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Why I Oughtta'...

The junior senator from Virginia is already living up to expectations:
At a recent White House reception for freshman members of Congress, Virginia's newest senator tried to avoid President Bush. Democrat James Webb declined to stand in a presidential receiving line or to have his picture taken with the man he had often criticized on the stump this fall. But it wasn't long before Bush found him.

"How's your boy?" Bush asked, referring to Webb's son, a Marine serving in Iraq.

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," Webb responded, echoing a campaign theme.

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

"That's between me and my boy, Mr. President," Webb said coldly, ending the conversation on the State Floor of the East Wing of the White House.

Webb later said he "wanted to slug" Bush for his tone.  He then added that he didn't run for the senate to get a picture of himself with the president hanging on his wall. 

Amen to that.  Washington's version of the "ego wall" isn't degrees, awards, and newspaper clippings, but a collage of photos of one's self with people who wield political power, in descending order.  So that pic of you with Clinton at the MS fund raiser goes at the top.  The one with Rep. One-Termer at the bottom.  My general impression after seven years in this town is that there's a direct correlation between the size of one's ego wall and the overall loathesomeness of his personality.

Webb's economic populism leaves a lot to be desired.  But otherwise, I can't help but like the guy.  Not only did he refuse a photo with the most powerful man in the world, he sassed him, too.  Props, senator.

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Comments to "Why I Oughtta'...":

CharlesWT | November 29, 2006, 2:20pm | #

"Democrat James Webb declined to stand in a presidential receiving line or to have his picture taken with the man he had often criticized on the stump this fall."

Then, WTF was he doing there?

ed | November 29, 2006, 2:21pm | #

Yeah, why did he go?

John | November 29, 2006, 2:26pm | #

I think he is just being a jackass. If he really hates the President that much, then Charles and Ed are right, why did he go in the first place? Moreover, if he is there why does scoring points about Iraq prevent him from being polite? Why couldn't he have just said, "He is doing really well, but I am worried about him and I think we need to get him and those serving with him out of Iraq as soon as we can."? It is possible to make a point to someoen withtout being a complete and total asshole about it.

"Webb's economic populism leaves a lot to be desired. But otherwise, I can't help but like the guy."

That pretty much sums up the Reason staff these days. "We hate Bush so much that we can't help but like a guy who wants to enact every damaging nanny state economic policy we profess to be against. But we are not sell outs or anything."

Evan! | November 29, 2006, 2:29pm | #

"Then, WTF was he doing there?"
Allow me to posit a similar scenario: you've just landed a primo job, along with a bunch of other recent grads. But the chairman of the board is a real cocksucker. If the company held a reception, and everyone else was going to be there, would you avoid the whole shebang just to avoid that one cocksucker? Did it occur to either of you that there were other people at this reception that Webb might want to converse with?

Or is "getting your picture taken" and "standing in the presidential receiving line" the only things that happen at these receptions? Somehow I doubt that's true.

A third possibility, however remote, is that Webb orchestrated this whole scenario to make a point. But I doubt that, given that he could not have known what Bush would say to him.

kohlrabi | November 29, 2006, 2:30pm | #

"But otherwise, I can't help but like the guy."

Why? Because ill mannered prigs are so lovable? Oh, that's right, the enemy of my enemy....

This reminds me of another Reason writer's ode to Nagin.

Beat it.

mk | November 29, 2006, 2:32pm | #

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

He should have slugged him.

John | November 29, 2006, 2:32pm | #

"Did it occur to either of you that there were other people at this reception that Webb might want to converse with?"

Yeah, as a sitting U.S. Senator I am sure he has such a huge problem getting people to return his phone calls. Further, it is not like skipping the event and making some statement about it wouldn't have made him a hero among nutroots. Sometimes events just show your character; like the guy yells at the waiter who drops his drink. I can't see any other explanation for this other than that Webb is a pompus ass.

Bob | November 29, 2006, 2:34pm | #

Ooooh! That's so cool and adolescent.

THIMMESCH | November 29, 2006, 2:37pm | #

Well, Radley, if being a prig and getting publicity were not so easy to do these days -- especially when the target is President Bush -- then it might actually be that Webb is a true "Maverick". But it seems that perhaps Webb is just the person he has come across as being: a bully. And a mean one at that...watch as this neo-military man self destructs within the year and the people of Virginia will have to put up with him being their senator for another five years after that...what a mistake they made.

joe | November 29, 2006, 2:38pm | #

He's in the middle of a god damn war zone, you asshole. How do you think he is?

Shocked, SHOCKED, I am to discover that conservatarians think the help should hold their tongues around the massah.

Got a lot of kids in Iraq, John? No?

