Watch this YouTube video:
Watch Bill O'Reilly's reaction:
Discuss.
Weekend Comments Section Flame War Fodder
Comments to "Weekend Comments Section Flame War Fodder":
John C. Randolph | December 9, 2006, 10:32am | #
I think that whoever wrote the diatribe that this little girl is reciting should have said it himself. There's a lot of package-dealing going on here, and putting words in a kid's mouth to make your stump speech is pretty lame.-jcr
John C. Randolph | December 9, 2006, 10:35am | #
Of course, describing this as "child abuse" is more than a little hystrionic. Take a pill, Bill.-jcr
Richard Dawkins | December 9, 2006, 10:38am | #
Can anyone say with certainty that sexual abuse is worse than threatening children with hellfire?Aaron Powell | December 9, 2006, 10:47am | #
The whole discussion of it being child abuse to make a child espouse beliefs she can't possibly understand sounds more than a little familiar. Has O'Reilly ever been to Sunday school or, perhaps, seen Jesus Camp?The point has been made over and over again, but to raise a child in religion, to teach a kid that a magical man in the sky wants her to behave in a certain way or she will spend eternity suffering, is, unquestionably, child abuse.
winston smith | December 9, 2006, 10:47am | #
Ah yes, the virtues of free speech.In this corner, ladies and gentlemen, wearing the false face of an angry liberal, a lame attack on conservatives and the republican party by an ad agency trying to promote a musical group who may or may not be able to make their voices heard in any other manner.
And in this corner, Biiiiiiiiilllllll O'Reiiiiillllyyyyyyy, in his trademark facade of a caring human being, spewing vitriolic banter to try to enrage a society which made Jackass the Movie a hit.
Let's get it ooonnnnnn!
jf | December 9, 2006, 10:48am | #
jcj,Agreed, and agreed. Whoever put the kid up to it is a coward and nowhere near as clever as he thinks he is. Still, it's not child abuse.
Michael Chaney | December 9, 2006, 10:52am | #
So, the Nazis were "religious"? Interesting. As long as we're just making stuff up why not claim that international communism was religious in nature, also, to add another 60-100 million deaths attributable to religion?J sub D | December 9, 2006, 10:57am | #
Aaron,Those were very valid points. Expect to be flamed by the "true believers".
Happy Jack | December 9, 2006, 10:57am | #
The ultimate inhumane treatment of a childUh, no. Using a kid for a prop is feeble, but I can envision a worse treatment.
Excimer | December 9, 2006, 10:58am | #
I wonder if Mr. O'Reilly thinks this commercial would be considered child abuse too, and if those parents are "nuts." Then consider if any of those kids turned out gay.I am thinking maybe (just maybe) that whoever made this video has a rather extreme sense of satire. Children are, after all, the mass media's way of letting you know the painfully obvious. To have a child spit vitriol like that is no different than Jesus camp.
swillfredo pareto | December 9, 2006, 11:07am | #
Is This Child Abuse? ponders Bill. According to Child Advocate Wendy Murphy it was the “ultimate inhumane treatment of a child”. Apparently Wendy doesn’t get out much. Here in Tampa we have a child murdered with a fair degree of frequency. I am struggling to figure out which is worse, having a child read a damn funny rant from cue cards or burying her alive. Perhaps Wendy can give me some guidance.Jonathan C. Hohensee | December 9, 2006, 11:09am | #
I hate both sides with a vengence. Excuse me while I punch some walls.Zeno | December 9, 2006, 11:10am | #
Michael Chaney,I don't know if that is what this kid was referring to, but Nazi ideology (which one must admit wasn't all that coherent at times) did have its religious elements. Much of this dealt with adoption of past Pagan practices (updated, etc. for Nazi purposes), the use of "occult" practices, etc. The Nazis even had a basic central myth - that the Germanic people derived from a race of "supermen" the last remnants of which had survived a cataclysm (at Atlantis or some other locale). That doesn't mean that every rank and file Nazi member believed this stuff, but a lot of them probably did. It also again doesn't mean that there was a completely coherent position on these matters - in other words as far as I can tell the religious beliefs of the Nazis were all over the place.
jms | December 9, 2006, 11:12am | #
jf,part of the point of her speech is that children should be reagrded as adults, rather than as mouthpeices for thier parents. so having a kid say it seems to make that point valid, though if it is just a parent feeding lines to their kid, that would be a self-contradiction of immense proportions.
i'm just wondering what exactly constitutes insanity in bill o'reilley's world. i'm thinking i should make a number of videos of similar proportions, just so bill could spend a half-hour psychologizing my abuzive childhood via youtube.
madpad | December 9, 2006, 11:13am | #
I hate both sides with a vengence.Says it all for me, Jonathan, but don't break your hands. It's pointless to get that angry over idiots like this.
Nincompoops like this don't go away. They keep popping up throughout history making life miserable for everyone else.
madpad | December 9, 2006, 11:20am | #
in other words as far as I can tell the religious beliefs of the Nazis were all over the place.It should be pointed out that with all the various denomination and sub-elements, (and I say this as a serious, church-going Christian who's indocrinating - er, raising - my kids in the faith) Christian beliefs appear to be all over the place as well.
I think that goes for Muslim religious beliefs as well.
Always some dingus out there wanting to put their own spin on things, I guess.
I'd like to make a video showing Jesus Christ taking both sides out to the woodshed and saying, "Neither of you understand My message. Read the fucking Book!"
J sub D | December 9, 2006, 11:24am | #
I hate both sides with a vengence.Says it all for me, Jonathan, but don't break your hands. It's pointless to get that angry over idiots like this.
Nincompoops like this don't go away. They keep popping up throughout history making life miserable for everyone else.
Wow! Libertarians aren't left or right? They're just rational.
Anonymous Coward | December 9, 2006, 11:28am | #
If Allah is just and merciful, Bill O'Reilly and Michael Moore will spend the eternal afterlife licking each other's assholes in Borat/Azamat fashion.Otherwise, what Winston said.
Willy's | December 9, 2006, 11:29am | #
Yes, this is child abuse. But who are the abusers? I was raised by 'true' believers; 'true what' may still be unknown but believers by god.The abuse leaders here are congress for taking us to a place where this discussion exists, the public for letting congress fail, the press for failure to expose congress and adults for failure to educate children or each other.
