Attack in Jerusalem

A Palestinian gunman open fired on a packed cafeteria at a Jerusalem seminary today, killing eight Israelis and wounding dozens more. It is the worst attack in Israel since April 17, 2006, when a suicide bomber killed six in Tel Aviv. Sketchy details from the Jerusalem Post:

Witnesses said that only one terrorist had entered the building and that he managed to fire 500-600 bullets over the course of 10 minutes before he was killed.

[...]

The incident occurred when at least one terrorist entered the Merkaz Harav Yeshiva in the neighborhood of Kiryat Moshe carrying weapons. The terrorist was not wearing a suicide-bomb belt as earlier reported.

The gunman entered a dining hall where about 80 people were gathered, witnesses said, and opened fire. "There are at least seven killed and 10 people wounded," said Eli Dein, director of Israel's rescue service.

A spokesman for PA President Mahmoud Abbas said he condemns the attacks, whatever that's worth: "President Mahmoud Abbas condemns the attack in Jerusalem that claimed the lives of many Israelis and he reiterated his condemnation of all attacks that target civilians, whether they are Palestinians or Israelis." CNN's Ben Wedeman, who was in Gaza when the news broke, reports that Hamas members took to the streets to celebrate the massacre. This is, unfortunately, something of a post-massacre tradition with Hamas.

Comments

Cesar | March 6, 2008, 4:38pm | #

I'm happy theres a whole shitload of water between me and that area of the world.

classwarrior | March 6, 2008, 4:38pm | #

For whatever it's worth, Israel will kill multiples of Palestinians in revenge attacks, will continue to enforce a genocidal blockade on Gaza, and continue to violate international law on an ongoing basis through land seizures, detentions without charges (including children), torture, and collective punishment. For what it's worth.

Cesar | March 6, 2008, 4:40pm | #

The bottom line is the cycle of violence and revenge has gone on so long there that its kind of hard to know who is the "victim" anymore.

R C Dean | March 6, 2008, 4:40pm | #

And, for what its worth, if the Palestinians would simply stop killing Israelis, I am sure the Israeli countermeasures would cease.

I am curious, though - what, exactly, is a "genocidal" blockade? Is that one that is lifted periodically to allow shipments of food, fuel, and medical supplies?

Abdul | March 6, 2008, 4:41pm | #

classwarrior,

So, you heading down to the Hamas post-massacre shindig too? pick me up some falafel if you do.

Adam | March 6, 2008, 4:42pm | #

R C Dean, you seriously think the Palestinians feel as if they're the aggressor here to stop?

Cesar | March 6, 2008, 4:43pm | #

I think the Roadrunner is the real victim, not Wile E. Coyote.

How dare you! Wile E. Coyote is just defending himself!

And on and on...if it wasn't for the fact the violence is real it would be like an episode of Loony Tunes.

Episiarch | March 6, 2008, 4:43pm | #

I know this probably makes me a bad person, but I just don't give a shit. I'm sick of all these assholes, and the fact we were dumb enough to get involved in their stupid race-and-religion conflict.

M. McMier | March 6, 2008, 4:47pm | #

Who wants to bet Dondero shows up on this thread?

thoreau | March 6, 2008, 4:49pm | #

I'm happy theres a whole shitload of water between me and that area of the world.

Nonetheless, it is imperative that we continue to take sides in every conflict in that part of the world. If we don't, they might come over here and try to make it our problem.

classwarrior | March 6, 2008, 4:50pm | #

Yes RC, if those pesky Palestinians would just let Israel have the best of the rest of their lands, and accept it's dominance over the Bantustans that would be left, "peace" would reign in the region. And if we did everything Al Qaeda demanded, we could all sleep easier at night as well.

Cesar | March 6, 2008, 4:51pm | #

I hope you're being sarcastic, thoreau.

But who do you think the real victim is here? Itchy, or Scratchy?

charlie | March 6, 2008, 4:53pm | #

You know, 125 Palestinians, dozens of them women and children, have been killed in less than two weeks by Israeli missiles, yet you'd be hard pressed to find any posts about that here on Reason.

I guess it isn't murder if you're "responding" to violence (chicken or the egg?) and you use multi-million dollar war toys -- paid for by the United States -- to commit it.

Episiarch | March 6, 2008, 4:57pm | #

Oh for fucks sake here come the partisans. We need somewhere where the "Israeli Apartheid" types and the "Israel can do no wrong" types can go head to head in a LGF-DU-WWE acronymatic smackdown cage match.

These arguments are so. fucking. tired.

kinnath | March 6, 2008, 4:58pm | #

Hatfield v. McCoy; round 236

Colin | March 6, 2008, 4:59pm | #

The difference here is that the Israelis target militants, who purposely shield themselves among civilians, while this attack was perpetrated on innocent students, with the intent of killing only innocent students.

thoreau | March 6, 2008, 4:59pm | #

Totally sarcastic, Cesar.

highnumber | March 6, 2008, 5:00pm | #

I've posited this here before, but this seems like a good time to put it out there again.

highnumber's plan for peace between the Israelis and Palestinians

by highnumber

Clear everybody out of there. Make it a giant religious theme park where no one can live and give everyone who had any sort of legitimate claim to the land a share of the profits. They'd all be so rich that they probably wouldn't mind living next door to each other in some wealthy suburbs of Dallas or Miami or wherever.

Cesar | March 6, 2008, 5:00pm | #

I find it odd that theres a post about the Israeli conflict--something occouring thousands of miles away across one ocean and another sea--but not one post about a war that could very well start in our on backyard (South America) at any moment? Just sayin'.

Colin | March 6, 2008, 5:01pm | #

And never do you see Israelis cheering the death of Palestinians -- whether they are innocent or not.

Pro Libertate | March 6, 2008, 5:02pm | #

I'd just be thrilled if we could withdraw from that part of the world, declare our neutrality, then buh-bye. We good even offer our good offices for negotiations, provided that we don't take sides. I say all this having some extra sympathy for the Israelis, as the most Westernized part of the puzzle. Kind of like the Kurds in "Kurdistan".

This doesn't mean no trade or interaction, it just means we don't officially care any more. We get 82% or more of our oil from elsewhere, so our obsession with being the arbiter of all things Middle East makes no sense. Obviously, if certain parties don't get the message, we retain the right to blow shit up until they do.

Cesar,

If you mean Venezuela vs. Colombia, Colombia will solve our Hugo "problem" very, very quickly if that happens.

edna | March 6, 2008, 5:03pm | #

cesar, scroll down, it's there.

Cesar | March 6, 2008, 5:04pm | #

If you mean Venezuela vs. Colombia, Colombia will solve our Hugo "problem" very, very quickly if that happens.

Yeah, from what I understand Colombia has a better military. But if Ecuador intervenes, it would balance it out (two front war). Now theres even talk about Peru taking Colombias side.

Cesar | March 6, 2008, 5:05pm | #

Of course if our credibility on the world stage hadn't been shot to shit we'd have a much better chance of solving that problem than the Middle East version of the Itchy and Scratchy Show.

Episiarch | March 6, 2008, 5:10pm | #

But if Ecuador intervenes, it would balance it out (two front war).

John McCain will be thrilled! More war to get involved in! We're not stretched too thin, we just need the draft back!

Cesar | March 6, 2008, 5:10pm | #

Epi-

Now, thats a war I could support. Because not only will our oil supply be threatened, but our cocaine supply as well. Can't have that.

Pro Libertate | March 6, 2008, 5:15pm | #

Cesar,

No worries--Teddy's back, biotch.