Evan! | November 29, 2006, 2:38pm | #

"That pretty much sums up the Reason staff these days. "We hate Bush so much that we can't help but like a guy who wants to enact every damaging nanny state economic policy we profess to be against. But we are not sell outs or anything."
Oh, please, John...get a fucking grip. There's more to Webb than his economic principles...there's plenty else to like, not just his Bush-bashing. Or should we oppose Webb altogether, just because we disagree with some of his policies?

Oh, but I forgot...this is John, the ol' "I can't wait to pounce on any instance of any Reason contributor saying anything good about a Democrat, and then just call them Bush-bashers" standard. Any time Dave Weigel isn't "sufficiently" critical of Democrats, or, god forbid, actually offers praise of one, you hop out of the fucking bushes and yell GOTCHA! Dude, wtf?
"Moreover, if he is there why does scoring points about Iraq prevent him from being polite? Why couldn't he have just said, "He is doing really well, but I am worried about him and I think we need to get him and those serving with him out of Iraq as soon as we can."? It is possible to make a point to someoen withtout being a complete and total asshole about it."
You've got to earn respect, John, and, personally, other than being elected to a certain governmental office, I haven't seen too many things that Bush has done to garner respect. Indeed, quite the opposite.

This fucking country, and its obsession with the executive, has elevated the president to the status of king, at least in the general mythos (said mythos is creeping into reality with all these "absolute executive power" episodes). He's another man, like you and me, not some god among peasants. And if he hasn't earned respect, then he does not deserve it.

Gillie | November 29, 2006, 2:39pm | #

"That pretty much sums up the Reason staff these days."

I, for one, have no idea how this rag can claim the mantel "Reason".

joe | November 29, 2006, 2:39pm | #

The speed with which Bush defenders line up to repeat the talking point of the day suggests that the White House is terrified of the PR problem this is about to become.

Ashish George | November 29, 2006, 2:39pm | #

Evan's right. And John's cheap shot at the Reason staff is ludicrous. Libertarians sometimes complain about getting tagged as "Republicans who like to smoke pot" or some such, but if this administration's policies DIDN'T push them toward different allies, they really wouldn't have much right to be hostile to that meme.

Besides, the content of the magazine is still critical of "damaging nanny state economic policy", and it's only a GOP-tinged fideism that could make one think Reason is morphing into The Nation.

Evan! | November 29, 2006, 2:40pm | #

Joe,

Don't let GOP lackeys like John speak for anyone else. He's just bitter because the republican party has fallen out of favor with libertarians, and so now he whines like a little girl every time any of them say anything good about a democrat, or bad about a republican.

ed | November 29, 2006, 2:41pm | #

Perhaps Webb is just pissed off that his Marine son ended up in an actual war.

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 2:41pm | #

Moreover, if he is there why does scoring points about Iraq prevent him from being polite? Why couldn't he have just said, "He is doing really well, but I am worried about him and I think we need to get him and those serving with him out of Iraq as soon as we can."?

First of all, where was Webb not polite?? In fact it was Bush who was rude with his "I didn't ask you that" remark. Real class there. You'd think that a man who has his son in harm's way would be given a little more respect when he offers his opinion that he wants his son home. And when did talking to the president mean you only get to talk about what the president directly asks you about?? The president doesn't get to decide how Webb is going to respond to his questions. This is a president who is so isolated from any detractors that they should use any and all opportunities to voice differing opinions

Furthermore, its his son. Why should Webb have to hold his tongue?? If I had a child in Iraq and the man who fucking sent him there under false pretenses asked me how he was doing I would absolutely say something to the effect of: "Not as good as he would be if he wasn't stuck in the middle of a foreign civil war that your policies created".

It is possible to make a point to someoen withtout being a complete and total asshole about it.

Really?? You should try it sometime, then.

That pretty much sums up the Reason staff these days. "We hate Bush so much that we can't help but like a guy who wants to enact every damaging nanny state economic policy we profess to be against. But we are not sell outs or anything."

Shorter John:
WHAAAAAAA!!!! Why doesn't Reason's priorities line up with mine and the GOP's??? REASON SUCKS!! WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!

joe | November 29, 2006, 2:41pm | #

Can anybody think of another reason, besides wanting to score a political point, that a parent would tell the president he wants his boy to come home from a war?

Any at all? Anyone?

Josh | November 29, 2006, 2:42pm | #

Pretty much every position he holds is repulsively anti-liberty and xenophobic, but hey, he talked back to Bush. Sad that this is what passes for laudable.

Elliott | November 29, 2006, 2:42pm | #

From John:

"Moreover, if he is there why does scoring points about Iraq prevent him from being polite? Why couldn't he have just said, 'He is doing really well, but I am worried about him and I think we need to get him and those serving with him out of Iraq as soon as we can.'?"

From the story:

"'I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President,' Webb responded, echoing a campaign theme."

How different is what he said from what you proposed he say? They seem very similar to me. Both versions seem polite enough to me.

