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The Libertarian Party Still Loves Ron Paul

In what Alabama state LP chair (and former national LP employee) Stephen Gordon is calling an "unprecedented" move, the national LP, in a press release pushing their new "Liberty Decides" program (which basically allows people to show support for potential LP presidential candidates by donating in their name), notes their own party members enthusiasm for GOP candidate Ron Paul. In an email from national LP executive director Shane Cory that Gordon quotes:

due to the quantity of respectful e-mails, letters and phone calls that I receive from our own members, even if I tried, I could not ignore the fact that many Libertarians are excited about the candidacy of Dr. Ron Paul for the Republican nomination. In no way, shape or form, can I ignore the positive impact Dr. Paul’s campaign is making on America. I’m not asking you to do that either.

If you are a supporter of the Paul campaign and you want to send a message to the delegates of the 2008 Libertarian National Convention, you have the option to do so with this new program. If you are hopeful that Ron Paul (or another candidate) will seek the LP nomination, even as a “Plan B,” you can make a donation to show your support for a future/unannounced candidate (please include your preferred candidate’s name in the comment box when donating). Also, if you feel that the LP should not run a presidential candidate in 2008, you can put your support behind NOTA (none of the above).

Ron Paul was already the LP's presidential candidate in 1988, and remains a life member of the party. My July article on some reasons libertarians have been leery of the Paul campaign--and why in my judgement they shouldn't be.

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Comments to "The Libertarian Party Still Loves Ron Paul":

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 5:49pm | #

And who was that who has been saying that the Libertarian Party wasn't an offshoot of the GOP?

Bottom line:

1. The Libertarian Party was founded by a disgruntled Colorado Chairman of the Young Republicans.

2. The Libertarian Party's first Presidential candidate - John Hospers was a Republican.

3 Every single past Libertarian Party Presidential candidate has been or is currently now a Republican, with one sole exception - Harry Browne who was an anti-political unaffiliated Anarchist.

All those who've been pushing this stupid-ass "libertarians should align with the Democrats" meme for the last few years, have serious egg on their faces today.

Now, even the National Director of the Libertarian Party is acknowledging that the LP is tied at the hip to the GOP.

Eric Dondero, Founder
Republican Liberty Caucus

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 5:52pm | #

Think of the LP as now officially like the Conservative Party of New York State, structurally. And with the difference that the LP is on a national scale, whereby the Cons. Party of NY is limited to one state.

But in essence, the CP acts as an offshoot of the NY GOP.

And that's how the LP should act with the GOP nationally.

If the GOP nominates a non-libertarian candidate like McCain or Huckabee, run a strong LP ticket against the GOP to express our libertarian disastisfaction.

If the GOP nominates a moderately libertarian candidate like Giuliani or Thompson, than the LP should run a weak Presidential ticket like George Phillies or Steve Kubby, so as to not adversly affect the outcome of the general election.

Jamie Kelly | November 19, 2007, 5:54pm | #

I'll do the honors.

DONDEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

wj | November 19, 2007, 5:58pm | #

Can Paul be both the GOP nominee and the LP nominee, or does that not work in America?

Jamie Kelly | November 19, 2007, 5:59pm | #

But in essence, the CP acts as an offshoot of the NY GOP.
And that's how the LP should act with the GOP nationally.


R? W! T's a RST! IMHO, 2M. FYI, it's CAH.

thoreau | November 19, 2007, 5:59pm | #

Eric, things were a lot nicer here when you were in Tijuana.

pdog | November 19, 2007, 6:02pm | #

>Can Paul be both the GOP nominee and the LP nominee, or does that not work in America?

If so, does that mean I can vote for him twice?! (As a Republican and as a Libertarian)

Fluffy | November 19, 2007, 6:02pm | #

You know, that "Giuliani is a moderate libertarian" joke never gets old.

SIV | November 19, 2007, 6:04pm | #

At least this one sounds like the real Dondero.
Complete with the absurd "semi-libertarian" label for Giuliani.

steve | November 19, 2007, 6:06pm | #

Can Paul be both the GOP nominee and the LP nominee, or does that not work in America?


He can run as the LP if he doesn't get the GOP but i do not see him doing that because the system is so bias to 3rd parties. You can't be in any debates and it is hard to get on ballots.

Barry Goldwater Jr. just endorsed Ron Paul the other day also.

Rimfax | November 19, 2007, 6:07pm | #

All those who've been pushing this stupid-ass "libertarians should align with the Democrats" meme for the last few years, have serious egg on their faces today.

That was the most persuasive argument on this subject that I've heard all day. Of course, since I haven't heard any other arguments for why libertarians owe their allegiance to the Republicans today, well....

Brian Defferding | November 19, 2007, 6:09pm | #

Cool. While Paul isn't 100 percent Liberatarian, he's close enough for me, and I hope some of the libertarian "purists" stop getting their panties in a bundle and rally behind Paul.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 6:10pm | #

For the last time it was Mexicali, NOT Tijuana. Mexicali is much nicer.

That said, quick addendum to my post above. I forgot to mention this fact:

Every single elected Libertarian State Legislator ever, both in Alaska and New Hampshire, were elected as Republicans, or upon election served in the "Republican Caucus."

I reference Reason Magazine, 1986, front cover interview with Libertarian Alaska Legislator Andre Marrou.

Marrou says very clearly, "I caucus with the Republicans."

The LP was founded by a Republican

Every past Presidential candidate for the LP was or is a Republican, (with one single exception).

And every elected Libertarian State Legislator in 35 years, from both Alaska and New Hampshire, were Republicans.

So, why should we be surprised now that the National Director of the Libertarian Party is admitting that the LP is just an offshoot of the GOP?

libertarian republican | November 19, 2007, 6:12pm | #

Why the Libertarian Party is worthless...

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=yes&id=18555

isildur | November 19, 2007, 6:12pm | #

"Of course, since I haven't heard any other arguments for why libertarians owe their allegiance to the Republicans today, well...."

We might even vote for candidates, instead of parties. It's a tough concept, but there it is.

... Nah.

bob | November 19, 2007, 6:12pm | #

I have to wonder if Dondero isn't somehow connected to TX State Senator Dan Patrick, or his pair of AM talkers in Houston and Dallas. The Houston station, KSEV, aired a prearranged call with the managing editor of the Lone Star Times when they launched their first Ron Paul hit piece a few weeks ago. "The Times" has run two more baseless smear articles since.

Eric would fit right in with these lowlifes.

isildur | November 19, 2007, 6:13pm | #

Eric, tell me in single words only the good things that come to mind... about your mother?

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 6:14pm | #

Giuliani a "semi-libertarian"? Don't take my word for it. Take the word of:

ontheissues.org which rates him 60/60 as a "Moderate Libertarian."

Or, take the word of the 20 or so self-described "libertarian" celebrities, and elected officials who have endorsed Giuliani.