Malto Dextrin | March 6, 2008, 5:16pm | #

Hatfield v. McCoy; round 236

Except even the Hatfields and McCoys have made peace.

Daniel | March 6, 2008, 5:28pm | #

I'm sure that everyone here is going to be convinced by the other side's argument.

brotherben | March 6, 2008, 5:32pm | #

If the draft were reinstated, would the fat kids and stupid, uneducated poor kids get a pass in the modern, high tech military?

JW | March 6, 2008, 5:32pm | #

Man, that would be embarrassing, getting your ass kicked by Ecuador.

R C Dean | March 6, 2008, 5:35pm | #

R C Dean, you seriously think the Palestinians feel as if they're the aggressor here to stop?

I, for one, am not aware of any cease-fires that haven't been violated by the Palestinians, though. So if you equate "aggressor" with "the person who violates cease-fires", then, yeah, I would say that the Pals are the aggressors.

But sure, sure, the grievances, however ginned up they were initially, go right to the bone, and I'm sure the Pals feel like the victims, and are convinced its all the Jooo's fault, despite the role of the UN and their "fellow" Arabs in confining them to their ghetto.

Episiarch | March 6, 2008, 5:35pm | #

If the draft were reinstated, all fat kids would be first in line because boot camp would shape them right up. Therefore, the health nannies will support a draft.

Damn you McCain, it's genius!

J sub D | March 6, 2008, 5:38pm | #

You know, 125 Palestinians, dozens of them women and children, have been killed in less than two weeks by Israeli missiles, yet you'd be hard pressed to find any posts about that here on Reason.

Got any links to Israeli celebrations over the deaths of innocents?

J sub D | March 6, 2008, 5:38pm | #

Oh fiddlesticks - Colin beat me to it.

Tacos mmm... | March 6, 2008, 5:41pm | #

The difference here is that the Israelis target militants, who purposely shield themselves among civilians, while this attack was perpetrated on innocent students, with the intent of killing only innocent students.

Given the ages of the people likely involved and Israel's compulsive military service, all of the students were likely reservists. Does that make them civilians or soliders?

Tacos mmm... | March 6, 2008, 5:42pm | #

Got any links to Israeli celebrations over the deaths of innocents?

I get it. You can kill anyone you want, as long as you don't make a big fuss about it.

J sub D | March 6, 2008, 5:44pm | #

I get it. You can kill anyone you want, as long as you don't make a big fuss about it.

Intent matters to me. Celebrating the death of innocents does not speak well for the righteousness of one's cause. But you knew that.

J sub D | March 6, 2008, 5:50pm | #

I'm not really up to snuff on mid twentieth century middle eastern history. Did Egypt and Jordan plan to give Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinians?

edna | March 6, 2008, 5:52pm | #

Did Egypt and Jordan plan to give Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinians?

in fact, yes. just as soon as the bit in the middle was judenrein.

Tacos mmm... | March 6, 2008, 5:54pm | #

Intent matters to me. Celebrating the death of innocents does not speak well for the righteousness of one's cause. But you knew that.

Better to celebrate than to kill dispassionately. To paraphrase de Sade, to kill out of anger is understandable, human. To kill without feeling, monstrous.
More seriously, the position of the Palestinians in this conflict is such that you would expect them to be excited over any chance to strike back at their "opressors," while the Isrealis would have no real reason to welcome yet another round of this endless conflict.
Israel has nothing to gain, and everything to lose through conflict. The Palestinians have nothing left to lose, and the possibility to gain. It's not a surprise that each should view the fighting differently.

The Winter Soldier | March 6, 2008, 6:00pm | #

If ever an area of land deserved the expression, Kill 'em All . . .
this one does. I wish the U.S., and other nations, would just turn off the flow of $$$ to the region. Things would sort themselves out sooner, rather than later in that instance.

bigbigslacker | March 6, 2008, 6:01pm | #

"Palestine" sounds Jewish to me.

Aim & Squeeze | March 6, 2008, 6:12pm | #

500-600 rounds in 10 minutes is a poor cyclic rate for an assassin.

Also a very inefficient body count for that amount of ammo.

joe | March 6, 2008, 6:18pm | #

I like highnumber's plan.

They'd all be so rich that they probably wouldn't mind living next door to each other in some wealthy suburbs of Dallas or Miami or wherever.

Can't you just see two middle aged guys in tee-shirts with hair on their shoulders walking down their driveways, picking up their newspapers, shaking their fists at each other, and then both flipping to the business section as they walk back to the front door.

"Ahmed, you locked yourself out all morning? Why didn't you go to the Rosenbaums and get the key we gave them?"

"No! Never! I told you not to give them that key!"

Sigh. "All right, let's go inside."

J sub D | March 6, 2008, 6:21pm | #

The Palestinian people have been getting screwed for a long time. Not just since 1947.
The Palestinian people have been screwed by a lot of nations. Not just Israel. I feel for them.

The religious fanatics Hamas and the Kleptocrat PLO/Palestinian Authority do not appear to this outsider as rational choices of leadership.

joe | March 6, 2008, 6:23pm | #

Yeah, well, Abbas would have been worse.

Tbone | March 6, 2008, 6:26pm | #

Apparently no one in that cafeteria had a CCW.

I second Episiarch; can't muster up a give a crap anymore. While I hope the next administration is a more "honest" broker, I really don't think it matters. The Palestinians (rightly or wrongly) will have to be the first to back down for a sustained period, and RC Dean is right, they just won't.

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 6:30pm | #

That's the thing J sub D, when a people get screwed that long they don't always act rationally...It's a despicable attack. I agree with Abbas, all attacks that kill civilians are despicable. It's true that over a hundred folks, many of them children with nothing to do with launching rockets at Israel, have been slaughtered by the IDF without MM batting an eye, but how's complaining about that kind of thing gonna keep MM's pyacheck from conservative outlets coming?

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 6:34pm | #

Hamas is despicable, the kind of madmen only desperate people occupied, impoverished and denied self-government by an alien power for decades would turn to.

Davebo | March 6, 2008, 6:34pm | #

A spokesman for PA President Mahmoud Abbas said he condemns the attacks, whatever that's worth

In fairness it's more than we seem to get out of al-Maliki.

Inca Rhodes | March 6, 2008, 6:37pm | #

For the Palestinians, anything that looks like leadership generally gets killed or jailed early on. The last thing the Israeli's want is a Ghandi figure coming through the ranks. Better to preemptively jail or kill anyone that looks remotely like effective leadership. Don't forget to act bemused by the Pal's shocking lack of effective leadership, eh.

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 6:49pm | #

"Nor is the conflict in its essence an interracial conflict, arising from any old instinctive antipathy of Arabs towards Jews. There was little or no friction between Arab and Jew in the rest of the Arab world until the strife in Palestine engendered it...Quite obviously then, then, the problem of Palestine is political. It is, as elsewhere, the problem of insurgent nationalism. The only difference is that in Palestine Arab nationalism is inextricably interwoven with antagonism to the Jews. And the reason for that, it is worth repeating, is equally obvious. In the first place, the establishment of the National Home [for Jews] involved at the outset a blank negation of the rights implied in the principle of self government." Lord Peel's Palestine Royal Commission Report, 1937

J sub D | March 6, 2008, 7:08pm | #

In the first place, the establishment of the National Home [for Jews] involved at the outset a blank negation of the rights implied in the principle of self government." Lord Peel's Palestine Royal Commission Report, 1937

Israel has existed fo 60 years now. The statute of limitations has expired. Sorry 'bout that, Palistinians. Ask the Aztecs, Ojibwe, and Taino about how that works.

