Magazine Lee-Enfield, also chambered in .303 Brit, was a good weapon, but I rate the Mauser pattern higher.I don't see anything that looks like Lee-Enfields, really. Depending on who's former colony Tanzania is, those could be crappy old French rifles.
Red | January 24, 2007, 11:46am | #
maybe those are the faulty rifles.You know, the kind that get you cast out in the desert with no rations or canteens.
NoStar | January 24, 2007, 11:47am | #
Burning Man is passé.This is Burning Gun!
(No apologies whatsoever to Brian Doherty.)
hotrod | January 24, 2007, 11:51am | #
"Burning Man is passé.This is Burning Gun!"
I got your burning gun right here, baby!
mediageek | January 24, 2007, 11:54am | #
You know, that's nothing more than a stack of bolt-action rifles.AKA hunting rifles.
So much for the claim by the gun control crowd that they don't want to take away your deer gun.
I don't get this: 'confiscated' vs. 'surrendered'. Which is it? 'Cause the latter is not the same as the former, although 'surrendered under threat of force' would be.
Eric | January 24, 2007, 12:16pm | #
"...so you see, Mr. Secretary General, we are taking substantive steps toward curbing the mind-boggling violence in our nation."Now about that foreign aide package..."
Eric | January 24, 2007, 12:21pm | #
Grummun,Another distinction to bring up is the one between "illegal" and "legal" firearms. What exactly counts as a legal firearm in Tanzania?
KoWT | January 24, 2007, 12:36pm | #
Instead of begging borrowing money to round up guns and destroy them in a bizarre public spectaclethey shoulda sold the guns on the internet and used the money for something useful
like education
or communications infrastructure
I bet there's some nice guns in those stacks
or maybe they pulled the ones with any value and only burned the dreck?
did the people turning in the guns get baseball tickets?
I once turned in a broken pistol for Twins tickets
J sub D | January 24, 2007, 12:49pm | #
We should all be elated that gun violence in Tanzania is now a thing of the past.If you're skeptical of that claim, you must be a right wing cynic.
Isaac Bartram | January 24, 2007, 12:51pm | #
I think I can see at least one Lee Enfield there but I'm afraid it's too hard for me to see clearly on such a small picture.Since Tanganyika was a German colony that was taken over by the British after WWI it is likely that there are plenty of both German Mausers and Lee Enfields. After all military surplus weapons are popular with people on limited budgets. And it is likely that almost every rural household had one at one time.
However for the most part these appear to be bolt action hunting rifles and a few shotguns so mediageek is right. They do want your deer rifle. But after the gun control crowd's allies at the Humane Society of the United States has gotten hunting banned you won't need it anyway.
As for this it's not gun control it's outright vandalism.
James | January 24, 2007, 12:53pm | #
Eric: I don't think anyone is allowed firearms in Tanzania unless they are licensed security guards. I was there a couple of years ago and rarely saw any weapons. So I don't understand the program, really. In Kenya and Uganda there were heavily armed security guards everywhere, but fewer in Tanzania.And, yes, all of East Africa was British. I saw rural banks guarded by fellows with .303s in Uganda. I think the guns were almost a badge of office rather than intended for actual use. They way they swung them around you had to convince yourself they were unloaded or be afraid to leave your hotel. Passing a police barracks in Nairobi I saw an actual policeman sitting down and leaning on his AK with the muzzle jammed into the ground. Downtown I saw a security guard dragging an FN-FAL (probably actually an L1A1) by the strap, with the muzzle scraping on the sidewalk behind him.
Tanzania is pretty safe to travel in, but Kigoma is in the west, along Lake Tanganyika, which they share with Zambia, the Congo, and Burundi. There is an illegal immigrant problem there because of refugees from the regional wars and occasionally the psychotics in the Congo take their act to the other side of the Lake. I heard stories of lake pirates killing all the passengers on the small water taxis that ferry the locals along the shore. Frankly, I wouldn't turn in my weapon in that part of the country, even though the actual incidence of violence was quite small.
In Kigoma, which is a small city chiefly known as a staging point for international aid organizations doing their futile work in the Congo, I was told it was quite safe for a tourist to be out and about until midnight. I wouldn't say that about a lot of places in the US.
