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But Our War Crimes Were Heroic and Honorable

Hezbollah is angry about a new Human Rights Watch report that condemns the group's rocket attacks on civilians during last year's war with Israel. Since Hezbollah deliberately launched thousands of anti-personnel rockets into Israeli towns and bragged about doing so, it cannot very well deny that it committed war crimes. Instead, its leaders argue that Human Rights Watch should save its criticism for Israel, whose air attacks on Hezbollah targets in Lebanon killed far more civilians than Hezbollah's crappy rockets did.

But Human Rights Watch, which plans to release what will undoubtedly be a scathing report about Israel's conduct during the war next week, insists this is not a numbers game and that two wrongs don't make a right: Deliberate or indiscriminate attacks on civilians are always wrong. "The fact that more Israeli civilians didn't die is not a tribute to Hezbollah but a tribute to Israeli bomb shelters," says Sarah Leah Whitson, director of Human Rights Watch's Middle East and North Africa division. "The point we're making is that even though they say 'only 43 Israeli civilians were killed' that doesn't make it OK."

Israel's war with Hezbollah was disastrous in several ways, not least because of the many innocent people it killed. To the extent that the Israeli government could have reduced or avoided those deaths (by responding to Hezbollah's initial cross-border raid in a less dramatic fashion, for example), it is culpable for them. And even if the invasion and air campaign had made sense, there are reasons to question some of Israel's judgments about which targets to attack and how. But Israel was at least ostensibly attacking legitimate military targets and inadvertently killing civilians in the process, as opposed to deliberately targeting civilians, which strikes me as an important moral distinction. To put it another way, the IDF considers killing civilians a mark of shame, while Hezbollah wears it like a badge of honor, which is why its leaders are dismayed by the criticism from Human Rights Watch.

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Comments to "But Our War Crimes Were Heroic and Honorable":

Dan T. | August 31, 2007, 11:07am | #

You gotta love the rationalizing power of modern human beings. We've actually come up with "acceptable" ways of inflicting mass destruction and death against either other.

The whole concept of war crimes is BS. There is no "important moral distinction" between killing soldiers and civilians - aside from the way it soothes the conscience.

StupendousMan | August 31, 2007, 11:15am | #

"There is no "important moral distinction" between killing soldiers and civilians"

I'm sorry but that's crazy talk.

So if I'm attacked by an armed robber it's ok to shoot you to show him I mean business?

Warren | August 31, 2007, 11:17am | #

But Israel was at least ostensibly attacking legitimate military targets and inadvertently killing civilians in the process, as opposed to deliberately targeting civilians, which strikes me as an important moral distinction.

And right there is where you lose all credibility in my eyes. Israel's disregard for all Palestinians is every bit as contemptible as Hezbollah's honor in killing. While your two wrongs don't make a right point is valid, never the less, Israel's overwhelming military capabilities, their willingness to use them, and the resulting numbers of casualties, places the greater culpability at their feet. As opposed to the struggling resistance against an oppressive regime.

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 11:20am | #

I'd still like Israel to explain how bombing the hell out of Beirut accomplished anything when their enemy was at the other end of the country!

Rickm | August 31, 2007, 11:20am | #

Didn't the US media pornographically display a "body count" during the vietnam war?

de stijl | August 31, 2007, 11:21am | #

So if I'm attacked by an armed robber it's ok to shoot you to show him I mean business?

This is a remarkably apt analogy to a certain situation that happened in September a few years back and our response to that event.

Game Show Host | August 31, 2007, 11:23am | #

Answer: There is no "important moral distinction" between killing soldiers and civilians - aside from the way it soothes the conscience.

Question: What is the most likely comment from a snivelling troll regarding moral justification?

StupendousMan | August 31, 2007, 11:24am | #

Warren,

Jeez, have you been taking an agitprop creative writing course?

Dan T. | August 31, 2007, 11:26am | #

I'm sorry but that's crazy talk.

So if I'm attacked by an armed robber it's ok to shoot you to show him I mean business?


I'm saying that if you decide to declare war on a country, you're saying that you're going to do whatever you have to do in order to bend that country to your will. Coming up with moral rules for attacking a group is rationalization.

Also, sometimes there is a strategic reason to kill "civilians" - today's citizen is tomorrow's solider, for example. Plus, the line is often very vague. Is someone who works in a factory that produces fighter jets a civilian or part of the military?

StupendousMan | August 31, 2007, 11:26am | #

de stijl,

Which response? Invading Afghanistan?

de stijl | August 31, 2007, 11:28am | #

StupendousMan,

The one after Afghanistan.

StupendousMan | August 31, 2007, 11:32am | #

"...whatever you have to do"

Well then Israel should use tac nukes.

~Dan | August 31, 2007, 11:32am | #

Also, sometimes there is a strategic reason to kill "civilians" - today's citizen is tomorrow's solider, for example.

You are so full of shit.

Plus, the line is often very vague. Is someone who works in a factory that produces fighter jets a civilian or part of the military?

Civilian casualities from strategic bombing of a factory is not equivalent in any way to civilian deaths from indescriminent shelling of residential areas.

Go away Dan, you have worn out your welcome.

highnumber | August 31, 2007, 11:36am | #

I think I'm with Dan T. on this one. War is war is war is killing people is murder. Just because the guy or gal doing the killing or getting killed is in a uniform, that doesn't make it morally purer. It's not better because the intentions of a state are behind it.

Episiarch | August 31, 2007, 11:41am | #

There is a kernel of truth to what Dan says.

If you attack an enemy/country/area, you are going to do damage. That's war. You cannot expect perfection in terms of civilian/non-civilian casualty ratios. And for people to expect perfection is asinine.

That being said, those who attempt--within reasonable limits--to reduce those ratios and have the minimum number or non-combatant casualties can be viewed as trying to take a more moral approach.

However, nothing changes the fact that WAR=DEATH. The kernel of truth in Dan's statement is that no matter what you do to reduce civilian casualties, you're still killing people.

That's why you don't get involved in war if you can at all help it.

Rick Barton | August 31, 2007, 11:43am | #

From the HRW report that Jacob linked:

"Human Rights Watch said that in some instances Israel located its own fixed and mobile military assets in or near civilian areas of northern Israel..."

You can pretty much rest assured that FOX news won't mention this bit if they report on the HRW report.

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 11:43am | #

Dan T, et al.

Again, China does not own most or even a large amount of our national debt.

When politicians talk about the scary mainland Chinese controlling our economy, its demagoguery of the first order.

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 11:44am | #

Whoops, wrong thread.

Dan T. | August 31, 2007, 11:45am | #

What I'm trying to get across is that war is an amoral exercise. You do whatever you have to do to win. If you think that killing enemy civilians is going to help you win, you do it.