Reality is the Palestinians can get the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. They will never get anything other than that.
The right to return? Ain't gonna happen.
Reopening property claims in Israel? Ain't gonna happen.
Arab nations coming to your rescue, financially or militarily? Ain't gonna happen.

It sucks, but it is also reality.

Jonathan Hohensee | March 6, 2008, 7:15pm | #

I saw this one short film at an independent "global peace" film festival which featured a kid from Palestine sneaking around the wall and making friends with a Jewish kid. After the day was over for the two, they both went back home and to their parents who both hate the other side.

Watching the film, I got the feeling that the director was hoping that a Palestine and a Israeli watching the film would look down at the aisle at each other with a warm gaze in their eyes. Then they'd run up to each other and hug and forgive about 50 billion years of bad blood and drink a coke while singing "I'd like to buy the world a coke"

I think the Roadrunner is the real victim, not Wile E. Coyote.

How dare you! Wile E. Coyote is just defending himself!

And on and on...if it wasn't for the fact the violence is real it would be like an episode of Loony Tunes.
Which is which?

Eric Dondero | March 6, 2008, 7:23pm | #

I hate to say "I told you so", but I told you so. This is what you get when you have a foreign policy of appeasment and hand wringing. When will you people learn that islamofascists want to kill us all? It is not a religion of peace. I know ten to fifteen languages, and travelled the world as a military navy man, so I know about other cultures.

We need a real libertarian in the White House who knows that freedom means a strong defense! We need someone like McCain (please please oh please pick my babe Palin for VP) or Wayne Alan Root who will stand up to the foreign aggressors. We must occupy Palestine to stop this bloodshed! We must make war on Islam itself! We can never rest until every last moslim is dead! This is what Ron Paul and his sissy peaceniks will never understand.

joe | March 6, 2008, 7:27pm | #

If the majority of Palestinian people were living even as well as average Syrians or Egyptians, there would have a been a peace deal already. I don't think the maps and the right of return and the holy places are purely pretexts, but I think that the Palestinians are less willing to make reasonable accommodations because they're in a revolutionary mood. And that tends to happen when you've been herded behind barbed wire, and foreigners with rifles put their hands under your granny's chador whenever she crosses a checkpoint to go to the store.

joe | March 6, 2008, 7:29pm | #

It's certainly reasonable for the Israelis to think that such measures are necessary - a whole lotta Palestinians really are trying to kill them - but it's like taking heroin to quiet your cravings.

UCrawford | March 6, 2008, 7:36pm | #

Joe,

Actually the Palestinians' choice of leaders has contributed its fair share to their plight as well...Yassir Arafat's habitual theft from his own people to maintain his power did plenty to keep them impoverished.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200509/samuels

Granted, the formation of Israel was bullshit (backed, of course, by U.S./U.N. interventionism and thuggery) but I agree with J sub D that the statute of limitations has expired on giving the land back (just like it has for the Native Americans). I also believe that it's now an internal matter of the state of Israel and whatever goes on there is for the Palestinians and the Israelis to sort out on their own without our idiot Congress getting involved and taking sides:

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/107371.html

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 7:46pm | #

J sub D-You're right, it ain't gonna happen, mostly because Israel has fought and will fight it and we have and will support that. I understand that, but it strikes me as obvious that those affected are not going to be happy about it, in fact they may be angry to the point of madness about it...If someone from half a world away plopped down and claimed your neighborhood, and you and your family suddenly lost the right of self-determination, were militarily occupied and had your economy controlled, I doubt the passage of 60 years of that would make you or your kids say "oh well, it's a done deal, let's just enjoy it!"

UCrawford-An internal matter in which one side gets no say in the matter (thoe in the occupied territory are denied self determination)?

joe-"a whole lotta Palestinians really are trying to kill them" People are like that when foriegners occupy their land and boss them around...

I do think the anti-Israel forces adopt despicable tactics, no matter how correct their claims may be on many issues. It's morally corrupt and politically damning to target civilians so purposefully, and there is little doubt that is what they do often...

Leftist Jew Hater | March 6, 2008, 7:49pm | #

Boycott Caterpillar!

Lev Strauss | March 6, 2008, 7:56pm | #

Both sides are a bunch of lying bastards, meaning certain factions of the Israeli Government and the Arab Hustlers who still can play the Middle Ages due to the culture. I bet you a Saudi prince or Al Qaeda higher up could drink any Irishman under the table. These guys are lying crooks that use religion. We should have no dog in the fight, "those that cast their pearls among swine are destined to roll in the mud." If we really wanted to be Imperial Machiavellian Atheists we would want them to constantly be fighting, but we're better than that, even though our seemingly well meaning folly is counterproductive. What makes conflicts like these so global is the amount of money behind both well organized groups, money for weapons and PR.

Lev Strauss | March 6, 2008, 8:01pm | #

Of course I always like the comment I have seen from time to time, that if Israel was to become the fifty first state, they could stand to lose about 60 senators and just have two.

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 8:08pm | #

I honestly don't know any leftists that are jew-haters (at least not any white ones). Many leftists I know tend to be huge suckers for what they feel are under-dogs and the oppressed, and many feel the Palestinians, in their current conflict with Israel, fit that bill. Of course one tactic Israel fanatics have latched on to is to charge critics of Israel the nation, with a discernible set of policies one may approve of or not, with anti-Semitism or the hatred of "the Jews" in general. This kind of thing often achieves laughable results, as when prominent Jewish, and even Israeli Jewish, critics of Israeli policy get branded as "leftist anti-Semites."

The Wine Commonsewer | March 6, 2008, 8:09pm | #

People are like that when foriegners occupy their land and boss them around...

Furriners? I don't think so.

There have always been a significant number of Jews in what is now Israel. Didn't you go to Sunday School? Remember that part where the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians? And Moses parted the Red Sea? And the Jews went.....? Where? Back home to Palestine.

In 1945, Two years before the new state of Israel was created, Jews represented almost a third of the overall population of British Palestine.

The Brits and the UN diced up the Ottoman Empire and assigned arbitrary borders creating new, different, and realigned countries all over Europe & the ME. But it seems that the only time one hears the terms "illegal occupation" and "other people's land" is when "Israel" is also included in the sentence.

Bingo | March 6, 2008, 8:27pm | #

It's also in the best interest of various authoritarian regimes to keep the Israeli-Palestinian nonsense going. Being able to blame all manner of societal ills on THE JOOS is a nice distraction from the reality of the situation. If the shitheads in Israel and Palestine were to stop fighting and just live peacefully together, you might see some peaceful revolutions in other parts of the ME.

It's really disgusting how many people are leveraging the bloodshed to their advantage.

prolefeed | March 6, 2008, 8:29pm | #

The bottom line is the cycle of violence and revenge has gone on so long there that its kind of hard to know who is the "victim" anymore.

I'm pretty sure the people cleaning up the blood and guts from this attack have an incredibly precise conception of who were the victims here.

Lev Strauss | March 6, 2008, 8:37pm | #

Yeah the "victims" are those who buy the rhetoric and those who don't but are caught in the mess. Those who are not victims do not buy the rhetoric but go along with the program.

joe | March 6, 2008, 8:37pm | #

Actually the Palestinians' choice of leaders has contributed its fair share to their plight as well

I didn't realize Arafat was "chosen."

But, regardless, certain situations clear a path for reasonable, accommodating, decent, humane leaders...and others clear a path for Yassir Arafat. You don't see Yassir Arafat getting elected in Denmark.

I honestly don't know any leftists that are jew-haters Neither do the people who write things like that, MNG. They dishonestly "know" them.