The Lake, incidentally, is worth seeing before it gets all screwed up. It is perfectly clear, with visibility down to fifteen feet. There is very little traffic on it and, at night, it is lit by the lanterns of the local fishermen. They put lights on three small boats in a circle (always three) with their main boat in the middle. When the cichlids (little fish abuot the size of a minnow) come up to inspect the lights, they get netted by the thousand. The fishermen dry them on the rocks and people eat them whole, like sardines.
James | January 24, 2007, 1:04pm | #
Isaac: I wouldn't expect to find any Mausers after so much time. The German forces in East Africa were never very large-no more than a few thousand-and not especially well-equipped, although they fought it out until the war was over in Europe. But after WW2 when the African wars were really getting going and the Cold War countries had so very many weapons in storage to give away, the continent got flooded. Tanzania was "non-aligned" but Socialist, so I would expect more Moisins than Mausers.Fun story to tell about German East Africa: the officer in charge of the German forces there became a national hero for holding out against the British for the duration of the war. All the more so after WW2 when it was revealed that he had refused to serve under Hitler. When he died in 1964, the Bundestag decided to honor him by giving his African soldiers their back pay.
The German banker assigned to the job was faced with the daunting problem of trying to figure out which of the applicants had actually served under him. None of them had papers and many of them had brought scraps of old uniforms and lots of stories to bolster their claims. He resorted to obtaining a couple of broomsticks, handing them to the old men, and demanding that they perform drill. He had served in the war and knew that no German soldier ever forgot the manual of arms.
R C Dean | January 24, 2007, 1:38pm | #
Man, I'm sure I see at least one side-hammer piece, which would almost have to be a black powder gun of some kind.Real threat to the peace of the realm, there.
Chris Peterson | January 24, 2007, 1:44pm | #
Guns don't kill people; people with mustaches kill people.Eric the .5b | January 24, 2007, 1:50pm | #
I got your burning gun right here, baby!Penicillin still works for that, I think.
Larry A | January 24, 2007, 2:19pm | #
Eh, the 1917 Enfield was manufactured for American troops, and was chambered...Wow. Gun geeks. I fit right in.
I don't get this: 'confiscated' vs. 'surrendered'. Which is it?
"Confiscated" is when the government comes and gets your gun. "Surrendered" is when the government forces you to save them the trip.
I wouldn't expect to find any Mausers after so much time. The German forces in East Africa were never very large-no more than a few thousand-and not especially well-equipped, although they fought it out until the war was over in Europe.
OTOH I have over my fireplace a Nazi Mauser I found, and legally brought back, from a VC cache in Vietnam. They weren't prevalent, but it wasn't that unusual to find them. I do wish I knew the back story, though.
James | January 24, 2007, 2:36pm | #
Larry A: was it truly "Nazi?" The Nationalist Chinese had German advisors in the 1930's (it is said that it was these advisors that developed the "firebase system" first used by the Nationalists in one of their "Bandit Suppression" campaigns). The Nationalists were so enamored of the Germans that they adopted at least some 7.92mm weapons. I was just reading last night that the Bren was originally designed in 7.92mm for the Czech Army, was converted to .303 for the British, and converted back to 7.92mm for export to the Nationalists.I think the backstory would probably be that the weapon came from Nationalist Chinese stocks, captured by the Communists, and shovelled onto the Viet Minh as aid in the early 1950's.
Gun buy back programs sound like a great fence for criminals to profit from stolen firearms.
NeonCat | January 24, 2007, 4:26pm | #
Larry A:Well, considering how broke the French were in '45 it wouldn't surprise me to learn they brought German rifles to Indochina. Not to mention the large number of ex-Wehrmacht who joined the Legion Etrangere who would probably prefer K98s over MAS 36s…
mediageek | January 24, 2007, 5:23pm | #
NeonCat-Not just German rifles, but also German handguns. After WWII, the French occupied manufacturing facilities for the P-38 handgun.
The French took these handguns and issued them to their military.
They're now called "Grey Ghosts" on account of the parkerizing finish the French gave them, and the command a quite princely sum on the collector's market.