Or, take the word of the London Times-Herald, NY Times, Boston Globe, Washington Post, Washington Times, LA Times, Chicago Herald, and scores of other media who've called Giuliani a "libertarian" or "libertarian conservative."

Or, the NY Times who said of Giuliani:

"He's not even a real Republican. He's more of a welfare slashing, budget cutting extremist Ayn Randian."

Rimfax | November 19, 2007, 6:14pm | #

Where's Edward? Is Edward really Donderoooo's alter ego?

I swear that they are both foils for Paul. I have difficulty believing that anyone can be that assertively lame with full sincerity.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 6:16pm | #

Bob, can't stand Patrick. I know him well. Not only is he a Religous Right fanatic, he's a Safety-Authoritarian, as well.

At Barry Klien's Houston Property Assoc. luncheon while he was running I asked Patrick how he felt about seat belt laws. He said, without flinching:

"I'm all in favor of them... they save lives."

Urgh! Barry's entire audience gagged at his response. I walked out of the luncheon.

Patrick may hate Paul, but that doesn't mean he's on the side of the Angels.

isildur | November 19, 2007, 6:17pm | #

"Or, take the word of..."

Hey, Eric. How about I take the word of Rudy fucking Giuliani? It doesn't take a super genius to read what he says and writes, and parse it, and identify just how libertarian he is.

I know you're all about name-dropping bullshit, but sometimes it's ok to, you know, go to the source?

jj | November 19, 2007, 6:18pm | #

Reason Fantasy Elections Poll:

Please list your least, least favorite candidate and the reason you are supporting him/her:

1. Libertarian Party: Eric Dondero

2. Republican Party: "Edward"

3. Communist Party: Brian Doherty

Polls are open! Vote early and often!

bob | November 19, 2007, 6:18pm | #

Visit the Lone Star Times, Rimfax... One reader was so "impressed" with their constant coverage of Ron Paul that he secured a domain registration for RonPaulTimes.com, and set up a DNS referral to the Times.

Cleaner44 | November 19, 2007, 6:20pm | #

Ron Paul is very electable and his presidency will open the door for more Libertarians. Ron Paul dominates in Straw Polls, Debate Polls, Fund Raising, Web Traffic and Grass Roots Networking. I have created a website to support this statement.

Please visit www.thecaseforronpaulc.om and judge for yourself.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 6:20pm | #

Oh Isidur, I'm so sorry. Did I forget to mention a teensy weensy little fact about Giuliani?

HE CUT TAXES 23 TIMES AS MAYOR OF NEW YORK!

And he slashed the welfare rolls.

Don't like endorsements? Don't like surveys?

Fine. Look at the record.

And Giuliani's record of fiscal conservatism is quite strong.

Cleaner44 | November 19, 2007, 6:21pm | #

Straw Polls, Debate Polls, Fund Raising, Web Traffic and Grass Roots Networking. I have created a website to support this statement. Please visit www.thecaseforronpaul.com and judge for yourself.

Josh | November 19, 2007, 6:21pm | #

WJ:

Yes, a canidate can be nominated by more than 1 party. The happened before with william jennings bryan in the late 1800's. He was nominated by the prograssives, and the democrats (I believe)

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 6:22pm | #

South Carolina poll just released minutes ago.

Giuliani and Romney are virtually tied at 19 and 20%.

Ron Paul is stagnant at 3%.

Warren | November 19, 2007, 6:22pm | #

As one who has voted only for LP candidates and has run as a Libertarian, I would be thrilled beyond words to vote for Republican Ron Paul.

If he isn't the GOP nominee, he said he won't mount a third party campaign, and I agree. The LP will carry on as it has and I will give it my full support. But I'd really like to have two flavors of libertarians running against each other. Then I could ignore the government altogether.

isildur | November 19, 2007, 6:23pm | #

"HE CUT TAXES 23 TIMES AS MAYOR OF NEW YORK!"

Um, so what? George W. Bush cut taxes. Is that all you think libertarianism is? "Fiscal conservatism"? Jesus, no wonder your posts are so useless.

JParker | November 19, 2007, 6:23pm | #

I believe the Constitution Party has already come out and said that if the Republicans nominate Ron Paul they will nominate him as well. Or maybe it was just the leadership. I don't see why the Libertarians couldn't do the same thing.
Quote from Badnarik 2004’s sacrificial lamb/LP presidential candidate
“I hope the Libertarian Party is smart enough to say, ‘Oh ho, somebody we can trust!’ and nominate Ron Paul as our nominee,” he said. “We should set the Republican, Democrat, Libertarian labels aside, and vote for Ron Paul the person.”

Ron Paul has said before that if Texas law allowed he would register under both parties as well as Republican. I am not sure what the law says of the reverse or if a political party even needs the permission of the candidate to put them on the ballot.

Kyle | November 19, 2007, 6:25pm | #

I think I liked Dondero a lot better when he was presumed to be kidnapped.

"What we don't see is that freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be. Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do."
-Rudy Giuliani

"Mainstream libertarian" Eric Dondero is on Rudy Giuliani's payroll, as he has stated, and it really shows.

Lost_In_Translation | November 19, 2007, 6:27pm | #

Guliani = neoconservative (former social liberal, and Robert F Kennedy admirer, who embraced the neverending war on terror along with the daddy state approach to governing)

Fundamnetally, Guliani would choose the civil rights he would respect (and we bastards should be grateful for whatever he throws us I guess), he would sink the US into more and worse conflicts abroad and he try to implement the policies he set in place in New York upon the rest of the US...for our own good.

Guliani is Caesar, not Cato (though I never really liked Cato either)

Rimfax | November 19, 2007, 6:28pm | #

Google news search SAYS!!!......ZippoOOO!

Google web search SAYS!!!......DonderoOOO!

Lost_In_Translation | November 19, 2007, 6:31pm | #

Cleaner44,

Good god man, we get it.

I'm a Paul supporter and even I'm getting annoyed by these "visit the x site and learn about Ron Paul" people. Go hand out pamphlets or something.

John C Jackson | November 19, 2007, 6:32pm | #

I though Dondero didn't consider his former boss Ron Paul a "real Republican." Now he uses Republican Ron Paul to show that Libertarians are really Republicans.

Make up your mind.

Fluffy | November 19, 2007, 6:32pm | #

So Eric stands up and walks out of a luncheon because somebody favors seat belt laws...but longs to roll his tongue over Giuliani's hairy little penis.

So Eric, Giuliani isn't a "safety authoritarian"? I think there are some ferret owners in New York who might disagree with you.

Rimfax | November 19, 2007, 6:33pm | #

Google news archive search SAYS!!!.....New HampshireOOO?

Lost_In_Translation | November 19, 2007, 6:36pm | #

Fluffy,

Don't forget about those menacing jaywalkers. Goddamn them.