If you're going to take Webb to task for something nitpicky, I think wondering aloud why he was at the reception anyway is plenty.

Radley Balko | November 29, 2006, 2:42pm | #

Who initiated the rudeness, here?

The president asked Webb about his son, who is fighting in Iraq, a war Webb opposes.

Like any parent, he says he'd like to have his son back home.

Bush responds with, "That's not what I asked you."

Seems awfully curt a response to someone whose son, thanks to Bush, is in harm's way, doesn't it?

I'd have wanted to slug him, too. And yeah, I'll admit it. I have a soft spot for people who aren't easily romanced and awed by political power.

Timmy | November 29, 2006, 2:43pm | #

"Allow me to posit a similar scenario: you've just landed a primo job, along with a bunch of other recent grads. But the chairman of the board is a real cocksucker. If the company held a reception, and everyone else was going to be there, would you avoid the whole shebang just to avoid that one cocksucker? Did it occur to either of you that there were other people at this reception that Webb might want to converse with? "

Anyone with experience in corporate America will tell you that only the stupidest person alive would disrespect the company chairnain while attending their new hire orientation.

Evan! | November 29, 2006, 2:44pm | #

"And a mean one at that...watch as this neo-military man self destructs within the year and the people of Virginia will have to put up with him being their senator for another five years after that...what a mistake they made.
BWAH HA HA! Right, because warmonger racist nannystate puritan asshole Allen was SUCH a better choice.

Are you fucking high?

joe | November 29, 2006, 2:44pm | #

Timmy,

Good thing Senators don't serve at the will of the President, then, or Webb's actions would have been stupid.

John | November 29, 2006, 2:45pm | #

"Got a lot of kids in Iraq, John? No?"

No Joe I don't have any children but I have a lot of friends there and very well may be back there again this summer. I am sure my father would have never acted like that if someone had asked him the same question about me.

Good to see the KOS brigade has shown up. As far as Webb's economic policies, lets look at what the Dem Congress wants to do

1. Raise the minimum wage.

2. "[F]orce companies to provide more and clearer details of CEO pay, devise policies to recapture incentive pay if earnings are later restated, and require shareholder approval of 'golden parachute' payments to dismissed executives."

3. "[S]low the flood of imports and rethink the pacts that President Bush has been negotiating to lower trade barriers."

4. "[R]equire employers to recognize a union after a majority of workers sign cards asking for representation instead of secret-ballot votes."

5. "[L]et at least some of Mr. Bush's income-tax cuts expire in 2010 or roll them back--including "[ r]aising the top two tax rates, now 33% and 35%" and raising the top (15%) capital gains tax rate.

6. Enlarging the earned-income tax credit

7. "[O]ffer eligible dislocated workers up to half the difference between weekly earnings at their old and new jobs, up to $10,000 a year"

8. "Allowing businesses with up to 100 employees tax credits to buy [health] insurance through a government-sponsored pool modeled on the Federal Employee Health Benefit Plan, which gives federal workers a choice of private health insurance plans"

9. A "'universal 401(k)' to which employees, employers and, in some cases, the government would contribute, a cousin to the private accounts Mr. Bush wanted to carve out of Social Security.

10. "[D]oing more to help Americans pay for college, including making up to $12,000 a year in college tuition tax-deductible ... [snip] as well as cutting interest rates on student loans and increasing the maximum Pell Grant for low-income students to $5,100 from $4,050."

11. "[M]ore government support of Pre-K education." [Boldface added]

Please explain how any of that is libertarian? It is precisly the stuff that Reason claims to be against but of course they can't help but like the people who endorse it.

"Furthermore, its his son. Why should Webb have to hold his tongue?? "

You are right, having an opinion gives you the right to be an asshole. You and Joe prove that on Reason every single day.

Evan! | November 29, 2006, 2:45pm | #

"
Anyone with experience in corporate America will tell you that only the stupidest person alive would disrespect the company chairnain while attending their new hire orientation."
Luckily, this scenario is slightly different in that Bush is not Webb's boss...we are.

joe | November 29, 2006, 2:47pm | #

Evan!,

I use the term "conservatarian" for the purpose of differentiating people of the John/Glenn Reynolds persuasion from actual libertarians - not for the purpose of conflating them.

Conservatarians aren't libertarians, they just play libertarians on the internets. Actual libertarians don't feel, or feign, outrage when someone fails to fall to his knees in front of a government official.

Josh | November 29, 2006, 2:47pm | #

I have a soft spot for people who aren't easily romanced and awed by political power.

In this case, specifically, other people's political power. I'm sure he's got no attraction to said power when he's the one wielding it.

joe | November 29, 2006, 2:48pm | #

"Good to see the KOS brigade has shown up."