Also remember that it's only a "war crime" if you lose. Nobody can enforce war crime punishments on the winner.

kohlrabi | August 31, 2007, 11:48am | #

Hi#,

"War is war is war is killing people is murder."

Um, no. Killing people is not necessarily murder despite your confusing the two.

kohlrabi | August 31, 2007, 11:50am | #

Dan T,

So if you find yourself at war, don't waste time, whip out the nukes. It's all the same, right?

robc | August 31, 2007, 11:51am | #

Nobody can enforce war crime punishments on the winner.

A 3rd party with more military might than the winner can.

Dan T. | August 31, 2007, 11:53am | #

Dan T,

So if you find yourself at war, don't waste time, whip out the nukes. It's all the same, right?


That was our strategy to finish off WWII, and it seemed to work pretty well. Despite the hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths involved.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocting overkill. No need to use nukes when less drastic measures will do the job. But the main reason we never really went to war with the Russians was the mutual knowledge that both sides were willing to use nukes despite our alleged moral qualms about killing civilians.

Dan T. | August 31, 2007, 11:56am | #

A 3rd party with more military might than the winner can.

That's true, I suppose. But traditionally I believe the concept of war crime has been used by the winners to punish the losers.

highnumber | August 31, 2007, 11:57am | #

kohlrabi,
Sorry. I do, of course, make a distinction between murder and self-defense. I also believe that this distinction is often intentionally blurred by states when they choose to wage war.

de stijl | August 31, 2007, 11:59am | #

I would have gone with "But our war crimes are cheeky and fun."

Rick Barton | August 31, 2007, 12:00pm | #

From the NYT story that Jacob linked:

"More than 1,200 Lebanese, most of them civilians, and 128 Israelis, many of them soldiers, were killed in the monthlong war."

Rick Barton | August 31, 2007, 12:16pm | #

As Jacob pointed out, the lack of Israeli civilian casualties has more to do with bomb shelters than it does careful Hezbollah aiming. Actually, Hezbollah's unsophisticated weaponry doesn't afford much careful aiming anyway, does it?

Ryo | August 31, 2007, 12:23pm | #

War is hell. That's why I fully support banning war. Instead, we should resolve all conflicts by one-on-one battles between giant robots, piloted by "jox".

Mr. Nice Guy | August 31, 2007, 12:27pm | #

Hizbollah's views and actions concerning HRW are disgraceful. Long time readers of H&R know I oppose Israel's 1967 war gains and occupation, and vehemently opposed their actions against Lebanon. They were disgraceful. But the idea that two wrongs don't make a right is exactly what makes me condemn Israel's actions, it's Israels fanatical supporters who make this argument ("well they started it so we get to blow up everything we want and keep anything we take now" seems to be their ethical principle). Hizbollah are a bunch of authoritarian jerks who often commit what amounts to war crimes, and they acted in line with what they are during the recent fighting.
Now as to this comment:
"But Israel was at least ostensibly attacking legitimate military targets and inadvertently killing civilians in the process, as opposed to deliberately targeting civilians, which strikes me as an important moral distinction." That is dubious at best. Israel's attacks were way over the top and caused a far disporpportionate amount of civilian deaths as well as infrastructure damage. And Israel had far better weaponry which could give them more precision, so they certainly have no excuse. Of course, one can't blame Jacob for kowtowing, as those who criticize Israel often find themselves punished by it's fanatical supporters:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/11/arts/11depa.htmlex=1339214400&en=ed585a1989381dc7&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
I also disagree with Dan T. There is a moral difference in killing a combatant. The combatant is at least ostensibly engaged in trying to harm you and your nation, and the civilian is less able to fight back and protect him or herself. In the case of the Lebanese fighting I could add that many of the civilians killed had little or nothing to do with Hizbollah (in fact many probably were aligned with rivals of it, just another reason why Israel's actions were so senseless and immoral).

Rick Barton | August 31, 2007, 12:29pm | #

Jacob:

...attacking legitimate military targets and inadvertently killing civilians in the process, as opposed to deliberately targeting civilians, which strikes me as an important moral distinction.

It seems a critical moral distinction. Thankfully, Hezbollah isn't getting any of our tax money. Too bad the Israeli government is.

Trollaphile | August 31, 2007, 12:37pm | #

Game Show Host | August 31, 2007, 11:23am | #

Answer: There is no "important moral distinction" between killing soldiers and civilians - aside from the way it soothes the conscience.

Question: What is the most likely comment from a snivelling troll regarding moral justification?

Gimme time and I will come up with a better one.

Doctor Duck | August 31, 2007, 12:40pm | #

For anyone who sees little difference between killing soldiers and civs -- does that mean that you consider yourself a legitimate target for Iraqis?

Finkelstein | August 31, 2007, 12:41pm | #

Hezbollah = civilians when they aren't holding weapons.

Thomas Paine's Goiter | August 31, 2007, 12:42pm | #

A,

But three lefts do.

Saying that caused the last big whippin' that I ever got from my dad.

Ahhh, memories.

Trollaphile | August 31, 2007, 12:47pm | #

"For anyone who sees little difference between killing soldiers and civs -- does that mean that you consider yourself a legitimate target for Iraqis?"

Does the fact that we are a democracy, and have elected the government that had invaded Iraq have relevance? Lets face it, we are responsable for the Iraq situation. Our elected leaders send our troops and pay for it with our tax dollars.

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 12:48pm | #

An expansionist ethnic democracy vs. a terrorist group from sectarian democracy.

I'll take none of the above, thanks.

Doctor Duck | August 31, 2007, 12:59pm | #

Does the fact that we are a democracy, and have elected the government that had invaded Iraq have relevance?

No. I'm simply asking if those who hold that view think it works both ways.

The citizens of Iraq had no such choice, after all.

Rick Barton | August 31, 2007, 1:06pm | #

Thomas Paine's Goiter:

Saying that caused the last big whippin' that I ever got from my dad. Ahhh, memories.

Well, I was a "Spock child" (as in Dr. Spock). My sister and I were never spanked or hit in any manner, or even yelled at-Just talked to, and talked and talked and talked...

edna | August 31, 2007, 1:14pm | #

An expansionist ethnic democracy

given the massive shrinkage over the past 40 years, they seem to be pretty shitty at expansionism.

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 1:18pm | #


given the massive shrinkage over the past 40 years, they seem to be pretty shitty at expansionism.


I wouldn't call giving up the Gaza Strip "massive".

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 1:21pm | #

The "sectarian democracy" is supposed to be Hesbollah, although I wasn't aware that the Mullahs stood for election.

They do, Hezbollah has seats in Parliament.

I call it sectarian because the Parliament, cabinet, and President is apportioned according to religious factions.

Also, the census they use is a 30-40 year old one that vastly over-states the numbers of Christians and Sunnis and understates the numbers of Shias.

I think the folks in California, Texas, and Florida would be pretty pissed if the House of Representatives and the Electoral College was based on the 1960 census.