Rimfax | November 19, 2007, 6:36pm | #

Full diclosure: I excluded the phrase "moderate libertarian conservative" since that's like "moderately kinky amish".

ACJohn | November 19, 2007, 6:37pm | #

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 5:49pm | #

And who was that who has been saying that the Libertarian Party wasn't an offshoot of the GOP?

Bottom line:

1. The Libertarian Party was founded by a disgruntled Colorado Chairman of the Young Republicans.



Lets see, Libertarian party started by a republican means it’s republican

Rudy Giuliani was a democrat then switched

What does that say about Rudy?

Elemenope | November 19, 2007, 6:40pm | #

As ridiculous as Dondero may be--and it's hard to oversell that point--he is right insofar as the Libertarian movement in America has had its head up the Elephant's ass for a good long time now.

Now it would be silly to run to the Democrats (who are crass statists), but the association has allowed Republicans to co-opt the rhetoric and hijack an entire consistency while getting nothing but mean-spirited, Christ-powered, crony statism in return. And the dems have at least some of the lib social agenda in hand, even if it does come married ironically with the power of the state.

Heck, even The Nation throws R. Paul a bone every once in a while. When was the last time Reason wrote about a Democrat in a way that wasn't patronizing?

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 6:42pm | #

Means Rudy is like Reagan (or Joe Lieberman). Both were Democrats than they saw the light.

Mad Max | November 19, 2007, 6:44pm | #

Eric,

Your comments are remarkably reasonable and bile-free, so you're entitled to a more respectful response than the conventional H&R "rebuttal" of "lol u suk."

So here we go:

I can see how some left-libertarians could support Giuliani. In the context of New York City politics, he looks like a fiscal conservative (of course, one could argue that anyone to the right of Fidel Castro would look like a conservative in the People's Republic of NYC, but let me stay on track here). Also, his support of "abortion rights" would seem to put him in the "fiscally conservative/socially-liberal" category that some left-libertarians like.

The very reasons which make Giuliani appealing to the left-libertarians make me wary of him, especially when we're talking Giuliani v. Dr. Paul. Dr. Paul wants to restore legal protection to the unborn (while respecting the Tenth Amendment, a loophole allowing some pro-aborts to support him), but unlike some other pro-lifers, he isn't a Bush-worshipper or a Wilsonian "make the world safe for democracy" type.

As I see it, the Paul v. Giuliani contest is a question of Dr. Paul v. RuPaul.

ACJohn | November 19, 2007, 6:45pm | #

Eric:
Means Rudy is like Reagan (or Joe Lieberman). Both were Democrats than they saw the light.

They saw the light but the Libertarians didn’t?

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 6:46pm | #

Thanks for the honest response Mad Max. But I think you've got it bass ackwards. To me, Ron Paul is the leftist cause of his soft pacifist views on fighting Islamo-Fascism. While Rudy who is strong on defense, is more the Right-winger.

I'm pretty sure, but not 100% certain that Rudy is also Pro-Death Penalty.

I do know that my former boss Ron Paul is passionately against the Death Penalty for any reason whatsoever.

That would make Rudy the Right-winger and Paul the Leftwinger.

SIV | November 19, 2007, 6:46pm | #

And the dems have at least some of the lib social agenda in hand

LMNOP

What the Fuck would that be?

Lost_In_Translation | November 19, 2007, 6:46pm | #

Is anyone denying that the Libertarian party was founded by former republicans?

Eric just wants us to come to the "right" conclusion and vote for Giuliani, that's his whole point. But guess what, libertarians, like everybody else, ARE NOT BEHOLDEN TO ANY PARTY. They vote for a set of beliefs they have in common and whoever satisfies those beliefs best gets their vote. They may compromise certain beliefs in hopes to stop larger problems, but they can vote whichever way they feel like.

Bah, I feel like thumping somebody upside the head for this inanity.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 6:50pm | #

Not exactly, Lost in Translation. I know many of you could never vote for Rudy. You'll probably cast your vote for Phillies or Kubby. And that's fine.

No, what I'm aiming for is some acknowledgement that we libertarians ARE INDEED REPUBLICANS WHO LIKE TO HAVE A GOOD TIME!

Just as PJ O'Rourke has been saying for years.

All I ask is that you all support good libertarian-leaning Republican candidates for Congress and US Senate and other offices. Get involved with the RLC in your respective states.

Oh, I do ask one other thing.

If by chance Rudy were to pick a libertarian running-mate like Sarah Palin or Mark Sanford, in that case, I would hope that you all would consider voting for him in the general.

crouton | November 19, 2007, 6:53pm | #

"HE CUT TAXES 23 TIMES AS MAYOR OF NEW YORK!"

All while not cutting spending a bit. He increased the NY's debt by 50% and left a $4.5 billion deficit to his successor.

Just what we all need, another credit card conservative with an authoritarian streak...

Tom D | November 19, 2007, 6:53pm | #

Dondero?

Didn't he get kidnapped by space aliens? Didn't Kucinich see it go down?

Isaac Bartram | November 19, 2007, 6:53pm | #

Yes, Eric, The LP was founded by renegade Young Republicans and YAFers.

They left the GOP and Young Americans for Freedom over primarily one issue - THE WAR IN VIET NAM.

Why should they link themselves to a party that is even more pro-interventionist than the one they left thirty-five years ago?
libertarians ARE INDEED REPUBLICANS WHO LIKE TO HAVE A GOOD TIME!
Yeah, old drugwar fightin', gun banning, hooker-harassing Rudy's gonna give us that!

Yes he will, good and hard. Just like we deserve.

John-David | November 19, 2007, 6:54pm | #

I'm pretty sure, but not 100% certain that Rudy is also Pro-Death Penalty.

I do know that my former boss Ron Paul is passionately against the Death Penalty for any reason whatsoever.


Last I checked, there hasn't been a single person executed in this country for over six weeks. I haven't seen a correlating criminal surge.

Also, last I checked libertarianism holds that the state should have minimal power over a person's existence, which would definitely include denying the state the power over life and death of its civilians.

Kyle | November 19, 2007, 6:57pm | #

Rudy would continue raids on patients using medicinal marijuana.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyq7IzONnsk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYEUpTqmgSw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsVSgNQTVUk

Rudy Giuliani thinks that freedom is about authority. Fiscal conservatism plus Pro-Choice does not make Rudy Giuliani a libertarian. Sarah Palin and Mark Sanford are both fine citizens and would make fantastic Vice-Presidents, but I don't see how any libertarian could vote for a ticket topped by Rudy Giuliani.

Silverwolf | November 19, 2007, 7:00pm | #

Guiliani is a communist, obviously, since he believes in controlled-substance laws. Under Roosevelt and Stalin, gold was a controlled substance. Under modern communists like Guiliani, it's cannabis. Anyone who thinks he's a libertarian, hasn't read his Hayek.
Libertarianism is a big tent philosophy; and is based on discussion and debate. I believe no one who supports the death penalty can be a Libertarian, but I have met many who call themselves Libertarian, who believe in it, and are sincere. We are not monolithic, like the bi-partisan collectivists.