This kind of thing often achieves laughable results, as when prominent Jewish, and even Israeli Jewish, critics of Israeli policy get branded as "leftist anti-Semites." Yeah, I remember that Cathy Young column, too.

There have always been a significant number of Jews in what is now Israel Oh my God. TWC, there have always been a significant number of Irishmen in Massachusetts. Do you think that would make any difference if the Irish Army conquered the place and made all the non-Irish live behind barbed wire?

But it seems that the only time one hears the terms "illegal occupation" and "other people's land" is when "Israel" is also included in the sentence. You think maybe that has something to do with the locals being given their own countries everywhere else, while they were kicked out of their homes and herded into the desert in Palestine?

joe | March 6, 2008, 8:39pm | #

I'm pretty sure the people cleaning up the blood and guts from this attack have an incredibly precise conception of who were the victims here.

And I'm pretty sure the people cleaning up the much larger amount of blood and guts after another round of air strikes in Gaza have a pretty precise conception, too.

That's kind of the problem; both sides think they're being victimized, and they're both right.

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 8:44pm | #

TWC-As I've argued before,and provided links to (check the past threads), the majority of the Jews living in "Israel" when it declared statehood were European born. So, yes, foriegners.

The Brits and the UN's borders were not totally arbitrary, they also were pressured by various nationalisms in the area. One of those was the Palestinian Arabs. One of the more bizarre ones was this group of European Jews who had not lived in the area for about 20 centuries...

I went to Sunday School a lot as a kid. I also went to college TWC, and learned that the Book wasn't exactly a trustworthy history book. I also learned about the dispersion of the Jews in the first century from their homeland.

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 8:49pm | #

"But it seems that the only time one hears the terms "illegal occupation" and "other people's land" is when "Israel" is also included in the sentence."

Are you just being dishonest or do you believe such nonsense? I guess our press does do a bad job of airing foriegn affair so it could be the latter. Many people refer to Israel's "illegal occupation" because it has been condemned (the parts that came from conquest) by the UN many times and is in contravention to international law as understood by most experts on that subject.

And I can't even count all the time I read about people claiming that someone is in possession of "other people's lands" and "illegal occupations." China-Tibet comes to mind. The Basques in Spain. The Irish-English. Heck, I even hear Congresspersons here throwing these terms around in relation to us in Iraq.

The Voices in Rick Barton's Head | March 6, 2008, 8:50pm | #

Does Hamas orchestrate world events such as the 9/11 attack and subsequent U.S. war in Iraq for its (Hamas's) benfit?

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 8:54pm | #

"By the time the State of Israel was proclaimed, the majority of Jews in the state and the region were Ashkenazi. Following the declaration of the state, a flood of Jewish migrants and refugees entered Israel from the Arab world and the Muslim world in general."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions#Israel.3B_The_Exiles_Ingathered

edna | March 6, 2008, 9:00pm | #

ok, so give the palestinian arabs all the arab/muslim land that the jews left. seems like a good deal, ain't no oil in palestine.

UCrawford | March 6, 2008, 9:05pm | #

Joe,

"That's kind of the problem; both sides think they're being victimized, and they're both right."

I agree completely...all the more reason for us not to get involved. We can't rectify the illegitimate gifting of Palestine to the Israelis without creating an equally unjust solution, nor can we take the Palestinians' side for using terror tactics against individuals who had very little to do with the creation of Israel. Israel's a recognized country, it's not our issue to solve (even if both sides would accept a solution dictated by outsiders), our involvement only serves to prolong to insulate one or both sides from the consequences of their actions (and focus blame on us) so it's best to let them resolve it. I have no doubt that such a solution would be bloody and ugly (and I suspect I know who would benefit the most) but ultimately it's the only way the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is going to come to an end.

thoreau | March 6, 2008, 9:12pm | #

So what I'm hearing here is that Palestinians bear collective guilt for dead Israeli civilians, but when Israelis kill Palestinian civilians it's either justified by Palestinian actions or is at worst the action of "a few bad apples."

My sympathies are with all of the innocents and none of the combatants.

joe | March 6, 2008, 9:21pm | #

I think we can hand-hold, UCrawford. Clinton and Mitchell and that Canadian general's hand-holding in Ireland seems to have helped things along.

The Wine Commonsewer | March 6, 2008, 9:22pm | #

Do you think that would make any difference if the Irish Army conquered the place and made all the non-Irish live behind barbed wire?

Yes, except there is no Israel Army except in Israel. And, apparently, you missed that part about the Brits carving up the former Ottoman empire and assigning borders. Sort of like when Ma established a border and told the Indians to pound salt.

The Ron Paul Political Report | March 6, 2008, 9:24pm | #

Now I don't know for sure whether Mossad did the first WTC bombing but I wouldn't be surprised. The Lobby, the Zionists who Occupy our Government in congress wish to use part of our hard earned tax dollars for their greedy wishes and disarms their opposition by comparing them to the extreme.

The Wine Commonsewer | March 6, 2008, 9:25pm | #

TWC-As I've argued before,and provided links to (check the past threads), the majority of the Jews living in "Israel" when it declared statehood were European born. So, yes, foriegners.

Except that it isn't accurate.

The Jewish population of Israel in 1945 was 565k and in 1948 was 650k, meaning that the mass exodus from Europe after the war was about 85k and that the overwhelming majority of Jews living in Israel in 1948 were already living there at the end of the war.

They didn't exactly migrate from Dachau in 1944.

Pro Libertate | March 6, 2008, 9:28pm | #

It was the economic boom, joe. Not politics.

Joe | March 6, 2008, 9:52pm | #

Reports out of the Phillipines that 3 Moslem terrorists were just arrested by Manilla police for plots to blow up the Embassies of Australia, UK and the United States.

The same day as a bombing in Times Square and the killings in Isreal.

Coordinated attacks?

Bingo | March 6, 2008, 9:55pm | #

Joe, didn't McVeigh and Nichols visit the Phillipines before the OKC bombings? Some reports had them meeting with officials of Saddam Hussein's government.

The Wine Commonsewer | March 6, 2008, 9:57pm | #

Are you just being dishonest or do you believe such nonsense?

Did I say anything about China or Tibet?

What I said was absolutely contextual to the UN & the Brits divvying up the Ottoman Empire. And you know it because you acknowledged it up thread when you said

The Brits and the UN's borders were not totally arbitrary, they also were pressured by various nationalisms in the area....

That has nothing to do with Tibet, Spain, Ireland, or anything other than what happened when Britain and the UN decided the political boundaries of the former Ottoman Empire.

Case in point is that nobody gives a rat's ass about the Armenian right of return (except the Armenians).

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 9:57pm | #

I know a lot of leftist liberals. I know how they think. I could see them pulling off that terrorist attack in NYC today. Heck, they'd probably end up blaming "anarchists" or "Ron Paul extremists."

J sub D | March 6, 2008, 10:01pm | #

The Israelis are to blame here. They have brought it on themselves. Hamas and other Palestinian groups seem to have a cause for their disenchantment. I'm not excusing these terrorist murders today. But I do think it's a good time for us to reflect upon the concerns of the Palestianians and their plight. Not just be kneejerk supporters of the Israelis.

Cesar | March 6, 2008, 10:03pm | #

Let the Arabs and Israelis have at it. It's none of our business. They are oceans away. Like Ron Paul says, we need to isolate America from those greatly troubled regions of the world. End the foreign aid, pull our troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan, downsize the military and save the taxpayers billions.

The Wine Commonsewer | March 6, 2008, 10:05pm | #

Not just be kneejerk supporters of the Israelis

Whatchyou say Willis?