Dan T. | August 31, 2007, 1:22pm | #

For anyone who sees little difference between killing soldiers and civs -- does that mean that you consider yourself a legitimate target for Iraqis?

I guess I'm saying that it matters not.

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 1:24pm | #

And I mean Lebanon, not Hezbollah.

edna | August 31, 2007, 1:33pm | #

I wouldn't call giving up the Gaza Strip "massive".

you might be conveniently forgetting a minor bit of desert called "sinai." that's ok, i'll meet you for drinks at sharm el sheikh.

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 1:36pm | #

Edna-

Do you have any objections to Israel living completely within its pre-1967 borders and sharing Jerusalem?

StupendousMan | August 31, 2007, 1:51pm | #

"Do you have any objections to Israel living completely within its pre-1967 borders and sharing Jerusalem?"

These types of questions get to me. Do you actually think attacks against Israel would cease?

Why should Israel act in a way that makes them more vulnerable? To make critics with no real stake in the matter happy?

edna | August 31, 2007, 1:51pm | #

c- sharing with whom? the same guys who barred all jewish entry pre-'67? why '67 and not '49? or '19? or some other magic date? 1066? what's magic about the cease-fire lines established when jordan and egypt occupied gaza and the west bank?

my own impractical idealism notwithstanding, i would think that a better solution is to cede most of the west bank, incorporate jerusalem and the contiguous suburbs, then cede some '49-'67 israeli territory to make the sums add up to 100%.

anything the palestinian arabs get is a gain, since they have not ruled themselves since... umm.... ever.

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 2:07pm | #

These types of questions get to me. Do you actually think attacks against Israel would cease?

No. Are they ceasing now even with the occupation?

Withdraw, and if they attacks really get that much worse (I doubt they would, Palestinians seem more content to fight with each other) they go back in.

c- sharing with whom?

A Palestinian state.

I didn't ask if the borders were logical,
I asked what would be the objection to it?

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 2:09pm | #


my own impractical idealism notwithstanding, i would think that a better solution is to cede most of the west bank, incorporate jerusalem and the contiguous suburbs, then cede some '49-'67 israeli territory to make the sums add up to 100%.


So, you exchange a city that is very important to many Palestinians for pieces of desert?

Rick Barton | August 31, 2007, 2:10pm | #

Aresen:

Now THAT's cruelty. I bet they tried to reason with you, too. Used the Socratic method. You poor kid!

Exactly! You too? Transgressions would require a conversation about why what I did was a wrong thing to do. To demonstrate that I understood, they would end wih me either giving a little talk or answering question on the type of transgression involved.


It was asking a lot for an 8 y/o kid to explain all the property rights and water damage ramifications germane to putting his little sister's toy oven into the swimming pool before he could go out and play again.

As I had no experience with corporal punishment, I remember one time I saw a friend get spanked by his Mom and it freaked ME out!

edna | August 31, 2007, 2:15pm | #

So, you exchange a city that is very important to many Palestinians for pieces of desert?

yes. it's not like there's no place in the west bank important to israelis. and if "important to many palestinians" is the critereon, then all of israel must be ceded, n'est ce pas?

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 2:18pm | #

yes. it's not like there's no place in the west bank important to israelis. and if "important to many palestinians" is the critereon, then all of israel must be ceded, n'est ce pas?

The West Bank is by far majority Palestinian. The pre-1967 borders are by far majority Jewish. Thats why I say 1967 borders.

I'm not familiar with the demographics of Jerusalem, but I bet the numbers of Palestinians and Israelis are pretty close.

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 2:19pm | #

And I'd be willing to bet West Jerusalem is majority Jewish, East Jerusalem majority Arab.

Tacos mmm... | August 31, 2007, 2:48pm | #

I think so. The civilian is unarmed and defenseless. The soldier is armed, trained, and attempting to kill the one who kills him.
Except, sometimes the conscript is a scared 18 year old kid who'll be shot if he doesn't join up, shot if he retreats and shot if he tries to surrender. And insurgent fighters, even if they're bloodthirsty and armed to the teeth, are civilians.

Soldier/civilian is a legal designation, not a moral one.

Syloson of Samos | August 31, 2007, 2:51pm | #

To put it another way, the IDF considers killing civilians a mark of shame...

It is against the official rules of course, but given the corrosive nature of war it may not be that big of a deal to the average Israeli soldier.

Anyway, I personally don't buy into either group's story about themselves. Then again, I am a rather cynical person.

joe | August 31, 2007, 3:06pm | #

Thugs like Hezbollah - and ones who think that they and their wars are annointed by God - always respond to criticism by human rights groups (ICRC, AI, HRW) by saying they should have criticized their enemies instead.

So, how are Baghram, Gitmo, and Abu Ghraib doing, anyway?

joe | August 31, 2007, 3:10pm | #

When Israel deliberately takes down a multistory building with a couple dozen occupied housing units in it, because there are military targets in the basement, that's not the accidental killing of civilians. When they respond to criticism with, "Hey, that's what they get for putting the missile tubes in the basement," they make it clear that the civilian deaths were intended to teach a lesson.

Anyone think it would be good, clean, honorable soldiering to drop a skyscraper in Manhattan that houses an Army recruiting office on the ground floor?

prolefeed | August 31, 2007, 3:11pm | #

I'm saying that if you decide to declare war on a country, you're saying that you're going to do whatever you have to do in order to bend that country to your will.

Dan T., there is a difference between declaring war because the other side bombed Pearl Harbor, and declaring war because (insert snarky Iraq reference here). Yeah, yeah, FDR tried to provoke the attack, but fighting back is not the same as picking the fight.

joe lite | August 31, 2007, 3:11pm | #

So, how are Baghram, Gitmo, and Abu Ghraib doing, anyway?

Uh, prosecutions and prison sentences.

Of course, not for anyone with real authority.

joe | August 31, 2007, 3:18pm | #

joe lite,

You do know that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the Red Cross have all found torture being frequently used in all three of those military prisons, right?

Did you manage not to know that, or do you just not care?

Hey, they're just biased against the US. Why don't they ever criticize Cuba and Iraq?

prolefeed | August 31, 2007, 3:25pm | #

"For anyone who sees little difference between killing soldiers and civs -- does that mean that you consider yourself a legitimate target for Iraqis?"

Does the fact that we are a democracy, and have elected the government that had invaded Iraq have relevance? Lets face it, we are responsable for the Iraq situation. Our elected leaders send our troops and pay for it with our tax dollars.


We are not the government. The government is a gang of thugs who rob us and generally do immoral things with the proceeds. We don't voluntarily pay taxes -- we do it or else -- and we don't get to individually choose which of a selection of governments (Republican / Democrat / Libertarian / None) we will send our voluntary taxes to in return for the services we choose to subscribe to. Blaming us for the evil deeds of politicians is wrong, unless the particular "us" in question is someone who supported a particular politician because they knew they'd do the evil deed in question, and supported that bad act.