Nice projection, conservatarian. To our never-before-seen, Bush-defending friends, welcome! This is just like the thread after Zell Miller's speech.

Josh | November 29, 2006, 2:50pm | #

If there's a prize for most self-righteous posting here, how come joe got an email about it but I didn't?

rdkraus | November 29, 2006, 2:50pm | #

Aside from the war, which libertarian ideas has Webb promoted?

Bryan | November 29, 2006, 2:50pm | #

Well, a parent might tell the president he wants his boy to come home from war, BECAUSE HE WANTS HIS BOY TO COME HOME FROM WAR.

Now to get on my soapbox for a second, that is the problem with you Republicans. You think everything has to be political, meaning so one party can win and the other party will lose. Some of us are just supporting policies and speaking our mind without a grand political agenda. Its the same reason that so many Republicans and the conservative media lined up to support such clearly flawed Bush policies. Because they thought that if they didn't, the Democrats would "win." Well guess what, the Democrats did win because the rest of us realized we can't trust anything said by a party that puts power over policy.

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 2:50pm | #

You are right, having an opinion gives you the right to be an asshole. You and Joe prove that on Reason every single day.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha

This coming from a man whose every comment on this site is based on nothing more than his own preconceived notions, stereotypes and liberal boogeymen in his head!! You really area a clown.

As others have pointed out as well, Little Johnnny-boy -- Bush was the asshole not Webb. Webb wasn't impolite in anyway (unless your ilk consider speaking frankly to the president impolite)

John | November 29, 2006, 2:51pm | #

Joe,

It is called civility and class. I can think of lots of Democrats in the past, people like Tip O'Neil or Hubert Humphrey who had boatloads of it. Now, the politics is the personal and you show your colors by seeing how big of a juvenile jerk you can be. I thought the guy who accused Clinton accused Clinton of letting U.S. soldiers die in Somalia was ass and I think Webb is an ass. You can write it off to partisanship if you want, but that is not the case.

Evan! | November 29, 2006, 2:51pm | #

Damn, John, you're all over the place. Should we be hatin' on Webb because he was supposedly rude to the almighty Prez-o-dent? Or should we be hatin' on him because his party's economic policies aren't libertarian? Or both? I just can't decide!

And, by the way, you, of all people, have NO room to chastise anyone else for being an asshole. It was your assholish first comment that got this party started. Joe might be an asshole sometimes, but he's got nothing on you in that category. At least he has the ability to have a civil conversation...something you seem woefully unable to accomplish, judging by you animus and rudeness on pretty much every comment you make here.

kohlrabi | November 29, 2006, 2:51pm | #

"I have a soft spot for people who aren't easily romanced and awed by political power."

Yeah, Senators want nothing to do with political power.

"He's in the middle of a god damn war zone, you asshole. How do you think he is?"

That's nice. That's how I respond when people ask about my family, whether they're in a war zone, have cancer, went bankrupt, whatever. Nothing says asshole like asking about your loved ones.

"That's not what I asked you"

I'll admit it. I have a soft spot for people who aren't easily romanced and awed by political power.

John | November 29, 2006, 2:54pm | #

"At least he has the ability to have a civil conversation...something you seem woefully unable to accomplish, judging by you animus and rudeness on pretty much every comment you make here."

Oh you are highly civil, there Evan. I don't why it is so hard for you people to admit it was a lousy thing to say. Is there anything that someone does to express distain for the war that you people wouldn't justify? The bottomline is that you don't like Bush and Webb could have taken a shit in the Lincoln bedroom and you would be on here talking about what a wonderful act is was.

Evan! | November 29, 2006, 2:54pm | #

"It is called civility and class. I can think of lots of Democrats in the past, people like Tip O'Neil or Hubert Humphrey who had boatloads of it."
Obviously, George W. Bush doesn't have any class or civility, given his response to Webb's answer. "That's not what I asked you!", said the almighty, referring to to Webb's son who is currently fighting in the almighty's war. So, again, who is the one who lacks "civility and class" here?

Aresen | November 29, 2006, 2:55pm | #

Webb is definitely a one-termer.

Even if you detest the guy you have to deal with, you smile and make nice, because you HAVE to deal with him. You don't serve your own interests or the interests of your constituents by this kind of grandstanding.

[In a small way, it's much like Rumsfeld's "old Europe" crack in the lead up to the invasion.

Ashish George | November 29, 2006, 2:56pm | #

"Aside from the war, which libertarian ideas has Webb promoted?"

Webb was against Virginia's anti-gay marriage amendment and pro-choice.

Lowdog | November 29, 2006, 2:56pm | #

I just think it's good that someone told Bush something he didn't want to hear. That doofus surrounds himself with yes-men and then wonders why his popularity ratings suck. Or maybe he doesn't because he doesn't follow the news. Whatever.

I don't have to like any of Webb's policies to like the fact that he told Bush off. Bush is a horrible president.