The abuse of this child in this video is nothing different from the actions of a living Jon Benet Ramsey entertainment session but I can hear the kiddo's protection services knocking down the door now.
Jonathan C. Hohensee | December 9, 2006, 11:40am | #
I don't know if that is what this kid was referring to, but Nazi ideology (which one must admit wasn't all that coherent at times) did have its religious elements. Much of this dealt with adoption of past Pagan practices (updated, etc. for Nazi purposes), the use of "occult" practices, etc.Intresting piece of triva; using Rasputin, back from the dead, the Nazis summoned a small demonic creature who would one day be known as the indespensible superhero known as HELLBOY!
Wow! Libertarians aren't left or right? They're just rational.
I'm not saying the left and the right as a whole fustrates me, just that the two sides of that argument make me sick. The what the kid was saying was annoying smug (and sounded like something that would come out of an "enlightened" college student) and Bill was a historonic crybaby.
Zeno | December 9, 2006, 11:41am | #
madpad,Sure. Sure.
My larger point was that there was no coherent doctrine. In part that is because they were just then inventing this stuff and the relative shortness of the regime. They'd have probably come up with a more uniform vision if they had lasted longer. Luckily that didn't happen. Of course, unluckily the Nazi regime lasted long enough to kill ~twenty million people.
To paraphrase Samuel Clemens, Heaven may have a better climate, but I'll bet Hell has better conversation.
ZK | December 9, 2006, 11:45am | #
I think you've all overlooked something: the little girl's diatribe starts off against O'Reilly, but he doesn't bother to mention that. He doesn't bother to give the website, so as far as a Fox viewer knows, he's just a vigilant fighter of "child abuse" (quotes to indicate that this treatment is not quite at the level of regular child abuse stories).ZK | December 9, 2006, 11:46am | #
The implication being that he's just a self-obsessed pr*ck.Jonathan C. Hohensee | December 9, 2006, 12:07pm | #
I would love to see one of Keith Olberman's signature completely-sophic-and-full-of-him-self-but-still-fun-to-watch-anyways-rant on the video of the little girl.Ken Shultz | December 9, 2006, 12:09pm | #
While I disagree that using your kid for something like that constitutes child abuse, I wouldn't use my kid for something like that....and I disagree with some of the things the little girl said, but what am I gonna do--argue with a toddler?
"And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased, And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?"
----Matthew 21:15,16
There's just something about little kids speaking truth to power that really gets people's attention.
Oh, and speaking of memory verses, if that concerned parent / psychologist / child abuse expert / whatever she was really thinks that indoctrinating little kids and getting them to memorize things constitutes child abuse, then she should raid every fundamentalist church in America.
...Oh, the texts I know by heart!
Seriously, I didn't agree with much of what that toddler said, but the toddler made a lot more sense than the expert did.
Tim Cavanaugh | December 9, 2006, 12:17pm | #
Did anybody else notice the disconnect in the child abuse expert's strongest case against the video? Apparently the real crime is that it will inspire a religious nut to hunt down and kill the child.madpad | December 9, 2006, 12:25pm | #
the toddler made a lot more sense than the expert did.Said, not without irony, "Amen."
Apparently the real crime is that it will inspire a religious nut to hunt down and kill the child.
I don't know...maybe it'll inspire some nut to hunt down and kill Bill O'Reilly. (Props to Quentin Tarantino, btw)
Bill Mill | December 9, 2006, 12:32pm | #
Did anyone else notice how crazy the child-protector lady looks at the start of that segment?scaryt screencap
mjs | December 9, 2006, 12:42pm | #
Let the flaming commence...How is this that different from Santorum's kids on the podium when he lost?
madpad | December 9, 2006, 12:44pm | #
How is this that different from Santorum's kids on the podium when he lost?Santorum's kids were funnier.
Mad Scientist | December 9, 2006, 12:46pm | #
I suspect the whole thing started like this:Guy in bar: "I hate that Bill O'Reilly."
2nd Guy in bar: "Yeah, me too."
1st guy: "$5 says we can make a video that insults everything O'Reilly believes in so much that he wets himself."
2nd guy: "Great idea! We'd have to make fun of religion, say violent video games are cool..."
I suspect those who made this video weren't so interested in making a point about rap, video games, and religion as they were in giving O'Reilly an aneurysm. The whole thing plays out as something calculated to bother Bill as much as possible. They name him specifically, they imply religious people are no better than Nazis, they go on to say watching South Park and Family Guy are educational whereas religion is fictitious. I think they're just calling Bill out, and it seems to have worked. Watch it again from that perspective and it's just freaking hillarious.
David | December 9, 2006, 12:58pm | #
I think it's funny that O'Reilly left off the part about him being an idiot for blaming rap and video games for country's ill. That's the only part of the video that wasn't just opinion.Anyway, I wouldn't call this child abuse based on the video alone. If this was a live performance by a little indoctrtinated robot, I'd be more inclined to say yes, but even then, making your spout political opinions is way down on my list of abusive behavior.
I do wonder what O'Reilly's attitude would be if the girl was holding a "GOD HATES FAGS" sign instead?
Good point, Mad Scientist. The whole thing really works because O'Reilly is nothing if not predictable
Jonathan C. Hohensee | December 9, 2006, 1:00pm | #
My interpitation of it is "let's take down The Man!" and "let get people pay attention to us so they listen to our band!"The Family Guy thing struck me as bad taste more than agent provocateuring.
Ken Shultz | December 9, 2006, 1:00pm | #
I suspect those who made this video weren't so interested in making a point about rap, video games, and religion as they were in giving O'Reilly an aneurysm.Yeah, O'Reilly actually puttin' it out there was probably the best thing that could have happened for the people who made the video--and unless I'm mistaken, they put it out there to promote their band, right?
...I'd bet that, even as I type, there are a hundred struggling bands out there, right now, cuin' their cameras up and teachin' their kids something inflamatory to say about Bill O'Reilly. This could be good for Bill, too. This could be for Bill what DNA tests were for Maury Povich!
MainstreamMan | December 9, 2006, 1:01pm | #
Toddler?Give the girl some credit. I would guess between 8 and 10 years old. She understands (to a degree) most of what she is saying. Kids aren't so stupid.