Don't buy into the big lie, and blame the victim.

joe lite | August 31, 2007, 3:28pm | #

joe, yes torture is being used by the US military. This has been widely critized by many in the US population (including many libertarians).
The publicity and criticism has resulted in the prosecution of many low-level military personel.

Clearly these prosecutions do not go far enough, but we can at least expect the practice of torture to end when the US population puts a new administration in place. This is what makes the US different than Cuba and Iraq.

joe lite | August 31, 2007, 3:30pm | #

Good-bye joe, I do not plan to think of you for the next four days.

de stijl | August 31, 2007, 3:36pm | #

joe lite,

You've defined your whole Hit&Run persona based on another commenter with whom you disagree. Don't you think that is kind of lame?

joe | August 31, 2007, 3:46pm | #

Better than Iraq and Cuba != Beyond criticism.

The publicity and criticism has resulted in the prosecution of many low-level military personel. != justice done, nor torture policies renounced.

BTW, there has never been a case brought against anyone at Gitmo for mistreating prisoners.

robc | August 31, 2007, 3:46pm | #

The civilian is unarmed and defenseless.

Speak for youself.

Mr. Nice Guy | August 31, 2007, 4:43pm | #

Edna et al
Do you think it is morally justified for one nation to occupy land and peoples they gained control over in a war, yes even in a defensive war, against their consent? I don't think you'd even consider that to be just if this were not Israel we were talking about.

Mr. nice guy | August 31, 2007, 4:45pm | #

If you attack me in the street, after I defeat you in self defense do I get to live in your house and tell your spouse and kids what to do?

André Kenji | August 31, 2007, 5:16pm | #

"To put it another way, the IDF considers killing civilians a mark of shame, "

It´s not.

Trollaphile | August 31, 2007, 5:21pm | #

"We are not the government."

Yes we are.

We put the government in place, we decide who is elected. The American people could all go and vote for a repeal of the income tax amendment. We could vote for a party that does not allow the millitary to be more than 10,000 people unless we are actually in a declared war. If you don't think we are still in charge do you vote, and if so why?

joe lite no more | August 31, 2007, 5:29pm | #

joe lite,

You've defined your whole Hit&Run persona based on another commenter with whom you disagree. Don't you think that is kind of lame?


Yes

Jammer | August 31, 2007, 5:39pm | #

When Israel deliberately takes down a multistory building with a couple dozen occupied housing units in it, because there are military targets in the basement, that's not the accidental killing of civilians.

True, though I think it is allowed under the Geneva Conventions.

When they respond to criticism with, "Hey, that's what they get for putting the missile tubes in the basement," they make it clear that the civilian deaths were intended to teach a lesson.

But is it a bad lesson? Is it an immoral act?

The Curse of Lono | August 31, 2007, 5:41pm | #

Not quite sure if this point has already been raised (I'm frankly too lazy to check), but there is an important distinction between the military and civilians. Civilians don't ask to be put in danger; soldiers, to some degree, (especially volunteer forces) do when they sign up. Or at least they realize that they may have to face the possibility of losing their lives because of their profession.

joe | August 31, 2007, 5:52pm | #

Mr. Niceguy,

Do you think it is morally justified for one nation to occupy land and peoples they gained control over in a war, yes even in a defensive war, against their consent?

Well, no, but sometimes it just sorta happens. Israel found itself in control of the land it overran when it counter-attacked countries that hat attacked it, or pre-empted attacks from forces massed on their border. The U.S. found itself in control of the Phillipines and Puerto Rico that same way - except in our case, the military threat wasn't even that real.

That's the thing about empire - it can creep up on you, without you even desiring or being aware of it. And then it becomes tough to know what to do next.

This is why we need to make a conscious effort to avoid becoming an empire; why the preceding statement was made without the slightest note of denunciation about the goodness of the United States; and why responding to the charge that a certain policy or war is imperialistic by noting the United States is not an evil, enslaving country misses the point so badly.

edna | August 31, 2007, 6:44pm | #

Do you think it is morally justified for one nation to occupy land and peoples they gained control over in a war, yes even in a defensive war, against their consent?

there's some complex issues of philosophy there. i don't do philosophy, it gives me the shpulkies.

but do please remember, the inhabitants of the west bank and gaza have never had consensual government. the land was occupied by jordan and egypt, before that by britain, before that by turkey... and though i know that you will strongly disagree with this, the israelis would love to figure out a way not to be occupying the west bank (other than jerusalem), but still be able to maintain reasonable security for its citizens. as joe correctly implies and their actions vis a vis egypt and the aborted clinton accords demonstrate, there is no great desire among israelis and their government for empire.

as to your second question, you'd be wrong. i have certainly been vocal here about the immorality of the occupation of kurdistan and how badly those people have been screwed by the iraqis and turks.

highnumber | August 31, 2007, 7:04pm | #

When they respond to criticism with, "Hey, that's what they get for putting the missile tubes in the basement," they make it clear that the civilian deaths were intended to teach a lesson.

But is it a bad lesson? Is it an immoral act?
Yes and yes

edna | August 31, 2007, 7:08pm | #

areson, exactly. the hard-core occupationists, despite the volume of newsprint devoted to them, are an extremely small and unpopular minority there, even within likud.

joe | August 31, 2007, 7:55pm | #

edna,

as joe correctly implies and their actions vis a vis egypt and the aborted clinton accords demonstrate, there is no great desire among israelis and their government for empire.

Let's be accurate here - there is no great desire among most Israelis for empire. There is a significant minority - a minority large enough to occasionally control the government, as under Ariel Sharon - who believe that it is their birthright as Jews and Israel's right and duty as the Jewish state to grab and settle a little empire in the "Biblical Land of Israel." There most certainly is a purposeful imperialist mindset among the settler movement.

Now, these loons most certainly are not all Israelis, or even most of them - despite what their stateside apologists claim.

joe | August 31, 2007, 7:58pm | #

...which, I see, is a point you already made.

Well.

All right then.

Mr. Nice Guy | August 31, 2007, 8:00pm | #

Edna
That the inhabitants of the occupied territories were under non-consensual governments is only relevant if Israel gave them a consensual government asap. They did and have not, and so you have two wrongs again and no rights (Jordan and Syria not letting the inhabitants have a voice in government [I think all the non-democratic governments in the Middle East, and elsewhere, are non-legitimate]) and Israel militarily occupying and ruling the inhabitants without their consent). So Israel is just in the wrong. I see what joe is saying, Israel did not just launch an attack and take these lands, it was complicated and they suddenly had them, and they have these very legitimate security concerns. But we still have a wrong, a plain out wrong, though one where we can better sympathize with the wrongdoer. Can you not just say it's wrong to occupy a people militarily without their consent, even if the conquest came in a defensive war? I think you know it is, you just (rightly) think Israel is an unusually sympathetic wrongdoer here and perhaps (wrongly) feel that any criticism of Israel will be bad.
Of course most Israeli's are decent people and they don't want to plunder the Middle East or the world. But I do think there are more people over there, especially policy makers, who currently and historically saw the occupations as possible "opportunities." The whole "facts on the ground" actions suggest that...

prolefeed | August 31, 2007, 8:01pm | #

Do you think it is morally justified for one nation to occupy land and peoples they gained control over in a war, yes even in a defensive war, against their consent?