Why is any of this difficult to understand? Am I to think Webb has many, if any, policy agreements with libertarian thought? Hell no, he's a Dem, but at least we've got possible gridlock in Washington now, which is about the only hope a libertarian seems to have these days. (My only fear is that both parties are seeing how fed-up people are with their leadership and are huddling behind closed doors to try and make sure they stay in power, but I'll take my tinfoil hat off now.)

Anyway, I can dislike both of them, can't I?

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 2:57pm | #

I don't why it is so hard for you people to admit it was a lousy thing to say

Uhmmm...because it wasn't?

The bottom line is that you love Bush so much that no matter what he does you can't bring yourself criticize him for anything. He could literally start killing puppies and you would be here talking about how the puppies were enemy combatants and posed a risk to National Security.

John | November 29, 2006, 2:57pm | #

"That's not what I asked you!", said the almighty, referring to to Webb's son who is currently fighting in the almighty's war. So, again, who is the one who lacks "civility and class" here?"

According to you Bush is the devil incarnate, how does one person's incivlity justify another. Further, I don't think that response was that bad. I would have to here a tap of it to hear the tone voice. If Bush yelled at the guy "that is not what I asked you!!!" then maybe you have a point. If he said it in a reasonable tone of voice, then all he was saying was "I don't want to talk politics I would just like to know how your son is" and it was a perfectly legitimate response.

John | November 29, 2006, 2:59pm | #

"He could literally start killing puppies and you would be here talking about how the puppies were enemy combatants and posed a risk to National Security"

I could give you about a million criticisms of Bush. But he is fortunately that he has enemies that manage to be worse, which is no mean feat.

Bryan | November 29, 2006, 3:00pm | #

John, Rush and O'Reily would then attack those of us that wanted Bush to stop killing puppies by alleging that we "are not supporting the war on terror."

Go Pack Chris | November 29, 2006, 3:00pm | #

I’ve now come to the conclusion that all civility is dead. I guess in my ripe age of 36 I’m just a square---A person who thinks that the President of the United States deserves some basic respect. Even if you don’t like the man, the office deserves the respect. We sit on this stupid blog shooting our mouths off, while real men/women make difficult decisions about running a country. You’ll excuse me if I think the POTUS deserves a smile and hand-shake. The fine Congressman’s son joined a volunteer army. Perhaps the person he should be pissed at is him.

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 3:01pm | #

According to you Bush is the devil incarnate

No Johnny -- according to YOU all who don't pray to the alter of Bush think Bush is the devil incarnate. Just another example of you not being able to separate reality from the caricatures in your head.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:03pm | #

"I’ve now come to the conclusion that all civility is dead. I guess in my ripe age of 36 I’m just a square---A person who thinks that the President of the United States deserves some basic respect. Even if you don’t like the man, the office deserves the respect."

You just don't get it Chris. This is the devil Bush. Webb should have spit in his face. Take it from Evan, Chicago Tom, and Joe, when it comes to Bush we don't need no stinking civility, the offending party is always Bush and extemism in the pursuit of Bush hatred is no vice!!

John | November 29, 2006, 3:03pm | #

"No Johnny -- according to YOU all who don't pray to the alter of Bush think Bush is the devil incarnate. Just another example of you not being able to separate reality from the caricatures in your head."

I am sorry the truth hurts so bad Tom.

Jesse Walker | November 29, 2006, 3:04pm | #

Webb was against Virginia's anti-gay marriage amendment and pro-choice.

He's also a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. In general, he seems to be socially tolerant in a way that extends to people on both sides of the so-called culture war. That's a real breath of fresh air.

And does anyone here doubt that if this were a case of Bush snubbing, say, Dan Rather, virtually all the people bashing Webb here would rush to cheer the president?

Lowdog | November 29, 2006, 3:04pm | #

That's just what this pres needs, Chris, is more ass-kissing. Great.

And if you'll recall, the whole reason we went into Iraq never materialised. Hell, I'd probably have joined if not for the fact that it was a war started under completely false pretenses.

I would be proud of my child if they were fighting in a necessary and just war. The war in Iraq is neither of those things.

Evan! | November 29, 2006, 3:04pm | #

My level of civility is a matching response to your initial animus and rudeness. You want a civil discussion? Perhaps you should think before you post something as asinine as your original comment.

I readily admit that "that's not what I asked you" was a "lousy thing to say" to someone whose son is currently fighting in is war. If you want me to admit that Webb should have responded to that horribly rude statement with some asskissing and brown-nosing, I won't.
"Is there anything that someone does to express distain for the war that you people wouldn't justify?"
Oh, please. Talk about hyperbole, John...there is a line, to be sure, but responding to Bush's asshole statement with a brush-off, in my opinion, doesn't cross that line.