Crouton | November 19, 2007, 7:02pm | #

We really need to stamp out the notion that republicans like Giuliani are fiscal conservatives. They are credit card conservatives.

Cutting taxes while increasing spending is a coward's way out. People love tax cuts. They love spending. Give 'em both. Their children and grandchildren who will bear the full cost of this aren't voting anyway so who cares about them (or the future of the country)?

Mad Max | November 19, 2007, 7:02pm | #

Eric,

I’m not going to give Giuliani *too* much love.

If right-wingery has come to include supporting abortion (including govt-subsidized abortions), dressing in woman’s clothing, and jumping from wife to wife like a horny Mario Brother, then, yes, Giuliani is a right-winger.

Check out this guy – he supports Huckabee, not Dr. Paul, but I endorse his criticism of Giuliani.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58758

(yes, the link is from World Net Daily. So sue me)

“the most common justification they [“pro-life” Giuliani apologists] give is that Giuliani would be better than Clinton in the war on terrorism. While it may or may not be true, let's assume it is. When someone says they will support a pro-abort for that reason, what they are really saying is, ‘I'm willing to let unborn babies be dropped in the grease by the millions if that's what it takes to save my own skin.’”

Elemenope | November 19, 2007, 7:04pm | #

SIV:

You're kidding, right? The democratic party has been better than the republican party for the last forty years or so on the following issues:

easing drug laws
ending corporate welfare
justice system reform
civil liberties (except guns. tsk, tsk.)
civil rights, generally
abortion (I know this is a touchy one with some libs)
free trade (how absurd is that?!)
death penalty
immigration
homosexual equality under the law
respect for the rule of law
opposing tort limits

Am I missing anything?

bob | November 19, 2007, 7:11pm | #

In 2000, a lot of libertarians voted for Bush. In 2004 a lot more stayed home rather than hang their chad for the douche or turd.

Among non-libertarians, frustration with the pre-ordained lesser-of-two-evils candidates is measurable.

Many Ron Paul supporters confess that they have never contributed to or volunteered for candidate before, or as a popular home-made sign says, "Dr. Paul cured my apathy."

The timing is right for the revolution.

SIV | November 19, 2007, 7:11pm | #

Elemenope,


Surely you hail from some alternate dimension/reality. The Dems have been as bad or worse on drugs,civil liberties, corporate welfare and the h other issues.Several of the things you list are not exactly libertarian issues as they are defined in our political environment.

Eric the .5b | November 19, 2007, 7:13pm | #

Donderoooooooooooooo!
I reference Reason Magazine, 1986, front cover interview with Libertarian Alaska Legislator Andre Marrou.

Marrou says very clearly, "I caucus with the Republicans."
The guy who also said, "Liberals want the government to be your Mommy. Conservatives want government to be your Daddy. Libertarians want it to treat you like an adult"?

Remind us, does he identify with torturers and half-assed nation-builders 21 years later?

To be explicit, why exactly should we give a shit?

Mark Stromberg | November 19, 2007, 7:14pm | #

Did Dondero fail in Mexicali as a performer in the local donkey show?

Good to see he is back, but he seems to not even show up on the radar for the congressional race. Looks like he’ll be earning money “the hard way” in Mexicali soon.

Ty | November 19, 2007, 7:14pm | #

It's only economics that Republicans and Libertarians even come close to seeing eye to eye.

Lost_In_Translation | November 19, 2007, 7:17pm | #

Eric,

Sorry, but even an endorsement by zombie Goldwater and zombie Taft in concert with Washington, Jefferson and Adams couldn't bring me to vote for Giuliani. If that puts me in the minority, fine, atleast I don't have to fight the traffic. Giuliani has burned alot of bridges to get where he is and said too much to go back and make up with alot of us Paul libertarians. And I think he will find out how much it will cost him. I'm pretty sure I can't convince all my friends and relatives to vote for Paul, but I can convince them fairly easily to shun Giuliani, for many and varied reasons. I will do all in my power to prevent that man from getting elected and I think I speak for many who believe in Paul that they will do the same.

Dondero, the Paul group might not be able to get their man elected, but you will see we are big enough to prevent Guliani from ever becoming president, thanks to his policies, comments and abuse his supporters have paid upon us. The same my be said in reciprocal, but rest assured, Giuliani will not win, and I would bet everything I owned on that.

Anthony Gregory | November 19, 2007, 7:17pm | #

Dondero writes: "[W]e libertarians ARE INDEED REPUBLICANS WHO LIKE TO HAVE A GOOD TIME!"

My response:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory133.html

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 7:20pm | #

Alright guys, I admit it: I'm a completely biased neocon hack who would sodomize Rudy if given the chance. Please forgive my ignorance. I hereby retract all previous negative statements I have said about Ron Paul, and admit the fact that he is twice the man I will ever be.

Roberto Leibman | November 19, 2007, 7:23pm | #

It's only economics that Republicans and Libertarians even come close to seeing eye to eye.

And not even that! As someone said above they are credit card conservatives.

I've made this argument before: Even assuming republicans want social control and economic freedom while democrats want social freedom and social control, the worst part of this is that republicans care more for their social agenda than for their economic one, while democrats care more for their economic agenda than their social one: net result... yup, social and economic control, Statism. Authoritarianism. Yup... worst of both worlds indeed.

And sorry, I was not here the day the meme started, what's up with the Donderooooo bit?

SIV | November 19, 2007, 7:26pm | #

It's only economics that Republicans and Libertarians even come close to seeing eye to eye.

Only economics?

Economics covers a rather broad swath of human behavior.Nearly everything flows from property rights- the idea that you own yourself and are free to engage in voluntary activities/exchanges with other self-owned individuals.

Elemenope | November 19, 2007, 7:36pm | #

No, no alternate universe. BTW, I think that American Libertarianism, while it may take its economics from the Austrian school, finds most of its historical grounding and claim from American Constitutionalism. Hence, while some of the issue might not be directly Libertarian, they follow from the Constitutionalism that has always been a fairly tight companion to Lib thought in the US.

Overall, the Dems have been better than the Repubs on drugs, civil liberties, and corporate welfare. I didn't say they were saints and angels; all I said was they were better than the Republicans, and at least they pay lip service to those issues the way that Repubs pay lip service to "small government". The difference, I think, is occasionally the dems actually try their rhetoric out.

It was democrats and not republicans who first started talking about drug abuse as a medical rather than a criminal issue and have fairly consistently pushed that direction while repubs were content to stuff the prisons and build more when those got full. On civil liberties, most erosions have been from the drug war (historically a republican policy) and from terrorism-scare measures which, aside from R. Paul, were swallowed whole by repubs. The only significant resistance aside from him, however feeble, came from the democratic side of the aisle. The only one on this I'll give you is the 2nd amendment, and I mentioned that in the original post.