For some fun... some words from the lead Bastard Fairy...
"Yellow Thunder Woman is my real name, it is the english translation of my American Indian name Wakinyan Zi Win. My parents wanted to register me by my Indian name but they were not allowed to use Indian language on my birth certificate, another nice little cultural genocide policy courtesy of the US government. I am a Singer an Artist and a Film maker. My art reflects my views on the state of the world, religon and myself. My father was a painter and an outspoken bastard, I think I must have inhereted his disease, terminally. My music is exactly like my mind - obscene, ironic, sarcastic and sprinkled with a little bit of sugar sweetness on top. I just co-directed my new film The Canary Effect which will premiere at The Tribeca Festival in New York April 2006. It is the first documentary I have seen that presents a deeply disturbing subject with a Rock N Roll edge and I am extremely proud to have contributed to it.
I am taking the liberty to try and convince everybody I possibly can that optimism is dangerous and pessimism is stupid. I think people should be as real as they possible can be, even if that means being an asshole or a nun, or an asshole nun. I believe that everybody is religous in their own personal way even though we dont like to think so. SO SUCK ON THAT."
I'm not trying to start any rumors, but it would explain a lot if right-wing TV personalities (and quasi-rightists like Bill O'Reilly) were actually invented by left-wingers to make themselves look good. Similarly, many left-wingers act like they were created by Karl Rove to make Republicans look good.
Jonathan C. Hohensee | December 9, 2006, 1:02pm | #
The band actually doesn't sound that bad, sad to admit;http://www.thebastardfairies.com/Site%202/THE%20BASTARD%20FAIRIES%20Memento%20Mori_files/APPLEPIE.mp3
"Mr. O'Reilly, there's some guy's agent on line one. He wants you do denounce his client's band."
MainstreamMan | December 9, 2006, 1:07pm | #
And, to be the first to point it out, Yellow Thunder Woman is hot.http://myspace-414.vo.llnwd.net/01427/41/44/1427824414_m.jpg
dead_elvis | December 9, 2006, 1:10pm | #
The ultimate inhumane treatment of a childHyperbole is absolutely the most disgusting, vile, and immoral act a person can commit.
J sub D | December 9, 2006, 1:11pm | #
And, to be the first to point it out, Yellow Thunder Woman is hot.No doubt about it.
Dave B. | December 9, 2006, 1:15pm | #
How is Tim the only other person to think that the most ridiculous part of this video was O'Reilly's guest talking about how ridiculous her accusations were and then worrying about someone getting so offended that they hunt down and kill the little girl and her family?Dave B. | December 9, 2006, 1:17pm | #
Mad Max - That would explain why some of them don't seem to understand that the Colbert Report is a farce.Guy Montag | December 9, 2006, 1:20pm | #
Mad Scientist,You have used a conversation with myself without permission.
Oh, you forgot the dirty dry gin martini.
Ken Shultz | December 9, 2006, 1:21pm | #
How is Tim the only other person to think that the most ridiculous part of this video was O'Reilly's guest talking about how ridiculous her accusations were and then worrying about someone getting so offended that they hunt down and kill the little girl and her family?The rest of us have warped personalities.
thoreau | December 9, 2006, 1:23pm | #
Yep, Tim nailed it.I suspect those who made this video weren't so interested in making a point about rap, video games, and religion as they were in giving O'Reilly an aneurysm.
Well, at least they did it for a good cause.
I want Bill O'Reilly to issue a fatwa against my research articles. There's nothing offensive in them, but I need to get my name out there and build a reputation. So maybe Bill could do that?
I know: I'll have a kid read an excerpt from one of my articles, then say that science is much better than religion, then call Bill O'Reilly an idiot, and put it on YouTube.
TCR | December 9, 2006, 1:30pm | #
These people are definitely just trying to get publicity for their band and O'Reilly played right into their hands with it.IMHO: No it's not "Child Abuse" but it is pretty sad to see a little kid spouting this kind of garbage. I wouldn't make my kids do something like that.
I know I'll get flamed for saying this, but religion has its good side too. You can't just point at all the violence that stems from religion without looking at some of the good it has contributed to the world over the centuries. And this is coming from a committed non-believer.
MainstreamMan | December 9, 2006, 1:31pm | #
"Yep, Tim nailed it.I suspect those who made this video weren't so interested in making a point about rap, video games, and religion as they were in giving O'Reilly an aneurysm."
A look at the band's webpage would indicate that they were savvy enough to include Bill's name to get attention, but that the views expressed were what they really feel.
The music's hit and miss, but better than expected given the dumb song tagged on the end of the youtube clip.
Rick Barton | December 9, 2006, 1:37pm | #
Ken Shultz:Seriously, I didn't agree with much of what that toddler said, but the toddler made a lot more sense than the expert did.
Yeah really. and what does it say for this "expert" that a little widget coached by her knee-jerk liberal parents is more coherent.
(BTW, in common parlance are little kids still referred to as "widgets".)
Warren | December 9, 2006, 1:39pm | #
I love that girl!Abuse?? In only if every child that recites lines in front of a camera is abused. As for what she's saying, I gotta agree, it's way less disturbing than what they teach in Sunday School.
MainstreamMan | December 9, 2006, 1:40pm | #
"pretty sad to see a little kid spouting this kind of garbage"I would like to give props to Excimer for pointing out that this type of thing is a daily occurence. Nothing out of the ordinary about hiring a child actor to say some lines. Is this more abusive than having a child participate in a horror movie? Does it even approach some of the things on Wundershowzen? Look at the terrible results this type of abuse had on Jodie Foster...
madpad | December 9, 2006, 1:42pm | #
BTW, in common parlance are little kids still referred to as "widgets"(?)Were they ever?
phosphorious | December 9, 2006, 1:47pm | #
Tim Cavanaugh:Did anybody else notice the disconnect in the child abuse expert's strongest case against the video? Apparently the real crime is that it will inspire a religious nut to hunt down and kill the child.
And what makes it actually funny, is that this is an admission that. . .those religious types? they'll KILL ya. . .
RSDavis | December 9, 2006, 1:47pm | #
It's natural for people to want their children to be mirrors of their own opinions. It happens in every family, until about 15-16 years old, when the kid starts to rebel and let their friends think for them instead of their parents. Then at 18 - 19, they start thinking for themselves. Then they meet someone who shares their point of view, hook up, and fruitlessly try to indoctrinate their own children. It's a losing game, but one the vast majority of parents try to play.I don't worry too much about it.