But, hey, way to try to steer the argument into hypothetical nowhere land, and further obscure what was really said. But your acts are futile, because we're still here, still in reality, and Webb's response to Bush's rudeness was certainly justified, whether or not I like Bush.
"The bottomline is that you don't like Bush and Webb could have taken a shit in the Lincoln bedroom and you would be on here talking about what a wonderful act is was."
Here's a tip: take your false "bottom line" and shove it up your...no, I won't. Just because you invent some "bottom line" doesn't make it remotely true. Yes, I dislike Bush and his policies and his hubris and his rudeness to Webb. But that's neither here nor there. Just as you are hating on Webb because you love Bush and his wonderful party...it has no bearing on the actual reality of the situation.

P Brooks | November 29, 2006, 3:04pm | #

"I, for one, have no idea how this rag can claim the mantel "Reason"."

I just snuck a peek at the clock on the mantle(!): glory be, its.....

MARTINI TIME!

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 3:05pm | #

A person who thinks that the President of the United States deserves some basic respect.

How exactly did Senator Webb "disrespect" Bush?? By giving him an honest answer? You know if Webb would have insulted him or ignored him or walked away from him I could see the validity of the "disrespect" comments. But telling the President

You’ll excuse me if I think the POTUS deserves a smile and hand-shake. The fine Congressman’s son joined a volunteer army. Perhaps the person he should be pissed at is him.

Or maybe the person who is misusing the volunteer army deserves some ire??

Pardon me, but when did it become "disrespectful" and "insulting" to tell someone who has presided over a failing war effort for 3 years that they would like their kids to come home?

Some people have a warped understanding of the word respect.

Ashish George | November 29, 2006, 3:05pm | #

"I’ve now come to the conclusion that all civility is dead. I guess in my ripe age of 36 I’m just a square---A person who thinks that the President of the United States deserves some basic respect. Even if you don’t like the man, the office deserves the respect. We sit on this stupid blog shooting our mouths off, while real men/women make difficult decisions about running a country. You’ll excuse me if I think the POTUS deserves a smile and hand-shake. The fine Congressman’s son joined a volunteer army. Perhaps the person he should be pissed at is him."

Respect belongs to individuals, not offices. We judge persons based on their morals, their attitudes, their virtues, and most importantly their actions. The presidency in the abstract has none of those properties on which we make judgments.

Go Pack Chris | November 29, 2006, 3:06pm | #

Oh John, spare me the “kill them all and let God sort it out crap”. Grow up I’m not fan of the man, but he doesn’t deserve to have his face spit in. That’s how we disagree in this day and age?? Perhaps it’s time for your afternoon nap?

John | November 29, 2006, 3:07pm | #

"Just because you invent some "bottom line" doesn't make it remotely true. Yes, I dislike Bush and his policies and his hubris and his rudeness to Webb. But that's neither here nor there. Just as you are hating on Webb because you love Bush and his wonderful party...it has no bearing on the actual reality of the situation."

If you ever on here could list one thing Bush ever did that you don't have a fit about or one thing his political opponents ever did that you object to, you might have a point. But of course you can't. It is like pulling teeth. I fail to see why its so hard to say, "I don't like Bush, but Webb needs to grow up and act like an adult. Bush is still the President and it does no good not to be civil."

Go Pack Chris | November 29, 2006, 3:07pm | #

George, i'm not saying you have to hump him. I'm saying he deserves a hand shake.
what is wrong with you people?

John | November 29, 2006, 3:07pm | #

Chris,

I was being ironic. I agree with you. Sorry you misunderstood.

Jon H | November 29, 2006, 3:07pm | #

John writes: " I can't see any other explanation for this other than that Webb is a pompus ass."

Maybe, but then Bush is the neocons' useful idiot who's responsible for the death and maiming of hundreds of thousands of people, all in a tragic blunder based on fantasy and self-delusion.

I think Webb's still standing on a moral high ground that looks a bit like Everest.

Jon H | November 29, 2006, 3:08pm | #

"I'm saying he deserves a hand shake. "

Shake the hand of a torturer?

joe | November 29, 2006, 3:09pm | #

John,

You have as much right to lecture me about class and civility as a dog has to lecture thoreau on partical physics.

"Aside from the war, which libertarian ideas has Webb promoted?"

Aside from the war, what claims of Webb's libertarian-friendliness has anyone ever made?

"Nothing says asshole like asking about your loved ones." Actually, nothing says asshole like snapping 'That's not what I asked you' at a dad for saying he wants his son to come home from the war.