That is arguably how almost every nation on earth came into being. Nations are generally formed at the point of a sword or gun, over the severe objections of some of the populace.

Mr. Nice Guy | August 31, 2007, 8:06pm | #

Let me add something. I know that some people are reluctant to criticize Israel because they feel it will feed anti-Semitism. I think that it may, but we cannot let fear of anti-Semites keep us from recognizing immoral behavior in an ally that we are materially supporting (I also think NOT criticizing Israel feeds more anti-Semites). I also think that those who criticize Israel, but not China over Tibet or Turkey over Kurdistan are suspect (I am strongly opposed to those as well). I also think it should be obvious that Israel is a democracy with civil liberties unheard of in that region, and in that sense they are akin to us and deserve a special place in our hearts and maybe policy.
But their occupation of the post-1967 lands is immoral and illegal and we should exert whatever pressure we can responsibly to end it. And I think that is way more than we have done.

prolefeed | August 31, 2007, 8:15pm | #

"We are not the government."

Yes we are.

We put the government in place, we decide who is elected. The American people could all go and vote for a repeal of the income tax amendment. We could vote for a party that does not allow the millitary to be more than 10,000 people unless we are actually in a declared war. If you don't think we are still in charge do you vote, and if so why?


Trollaphile -- you're using the collective "we" on an individualist website. Check your premises, and try replacing "we" with "I" throughout your post and see if it still makes sense. I didn't put the government in place, other people did. Virtually no politician will consider proposing repealing the income tax, although a substantial portion of the populace supports that. With the exception of Ron Paul, I can pretty much guarantee that no politician on the next ballot I pull will support a smaller military. I will leave most of my ballot blank, because there will be no one there who represents my viewpoint. My blank votes -- my statement that no one running is fit to take office -- will not be counted, even if the blank votes exceed the number cast. I vote to protest having a government that rules without my consent, and that is not based on voluntary subscriptions.

The government is composed of politicians, not the voters or non-voters, almost always elected by a process where the overwhelming majority of the people eligible to vote did not vote for them. "We" are not the government. That is the big lie that statists use to justify their theft and tyranny.

edna | August 31, 2007, 9:51pm | #

a minority large enough to occasionally control the government

let's be clear, joe- because of the really dysfunctional parliamentary system of the knesset, "large enough" means 3-4%. the popular support for the religious wackos there is extremely small, thank goodness.

mng, you use so many buzzwords and fuzzy terms that i have trouble responding adequately. let's go at some of the more specific bits.

Can you not just say it's wrong to occupy a people militarily without their consent, even if the conquest came in a defensive war?

often yes, but not always. it's very unusual that a military occupation is defensive, i'll grant you, but unusual does not equal impossible.

perhaps (wrongly) feel that any criticism of Israel will be bad.

i would challenge you to find anything i've written here to support that statement. i strongly disagree with many of israel's policies, but to be fair, i'm not the one out there with several million people who want me dead. i'm safely in napa valley where there are very few fundamentalist muslims, so have the luxury to armchair quarterback. and my loyalties are to the usa, the country which generously took in my family and saved them from death at the hands of europeans, so when israel's policies conflict with america's best interests, i tend to be more than a bit biased in favor of the home team.

But I do think there are more people over there, especially policy makers, who currently and historically saw the occupations as possible "opportunities."

the record does not support this. "land for peace" has worked when the people to whom the land is ceded intend peace. and when sufficient bribes are paid, of course. unfortunately, we're the ones paying those bribes.

i still favor the "edna plan" for that region. i also favor a whole lot less attention by the world- it's astonishing to me that a petty regional spat involving an astonishingly small proportion of that region's land area and population can generate so much attention and hot air.

Bob Smith | August 31, 2007, 10:51pm | #


Anyone think it would be good, clean, honorable soldiering to drop a skyscraper in Manhattan that houses an Army recruiting office on the ground floor?
If (for example) NY and NJ were at war, and the NY office was shelling NJ, then NJ has the right to take it out, civilians be damned. Israel wasn't destroying every multistory building with a basement that could be used to store weapons, it was destroying buildings that were also being used as firebases to launch artillery into Israel. Any "civilians" that are still around are either Hezbollah agents without uniforms (so their deaths exaggerate civilian death statistics), civilians cooperating with Hezbollah by acting as "human shields" or providing other material support, civilians coerced into acting as human shields, or civilians too stupid to realize that firebases are military targets or too arrogant to believe that mere Jews would kill them. Only the the third get any sympathy from me.

Cesar | August 31, 2007, 11:11pm | #

i still favor the "edna plan" for that region. i also favor a whole lot less attention by the world- it's astonishing to me that a petty regional spat involving an astonishingly small proportion of that region's land area and population can generate so much attention and hot air.

Well, we definitely agree on something then. I think its mostly because the religious fanatics--Jewish, Muslim, and even Christian that keep us focused on this tiny strip of desert near the Mediterranean.

And thats why I'm glad I'm an atheist!

Dave2 | September 1, 2007, 12:18am | #

I'll blame a citizen for the government s/he lives under just as soon as s/he has significant control over it.

And, no, voting doesn't count. Neither does wishing upon a star, casting spells, or thinking positive thoughts.

atrevete | September 1, 2007, 2:23am | #

(

Especially for aresen and Rick Barton)

One of the most obnoxious ideas in parenting is "I don't care who started it.." It TOTALLY matters who started it. I always asked my kids "Who hit first?" Because if you want to teach fairness to your kids this has to be crucial and important. Whoever hit first has the blame for whatever happened to him, short of being killed. And no, it doesn't matter if the person who hit first was smaller and weaker. If his big brother clobbered him, it was his own damn fault, he shouldn't have hit first.

In the larger, international sense, this is called "initiation of force". If you DON'T want your land occupied and infrastructure destroyed, it's very simple. DON'T INITIATE FORCE.

This is a very hard concept for those with an authoritarian bent to understand. Because they are totally used to initiating force within their own countries, families, etc. The Arab countries in 1967 thought that they could invade what they BELIEVED to be a weaker country, Israel, with impunity. They were soon shown differently. They got off lightly only losing territory.

wayne | September 1, 2007, 3:15am | #

When Israel deliberately takes down a multistory building with a couple dozen occupied housing units in it, because there are military targets in the basement, that's not the accidental killing of civilians. When they respond to criticism with, "Hey, that's what they get for putting the missile tubes in the basement," they make it clear that the civilian deaths were intended to teach a lesson.