- Rick
Troy | December 9, 2006, 1:48pm | #
As a parent, I am entitled, neigh, legally obligated, to brainwash another human being. This is what I am teaching my child...the fucking truth. Fuck God and bill if they can't take a joke.Secondly, if this is the worst this "child advocate" has seen, then she is one sheltered stupid bitch. I get to see pictures of bruised labias on 11 month old girls from their parents, of friends thereof, dinking them. What a stupid bitch.
And you know what else? I am getting my kid World of Warcraft for Christmas. Fucking, eh. Why? 1) It is a cool fun game. 2) It inculcates communicating and cooperating with other human beings to achieve a common goal. Oh, the humanity!
Oh, and I like how at the end the Advocate hint that we should self-censor because whackjobs can't fucking handle reality. Fuck her.
But if the parent did do something wrong, it was put her on there and put her at risk because the O'Riellys of the world will think it is some kind of devine justice to see this girl harmed.
MainstreamMan | December 9, 2006, 1:52pm | #
"I am getting my kid World of Warcraft for Christmas. Fucking, eh. Why?"Because you don't have a life?*
Or you don't want him to have a life?
*IMHO the only funny Southpark in ages.
Jonathan C. Hohensee | December 9, 2006, 1:59pm | #
I want Bill O'Reilly to issue a fatwa against my research articles. There's nothing offensive in them, but I need to get my name out there and build a reputation. So maybe Bill could do that?Research how Christans are more likely to kill babies than non-Christains. Or how the words "Happy Holidays" can cure lupus.
Or find the connection between loofahs and falafels.
Richard Dawkins | December 9, 2006, 2:01pm | #
I know I'll get flamed for saying this, but religion has its good side too. You can't just point at all the violence that stems from religion without looking at some of the good it has contributed to the world over the centuries. And this is coming from a committed non-believer.
Christianity is good when it is a counterweight against communism or Islam, which it has been many times throughout its history.
madpad | December 9, 2006, 2:03pm | #
It's a losing game, but one the vast majority of parents try to play.RSD, I'm pretty sure I read about a study not long ago that showed that people tend to follow their parent beliefs as they get older (I tried googling for a source but couldn't find it.)
madpad | December 9, 2006, 2:10pm | #
Christianity is good when it is a counterweight against communism or IslamEver notice how the most violent effects of Christianity seemed to evaporate after the Reformation gave folks a competing view of their faith and the Enlightenment subsequently drove institutional Christianity out of direct political influence?
Now the most violent aspects of Christianity come from fringe-dwelling wackos or self-hating fundamentalist politicians and tv personalities. And they invariably get beat down by their own stupidity in the marketplace of ideas.
Who says competition is a bad thing?
Rick Barton | December 9, 2006, 2:13pm | #
Good to see ya, Tim! The "expert" raising the specter of religious nuts hunting down the child is an example of what I call the "Hail Marry Pass" method of argument. The child abuse accusation is obviously without justification so she tosses in a remote possibility to try to make it sound less absurd.sam | December 9, 2006, 2:13pm | #
I really like how the Fundies use the uber-fundies as kind of a veiled threat: "Well, we're reasonable people, but we know some REAL CRAZIES who might KILL you for saying those things, so you'd better just shut the hell up and agree with us."Also:
There was an abortion protest on campus a few weeks ago here, and there were kids who were possibly younger than that girl holding up giant pictures of torn-apart fetuses (3rd-term shit, that wasn't even legal anymore). I'm pretty sure that's on par with anything this girl's parents are making her say.
On the other hand, no "religious fundamentalists" are gonna come after those kids, so it's ok making them do those things.
Also also:
It's been said before, but when that fucking lady said that this was the "worst kind" of child abuse (or whatever) I wanted to choke a bitch, Wayne Brady-style.
-sam
RSDavis | December 9, 2006, 2:16pm | #
RSD, I'm pretty sure I read about a study not long ago that showed that people tend to follow their parent beliefs as they get older (I tried googling for a source but couldn't find it.)I think there is some basic truth to that. At least values-wise. Like the old joke - when I was 16, my father was the dumbest person I knew. By the time I was 25, I was amazed at how much he'd learned. ;)
But I think we still create our own personalities and values, to a degree. For instance, my parents were die-hard Republicans. Small government conservatives.
But me, I'm a libertarian. In my mind, I am just living their principles more consistently than they did. But to me, the values are the same. See what I mean?
Or maybe I am just rambling. I hadn't really given this that much thought before, to tell you the truth. And my kid's only 3, so I've only just begun to brainwash him. I've got to get it in there good before the government school system gets ahold of him and tries to reprogram him. ;)
- Rick
PS. I wonder why there is no "libertarian private school system" like the Catholics do.
Jonathan C. Hohensee | December 9, 2006, 2:23pm | #
RSD, I'm pretty sure I read about a study not long ago that showed that people tend to follow their parent beliefs as they get older (I tried googling for a source but couldn't find it.)I think that would depend on a lot of varying factors; the type of parents, the relationship with the parents, what specific beliefs it is, and how extreme those beliefs are. Speaking personally, my parents were never overtly political and I had no clue what their party affliation was until I was about 18, so there wasn't much to "rebel" against.
Matt | December 9, 2006, 2:23pm | #
Well, when I was that age, I'm fairly certain I had already given my soul to Christ and was well on my way to learning why America is the greatest country ever, Amen.Not, of course, that I had any clue what those things meant back then, but somehow I doubt that would disturb Bill.
KoWT | December 9, 2006, 2:26pm | #
From the first video:"The fact is, the way to stop children from getting mixed up with gangs and violence is treating us like HUMAN BEINGS. We don't need to be taught religion, we need to be taught empathy, and you grownups need to learn what that means"
I agree wholeheartedly
does that make me a liberal?
TCR | December 9, 2006, 2:28pm | #
I wonder why there is no "libertarian private school system" like the Catholics do.I've wondered that myself from time to time. I've also wondered why more Libertarians aren't home schoolers either. The majority of homeschooled kids (in my admittedly limited experience) tend to be from religious nutjuob families.
uncle sam | December 9, 2006, 2:28pm | #
There is a cult that is responsible for the death of many millions of people.The cult of the omnipotent state.