John wrote: "Is there anything that someone does to express distain for the war that you people wouldn't justify?" Just so nobody forgets, the outrageous breach of etiquette that we're supposed to deplore Webb for commiting was to say, ""I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President." That's it. Apparently, you're not allowed to express such a thought about your son to George Bush.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:12pm | #

First of all Joe, kicking you and Tom and Evan's sorry asses around on some stupid blog thread is not exactly the same as how you act at an official function as a U.S. senator elect. Second, what Webb did is not the end of the world, it just means he acted like a jerk. The point is that since he agrees with you, it kills you to have to admit that. Again, I suppose you didn't have a problem with the people (there were at least two I can remember) who confronted Clinton in public about Samalia and Kobar Towers? There is a time and a place for everything and this wasn't it.

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 3:12pm | #

I am sorry the truth hurts so bad Tom.

What truth John? You seem to be allergic to the truth. You make up shit. I for one have never called Bush the devil or even called him evil....yet you seem to attribute to me those beliefs. Somehow that is "the truth" in your warped little world? You pull shit out of your ass and attribute it to people and then claim to be a truth teller??

You republicans are a funny lot. I've never met a bigger bunch of sleazy liars and hyppocrites in my life.

You talk of civility while insulting and making shit up about people. You talk of class while at the same time acting like a classless jackass and mocking people for what you think they think.

You know most people around these parts -- even though I don't agree with them on many / most things, I would love to sit around with and discuss / debate things and maybe even have a few drinks....but not you....you're a despicable and dishonest person. I wouldn't piss on your head if it were on fire.

Jon H | November 29, 2006, 3:12pm | #

Aresen writes: "Even if you detest the guy you have to deal with, you smile and make nice, because you HAVE to deal with him. You don't serve your own interests or the interests of your constituents by this kind of grandstanding."

I doubt Webb, as a first-term Senator, will be dealing much with Bush directly. And Bush will only be around for the next two years, anyway.

Flyover Country | November 29, 2006, 3:13pm | #

Dumbest thread ever.

Pissing match between partisans.

joe and John, take it outside.

Mr. Balko, with all due respect, better luck with your next blog entry. This post is nothing but a litmus test for partisans.

Bush and Webb are both pricks is the exchange. Who cares?

joe | November 29, 2006, 3:13pm | #

Yet another never-before-seen conservative commenter - GOPAC Chris, apparently, writes:
"I’ve now come to the conclusion that all civility is dead. I guess in my ripe age of 36 I’m just a square---A person who thinks that the President of the United States deserves some basic respect."

Once again, the shocking misbehavior that has so shaken this gentleman's world is the expression of the following two quotes:

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," and "That's between me and my boy, Mr. President."

"The fine Congressman’s son joined a volunteer army. Perhaps the person he should be pissed at is him." Yeah, the troops are responsible for the mess they're in!

Go Pack Chris | November 29, 2006, 3:13pm | #

Now for a serious question. What is up with the hot chick in the Santa outfit that keeps popping up on my screen? The one with the hot rack?

I’m civil towards presidents, not hot chicks.

joe | November 29, 2006, 3:15pm | #

"should have spit in his face...the pursuit of Bush hatred..."

Would you like me to paste the "offending" quotes again, dear?

Evan! | November 29, 2006, 3:15pm | #

John, wait...you actually think you're "kicking our asses" here? Your main argument has fallen on its face. Bush was the rude one, and Webb responded in kind. End of story. All you can do now is delve into personal attacks regarding how much, hypothetically, we'd do to justify bush bashing. Meanwhile, with several small exceptions, everyone else here has proven your wrongness on this issue.

Methinks 'tis you who is getting a kicking of the ass.

ed | November 29, 2006, 3:16pm | #

Oooh, the hysteria! The invective!
Better than Jerry Springer!
Peanuts! Getcher peanuts heeyahh!
Ice cold beeyah heeyah!

B | November 29, 2006, 3:16pm | #

Flyover,

That was a lot of reading for someone who is disgusted by this whole thread. Does the Taliban have a gun to your head to make you read this?

John, you are wrong.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:18pm | #

"joe and John, take it outside."

God, that is a funny thought.

Before I hurt Joe and Tom's delicate feelings anymore, again, there is a big difference between kicking you two around on here and an official function. The fact that you won't admit that proves my point that there is little Webb could have done that would have offended your sensibilities because he is on your side.

FinFangFoom | November 29, 2006, 3:18pm | #

People in the government and the Congress should try to be dicks to Bush as much as possible. He seems to have so many people around him trying to make sure that he never has a bad day that he's kept in a cloud of unreality. Keeping him from bad news and dissent has probably further magnified his own inherent stupidity.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:19pm | #

"John, wait...you actually think you're "kicking our asses" here? Your main argument has fallen on its face."

Is that 21st Century Internet speak for "Na Na Na!!" You are right about one thing, I need to stop letting you and Joe bring out my worst instincts, regardless of how fun it is to get you two going.

joe | November 29, 2006, 3:19pm | #

Evan!,

"John, wait...you actually think you're "kicking our asses" here?"