Isaac Bartram | January 24, 2007, 6:30pm | #
Thank you, James for that correction. You are most probably right. I was just speculating; I suspect that I am still correct about the SMLE though. In the British Commonwealth it is the staple of war surplus rifles adapted to civilian use. Most are used as is but some Australian and Canadian "sporterizations" are works of art.Larry A, the Russians have a huge cache of captured German K-98s. The gave them the old arsenal once-over and packed them in cosmoline for an emergency. They ground the Nazi markings from most but some survived intact. A good part of the supply off collectors' pieces coming onto the US collectors' and reenactors market comes from that supply. I would not be surprised if the Soviets had shipped a few to the North Vietnamese (or to someone else who in turn shipped them to...).
Another source could be Yugoslavia. The Germans actually set up a plant there. A few pieces with Nazi markings produced before 1945 (the plant produced rifles on the K98 pattern until well into the 50s) may never have even been issued. As such they could command out of the world prices from collectors.
NeonCat's French connection sounds plausible as well. Mind you, in most of the newsreel footage of Dien Bien Phu that I have seen it is the M1 Carbines and M1 Garands that stand out. It seems that after WWII some of our allies got huge supplies of these fine weapons. A good part of the Garands now available thru the CMP are returned "loaners" from the Danish Army (some of which have been rebuilt, including new barrels, by Berretta in Italy, who also manufactured same under license for use by the Italian Army) who used them until about 1982.
However as James seems to be winning the best informed commenter so far, I'm thinking of throwing my lot in with his Chinese connection. If the Germans were still shipping M98s to the Nationalist Chinese in the 30s it seems likely that a few might have had Nazi markings.
Whatever its story you seem to own a unique piece of history that would command a high price from a dedicated collector. But, somehow, I doubt you are interested in selling. By the way, do you ever shoot it? (while I like collecting I shy away from buying anything I can't shoot).
Isaac Bartram | January 24, 2007, 6:39pm | #
Man, I'm sure I see at least one side-hammer piece, which would almost have to be a black powder gun of some kind.I see quite a few rounded pistol grips. While there a quite a few rifles and field grade shotguns with that feature it is also common on fine English shotguns. If there are any of those they could be priceless.
Captain Holly | January 24, 2007, 7:09pm | #
I've known of more than one gun owner who used a gun buy-up program as a way to get compensated for old, broken and worthless firearms.That's always been my goal. My brother has an old, worthless Western Auto 20 ga single shot that is unsafe to fire. I'm sure he'd love to unload it for $50 bucks, or even a grocery coupon.
However, this being Utah, the rich liberals who would fund such an event (Robert Redford) know that there are probably thousands of such guns stored in the closets and garages of Zion and a gun buyback would only provide the owners a downpayment for a new gun.
That, and the waiting line for the buyback would turn into an impromptu gun show...
Dee | January 25, 2007, 3:15pm | #
Haywood- again with the "it might kinda sorta work," comment.. Dude are you from the recent school mentality where 2+2 doesn't = 17836266 but you sure tried hard and thats all that counts? You sure seem to celebrate government programs coming close to a successful outcome even though you can not provide any true examples of a single one.Looks like a bunch of .303 British rifles and assorted Mausers to me. Whats so stupid about burning them besides the obvious fact it will do nothing to stop crime is that for such a piss poor country they might have been able to sell them and put a few $$ in the treasury. But then what do you expect from dumbasses that believe this will impact anything to begin with.
Guns are not that complex a piece of equipment to make to begin with. Unless your talking about fine grade match quality guns. But besides that all one needs to make a gun is a piece of good pipe, a shotgun shell with a ball bearing glued to the primer and a hammer. Crude of course but still very functional especially close up. So unless they plan to outlaw pipe and hammers they are SOL.
Dee | January 25, 2007, 4:44pm | #
This just in -http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/paFiguresThurs18Crimefiguresud2Substitute.html
Seems the Brits gun control is working just as they hoped. Maybe this African country will have so much success as well. Or as Haywood would say, at least they are trying even if they fail kinda sorta sometimes.