RSDavis | December 9, 2006, 2:33pm | #
I've wondered [why there is no Libertarian Private School System(TM)] myself from time to time. I've also wondered why more Libertarians aren't home schoolers either. The majority of homeschooled kids (in my admittedly limited experience) tend to be from religious nutjuob families.Many are, yes, but many are also poor parents who can't get their kids out of their crappy school any other way. Some are libertarians, too. And some are normal religious people who, like libertarians, are uncomfortable with the indoctrination that takes place at government schools.
Either way, what the home schoolers prove is that no matter how smart you are, if you take an active role in your childrens' education, they will be better off for it.
- Rick
Guy Montag | December 9, 2006, 2:42pm | #
TCR,I used public school as a suppliment to teaching my son at home. Granted, he went to a fine public school and got his CCNA there his junior year of HS, but still, we covered a lot of stuff that they just don't cover in public school that helped him throughout life.
Spending Saturday afternoons at Barns & Noble reading, watching the better cable channels, discussing current events, spending lots of time online researching things, etc.
Now, he turned out as one of those Libertarians who is only against capital punishment because it is not always done right and I am a libertarian who thinks the government should not have that power.
Well, also he went through college in "normal time" under academic scholarships and has a very good job now. Distinctly different from my life at his age.
RSDavis | December 9, 2006, 2:49pm | #
I used public school as a suppliment to teaching my son at home. Granted, he went to a fine public school and got his CCNA there his junior year of HS, but still, we covered a lot of stuff that they just don't cover in public school that helped him throughout life.Spending Saturday afternoons at Barns & Noble reading, watching the better cable channels, discussing current events, spending lots of time online researching things, etc.
I rest my case.
- R
Les | December 9, 2006, 2:53pm | #
The majority of homeschooled kids (in my admittedly limited experience) tend to be from religious nutjuob families.Actually, only about a third of homeschoolers do so for religious reasons. There's some good info in this article.
Lord Duppy | December 9, 2006, 3:03pm | #
How about the Pledge of Allegiance® ? Public schools teach kids to profess reverence for an emblem and undying loyalty to the state before they even know how to read. Child abuse?Honestly, I'm not sure where the line is between parental rights and child abuse, but I'm pretty sure you can't call someone an abuser just for teaching their kid somehting you disagree with. All kids are brainwashed in some way or another, and that's just the way it is.
Mark Borok | December 9, 2006, 3:06pm | #
I didn't have the fortitude to watch the entire clip, but I wonder why no one has brought this up; both O'Reilly's outrage and the outrage of some conservatives over Mary Cheney's baby are ostensibly about one thing (raising a child without a father, using a child to say controversial things in a video) when the real concern, one suspects, is that the parents of these children are raising them with beliefs that O'Reilly et al. don't approve of. The belief that homosexuality is okay, or that religion is a bad thing.And these are the people who objected to Hillary Clinton's borrowing of the African proverb "it takes a village to raise a child." I would rather be raised by an African village (not counting the ones in the middle of a genocidal civil war) than by the Family Research Institute or Bill O'Reilly.
madpad | December 9, 2006, 3:27pm | #
I would rather be raised by an African village (not counting the ones in the middle of a genocidal civil war) than by the Family Research Institute or Bill O'Reilly.I understand your point but I think you picked the wrong alternative.
An African village - pretty much ground zero for AIDS, murders and rapes attacks by armed gangs, malaria, famine, high illiteracy, high infant mortality - is pretty low on my list for places I would ever want to grow up.
For the record, Family Research Institute and Bill O'Reilly are both also pretty low...but the African village is lower.
TrickyVic | December 9, 2006, 3:37pm | #
"""Did anybody else notice the disconnect in the child abuse expert's strongest case against the video? Apparently the real crime is that it will inspire a religious nut to hunt down and kill the child."""I caught that Tim.
As for Wendy's rant in general, Hillary Clinton couldn't have said it better. I thought the whole thing had a liberal tone to it. And Bill was eating it up.
ktc2 | December 9, 2006, 3:45pm | #
Hitler's use of Christianity is obvious to anyone who has studied the period with an unbiased eye. One may argue whether he was simply "using" it and didn't believe, but the fact that he portrayed himself and his party as such is well documented.http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
Eddy | December 9, 2006, 3:48pm | #
And these are the people who objected to Hillary Clinton's borrowing of the African proverb "it takes a village to raise a child."They weren't sincere in their objection. The objection was based on Hillary not picking the proper church as the village.
TrickyVic | December 9, 2006, 3:49pm | #
""Since when is the word "ass" considered bleepworthy anyway?""They probably did it for effect. Oh no, that little girl said a bleep word. How horrible. They must be bad parents.
Personally, I thought it was cute. The moral of her story is that man's inhumanity against man has been around a long, long time.
It does have a cheap shot at Republicans which is false. No party has a monopoly on death and destruction. More people died when FDR was Commander in Chief than Bush.
I think many people focus on the religion or political statements therefore missing the point.
Eddy | December 9, 2006, 3:51pm | #
Apparently the real crime is that it will inspire a religious nut to hunt down and kill the child.Does anybody else think Bill or Wendy already has people looking for this kid?
Jonathan C. Hohensee | December 9, 2006, 4:25pm | #
They probably did it for effect. Oh no, that little girl said a bleep word. How horrible. They must be bad parents.and, if I remember right, its double-bleeped to make it seem like she said "asshole."
mk | December 9, 2006, 4:38pm | #
Actually, only about a third of homeschoolers do so for religious reasonsI'll buy that. John Stuart Mill, for instance, was home-schooled. I wouldn't want my child to have to go through what he went through, but there is no arguing with success.
If that girl is 7 or 8 as they say, she speaks fairly well for her age. Kids who are being egregiously abused aren't anywhere near that aggressively outgoing usually. Also, any indoctrination she may receive as a child won't necessarily transfer into adulthood. How many stuffed-shirts have you met who were born in hippie communes? Being in my late thirties, I have met quite a few.