And, in the guise of "privatization", which is repub code for "crony no-bid contract system" repubs are the kings of giving tax money to private interests for, well, no good reason. Again, the dems win, if only marginally.

Come on, SIV, the Republican party has gone so far and deep into the Dark Side that it is painful to see Libertarians still line up like lemmings for them. At least Ron Paul gets to show them something of what a libertarian republican is supposed to look like.

Pig Mannix | November 19, 2007, 7:36pm | #

1. Libertarian Party: Eric Dondero

Great. As if they don't have enough problems getting elected already.

Eric Sundwall | November 19, 2007, 7:38pm | #

As a former Conservative Party member in NY and a happily settled LP devotee, I'm hard pressed to find any succor in a Rudy or Hillary choice. Ain't never been an elephant or donkey.

If RP were the miraculous GOP nominee I'd still vote for Donald Duck if that's who the LP ran. Either way Hil takes NY and my vote is tossed into the Electoral College dustbin of history. I'd rather put the vote in the LP column than adhere to any fantasy scenario. A reality soon coming for the RP revolution . . . where will they go after Feb. 5th ? Just home ? Let's hope that the 50K+ Meetup volunteers learn to collect signatures in their own congressional districts and let the next Ron Paul come from that lot of hopefuls. Fifty volunteers at a 100 sigs add up. the LP would be happy to have you . . .

Whatever happened to the good old fashioned protest vote ? That's why I voted for Paul in '88. I have no interest in thinking I'm on the winning side of the existential hell that is either/or voting . . . us niche voters need an outlet too you know.

Of course what old Gordo is suggesting is that the LP change the bylaws on the floor of the convention to entertain another Paul LP run. Whether or not Paul will is the real question. He's better off keeping his seat and being the lifelong gadfly to power that he has always been. Half a million to a million votes is nice for a small state's Senatorial race . . . not much beyond that.

Spencer | November 19, 2007, 7:43pm | #

Eric,

I got the impression that you opposed the existence and enforcement of laws against harmless conduct (like seat belt laws, anti-prostitution laws, and those criminalizing the possession / use of marijuana). If that is the correct impression, then how can you support Giuliani who jailed more people for smoking marijuana than any previous or subsequent NYC mayor?

Here's the source: http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/167/giuliani.shtml

As for prostitution, well, that became one of Giuliani's "quality of life" offenses, which he vigorously enforced while mayor. He arrested johns and confiscated their cars as contraband. Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/reportsfromabroad/champblog/2007/07/excuse_me_madam_but_your_list.html

How does any of that fit in with your libertarian views?

Thanks,

Spencer

JParker | November 19, 2007, 7:44pm | #

in answer to the thread of Ron Paul is too soft on the war on terror.

The "Islamo-Fascists" should be quaking in their sandals at the prospect of a Paul presidency.
Because.
1. They will have to come to the US which for them is a difficult logistical task. There are very few "fish" in the sea over here for them to swim with in the Maoist sense.
2. While they will happily kill us at this point no matter what we do or where we are some of their financial backers are more discriminatory.
3. As the enemy we provide a unity that could not otherwise exist. Many of them would rather fight perceived Islamic heresy.
4. A successful attack on the U.S. will not result in photogenic cruise missile strikes. It will mean bounty hunters with letters of marquise.
5. Non-interference means just that. It means the US will look the other way and keep on trading with countries that feed them feet first into grinding machines.
6. With Ron Paul all wars will be declared. In the U.S. a declared war means the destruction of all enemy forces and either the annexation or partition of their territory. See Mexican-American War, American Civil War, Spanish-American War, WWI, WWII. We tried taking Canada in the War of 1812 but didn’t quite manage instead settling for a draw where we kept the Louisiana Purchase. Which could have been lost if the British had been able to dictate terms. I’m sure the Brits would have just given New Orleans back after they learned that a peace treaty had already been signed when they captured it.

Robert | November 19, 2007, 7:48pm | #

There is no such thing as Islamo-fascism; such an ideology does not exist. It is part of a propaganda tactic designed to elicit the fear response in the weak-minded and uninformed public. The grand strategy is to extend Imperium Americana into oil-rich lands of Arabia and Persia, but this can only be done with the submission to authority of the population. Since the economic benefits of empire are realized only by a relative few, the people need to be convinced that they are benefiting in some other way. The imaginary war against Islamo-fascism is an idea that appeals to irrational cowards like Dondero; they think that war is benefiting them by ensuring their survival, that they would die if not for the war, but the truth is the opposite. War is the greatest threat to their liberty and survival.

Elemenope | November 19, 2007, 7:53pm | #

JParker:

A lot of that sounds great, and #3 is particularly true...however, on #4 (letters of marque), most nations no longer recognize them as legitimate due to the Declaration of Paris; while the US is not a signatory, any such act by the US probably would not be perceived as distinguished from an actual act of war (which is the whole point, to take action short of war).

On #6, I think territorial acquisition as a legitimate endpoint of modern war is neither feasible nor wise. All wars should be declared, though, you are right about that.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 7:55pm | #

Isaac, you display your gross ignorance of Libertarian movement history by implying that the Vietnam War was the reason Libertarians started the LP in 1971.

Ask David Nolan, LP Founder.

Story goes, he was watching the Nightly News, and Cronkite came on and announced that Nixon was imposing wage & price controls. It was that single issue, that led Nolan to call the first meeting of the Libertarian Party in Westminster (not Denver), Colorado, on Dec. 11, 1971.

In addition, the Military Draft was more of an issue to Libertarians at the time, than the Vietnam War.

Anti-War Libertarian propogandists have cleverly spined early Libertarian opposition to the Draft, to opposition to the Vietnam War itself. Not the case at all.

Just ask any of the oldtimers who were around at the time like Dana Rohrabacher or Kevin Bjornsen.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 7:55pm | #

Household item:

Obviously, someone posted a comment under my name about 5 or 6 above this one. Those are not my words.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 7:58pm | #

Please note, as for Anthony Gregory, he's a complete Newbie to the libertarian movement. He popped up his grubby little grad student head in the libertarian movement about 3 or 4 years ago.

He knows nothing about the libertarian movement from the 1970s, 80s and 90s, only what he has heard from extremely biased sources like Justin Raimondo, Rockwell, and Garris.

Gregory likes to think there was never such a thing as the Libertarian Defense Caucus, and that Pro-Defense Libertarianism is something brand new created by me, and a handful of others.

He needs to go back and read some old copies of Reason, LP News and American Libertarian, before he starts spouting off garbage to us oldtimer Libertarians.

Francois Tremblay | November 19, 2007, 8:00pm | #

Why is this Eric Dondero troll not banned yet?