As a Jew Lover and a libertarian I hereby call for:

An end to all US aid to the Middle East.

An end to US led Camp David Peace Accords.

An end to all foreign aid.

A complete withdrawal of US troops worldwide.

My only caution is that I think the US is a moderating force on Israel. I expect that if we walk away Israel will simply mop the floor with the PLO.

alan | March 6, 2008, 10:19pm | #

Sad, in some one's pathetic mind, this:

The Ron Paul Political Report | March 6, 2008, 9:24pm | #
Now I don't know for sure whether Mossad did the first WTC bombing but I wouldn't be surprised. The Lobby, the Zionists who Occupy our Government in congress wish to use part of our hard earned tax dollars for their greedy wishes and disarms their opposition by comparing them to the extreme.

came across as clever commentary. Neutrality means neutrality. Get it through your simple little skull.

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 10:22pm | #

"The Jewish population of Israel in 1945 was 565k and in 1948 was 650k, meaning that the mass exodus from Europe after the war was about 85k and that the overwhelming majority of Jews living in Israel in 1948 were already living there at the end of the war."

TWC-Are you being silly on purpose? Have you never heard of Zionism? The concerted moving of European Jews to Palestine did not start in 1944! It was going on decades before that. Heck, even edna seems to have given up challenging the fact that at the time of the declaration of statehood the majority of Jews in Palestine were Ashkenazi...

"Did I say anything about China or Tibet? "

Uhh, no, that was the point. You said:
"But it seems that the only time one hears the terms "illegal occupation" and "other people's land" is when "Israel" is also included in the sentence."

And I pointed to China/Tibet, Ireland/England, the Basques/Spain, US/Iraq, etc. to call bullshit on ya. Because people don't single out Israel's illegal occupation, they talk about a lot of them.

Mr. Nice Guy | March 6, 2008, 10:24pm | #

Of course that's not me at 9:57

pick up and read | March 6, 2008, 10:38pm | #

"And, for what its worth, if the Palestinians would simply stop killing Israelis, I am sure the Israeli countermeasures would cease."

According to the Bible, the Canaanites were minding their own business when one day the Israelites invaded their country and slaughtered every man, woman, child, and beast. So your theory that Jews only use violence as a 'countermeasure' is repudiated by their own 'sacred' scripture.

joe | March 6, 2008, 10:48pm | #

Really, MNG? That wasn't you?

That's strange, because I decided to start posting with a capital J, spelling Moslem like it was 1877, and writing paranoid conspiracy theories about how every bad thing that happened today being part of the Plot, man.

The Wine Commonsewer | March 6, 2008, 10:59pm | #

Nice, you are missing my meaning.

It did not elude me that you are calling BS. I disagree because I'm talking in narrow terms with respect to the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. And it's correct. Nobody sheds a tear for anyone except the Palestinians. And not too many tears there neither.

Now, we aren't going to agree on this, ever, and that's fine.

Of course that's not me....

So, I am actually arguing with Joe by proxy?

Sorry. And here I got all uppity because I thought you were calling me dishonest.

Rick Barton | March 6, 2008, 11:02pm | #

All comfort to the victims who are still living as well as the friends and families of all the victims of this attack.

What a tragedy. Just as it is when the Israeli government kills innocent Palestinians in the course of the maintenance of their thieving (increasingly so with the "fence"), and murderous occupation of Palestinian land.

What might we in the US do to help bring an end to this carnage? We should try to prevail upon our government to quit giving our tax money to the Israeli government to prosecute the occupation. Also, our government's financing of the Israeli government's occupation was the main motivation for the 9/11 attacks against us.

The Wine Commonsewer | March 6, 2008, 11:03pm | #

Wait a minute, WTF?

You DID call me dishonest. That was you. Whaddya mean that wasn't you, Mr Nice Guy?

Jesus Chyrsler.

The Wine Commonsewer | March 6, 2008, 11:05pm | #

Rick, I'm a Jew Lover, but I'll go you one better, let's pull the funding from the entire ME.

Also, our government's financing of the Israeli government's occupation was the main motivation for the 9/11 attacks against us.

See, I'm a Paultard, but I ain't buying.

The Johnny Appleseed of Crack | March 6, 2008, 11:11pm | #

The palestinians are muslim. That is 2 strikes against them to start with. Muslims blow up planes full of civilians, blow up buildings, and kill or threaten to kill cartoonists, filmmakers, authors, etc. who dare to criticize their religion. That is why so many people are unsympathetic to their plight.

The Wine Commonsewer | March 6, 2008, 11:15pm | #

I've been summoned to watch the Idol results show. And, it's wine thirty.

I'll leave you with this:

A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long time. She wanted to include him in a holiday season series on Chanukkah, Christmas and the Winter Festival and Family Gathering time.

So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there he was, walking slowly up to the holy site.

She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane and moving very Slowly, she approached him for an interview.

"Pardon me, sir, I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. What's your name?

"Morris Fishbien," he replied.

"Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?"

"For about 60 years."

"60 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"

"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims."

"I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop."

"I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible adults, and to love their fellow man."

"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"

"Like I'm talking to a fucking wall.

Good night all.

Rick Barton | March 6, 2008, 11:16pm | #

The Wine Commonsewer:

Rick, I'm a Jew Lover, but I'll go you one better, let's pull the funding from the entire ME.

Hear Hear! Or is it "Here Here!"?-Whatever, Right on!

See, I'm a Paultard, but I ain't buying.

"Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the man who conceived and directed the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, was motivated by his strong disagreement with American support for Israel, said the final report of the Sept. 11 commission."

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/news/nation/9222612.htm

Jonathan Hohensee | March 6, 2008, 11:21pm | #

http://www.indymedia.org/or/2008/03/902116.shtml

Rick Barton | March 6, 2008, 11:22pm | #

The palestinians are muslim.

Mostly, yes. But they have the 2nd highest Christian population of all the Arabic speaking mideast peoples. Lebanon is #1.

Ali | March 7, 2008, 12:07am | #

Sad. The whole thing is sad.

An_Arab | March 7, 2008, 12:14am | #

Gee, I dunno - if the zionist jews have a right to "come back" after 2000 years, then us Arabs have a right to come back after 50.

They bombed their way in?

We reserve the right to bomb them back out.

And hopefully we'll take the UN out while we're at it. One day, hopefully... not now for sure, because we're stupid, but one day we'll take our heads out of our asses and do some real damage.

The Voices in Rick Barton's Head | March 7, 2008, 1:45am | #

Israel is the root of all evil, thus sayest the Lord.

Loki | March 7, 2008, 2:12am | #

An_Arab said:

One day, hopefully... not now for sure, because we're stupid, but one day we'll take our heads out of our asses and do some real damage.

What, like fly some planes into buildings? Because, you know, that did such wonders for the Middle East.

fyodor | March 7, 2008, 2:34am | #

TWC-As I've argued before,and provided links to (check the past threads), the majority of the Jews living in "Israel" when it declared statehood were European born. So, yes, foriegners.

Just for the sake of objectivity (ha-ha, yeah, I know), why don't we call them "newcomers" (relatively).

VM | March 7, 2008, 8:33am | #

Rick Barton | March 6, 2008, 11:02pm | #
All comfort to the victims who are still living as well as the friends and families of all the victims of this attack.

What a tragedy.

well spake.

Condolences to the victims and the injured. On all sides of this senseless violence.

robc | March 7, 2008, 8:34am | #

If someone from half a world away plopped down and claimed your neighborhood, and you and your family suddenly lost the right of self-determination, were militarily occupied and had your economy controlled, I doubt the passage of 60 years of that would make you or your kids say "oh well, it's a done deal, let's just enjoy it!"