Jonathan C. Hohensee | December 9, 2006, 4:46pm | #
If that girl is 7 or 8 as they say, she speaks fairly well for her age.I agree with you mostly (anyone that adorable should end up alright), although I highly doubt she understands most of what she was saying. If I remember right, when I was eight I was under the assumption that a "liberal" was anyone who disagreed with you. (Apparently I was a Dittohead as a kid)
I'm at work where my PC has no sound, yet even without hearing a single word I can tell O'Reilly is spewing a load of bullshit. How can I tell? His lips are moving...
Again | December 9, 2006, 4:59pm | #
"As a parent, I am entitled, neigh, legally obligated, to brainwash another human being. This is what I am teaching my child...the fucking truth."As you see it. Anyone who claims to have complete and total recognition of "the truth" is almost certainly lying.
As for the kid, do we really have such a shortage of political warfare out there that we have to start drafting 7 year olds to heave invective at our "enemies?" Don't blowhards like O'Reilly act enough like 7 year olds that we don't really need the genuine article?
Let kids be kids and leave them out of our twisted little left/right, atehist/christian morality plays.
Child abuse? No. Being an asshole to a kid? Pretty clearly, yes.
CMN | December 9, 2006, 5:06pm | #
The kids an actor.OFFICIAL STATEMENT: THIS VIDEO FEATURES A TALENTED YOUNG ACTRESS PLAYING A FICTITIOUS CHARACTER. IT IS A COMMERCIAL FOR THE BAND 'THE BASTARD FAIRIES' AND DIRECTED BY AN AWARD WINNING DOCUMENTARY FILM MAKING TEAM
biologist | December 9, 2006, 5:06pm | #
"Apparently the real crime is that it will inspire a religious nut to hunt down and kill the child."good point, O'Reilly & co don't even see the disconnect that ofttimes it is THEIR VIEWERS that contain the violent nutjobs that threaten harm. remember when Sami Al-Arian (Palestinian advocate) appeared on the O'Reilly Factor not long after 9/11, and then began receiving death threats at his job at University of South Florida?
Jonathan C. Hohensee | December 9, 2006, 5:18pm | #
OFFICIAL STATEMENT: THIS VIDEO FEATURES A TALENTED YOUNG ACTRESS PLAYING A FICTITIOUS CHARACTER. IT IS A COMMERCIAL FOR THE BAND 'THE BASTARD FAIRIES' AND DIRECTED BY AN AWARD WINNING DOCUMENTARY FILM MAKING TEAMI hope O'Reily makes a note of that on his show, at least.
wellfellow | December 9, 2006, 5:22pm | #
Oy! Their music kinda blows.wellfellow | December 9, 2006, 5:25pm | #
"THIS VIDEO FEATURES A TALENTED YOUNG ACTRESS PLAYING A FICTITIOUS CHARACTER."I don't really get that. What the hell else would she be? Does anyone really think she came up with that on her own?
wellfellow | December 9, 2006, 5:28pm | #
"I hope O'Reily makes a note of that on his show, at least."LOL, yeah, people might think she's not an actress. (??)
Also, I didn't think Bill O'rielly was that out of control, at least not with that loon, The Expert, next to him.
Mad Max | December 9, 2006, 5:30pm | #
Speaking as someone who doesn't particularly like Bill O'Reilly, I object to posters here implying that he is a "fundamentalist." Although there are some H&R people who think that any acknowledge of Gid is inherently "fundamentalist," most people use the term to describe hard-core followers of one of the major religions. By this standard, O'Reilly doesn't qualify.In his book *The O'Reilly Factor,* O'Reilly denounces people he calls "fundamentalists," by which term he appears to mean those who take seriously the core teachings of their respective faiths. While calling himself a Catholic, O'Reilly shows that he clearly belongs among the ranks of the theological liberals:
“It doesn’t matter what you believe-as long as you believe in *something*” (p. 183).
“If you try to be kind, responsible, and honest, good things will likely happen to you-both on this earth and in the hereafter, wherever it is” (p. 166).
I really hate to challenge anyone's stereotypes here.
correction: "Although there are some H&R people who think that any acknowledgment of God is inherently 'fundamentalist,'"
Godfrey | December 9, 2006, 5:56pm | #
Fuck you all.Nearly every good point that popped into my head turned out to have already been elucidated by someone else. You selfish, pretentious bastards.
Honorable Mentions to: Aaron Powell, thoreau, eximer, Max Max and jms, whose very valid point could have been better articulated; if you're bashing the religious indoctrination of children, funnelling your own rant through a child scores automatic irony points.
And the award for Most Insightful Post goes to Tim Cavanaugh. Tim; ever think of quitting your day job and working for Reason full time?
Pedantic Liberal-Arts Major | December 9, 2006, 6:07pm | #
As a parent, I am entitled, neigh, legally obligated, to brainwash another human being.Nay=A word used to introduce correction.
Neigh=The sound a horsey makes.
Thank you for the correction Pedantic Liberal-Arts Major. Sorry for the homonym.
just sayin | December 9, 2006, 7:15pm | #
Anybody still reading? The kid's point (or the writer for the kid's point) wasn't that the Nazis were a religion, it was that they were a gang - the line was something like "there have been gangs for centuries that have done worse things - like the KKK and the Nazis." The religion part was a separate argument.vaskeli | December 9, 2006, 7:28pm | #
This is gold. Neither O'Reilly, his guest, or any of his staff bother to "research" the video to the extent of reading the message next to it explaining that the girl's an actress and the video is an ad before they go on air, screeching about "indoctrination" and child abuse.vaskeli | December 9, 2006, 7:59pm | #
For actual video of an indoctrinated child, O'Reilly might want to check out this "Atlas Shrugs" vlog. It begins as a pretty standard rant, but at about the 5:00 mark, there's a non-sequitur with "Atlas"'s daughter that couldn't be more pertinent. Of course, the vlogger is a friend of the right (she interviewed John Bolton during the Israel-Lebanon war a few months ago), so I doubt O'Reilly will be calling this child abuse.Matt J | December 9, 2006, 8:00pm | #
That was totally out of line.That kid's parents should be arrested.
I'm going to go listen to my Prussian Blue album now.
http://www.prussianbluestore.com/
Ken Shultz | December 9, 2006, 8:22pm | #
Rick Barton,"BTW, in common parlance are little kids still referred to as "widgets".
Only if they're working in one of my factories.