Anyone think it would be good, clean, honorable soldiering to drop a skyscraper in Manhattan that houses an Army recruiting office on the ground floor?


Note to Joe: A missile launcher is rather more provocative than an Army recruitment office. Jeesh Joe, I keep making internal promises to not say mean things to you here and then you trot out something like this that is so fucking incredibly stupid.

You can go back to shilling for Saddam now.

wayne | September 1, 2007, 3:18am | #

One of the most obnoxious ideas in parenting is "I don't care who started it.." It TOTALLY matters who started it. I always asked my kids "Who hit first?" Because if you want to teach fairness to your kids this has to be crucial and important. Whoever hit first has the blame for whatever happened to him, short of being killed. And no, it doesn't matter if the person who hit first was smaller and weaker. If his big brother clobbered him, it was his own damn fault, he shouldn't have hit first.

I totally agree with this. "I don't care who started it..." should be rephrased, "fairness is of no concern and I am too busy make a just judgement on the matter..."

Mr. Nice Guy | September 1, 2007, 9:30am | #

Several people have started with the "I don't care who started it" business to be addressed by those who then say "it is important who started it, and it was the Arabs, so the deserve what they got" (or in the words of one commentator, they "got off lightly" in just having some lands occupied indefinitly). This is silly, for two reasons:
1. If you really want to go back to who "started it" you have to go back to the Zionist movements wacky dream of taking people and plopping them down half a world away in the midst of peoples of who were currently inhabiting the land. What the Zionists did was akin to what Jim Jones and his movement did in S. America, with the qualifier that the Zionists wanted to create their own little nation in the Middle East. Their historical connection to the land was ancient and their cultural connection to the land was negligible. It's hard not to be sympathetic to the Zionist dream considering the horrible treatment these people got at the hands of Euorpeans (and Africans and Arabs for that matter), but it really was wacky if you bracket it and look at it for what it entailed. It was bound to start trouble.
2. Again, as edna has helpfully pointed out, the people in the occupied territories had little say in their governments actions towards Israel. How in the world can it be justified for them and their descendants, including women, children, old men, etc., who had no part in hostilities towards Israel, to be occupied against their consent for decades? If Iraq somehow defeated us, would they be justified to occupy your hometown and tell you and your kids what to do for several decades? Would you go along with this occupation, or would you resist? And would it be helpful for the world to suggest that you just learn to accept some form of limited autnonmy and get along and stop making trouble?

edna-You're dancing around the issue. I suspect you're jewish and feel some solidarity with Israel here, and that's understandable, but a spade is a spade whether it is in the hands of a jewish or arab gardner. Again, is it justifiable to occupy a people against their consent, whether the occupation occurred in a defensive or offensive action? What in the world is "fuzzy" about these words or this rather plain question? I'm using occupation and consent in the usual, normal ways. I think you realize that its Israel's supporters arguments that are indeed fuzzy (like that its usually wrong but we need this security [of course the latter can never justify the former, the Soviets occupied the Warsaw Pact nations as a "security buffer;] or we keep trying to give back the land but they don't want it [all current offers have involved limited autonomy that few peoples could or should have to accept]).

edna | September 1, 2007, 9:49am | #

mng, please read my answer more carefully. i directly answered those specific questions. the fuzzy terms (e.g., "legitimate" "moral") were part of questions i didn't answer, just because i don't really know what the questions mean.

apparently, i did not make myself clear enough:

occupations are not usually defensive, but on rare occasions they are.

i'm not talking about occupations resulting from defensive wars, i'm talking about occupation as a defensive measure itself.

joe | September 1, 2007, 10:32am | #

Edna,

Ariel Sharon was not one of the "religious wackos," but he certainly was a "Jordan to the Sea" imperialist, and the Godfather of the "settler" movement. The imperialist, maximalist zionists make up quite a bit more than 3-4% of Israel's population - they make a majority of Likud, which comes into power fairly regularly. And the record most certainly does support the description of Sharon and rest of the settler movement as having seen the occupation as an opportunity.

joe | September 1, 2007, 10:33am | #

Bob Smith, wayne,

Well, you've certainly memorized your propaganda. Hezbollah was launching missiles from Beirut? You sure about that?

wayne, you can now go back to gaping at the bubble patterns in your drool puddle.

joe | September 1, 2007, 10:42am | #

You know, the "it does SO matter who started it" was made much more effectively by Yassir Arafat.

But barbarians just can't help themselves.

joe | September 1, 2007, 10:44am | #

edna,

For thoughtul and intelligent people - so, not wayne, for example - the last five years have been a dramatic lesson in how easily "defensive" can turn into "pre-emptive" can turn into "preventive" can turn into "imperialist."

edna | September 1, 2007, 10:52am | #

Ariel Sharon was not one of the "religious wackos," but he certainly was a "Jordan to the Sea" imperialist

his record as prime minister might lead one to a different conclusion. what was israel's occupied territory when he took office? what was it after? what was the area of settlements (excluding contiguous jerusalem suburbs) when he took office? what was it after? (i'll allow that my exclusion here is deliberate- imperialism and suburban sprawl are not the same thing to me, but i can understand different views)

i am apparently neither thoughtful nor intelligent. ;-)

joe | September 1, 2007, 10:57am | #

edna,

Knock off the revisionism - the record is just too long to ignore what a dramatic flip-flip he engaged in in the last few months of his life, and how despised he was among his former colleagues for doing so.

I'd thought you were trying to have an honest conversation, and now you're going to pretend you've never heard of Sharon's role as the founder of the settler movement, and his strategy of locating settlements to cut Palestintian towns off from each other in order to prevent the eventual formation of a state?

And, btw, if you "sprawl" into land you don't own and have no right to build on, that's called theft.

joe | September 1, 2007, 11:06am | #

Here, edna, let me jog your memory:

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.


Everyone there should move, should run, should grab more hills, expand the territory. Everything that's grabbed, will be in our hands. Everything we don't grab will be in their hands.

"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We'll insert a strip of Jewish settlement, right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years time, neither the United Nations, nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart."

-Ariel Sharon to Winston Churchill III in 1973.

wayne | September 1, 2007, 11:58am | #

"wayne, you can now go back to gaping at the bubble patterns in your drool puddle."

That's pretty funny, Joe!

Mr. Nice Guy | September 1, 2007, 12:02pm | #

"apparently, i did not make myself clear enough:

occupations are not usually defensive, but on rare occasions they are."

Obviously this is why you don't like philosophy, because you're not good at it. The question is not are occupations defensive (even this you misunderstand, I meant that they happen in the course of defensive actions), obviously sometimes they are. The question is, is it then just? Just to occupy and rule people without their consent (even if that occupation is done in your "defense")?
Yes or no? Could Russia occupy Estonia to feel more secure, or rather would you say it is just for them to do so?