Nash | November 19, 2007, 8:00pm | #

Eric I don't understand how you can declare war on the entire arab world and dump hundreds of billions of dollars into overseas intervention and then claim to be fiscally conservative. Sure you can keep taxes low but that just runs up the deficit which is just taxation on future generations.

If you can explain to me how we can continue to wage these wars and be "fiscally conservative" simultaneously I'll give you a gold star for the day. You can't slash the welfare state and end up in the black either, military expenditures are simply too great.

No, the only solution is to stop the military adventures abroad. Yes the welfare state is unbecoming as well, but tax and spend conservatism is the reason I often vote L in protest. Nation building is too expensive and until the GOP acknowledges this I can't overlook their other shortcomings. Sorry.

SIV | November 19, 2007, 8:04pm | #

the drug war (historically a republican policy)

Holy Christ not this again. You can't be that historically ignorant. You must be trolling, I'll bite:

Drug prohibition is a progressive policy.It began at the Federal level under Wilson.FDR and the New Deal Congress banned marijuana. Tip O'Neil and a Democrat Congress gave us the zero tolerance/mandatory minimum draconian Federal Laws we have today.Clinton's Justice Department
raided Med MJ clinics. The WoDs is bipartisan but the ideology of banning and regulating "dangerous substances" is wholly from "Progressive" tradition.

Freedom4America | November 19, 2007, 8:07pm | #

Dr. Ron Paul is the only Statesman running. As for Ghouliana I would NOT vote for that monster in a million years.

There are over a hundred Firemen that can NOT vote next year and many of their deaths can be blamed on Ghouliana's incompetence and greed. Check the site below.

therealrudy.org/radios?utm_source=rgemail

Forget about the so-called scientific polls that the MSM are showing. They are totally bogus. A Blind Poll was done by Zogby and Dr. Paul received 32.8% of the votes from a total of 1009 hard-line Republicans.

Tomorrow Zogby will be making a Press Release on this on their site. For now you can read the results that the purchaser posted.

truthseeds.org/2007/11/19/ron-paul-wins-latest-zogby-poll/#comment-211

ONLY A Doctor WILL HEAL Our Country,
Freedom4America

ACJohn | November 19, 2007, 8:08pm | #

Hey Eric,

Thomas Kean Sr. endorses Mccain

ACJohn | November 19, 2007, 8:13pm | #

Forgot, maybe if Rudy read the 911 Commission Report he might have gotten the endorsement

Brian Defferding | November 19, 2007, 8:17pm | #

Rudy thinks Iran is a greater danger to America than Iraq. Now I've disagreed with many candidates on things here or there. But any candidate who says THAT is, quite frankly, a nutbar and isn't worth my time, isn't worth my support, isn't worth my vote. Sorry Eric.

He could be a nice Secretary of Defense though. It would be great comedy. Think of the general in Mars Attacks and you get the idea.

Elemenope | November 19, 2007, 8:22pm | #

Perhaps you were asleep (or not yet alive) when the Rockefeller drug laws (what party was he from again?) made drugs from a fourth-tier somewhat-lower-than-parking-ticket prioritized offense to public enemy #1? Both parties abandoned prohibition of alcohol (which was the main target of turn of the century progressives) well before Rockefeller laws became the new war on the 4th amendment.

By the time Clinton meandered into office the entire american political spectrum had slid so far to the right on drugs that no politician could suggest anything but zero-tolerance and hope to retain their seat. However, in the '60s-'80s (particularly the latter half) democrats were still fighting the medicine v. crime fight and republicans had a big ol' stick up their ass. O'Neill had to corral a very unhappy liberal wing of his party to push any legislation on waging the drug war, and many of them didn't vote for it anyway. The Republican opposition during those years? Pretty much...Ron Paul.

And while banning 'dangerous substances' may be a progressive tradition, locking people up and throwing away the key for two-buck crimes is firmly a republican mainstay, and that has pretty much never changed (since, well, TR).

iih | November 19, 2007, 8:23pm | #

Is there an LP Presidential nominee yet?

rah62 | November 19, 2007, 8:39pm | #

The "LP was started by Republicans, therefore the LP should align itself with Republicans" argument glosses over one key fact. The former Republicans who started the LP and have served as its Presidential candidates were just that - FORMER Republicans. They LEFT the Republican party.

Ron Paul fled back to the Rs (for good reason as he's not a libertarian - a mostly consistent anti-federalist, but no libertarian) - and the fact that the Neanderthals in the Conservative party are getting all moist about Ron Paul is proof that libertarians should run - not walk - away from him.

sage | November 19, 2007, 8:42pm | #

According to CNN, Ron Paul has pulled ahead of Fred Thompson in New Hampshire.

David E. Gallaher | November 19, 2007, 8:43pm | #

If the Libertarian Party could manage to suck it up, declare this Presidential election cycle the exception, and then throw it's support to Ron, then I promise to speak with my people and do the same with the Peaceful Anarchist Party.

(Okay, for the few dull here, there is no Peaceful Anarchist Party, plus I have no "people." In other words, I'm joking.)

Scott | November 19, 2007, 8:44pm | #

"To me, Ron Paul is the leftist cause of his soft pacifist views on fighting Islamo-Fascism. While Rudy who is strong on defense, is more the Right-winger."

Correction... Ron Paul is strong on defense. Rudy is strong on offense and weak on defense.

JParker | November 19, 2007, 8:46pm | #

In regards to #6 I never said we would have to keep it ourselves. We could just as easily break it into smaller states or let other neighboring countries claim it. Like was done to Austria-Hungary and Germany.
In regards to #3 I understand that a Letter of Marquise is thin cover for what would otherwise be considered a terrorist act. That a coordinated American campaign of assassinations could result in international relations problems. But assuming that Ron Paul is unsuccessful at pulling us out of the UN (I believe the Senate would have to approve it) a veto on the Security Council makes you sanction-proof. Besides I don’t think Russia or China would care one bit. An attempted sanction by the EU could tear the EU apart.

SIV | November 19, 2007, 8:47pm | #

Perhaps you were asleep (or not yet alive) when the Rockefeller drug laws (what party was he from again?)

New York State Law not Federal.

"Rockefeller Republican" is a synonym for Liberal Establishment Republican and was the preferred slur among Conservatives until it was replaced by RINO.

Republicans and Democrats are equally bad on the WoDs but the ideology behind it is un-equivocally Progressive as opposed to
Conservative.

This "Dems are better on the Drug War" meme crops up every election along with the distortion that Republicans/Conservatives are going to revive the Draft(who supports that now?..."National Service"). I presume it is an attempt to sway some of the apathetic youth vote.

Nash | November 19, 2007, 8:48pm | #

"Ron Paul fled back to the Rs (for good reason as he's not a libertarian - a mostly consistent anti-federalist, but no libertarian)"

RP is a member of the Republican party because that is how manages to get elected to congress and gets a place at the podium in the debates. If he is a libertarian he gets none of these benefits.