Guy Montag | December 9, 2006, 8:31pm | #
Actually, I chose to keep the village away from my child when I was able to and he turned out quite well.Check the babblings of the "writer/reasearches" at TNR for the way the village babies turn out.
Baba O'Reilly | December 9, 2006, 8:41pm | #
My 8-year-old daughter had this to say;"Daddy, why do so many grownups think kids are stupid? What's wrong with them?"
Dennis | December 9, 2006, 8:49pm | #
"that is the ultimate inhumane treatment of a child"Whew! I feel SO much better now about what I did last night after drinking all that grain alcohol...
(I'm kidding, I'm kidding!)
Gerry Tripwell | December 9, 2006, 8:52pm | #
For actual video of an indoctrinated child, O'Reilly might want to check out this "Atlas Shrugs" vlog. It begins as a pretty standard rant, but at about the 5:00 mark, there's a non-sequitur with "Atlas"'s daughter that couldn't be more pertinent. Of course, the vlogger is a friend of the right (she interviewed John Bolton during the Israel-Lebanon war a few months ago), so I doubt O'Reilly will be calling this child abuse.I disagree with everything she said.....but she is pretty hot!
Aresen | December 9, 2006, 8:53pm | #
Late to the post.Just a twist on the "child abuse" theme.
If this is "child abuse", then so are the following movies: "Paper Moon", "The Wizard of Oz", "Look Who's Talking", "The Black Stallion", every early Shirley Temple movie, all the 'Little Rascals' movies, "Little Orphan Annie", etc.
Guy Montag | December 9, 2006, 9:01pm | #
Aresen,Um, I believe that the grown Tatum O'Neil is evidence enough that "Paper Moon" was, in fact, child abuse.
Guy Montag | December 9, 2006, 9:03pm | #
Also, Shirley Temple-Black turned out quite well and I do not see the link.Of course, as I have pointed out before, I came over from /. and never read the articles. Tridition is important.
James Kabala | December 9, 2006, 9:04pm | #
The stupidest part is for O'Reilly to blame this on twenty-first century technology and portray it as an evil effect of the Internet, as if there haven't been movies, television shows, and even (if we want to show something completely technology-free) plays that had propagandistic content and used child actors.Garrett | December 9, 2006, 9:13pm | #
Since when do children NOT have their own opinions. And, she understands nothing?Give me a break. What a bunch of asshats.
Mad Max | December 9, 2006, 9:20pm | #
"Hitler's use of Christianity is obvious to anyone who has studied the period with an unbiased eye. One may argue whether he was simply 'using' it and didn't believe, but the fact that he portrayed himself and his party as such is well documented."What's the relevance. Perhaps if Hitler was given to truth-telling, we could credit his public statements. But he isn't and we shouldn't. Why should his public statements about Christianity be given any more credence than his public statement that he had no further territorial designs in Europe beyond the Sudetenland?
(In other words, whether Hitler meant it *is* a relevant consideration.)
David McElroy | December 9, 2006, 9:22pm | #
It's hard to take sides in this particular fight. I don't think I'd like the folks on either side of the debate. O'Reilly is an arrogant idiot. The people who made the video are a different brand of idiot. It's like if the Klan and the Communist Party rumble. You'd like them all to die. :-)Aresen | December 9, 2006, 9:39pm | #
Guy MMy point was that, if the test of "child abuse" is giving a kid some lines - whether or not she understands the lines - then every movie that has ever featured a kid is "child abuse" by that test.
That being said, the statements the kid was spouting were about the right level for an eight-year-old. So were O'Reilly's.
Godfrey | December 9, 2006, 9:44pm | #
Mad Max "Why should his public statements about Christianity be given any more credence than his public statement that he had no further territorial designs in Europe beyond the Sudetenland?"The fact that Hitler found it necessary or advantageous to use religion as a tool is what's important here. It shows that the mindset of at least some of his followers was probably religious (or at least that he thought so). The relevance of that fact to this conversation is negligible but it is nonetheless an important point: I often hear religious apologists calling the Holocaust an "athiest pogrom" when it fact it was anything but.
In fact all such movements have a "religious" undertone to them in a way, inspiring a willingness among followers to abrogate critical thought and personal responsibility in favor of a group ethic. Nazism, communism and religion are very similar in this way. And they have similar track records.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities". - Voltaire
James Bascle | December 9, 2006, 9:46pm | #
yeah it is such a bad thing when the atheist "heathens" use children for their purposes and tell them about their world view. but when Christians and other religion groups indoctrinate and brainwash their children into becoming religious zealots, they are doing far more harm to their kids than these people.I'm still learning how to spell big words like "atheist". Be patient with me.
TH | December 9, 2006, 10:01pm | #
I like how O'Reilly doesn't bother to mention or show the part of the video where it insults him. I wonder if that had anything to do with his interest in it...And that whole bit about church being less important than Family Guy and South Park seems like a pretty clear indication that this wasn't intended seriously.
Mad Max | December 9, 2006, 10:07pm | #
Godfrey,How are we defining religion? I'll start with what it says in my Black's law dictionary:
"A system of faith and worship usu. involving belief in a supreme being and usu. containing a moral or ethical code; esp. such a system recognized and practiced by a particular church, sect or denomination . . . [In 1st Amendment cases] courts have interpreted the term *religion* quite broadly to include a wide variety of theistic and nontheistic beliefs."
Alternative definitions (based on the remarks of O'Reilly and the H&R commenters) would include:
(2) Any belief system which has a more or less supportive attitude toward traditional American morality (O'Reilly seems to adopt this definition, and some H&R posters seem to accept the definition, to which of course they apply a negative connotation because traditional morality is so horribly oppressive)
(1) Any belief system which involves some kind of God or gods, making the belief system inherently irrational.
(3) Any belief system different from mine (*my* belief system represents rationality, which is of course the complete antithesis of religion)
In which sense, then, are the National Socialists (or their duped followers) in the same religious category as Christians?
(Also, an acceptable H&R definition of religion must (a) include both National Socialism and Christianity while (b) *excluding* libertarianism and atheism)
Guy Montag | December 9, 2006, 10:29pm | #
Max,I thought the National Socialists (all that I can name) replaced religion with stateism?
Have I missed an important H&R quirk?