Mr. Nice Guy | September 1, 2007, 12:06pm | #

You see edna, I start with a silly ethical principle, one that can be applied to all like situations: that it is morally and ehtically wrong to rule a people without their consent.
Is Israel not ruling the Palestinians? Of course they are. Have they consented to that rule? Of course they haven't. Then that rule is wrong. The fact that the rule resulted from a defensive military action, that some limited autnomony has been offered to the ruled at times, and that the rule is justified in the name of security makes it no less wrong.
OK, college football kickoff. Be back around halftime...

edna | September 1, 2007, 12:17pm | #

"just" is one of those fuzzy words.

i don't get the estonia analogy. estonia wasn't deeply, ethnically allied with a population surrounding russia, outnumbering the russians by a couple orders of magnitude, sworn to destroy russia, and lobbing missiles regularly into russian cities. i might feel different about the soviet control of estonia had all those things been true.

joe, could you answer my questions regarding sharon's actions as prime minister with regard to expansionism? did israel expand or contract? were there more or fewer legal settlements?

And, btw, if you "sprawl" into land you don't own

did jordan "own" that land? just askin'.

edna | September 1, 2007, 12:19pm | #

oh, and i should add that russia did not sieze estonia after a war that a country which included estonia fought (and lost) to destroy russia. and there actually was a country of "estonia" before the soviet occupation.

i'm really amazed at how bad that analogy is.

atrevete | September 1, 2007, 1:34pm | #

And, btw, if you "sprawl" into land you don't own it's called theft

Like Chavez is doing in Venezuela

Mr. Nice Guy | September 1, 2007, 1:45pm | #

The analogy was a hypothetical, one to test what ethical principle you support: is it just to occupy another people against their consent, even to secure yourself? By "just" I mean morally correct, how is that fuzzy to you? You think some things are right and wrong, don't you? So can you answer the question now?
BTW-Russia has always given the answer that its domination over the Warsaw pact nations is to "secure" itself, to give itself a "buffer zone" (remember that a Euorpean force actually did intervene militarily in Russia's affairs shortly after the Bolshevik Revolution and they were attacked and invaded in World War II). Many in the West did indeed swear to end Bolshevik rule in Russia, so they were worried...But let's not debate that, as my moral principle condemns the Soviet occupations as well as Israel's.
PS-I like how you "time travel" in your post. The lobbing of missles that you speak of, obviously referring to Hamas activity, occurred AFTER the occupation.

Mr. Nice Guy | September 1, 2007, 1:49pm | #

See edna, when people reason they usually have a general principle, like it is wrong to occupy a nation against its consent, and then they can apply it to particulars that fit within the principle. Obviously if it does not fit under the principle a different judgment must be made. I'm trying to discern your general principle on occupations, because I suspect, like most supporters of Israel's actions in this case, you find what they have done appalling if someone else did it. But they are this poor, beleagured minority so its ok for them (I don't mean those adjectives sarcastically btw, the jews are the most oppressed and hated people in the world both historically and currently; this does not though excuse their [the ones in Israel, and even there many are split as to the justness of the occupation] bad behavior in this instance any more than a person with a terrible childhood and unfortunate circumstances is justified in robbing someone at gunpoint).

edna | September 1, 2007, 2:38pm | #

no, i argue that they need to do it because the alternative, under the current circumstances, is their own death.

Neu Mejican | September 1, 2007, 3:42pm | #

were there more or fewer legal settlements?

More.
Next question.

Cesar | September 1, 2007, 3:45pm | #

Edna-

What kind of "security" has Israel gotten since they occupied the West Bank? It seems to me Israel is no more secure than they were in 1967, perhaps less so.

I don't understand why Israelis don't want to drop that strip of land like dead weight. Israel has the best military in the region, a good economy, and nuclear weapons. If the Palestinians try anything (again, they seem more content to fight each other anyway) I don't think Israel would have to do much to defeat them.

Neu Mejican | September 1, 2007, 3:52pm | #

Oops,

I meant more "settlers" not settlements...

Bopo | September 1, 2007, 5:40pm | #

" To the extent that the Israeli government could have reduced or avoided those deaths (by responding to Hezbollah's initial cross-border raid in a less dramatic fashion, for example), it is culpable for them. "

Give me a fucking break. That such a statement is widely accepted at all shows the breadth of anti-Israeli sentiment amongst those in the media. The only reason that so many died in Lebanon is because Hezbollah launches all of its attacks from civilian areas, disguised as civilians themselves. The whole "disproportionate force" canard needs to be laid to rest, unless you believe it is all right for terrorists to attack a sovereign nation with impunity.

Bopo | September 1, 2007, 5:41pm | #

"What kind of "security" has Israel gotten since they occupied the West Bank? It seems to me Israel is no more secure than they were in 1967, perhaps less so."

Remind me again of the major military assaults made on Israel since 1967.

Mr. Nice Guy | September 1, 2007, 5:56pm | #

Bopo-was there a major assault on Israel in 1967? There was certainly preparation for one, but Israel (probably rightly) attacked first. It was certainly the quick defeat of their Arab foes that dissuaded any further attacks from them (well, their subsequent development of nukes doesn't hurt either).
Edna- I guess I fail to see how in the world the occupation is providing "security." Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan certainly have the capacity to attack Israeli soil today just as they did pre-occupation. Does anyone care to dispute this? In fact, all that the occupation has done is create a group of non-state actors who are harder to deter who then attack with abandon (Hamas et al).
Anti-Israeli sentiment in the media? Bopo you must have access to some serious crack, or you're so fanatical that you think any media coverage short of Likud press releases is "biased against Israel." The whole idea of the disporportionate nature of the military action against Lebanon comes from...math. The staggering Lebanon death toll seems way out of whack with tragic but relatively minute results of the Hizbollah raid it was meant to rspond to. But more importantly was the nature of the bombing: many people killed and deprived of infrastructure in Lebanon were not only NOT Hizbollah, but were members of factions opposed to it! In addition the Lebanese government (one of the few democratic and cosmopolitan ones in the region) was the one undermined, not Hizbollah. Israel's actions were not just immoral, they were clumsy, stupid and couterproductive. They also btw struck an incredible blow to whatever credibility the US had left on this issue as we once again blindly supported them to the outrage of literally the entire world do you want a link to the UN debates at the time?).

edna | September 1, 2007, 5:58pm | #

What kind of "security" has Israel gotten since they occupied the West Bank? It seems to me Israel is no more secure than they were in 1967, perhaps less so.

really? egypt, jordan, syria, lebanon, and iraq all have troops massed, ready to invade?

you're a bright kid, cesar, but you need to get a little better sense of history.