Israel could let the Palestinians have casinos. That seems to work pretty well.

Dee | March 7, 2008, 8:53am | #

I am sick of hearing it as well. Let them get it on once and for all and last one standing gets ownership of the religious wall everyone looks like they are wizzing against in Israel.

We will never create peace in that region why even bother. We couldn't crack Castro 90 miles away what makes us think we can change these fools.

Personally if I was Israel when they gathered tightly packed in the streets chanting about their latest slaughter. Take out a few gun ships and make some passes up and down the street. Sure it won't force peace but it would be a hell of a show and probably stop any future gatherings of the sort.

When you have all your enemies stuffed into one area chanting to your death what do you really have to lose?

JohnL | March 7, 2008, 9:04am | #

Looks like Reason is the new home of America Firsters and other anti-Semites. Sick and disgusting. Ayn Rand was right about most movement libertarians -- a pack of chuckleheads. Many of these comments have more in common with Liberty Lobby thinking than with libertarianism as I've known it. Who'll purge these brownshirts?

my name is Bill and I'm a headcase | March 7, 2008, 9:09am | #

Betcha Dee's an Arab running part of a false flag op where Israel is encouraged to do something truly horrible. Later, when the disastrous unintended consequences of such counterproductive activities are rolled out, he'll feign surprise.

Jake Boone | March 7, 2008, 9:13am | #

When you have all your enemies stuffed into one area chanting to your death what do you really have to lose?

Your humanity.

Al Federber | March 7, 2008, 9:24am | #

Israel was a bad idea.

edna | March 7, 2008, 9:26am | #

When you have all your enemies stuffed into one area chanting to your death what do you really have to lose?

i kinda felt the same way during my first divorce.

The Voices | March 7, 2008, 9:27am | #

HOLD THIS UP TO A MIRROR

YCARIPSNOC

LEASI

DLROW SREKNAB

SHHHHHH!

joe | March 7, 2008, 9:34am | #

The palestinians are muslim.

Suicide bombings were invented by a Palestinian atheist group, the PFLP.

The Voices Are Telling Me To Do Things | March 7, 2008, 9:58am | #

Ok, but it's ungrammatical and I don't know what "ISAEL" is.

Hell, when has that ever stopped me wanting to cheer on people using babies to blow up civilians?

Dave W. | March 7, 2008, 10:01am | #

Intent matters to me. Celebrating the death of innocents does not speak well for the righteousness of one's cause. But you knew that.

I kind of think the thing is that the Israelis celebrate more, but the media covers the celebrations less.

Ali | March 7, 2008, 10:17am | #

I think that the best solution (and most libertarian) to this mess is this:

Check the ownership of every property in Israel and Palestine. As long as an Israeli or a Palestinian can produce a legitimate proof of ownership that indicates a proper and legitimate exchange of land/property ownership, then that piece of land is one's own. So appeal to property rights.

Also libertarians believe in freedom of movement a free markets. Embargoes imposed on the West Bank and Gaza, and controlling the motion of Palestinians and, yes, Israelis violates the principle of freedom of movement and commerce.

Collectively punishing innocent people on *both* sides is not libertarian either.

If you think that the people on either side of the conflict are subhuman, or whatever, I very much doubt your libertarianism.

If you believe in anything less than that because this is a "special case", I very much doubt your standing up to your libertarian principles if you claim to be a libertarian.

Ali | March 7, 2008, 10:25am | #

Also missing from many discussions of the middle east is the total disregard of restrictions on free commerce, even in the friendlier West Bank.

R C Dean | March 7, 2008, 10:39am | #

The Israelis are to blame here. They have brought it on themselves.

I honestly cannot imagine any circumstances where any country could be said to have "brought on itself" the intentional machine-gunning of high school students.

Also libertarians believe in freedom of movement a free markets. Embargoes imposed on the West Bank and Gaza, and controlling the motion of Palestinians and, yes, Israelis violates the principle of freedom of movement and commerce.

Unfortunately, the state has obligations not only to preserve the rights of its citizens to free movement and free markets, but also their right to be free from attack. When "free movement" and "free markets" will result in mass killings, they can and should be restricted. The Israeli wall and embargo caused a marked increase in Israeli safety. The attack was notable in large part because it had been so long since such an attack occurred.

J sub D | March 7, 2008, 10:43am | #

I kind of think the thing is that the Israelis celebrate more, but the media covers the celebrations less.

Dave W. You've got the internet. Al Jazeera is not in danger of being censored here. Surely they have film of the throngs of Israelis celebrating childrens deaths on the streets of Tel Aviv.

Unless they are part of the MSM conspiracy as well. Maybe you should investigate and report back to us.

J sub D | March 7, 2008, 10:50am | #

Let's face reality. Justice is NOT going to be served in what was once known as the British Mandate of Palestine. The best that all concerened can hope for is to minimize the injustice, end the violence, and bury an ugly history. It has been done in other places, benefitting all sides in a dispute.

Or they can kill each other for another futile 60 years.

Israelis and Palestinians, it's your decision.

edna | March 7, 2008, 10:59am | #

Check the ownership of every property in Israel and Palestine.

yes, the international property registry is a logical place to look. they've got the star names, too.

sheesh, i expect better from you.

anon | March 7, 2008, 11:08am | #

To the likes of Mr. Moynihan, it is only a massacre when Israelis are killed. Israel killed more than 10 Palestinian kids a few days ago and barely a mention in reason.

The Expatriate | March 7, 2008, 11:09am | #

A 2006 study, published in the Journal of Conflict Resolution, shows that "[e]ven after controlling for numerous potentially confounding factors, they find that anti-Israel sentiment consistently predicts the probability that an individual is anti-Semitic, with the likelihood of measured anti-Semitism increasing with the extent of anti-Israel sentiment observed."

Even though the study was conducted in Europe, from what I see here, I believe it would hold equally true in America. If one looks at the statistics, of the critics of Israel in this thread, at least 50% of them are also Jew-hating bigots. Sorry, Mr. Nice Guy, but this is science.

Dave W. | March 7, 2008, 11:10am | #

Dave W. You've got the internet. Al Jazeera is not in danger of being censored here. Surely they have film of the throngs of Israelis celebrating childrens deaths on the streets of Tel Aviv.

First of all, Al Jazeera is not an effective counterbalance to the MSM crap you gorge yersef on, Subster. They don't have the capitalization and revenues to bring balance to an unbalanced media world.

Second, Al Jazeera does indeed tone its act down in an attempt to get wider distribution than it otherwise would. For example, they spent about a year while I was in Canada trying to get on the teevee there (they failed IIRC).

Third, I do not think an Arab film crew would be allowed to film in Tel Aviv.

Fourth, even if I did hunt down such links, people wouldn't look at them.

Fifth, even sticking with the Western media, you can find links to Israelis celebrating 9/11 on 9/11/01 in New Jersey. You can find links to the celebration of the 60th anniversary of the King David Hotel bombing. You can find a lot more, even without resorting to AJ, if you are willing to break out of your preconceived notions.

Sixth, Israelis probably do dance in the streets less. Kind of like white people smoke less crack than black people. Don't mean much, ultimately. Cultural disparity that means doesn't mean as much as is commonly read into it.

anon | March 7, 2008, 11:10am | #

"And, for what its worth, if the Palestinians would simply stop killing Israelis, I am sure the Israeli countermeasures would cease."