It is simply more practical for him to run as a Republican.

Libertarians who refuse to support Paul because he is only 95% libertarian and happens to be pro life and tough on the border need to wake up and realize he's done more for the movement in that last 9 months than the entire party has done in 40 years.

Edward | November 19, 2007, 8:52pm | #

Maybe some smart libertarian can explain to me how racism is collectivism but fundamentalist Christian nationalism isn't. Fundamentalist Christians like Ron Paul divide the world into the colectivities of Christian/non-Christian, Saved/Damned, and all sorts of other absurd dichotomies. Why should we trust this particular wingnut religious fanatic?

Nobody has ever answered my question about Ron Paul's contention that God is mentioned many times in the Constitution. Is he lying or is he just an total ignoramus?

Elemenope | November 19, 2007, 8:57pm | #

SIV: The Rockefeller laws were used as the model for Nixon et al.'s WoD. And I don't grant the notion that the WoD is purely of "progressive" ideological stock. Conservatism of the traditional paleo-American sort (the dominant strain for a long, long time) looked upon drugs the way that Puritans looked upon rum, as another assault on good family American life.

Social conservatives were so very happy to ban everything in sight in the name of morality, God, the troops, apple pie, saving marriages, and preventing communism, and to say that this was somehow a Progressive idea alone is quite literally absurd. The constitutional amendment to prohibit alcohol had broad support amongst both progressives and social conservatives, and the amendment to repeal the same ironically only got support from the one of those two: progressives.

The only ideology whose hands are mostly clean on the issue of drugs is the libertarian, and even they are wont to account for the effects of drugs that at the point of use negatively affect people who had no role in the choice to partake. While I mostly agree with the libertarian view on drugs, it is somewhat problematic that the ideology has little effective or constructive to say on the halo effects of drug use.

ACJohn | November 19, 2007, 8:58pm | #

Edward,

'Nobody has ever answered my question about Ron Paul's contention that God is mentioned many times in the Constitution. Is he lying or is he just an total ignoramus?"

Where and when?

Cesar | November 19, 2007, 9:00pm | #

God was (indirectly) mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, but certainly not Jesus.

In the Constitution, only indirectly at the end as a means of dating ("In the Year of Our Lord 1787"...etc).

SIV | November 19, 2007, 9:03pm | #

Elemonope,

So where are these "liberaltarian" Democrats? Or any leftist who supports Individualism over Collectivism. I asked Neu Mejican this question and all he could come up with was Cynthia McKinney.(that joke is even funnier if you live in her district)

thoreau | November 19, 2007, 9:04pm | #

Nobody wants to answer your questions, Edward. We just want to mock you mercilessly. And we do.

Cesar | November 19, 2007, 9:04pm | #

Question to SIV:

Two men are running to be governor of your state. One is Bill Richardson, the other Orin Hatch. Who do you vote for?

sage | November 19, 2007, 9:04pm | #

Hey, Edward has not answered my question. And my posts are worthy of consideration.

Deb | November 19, 2007, 9:10pm | #

I don't understand why any libertarian would run under the Libertarian Party. Why stack the odds against yourself more than you have to? All libertarians should join the Republican Party. To change the system you have to join the system and change it from the inside out.

SIV | November 19, 2007, 9:12pm | #

Cesar,

I stay home. But to answer your question hypothetically, Richardson is the only option in that pairing.Counter examples would lead to the Republican choice much more often. Jeff Flake and Henry Waxman.... make your choice.

Cesar | November 19, 2007, 9:21pm | #

Jeff Flake and Henry Waxman.... make your choice.

Flake, no contest. I guess my point was both parties have their more authoritarian and less authoritarian wings. moralistic Christian Conservatives vs. free market, pork-busting conservatives on one hand, "nanny state" liberals vs. "lifestyle"/civil liberals on the other.

SIV | November 19, 2007, 9:28pm | #

Cesar,

The Party thing kind of confuses the issue.
I imagine there are a few "libertarian-leaning " Democrat Politicians out there in local offices and Western/Southern State legislatures.

I reject any idea of common ground between left-liberals and libertarians on the grounds that leftism is collectivism. Conservatives and libertarians do share an individualist ideology.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 9:30pm | #

Cesar, guess you don't know your Libertarian Party history now do you?

Orrin Hatch was the Keynote Speaker at the Libertarian Party National Convention held in Salt Lake City, UT in 1998 (I might be slightly off on that year.)

So, Bill "Ban smoking everywhere in New Mexico" Richardson vs. Orrin Hatch?

I'll take Hatch, thank you.

Tina | November 19, 2007, 9:31pm | #

I love RON PAUL because he is authentic and is
NOT FOR SALE to the lobbyists. I have never been
so excited about a pres. candidate. GO RON.....

Cesar | November 19, 2007, 9:33pm | #

So, Bill "Ban smoking everywhere in New Mexico" Richardson vs. Orrin Hatch?

Medical marijuana is just a tad more important to me than smoking bans.

That aside, you'll vote for Giualiani.....even though he avidly endorsed smoking bans and wants the feds to raid medical marijuana clinics? And hes a gun-grabber?

iih | November 19, 2007, 9:34pm | #

Eric:

You still owe me an apology. I demand it! You, as a patriot, should realize that you have offended a fellow America-loving human being (ma) who serves her so proudly. I insist!

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 9:36pm | #

This one's for rah62,

You've got your facts wrong. Go back and study Libertarian Party history. Ron Paul is NOT the only former LP Prez candidate to rejoin the GOP.

Roger MacBride, 1976 Libertarian Party Presidential candidate rejoined the GOP in 1985. He eventually became the National Chairman of the Republican Liberty Caucus and served in that capacity til his untimely death in 1995.

Dr. John Hospers, the LP's first Presidential candidate from 1972 rejoined the Republican Party, and even very publicly endorsed George W. Bush in 2004. Dr. Hospers was on our Advisory Board for Libertarians for Bush in 2004.

It is heavily rumored that Andre Marrou has also found his way back to the GOP.

Russell Means, who ran against Ron Paul for the LP nomination in 1988, now serves as the South Dakota RLC State Contact.

Those who remain in the LP include: Ed Clark, David Bergland, and Michael Badnarik. Though, notably, Badnarik endorsed Ron Paul recently.

iih | November 19, 2007, 9:37pm | #

"ma" -- "me", duh!

Cesar | November 19, 2007, 9:37pm | #

Eric-

Libertarian!=libertarian.

Thanks for playing.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 9:41pm | #

Nash, and what do you think the cost will be to the US Taxpayer if Islamo-Fascists strike again, maybe a dirty bomb in Houston, Chicago or Las Vegas?

How much is a few hundred thousand American lives worth?

Pacifism is as good as telling the Terrorists: "We're weak, we won't fight back, here are the keys to our country... Do as you wish."