Mr. Nice Guy | September 1, 2007, 6:03pm | #

You know edna, if you want an analogy let's try East Germany. Germany swore to destroy the Soviets (Hitler, though making the initial pact with Stalin, was quite vocal in his hatred for all things communist). He attacked them and their existence was very much at stake. The Russians then beat them. The Russians also were aware that the capitalist world bore them nothing but ill will (well, a great deal of this was paranoia on Russias part, but they are a people who are very touchy about security from foriegn invasion [see the Mongols]). In their eyes they faced a much wealthier numerically superior existential foe determined to destroy them, and they wanted a buffer zone "for security" (sound familiar?). They "occupied" East Germany for a period of time similar to what Israel has Palestine.
If the Russians had reason to believe this was in their security interest does that make what the German people endured just? I think not, but I guess you would have to say yes (unless you have, say, a double standard for Israel).

Cesar | September 1, 2007, 6:20pm | #

really? egypt, jordan, syria, lebanon, and iraq all have troops massed, ready to invade?



And Israel defeated all of them single-handedly even when it did not occupy the West Bank or Gaza.

Israel is many times more stronger than it was even 40 years ago today, and there is a peace treaty with Egypt and Jordan. Syria is the only one holding back, and it is hardly going to conduct a war on its own. Even if it did, Israel could defeat them in a week.

Cesar | September 1, 2007, 6:21pm | #

The only real threat I can see to Israel is Iran, and occupying the West Bank doesn't do much in that area.

In fact, it prevents the use of a very good tool--turning the Sunni groups (Hammas) against the Shia (Hizbollah) so they fight each other instead of Israel.

edna | September 1, 2007, 7:38pm | #

The only real threat I can see to Israel is Iran, and occupying the West Bank doesn't do much in that area.

fortunately for the israelis, you're not their defense minister.

And Israel defeated all of them single-handedly

to the surprise of everyone, including the israelis. i know, it all looks so obvious in the rear-view mirror.

Cesar | September 1, 2007, 7:41pm | #

Edna-

What on the West Bank is a threat exactly? Palestinian militias that are fighting other Palestinian militias? And how does sending fanatical settlers there help defeat them?

edna | September 1, 2007, 7:41pm | #

If the Russians had reason to believe this was in their security interest does that make what the German people endured just?

"just." you do like fuzzy, imprecise, subjective words.

i really don't think that russia viewed the occupation of east germany as an existential issue.

edna | September 1, 2007, 7:44pm | #

What on the West Bank is a threat exactly?

uhhh, several million people who want the israelis dead? and who will ally with whatever major power (e.g., iran, syria) who will arm them to try to accomplish this goal? whose territory cuts in so deep that there's only a need to drive an army about 10 miles to cut israel in half?

Cesar | September 1, 2007, 8:05pm | #

uhhh, several million people who want the israelis dead?

The crazy homeless guy two blocks away from me wants everyone in my city dead. Whether he has the means to accomplish that goal is another question.

and who will ally with whatever major power (e.g., iran, syria) who will arm them to try to accomplish this goal?

Syria as a major power? They're a joke and if Israel fought a war with them it would last about a week.

In 1948 I'd be very sympathetic to that argument. In 1967, a little less so but could still understand it. But in 2007, the gap between Israeli military power and Arab military power has grown so wide Israel can be perfectly safe with or without occupying the West Bank.

Again, when Israel withdrew from Gaza what happened? The Palestinians didn't invade Israel, they just ended up fighting each other.

Deny Arabs a common enemy and they have the political cohesion of a bucket of scorpions.

Cesar | September 1, 2007, 8:09pm | #

Edna, even if a military occupation were absolutely necessary for the security of Israel, how do settlers enter the equation?

Mr. Nice Guy | September 1, 2007, 8:45pm | #

Edna-I'm flumoxed as to why "just" is such a fuzzy concept to you. You don't consider what the Russians did to the East Germans wrong (unjust)? It seems easy to me. I'll bet you easily make moral judgments all the time. If someone told you the Holocaust was unjust would you say "I dunno, that 'just' is a fuzzy concept, so I'm going to reserve judgment." I'd bet you'd think that while what is or is not just is a difficult question sometimes and that while people will often come up with different answers that the Holocaust is plainly and surely unjust (kind of like what is or is not the square root of some monsterous number is a difficult question that will flumox some people, but there is a sure answer to the question). So don't be coy, you believe that some things are morally wrong and others morally right (just and unjust). And I bet you think that generally it is morally wrong (unjust) to occupy a people for decades even if you think it necessary for your "security." You just want to give Israel a pass. I'm not buying unless there is some morally relevant reason to, and I don't see one.
The Russians most certainly saw their occupation of Warsaw Pact nations as existential, in fact they still do (notice their strong opposition to NATO expansion). And Israel's security concerns (which are fairly obviously unrelated to occupying those strips of land and people as I noted above) do not justify their immoral occupation. And in your world seeing something as a security neccessity makes foriegn conquest and occupation right (or just or OK or something something for you I guess)... In my world that still does not justify their rule of the East Germans (hey you guys from the thread above, Germany attacked first, so they were lucky to get off as easy as occupation, eh?) or Israels of the Palestinians.

Mr. Nice Guy | September 1, 2007, 8:55pm | #

"i would think that a better solution is to cede most of the west bank, incorporate jerusalem and the contiguous suburbs, then cede some '49-'67 israeli territory to make the sums add up to 100%."
edna-this is from one your early posts above. Here you say that you think Israel should give up much of the occupied territories. You then say this about the occupation in a later post:

"i argue that they need to do it because the alternative, under the current circumstances, is their own death."

So on the one hand if Israel were to give up the occupied land it would mean "their own death", their is a grave need to occupy these lands. On the other you think they can afford to give up much of it to settle matters.

HUH?

prolefeed | September 1, 2007, 10:22pm | #

Deny Arabs a common enemy and they have the political cohesion of a bucket of scorpions.

And as long as Israel exists, they will have a common enemy ... not that they won't fight amongst themselves, too.

edna | September 1, 2007, 10:55pm | #

The Palestinians didn't invade Israel, they just ended up fighting each other.

putting aside the few thousand rockets launched from gaza into israel, of course. and one can certainly imagine that if a hamas government controlled their borders and could import better rockets, they'd stop using them.

mng, the context you miss is to whom the land is ceded and under what conditions. your analogies continue to suck, but i can't blame you for that, i don't think there really is a good contemporary analogy; this is so disfunctional as to be sui generis.

LordActon | September 2, 2007, 1:12am | #

mng and joe seem to want to gamble on how
nice the Palestinians will be if the Israelis
just gave up Judea and Samaria.

I guess their version of the drive by media
doesn't bother to report on the daily rocket
and motar fire coming from Gaza district.

Not that mng or joe would care. It's only
being aimed at Jews. And mng and joe don't
consider Jews to be human beings.