Yeah just like they stopped when they started immigrating in mass to Mandate Palestine.

thoreau | March 7, 2008, 11:18am | #

Israel could let the Palestinians have casinos. That seems to work pretty well.

Finally, a sensible solution!

The Wine Commonsewer | March 7, 2008, 11:20am | #

Ali, I read the story and I am suspect of the gentleman who is an accountant but he can't get a job so he farms and sells produce. He has sold enough produce that he has been burnt by an Israeli company that apparently went bankrupt owing him 300,000.00.

Anybody moving enough produce to generate that kind of accounts receivable isn't looking for a job in accounting.

And I got news for that guy. US law is no more helpful than Israeli law in collecting bad debts.

Can't get blood out of a turnip. He should know that, too, he's a farmer.

joe | March 7, 2008, 11:32am | #

Even though the study was conducted in Europe, from what I see here, I believe it would hold equally true in America. If one looks at the statistics, of the critics of Israel in this thread, at least 50% of them are also Jew-hating bigots. Sorry, Mr. Nice Guy, but this is science.

You BELIEVE it would hold equally ture in America, and that's SCIENCE?

The Expatriate | March 7, 2008, 11:50am | #

re: Thoreau and joe
>Israel could let the Palestinians have casinos. That seems to work pretty well.

>Finally, a sensible solution!

Actually, that might not work out so well for the Israelis as they are a victim of finanical success and the free market.

The following comments are not intended for the first 50%, who believe the JOOS are the source of all evil. You can take your "Posse Comitatus"-ass and get the fuck out of my party! As for the other 50%, who tend to support the Palestinians due to an ignorance of history, these comments are for you.

While there is ample archeological and textual evidence that Jewish communities have continuously existed places like Jerusalem, Jericho, Nablus, et al. from 70AD onward, the development of what is now known as Israel did not start until the 1870s. During this time Jewish settlers, both Ashkenaz and Sephard, joined their co-religonists in Turkish-occupied Judea and Samaria.

What is not well known is that at this time, Arab immigration begun, en masse, as well. These future "Palestinians" were attracted to settle due to as development by Jewish settlers raised economic conditions well above those of neigboring Arab countries. Ottoman efendi landlords in Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere sold, at inflated prices, unoccupied land to Jewish farmers. These farmers, in turn, employed both Jews and Arabs. The new Arab cum Palestinian immigrants also found jobs in government and infrastructure construction.

Thus, far from being aboriginal, Palestinians are actually a form of Arab "carpetbaggers" who came to cash in on Jewish-led economic development. If the Israelis hadn't been so successful in developing their economy, there would be no "Palestinian question".


P.S. Extra points goes to those who can find an Arab-language source that employs the phrase "al-Falastin" that dates from before the 1950's.

Dickin D'Ass | March 7, 2008, 12:00pm | #

I'm not Anti-Jew

But I do believe that since 1947 Israel has not had a second of peace.

Since 1983 (the Marine bombing in Lebenon) the US has not had a second of peach.


Yes, Israel lost many people during the ANTIFADA. But on 911, America LOST more civilians than Israel lost in 10 years of Antifada COMBINED!!!

It's time that America really ask themselves:

Are we really Israel's Friend?
Are we really Saudi Arabia's Friend?

It's hard to tell because America is NOT only the World Police...it's the Worlds Prostitue as well.


Remember, this whole JEWISH ONLY state is very UN-AMERICAN. We didn't like it in the SOUTH with the WHITE-ONLY water fountain. We didn't like it in SOUTH AFRICA with APARTHIED.

Also remember, 16 of the 19 hi-jackers in 911 were from SAUDI ARABIA.

Many of us in America can care less about a JEWISH STATE. Any many Americans (unlike the Bush/CHeney families) don't prosper from OIL or DEFENSE Spending. Yet many Americans are suffering.

joe | March 7, 2008, 12:06pm | #

Dear Expatriate,

Nobody cares about your blood-and-soil crap.

The Expatriate | March 7, 2008, 12:23pm | #

Re:Dickin D'Ass
Well, it's nice to see that you are not "anti-Jew", furthermore I agree with you that America shouldn't be the world's police/whore. One can look at a conflict outside one's borders and assert that one side of the conflict has a greater claim to being correct, without wanting to be involved in said conflict. I mean, I feel sympathetic to the plight of the Hmong tribes being hunted by the Laotian army, but I'm not about to strap on my bandolier and go Rambo.

However, I find it necessary to point out that Israel is far from being "Jewish only". If it were, why would it's offical languages be both Hebrew and Arabic? How do you explain the fact that Muslim Arabs sit as legislators in the Israeli parliment? What about the 20 percent of the population that identify as Druze, Bedouin, or Arab? What about the ~3,000 Circassians, Muslim refugees from the Caucasus who fled Russian aggression [and found sanctuary in Israel]?

Many, many people are ignorant of the history and ideologies of the region, and certain factions of the Arab world have taken advantage of this ignorance to play both Europe and North America like a harp from hell.

As for the connection between Israel and Saudi Arabia, I have no clue what you are going on about.

The Expatriate | March 7, 2008, 12:26pm | #

Dear joe,

Nobody cares about your consistent confusion between ad hominem attacks and wit.

Dickin D'Ass | March 7, 2008, 12:46pm | #

The Expatriate |

Israel is in the HEART of the Jews People.

It's not s stupid dessert amongst a bunch of pre-historic savagages.

I'ven been 2 Israel (back in 1988). Anyone who not Jewish is not particularly welcomed...I can tell by the way i was treated in the airport.

Israel is a cosmopolitan state, that's the problem they're having. Many many israelis speak of deporting all of the arabs (including those sitting on the Knesset).

Israel will actualize peace once it treats the arabs right...and that's not goin 2 happen. Simply b-cause the arabs are a bunch of savages.

Israel stole the land from those savages...and those savages are fighting back. I would love to see the civilized Israelis just give up their 'holy-land'...and move to New Jersey...We're they will be welcomed.

joe | March 7, 2008, 12:58pm | #

OK, genius, I'll make it easier for you:

It is very unlikely that anyone reading this will find your argument - Jewish people have lived there, therefore Jewish people from elsewhere have the right to move there and push others off their land - remotely compelling.

This is not a very collectivist audience, particularly when your collectivist appeal is based on racial or ethnic identity.

Dickin D'Ass | March 7, 2008, 1:01pm | #

Hey Joe, I'm Puerto Rican. Can I move back to Spain?

Dickin D'Ass | March 7, 2008, 1:03pm | #

To the likes of Mr. Moynihan, it is only a massacre when Israelis are killed. Israel killed more than 10 Palestinian kids a few days ago and barely a mention in reason.

This is very very true.

My friend called me 2-day...and broke the news to me about the Israeli Massacre. 2 me, that's like saying it's raining in Seattle when either a bunch of Israelis or a bunch of Arabs are killed by the opposite group.

J sub D | March 7, 2008, 1:07pm | #

Translating the Dave W. | March 7, 2008, 11:10am post -

I have no evidence of public Israeli celebrations of the deaths of innocents. I was talking out of my ass in my 10:01am post. I won't admit it though.

Dickin D'Ass | March 7, 2008, 1:10pm | #

Hey J sub D,

The following site:

http://www.masada2000.org/cancerwithin.html

Talks about Meir Kahane...and his sympathies toward the arab dead.

J sub D | March 7, 2008, 1:21pm | #

Talks about Meir Kahane...and his sympathies toward the arab dead.