The French tried that approach a few times. Didn't work out too well for them.

And I'm sure there were some French taxpayers in the 1910s, 20s, and 30s, who were saying the exact same thing you are today: "What about the costs of building up our Military to fight against the Germans to the French taxpayers?"

Comprenez vous?

Cesar | November 19, 2007, 9:44pm | #

And I'm sure there were some French taxpayers in the 1910s, 20s, and 30s, who were saying the exact same thing you are today: "What about the costs of building up our Military to fight against the Germans to the French taxpayers?"

Actually, they spent millions upon millions of txpayer francs on a worthless, inefficent monstrosity known as the Maginot Line which completely failed to stop the Germans from advancing.

And trust me, the f-22 raptor would be about as effective at stopping a group of terrorists with a dirty bomb as the Maginot Line was at stopping German Panzers.

If you think France had low defense spending in the 1930s, you're historically illiterate pal.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 9:45pm | #

Tina, if you think Ron Paul is authentic, you don't know the man very well.

I worked for him as his Top Personal Aide for nearly 12 years. During that time, I watched him go from being a diehard Libertarian Party member to a Buchananite (1992), to a "Bush Republican" (1996), to a leftist populist conspiratorialist (post 2001).

Ron Paul has more stripes than two Zebras in heat.

I liked the 1996 Ron Paul. The current version of RP is doing a great disservice to the Libertarian Republican movement, by making us all seem like a bunch of ghoulie-eyed wierdos.

Eric Dondero | November 19, 2007, 9:46pm | #

Okay, what's your point Cesar?

Are you then advocating surrender?

You say that to build up our Military to fight back against Radical Islam is not the answer. Then what is? Capitulation?

iih | November 19, 2007, 9:52pm | #

Comprenez vous?

Oh la la... Monsieur Dondero parle en français!

Monsieur Dondero, vous ne faites pas

Cesar | November 19, 2007, 9:53pm | #

Okay, what's your point Cesar?

My point is (a) you shouldn't use historical analogies when you're wholly ignorant of history, and (b) spending more money doesn't automatically buy you protection of you spend it on wasteful, ineffective projects. I guess you didn't get that in the last post.

You say that to build up our Military to fight back against Radical Islam is not the answer.

More money for Boeing, Lockheed Martin and other military contractors isn't the answer. Perhaps, re-allocating money towards emergency services so we will be resiliant and bounce back quickly if another attack comes is. Building more stealth bombers isn't going to stop attacks from happening in the future, Eric. We could, however, focus on using law enforcement and on recovery if another attack happens.

sage | November 19, 2007, 9:55pm | #

Pacifism is as good as telling the Terrorists: "We're weak, we won't fight back, here are the keys to our country... Do as you wish."

Maybe you should tell our military personnel. You know, most of whom have donated to Dr. Paul? Maybe they feel that they should not fight and die trying to exterminate people that aren't worth a hair on their ass, but feel it's worth it to fight them if they try to come here.

It's worth pointing out, once again, that a non-interventionist policy will likely cause terrorist fundraising to dry up.

iih | November 19, 2007, 9:56pm | #

Damn html tags...

Comprenez vous?

Oh la la... Monsieur Dondero parle en français!

Monsieur Dondero, vous ne faites pas des excuses!

Marc Scott Emery | November 19, 2007, 9:57pm | #

Mayor Giuliani had 283,000 New Yorkers arrested (many jailed overnight for one night minimum) in his 8 year term for marijuana-related offenses, up from 84,000 in the previous 8 years of NYC administration (when non-libertarians Koch & Dinkins were Mayor).

Giuliani has said he will accelerate even those draconian arrest rates once he is President. Giuliani has boasted on the campaign trail, " No one has had more drug users arrested than me. " This is a record and a boast of authoritarianism, or despotism. This is not libertarian in any way whatsoever, certainly not "mainstream libertarianism".

By contrast Ron Paul said he would repeal the entire federal war on drugs, end the Drug Czar's office, terminate the DEA, respect states rights on medical marijuana & industrial hemp. Ron Paul has promised to pardon the pot people, end mandatory sentencing, and is promising, as his 10 term Congressional voting record validates PERFECTLY & CONSISTENTLY, to be completely libertarian in his policies and philosophy regarding personal drug use. He has promised to uphold the Constitution, none of which empowers the US federal government to wage a drug war, or regulate drugs in any way.

Giuliani has not been endorsed by any well known or recognized libertarians for this Presidential election. A person who recommends Giuliani, who has no libertarian tendencies, is ergo, themselves not a libertarian. If Hilary Clinton endorsed a tax cut, does this make her libertarian? Good grief, no.

Eric Dondero is an angry, vicious racist (you should hear the filth he spewed against peaceful US Muslim citizens on his radio show where I was unfortunately a guest who had to hear this cruel invective) with the most deviated idea of libertarianism I have ever beheld. His shilling for Israel is the real reason he supports Giuliani, that and his admiration for a Mussolini-type strongman who promises to annihilate the Islamic world with militarism.

iih | November 19, 2007, 10:00pm | #

Okay, what's your point Cesar?

Are you then advocating surrender?

You say that to build up our Military to fight back against Radical Islam is not the answer. Then what is? Capitulation?


Eric, they called the defense (not the offense department for a reason). Build the wildest, most sophisticated, badest defense system in the world and those terrorist bastards will never be able to harm this country. By going to them we fulfill their wildest dreams of portraying themselves as the defenders of the "ummah". Hence, they recruit more and we only end up with more terrorists!

SIV | November 19, 2007, 10:01pm | #

Eric,


I'm aware of Hatch being "right" on a lot of issues but I have never seen a more frightening defense of the use of State power against individuals than he made on some PBS Frontline documentary.That SOB is pure evil (and I'm one of those, much despised on H&R, "Right-Wing libertarians" ).

Does anyone recall what the piece was?
(I think it was done by Ofra Bikel)

Cesar | November 19, 2007, 10:03pm | #

and I'm one of those, much despised on H&R, "Right-Wing libertarians" ).

SIV, then maybe you could get it through Dondero's head why Giuliani is not a libertarian?

iih | November 19, 2007, 10:05pm | #

Marc:

Do you have a link for Dondero's alleged rant (see Dondero, I assume you are innocent until shown otherwise) against Muslim citizens? He's certainly cautious when I am around, except this one time here. He has not apologized yet!

Mike | November 19, 2007, 10:08pm | #

Dr. Paul is well positioned...

http://truthalert.net/Republican%20Presidential%20Candidate%20Rankings.htm

SIV | November 19, 2007, 10:21pm | #

IMO Giuliani is preferable to Hillary Edwards and Obama as well as Huckabee Romney and McCain but he is no libertarian and has shown no signs of even "leaning" that way. If Dondero wanted to make the case for a "leading" GOP candidate being "mains