Mad Max | December 9, 2006, 10:37pm | #
Guy,You've missed *my* quirk, which is that I'm making fun of some fellow-posters and their views on religion. Not very nice, I guess :(
martin | December 9, 2006, 10:47pm | #
Hotdam! A hot thread and I'm late at discovering it! Y'all can't go without my $ 0.10. so here goes:First to Hitler using chrisitianity. How, when? No evidence I know of. He hated and harrassed the two churches relentlessly. Complained about peoples' stupid religious sentiments on several occasions. Just for examples. And he never potrayed himself as Christian.
To the child abuse expert and others like her, she's the one that should have to worry about being hunted down. If this vid is child abuse then what the hell does she call what's happening to so many kids in Iraq, for example? Not a peep out of these assholes on that. What a bunch of jerks. Unfortunately they are not alone and they have a lot of clout.
Good point on that anti-abortion demo with the gory signs. Talk about using kids. Any bets on the chances of a federal bill making that kind of thing child abuse? Not that I think such a bill is a good idea.
Whoever said it is right: It's not what the adults ask the kids to do, it's that douchebags like O'Reilly and that Murphy woman disagree with it.
martin | December 9, 2006, 11:08pm | #
Come to think of it, that girl is pretty sharp. Either1) she's memorised the whole thing, in which case my hat is off to her and she's better than I ever was or will be or
2) she's reading it off, in which case she has darn good reading skills and is almost as good as I was at that age. ;)
Guy Montag | December 9, 2006, 11:18pm | #
Mad Max,Ah, very cool. BTW, you can use my conversations with myself whenever you like so long as you mention ACCURATLY what I was drinking.
Again | December 9, 2006, 11:22pm | #
"Daddy, why do so many grownups think kids are stupid?"Because they are. Hell, I was still a blithering moron at 19, much less 8.
George Tenet Fangirl | December 9, 2006, 11:28pm | #
Pay closer attention to the video. It cuts to a different view every couple of seconds. Odds are they did the entire thing in at least a couple hundred takes over the course of several hours (or multiple days) then took the best performances and spliced them all together. At most she memorized / read one sentence or so at a time. Still, impressive for a kid. (Then again, she could easily be a very young-looking teenager...)Shem | December 9, 2006, 11:47pm | #
"Why should his public statements about Christianity be given any more credence than his public statement that he had no further territorial designs in Europe beyond the Sudetenland?"Because his remarks were part of a long tradition of anti-Semitism in the Church, reaching back to Martin Luther. In fact, many of Hitler's justifications for action against the Jews were heavily influenced by Luther's writings. By making the statements that he did, Hitler was attempting to create a connection in the minds of the German people, thereby beginning the shift of their loyalty from Christianity to the sort of Pseudo-Pagan religion of the Nazi party. Yes religion. In no sense was the Nazi party atheist.
First to Hitler using chrisitianity. How, when? No evidence I know of. He hated and harrassed the two churches relentlessly. Complained about peoples' stupid religious sentiments on several occasions. Just for examples. And he never potrayed himself as Christian.
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
--Adolph Hitler, April 1922
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
--Mein Kampf
Aerik Knapp-Loomis | December 10, 2006, 12:05am | #
There difference between the 8 year old girl bashing Bill O'Reilly and when evangelicals indoctrinate their children is simply this: that 8 year old girl knows she's playing a part, regardless of whether or not her words happen to be true. I really love this speech to Amnesty International by Nicholas Humphrey.In learning science we learn why we should believe this or that. Science doesn't cajole, it doesn't dictate, it lays out the factual and theoretical arguments as to why something is so -- and invites us to assent to them, to see it for ourselves. Hence, by the time someone has understood a scientific explanation they have in an important sense already chosen it as theirs.* * *
How different is the case of religious or superstitious explanation. Religion makes no pretence of engaging its devotees in any process of rational discovery or choice. If we dare ask why we should believe something, the answer will be because it has been written in the Book, because this is our tradition, because it was good enough for Moses, because you'll go to heaven that way ... Or, as often as not, don't ask.
But the grounds I'm proposing are firmer. Some of the other speakers in this lecture series will have talked about the values and virtues of science. And I am sure they too, in their own terms, will have attempted to explain why science is different -- why it ought to have a unique claim on our heads and on our hearts. But I will now perhaps go even further than they would. I think science stands apart from and superior to all other systems for the reason that it alone of all the systems in contention meets the criterion I laid out above: namely, that it represents a set of beliefs that any reasonable person would, if given the chance, choose for himself.
moctopouse | December 10, 2006, 12:24am | #
For years, I stood by my parents at church mouthing lines about Pontius Pilate or the Nicene Creed, never understanding exactly what the former (I thought he was a pilot for a number of years) or the latter were or a few other famous figures and ideas. And the thing is, I think my last physical fight was when I was about 8 years old. I hold a job, have friends, family, and romances, and basically lead a normal life. This 8 year old as well will probably just turn out to be a cool, or maybe obnoxious but basically harmless adult. Neither having a kid mouth off about religion or a kid mouth religious lines necessarily leads to anything at all. O'Reilly and his 'child expert' (let me guess, washed out Britney Spears dancer from about 10 years ago, reborn and dressed up for the cameras) should win some sort of 'biggest shark jump of the year' award.Thanks Shem. I was thinking too narrowly of the Hitler in power. In many respects not the same guy as the one of the years of the struggle.
Andy Dabydeen | December 10, 2006, 12:52am | #
Little Girl: 1 Bill O'Reilly: 0MarkV | December 10, 2006, 1:01am | #
Moctopouse:Don't feel bad about thinking Pontius Pilate was a pilot.
For years, while singing God Bless America in (public) grade school, I proudly sang out:
"Stand beside her, and guide her,
With the light by the light from a bulb."
No one ever corrected me.
It seemed to make perfect sense to me; after all, where else did light come from but from that great American invention, Edison's light bulb?
Mad Max | December 10, 2006, 1:26am | #
Shem,I've mentioned above how you can define "religion" as broadly as you like. The question remains, what *sort* of religion did the National Socialists promote? We can also discuss the Christians duped by the National Socialists, but there were also plenty of Christians duped by the Communists ("Liberation theology," "Jesus the socialist," etc.), and I hope no-one will suggest that Communism somehow represents the fulfillment of trad