He's an asshole bigot who can put pen to paper. Not a street celebration by any means. Asshole bigots come in all nationalities and religions. I knew that.

zach | March 7, 2008, 1:24pm | #

Check the ownership of every property in Israel and Palestine. As long as an Israeli or a Palestinian can produce a legitimate proof of ownership that indicates a proper and legitimate exchange of land/property ownership, then that piece of land is one's own. So appeal to property rights.

Sorry, I just had to thank the author of that post for providing me with a much-needed laugh in the middle of an otherwise depressing thread.

::back to lurking::

alan | March 7, 2008, 1:30pm | #

JohnL, you sweet talker, you. Now how do you plan to rob my wallet with that sort of attitude?

Looks like Reason is the new home of America Firsters and other anti-Semites.

What you keep forgetting, America is First, and if you had any sense in your head, what is truly in America's interest, peace and prosperity, would be the only thing you would really give a damn about. Getting involved in the conflicts of others, however, is what gives you vainglorious decadent louts a warm tingly sensation in your bum holes.

ther anti-Semites.

Baseless charge! Some of my best friends know Jews.

I once chuckled while passing by a television set in an appliance store while Seinfeld was on.

So the idea that I am Anti-Semite as you can see by this anecdotal evidence is ridiculous.

Dickin D'Ass | March 7, 2008, 1:31pm | #

Hey zach,

Do u know how many Arabs have show deeds (written in arabic, of course) to prove property rights?

The Jews look @ these deeds and say "what is that thing? I can't read that. It's not in Hebrew."

The Expatriate | March 7, 2008, 1:36pm | #

re: joe
You said "It is very unlikely that anyone reading this will find your argument - Jewish people have lived there, therefore Jewish people from elsewhere have the right to move there and push others off their land - remotely compelling."

From my posts, if that is what you think I am arguing, then you obviously possess the intellect of a Down's Syndrome-mongoloid McDonald's janitor. (How's that for an ad hominem?)

alan | March 7, 2008, 1:38pm | #

Down's Syndrome-mongoloid McDonald's janitor. (How's that for an ad hominem?)

Not much.

J sub D | March 7, 2008, 1:45pm | #

Dickin D'Ass

How about I just call you Dick?
Celebrating the death of innocents does not speak well for the righteousness of one's cause.
Agree or disagree?
Reality is the Palestinians can get the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. They will never get anything other than that.
The right to return? Ain't gonna happen.
Reopening property claims in Israel? Ain't gonna happen.
Arab nations coming to your rescue, financially or militarily? Ain't gonna happen.
Agree or Disagree?
The best that all concerened can hope for is to minimize the injustice, end the violence, and bury an ugly history. It has been done in other places, benefitting all sides in a dispute.

Or they can kill each other for another futile 60 years.
Agree or Disagree?

Dickin D'Ass | March 7, 2008, 1:53pm | #

Hi J sub D
Agree
Agree
Agree
Agree

Dave W. | March 7, 2008, 1:54pm | #

Not a street celebration by any means.

why the pre-occupation with "street celebrations" and "public celebrations"?

I mean, I understand that you got a taste of the military subsidy money, and it turned your mind to mush when it comes to Israel. How would you de-program someone like you?

Sean Healy | March 7, 2008, 2:00pm | #

Everybody go look up Ma'alot. The Palestinians have form for this kind of savagery. Everybody offering alibis for the butcher in Jerusalem the other night should go look up the difference between "context" and "pretext".

The Jews are the only people in this disputed land who can claim uninterrupted habitation in some form going back thousands of years. Weirdly, this is held against them, as if there were some statute of limitations on national continuity.

What I'd really like is some constructive criticism around here. What should Israel do to stop Hamas - which pledges to destroy Israel - from firing hundreds of rockets at civilian population centers, since they're condemned for launching military strikes on the places from which the attacks emanate? They've tried leaving the territory already. They didn't stop anyone going over the border to Egypt. Apart from lying down and dying, what should the Israelis actually do?

J sub D | March 7, 2008, 2:11pm | #

Hi J sub D
Agree
Agree
Agree
Agree

Another pissing contest sucsessfully resolved.
☮♡ & ___________.

How I found that site is a loooong story.

Geotpf | March 7, 2008, 2:47pm | #

There's a simple solution to the Israel/Palestine problem.

Israel needs to set a firm border between Israel and not-Israel. I don't give a shit where it is, providing it's not gerrymandered like a Texas congressional district. The only caveat is that everybody living on the Israeli side of said border automatically becomes an Israeli citizen, able to vote in elections for the Israeli parliament (so it can't go much further than the 1967 borders, or there would be more Muslims than Jews in Israel and the Muslims will just vote the Jews out at the ballot box). Then Israel withdrawals completely from not-Israel and gives up ALL claims (airspace, mineral rights, everything) to not-Israel, and builds a huge honking wall on the line.

Problem solved. Sure, there will be a few extremists who won't be happy, but this is a compromise that most Palenstians, Israelis, and the world at large (even many Muslim nations would begrudingly support this) can accept, so the support for said extremists would be minimal.

One of the great things about this is that the Israelis can do this all on their own-nobody from Gaza or the West Bank has to be involved at all.

And since that's the case, America could force Israel's hand here. They could order them to follow said plan, or they withdrawal all military and non-military aid to Israel, AND, abstain from any UN vote involving Israel. Without the US's support, Israel would be overrun quickly. Terrorists and other arab governments would attack, and the UN would initiate a blockcade against the country, amoung other things.

Israel needs to accept that the United States' support is the only reason the state of Israel still exists. As such, they should obey our commands, not the other way around.

Dickin D'Ass | March 7, 2008, 2:51pm | #

Sean Healy,

Israelis should move here....to New Jersey...we're they would be welcomed.

Israel is in the HEART of the Jewish People.

This goin back to ancient Israel is just not work'n out 4 the Jews.

A bunch of Jews standing around saying that 'Israel is for the Jewish People b-cause God said so' is RUDE...and a violation of the Second Commandment (Thou shalt not take the name of the lord ur God in vein).

Dickin D'Ass | March 7, 2008, 3:00pm | #

Hey Geotpf ,

I wish it was that easy.

The only way the ALL-JEWISH STATE of Israel can exist in peace is if they hold a Full-Service holocaust of All Arabs inside and outside of Israel

Ali | March 7, 2008, 3:16pm | #

TWC-

May be that was a poor example. I personally did not see it that way. Anyhow, aside from that person, this stuff is persistent on a daily basis for almost all Palestinian exports. How can you have any viable economy, where people would get busy away from trying to figure out how to take revenge and resorting to violence, if you can't have commerce with the outside world?

Ali | March 7, 2008, 3:35pm | #

yes, the international property registry is a logical place to look. they've got the star names, too.

sheesh, i expect better from you.

edna- I meant check how each person acquired a property. No need to go to any international organization. Israeli and Palestinian, and may be British (if that stuff is preserved) registry would suffice. I would think that the majority of Israelis in Israel proper would walk away with their rightfully earned properties. But it would be a step in the right direction.

Isaac Bartram | March 7, 2008, 3:41pm | #

Everybody go look up Ma'alot.

This form you say the Palestinians use does not sound too awfully much different from the one employed by Irgun and Haganah from the twenties through the forties.

The fact is that there has been far too much of this sordid kind of violence from true-believers on both sides.

Ali | March 7, 2008, 4:00pm | #

Isaac- That's why this thing is never going to be solved if we keep looking at yesterday's events, last week's, last month's, or the last two decades'. We really ought to go all the way back to those turbulent times in the 30s-40s to understand how deep the conflict is. Doing anything less than that is unfair to the Palestinian cause. Ultimately, way before Palestinian terro