Apparently, John thinks that our argument is on its last legs. It's last throes, as it were.

"All you can do now is delve into personal attacks regarding how much, hypothetically, we'd do to justify bush bashing." Actually, he can also try to change the subject to Webb's economic policies. But that doesn't seem to have worked very well, either.

Jon H | November 29, 2006, 3:20pm | #

"People in the government and the Congress should try to be dicks to Bush as much as possible."

He has the kind of personality that it would probably push him to do something truly nuts.

I say do it! Set phasers to "Maximum Offense".

joe | November 29, 2006, 3:21pm | #

"Before I hurt Joe and Tom's delicate feelings anymore, again, there is a big difference between kicking you two around on here and an official function."

OK, I guess I DO have to paste them again.

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President."

"That's between me and my boy, Mr. President."

If you were that civil, John, you wouldn't be such an objection of derision.

Rip | November 29, 2006, 3:21pm | #

GFG, he even referred to Bush as "Mr. President", it isn't like he told him to go fuck himself or anything.........

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 3:21pm | #

People in the government and the Congress should try to be dicks to Bush as much as possible. He seems to have so many people around him trying to make sure that he never has a bad day that he's kept in a cloud of unreality. Keeping him from bad news and dissent has probably further magnified his own inherent stupidity.

Careful FinFangFoom -- you are perilously close to being labeled a Bush hater who thinks he is the devil by pointing out reality.

You wouldn't want Little Johnny to cyber-kick your ass like he did joe's and mine.

wingnutx | November 29, 2006, 3:23pm | #

He's in the middle of a god damn war zone, you asshole. How do you think he is?

People in Iraq are in any number of different states of being. It's a valid question.

For example, the guy playing with routers in an air-conditioned trailer is not the same as the guy who just got his dick shot off by a sniper.

Most of the poeple there are fine at any given time, if a bit bored and homesick.

Andy R | November 29, 2006, 3:23pm | #

Why did he go? Maybe because he got to look the President of the United States in the eye and tell him to bring his boy home from war. There are worse reasons.

D.A. Ridgely | November 29, 2006, 3:23pm | #

And does anyone here doubt that if this were a case of Bush snubbing, say, Dan Rather, virtually all the people bashing Webb here would rush to cheer the president?

Actually, it was Rather's public rudeness to Richard Nixon that will forever endear him to me however low an opinion I came to have of him afterwards. However, I enjoy rudeness to a president more from a private citizen than from a fellow elected weasel. Rudeness from a private citizen toward an elected official is more than permissable, it is one's patriotic duty.

Truth be told, they should probably both have behaved better.

Isaac Bartram | November 29, 2006, 3:24pm | #

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," Webb responded, echoing a campaign theme.

How about answering, "I'd like to too, but we have to get the job done."

Or "Why don't we talk about how to do that and leave Iraq a stable country some time."

Instead it's:

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

In a spot like this someone in Bush's position needs to take the high road. He seems utterly incapable of doing so.

Taking the high road wins political points even with your opponents. Instead Bush has squandered every bit of "political capital" he has gotten hold of.

I'm seeing Bush slowly committing political suicide.

Tuner | November 29, 2006, 3:25pm | #

To paraphrase Bill Hicks, i'd rather pay the extra nickel in taxes than see more American boys die for a bull shit cause in Iraq?

Not that I try and reconcile all my views with libertarianism, but what's more libertarian than opposing social engineering with the US Armed Forces?

Also, I don't feel supporting Webb here is partisan, its more, I don't know, moral, seeing as he does have a child in harms way because the man asking him about him happened to have put him there for no good reason.

Evan! | November 29, 2006, 3:25pm | #

"You are right about one thing, I need to stop letting you and Joe bring out my worst instincts, regardless of how fun it is to get you two going."

Oh, that's rich! Now it's our fault that you're an asshole? Even though your very first post in this thread was directed at Reason, and, coincidentally enough, was extremely assholish and uncivil?

Please. Be a man, take responsibility for your own actions.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:26pm | #

Tom Joe,

Maybe we need to start a radio show or something. You two are too much. I laugh at this stuff and I think you two really get mad. If you would bother to read my posts, I admit that if Bush said "that is not what I asked you" some vindictive tone than you may have a point about Bush, but even so Bush being a jerk doesn't justify Webb being a jerk. Give me a break "I wanted to slug him" That bullshit doens't pass the gigle test. That is just Webb playing to people like you two. Again, I fail to see why it is so hard for you two to admit that Webb was rude and should get over himself.

joe | November 29, 2006, 3:29pm | #

Whoa, hey, just a joke, folks!

I really had you going, didn't I? You thought I was really mad? Ho, ho, ho, you didn't know I was kidding, did you?

Man, you guys need to stop taking everything so seriously!

Whatever you say, John.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:31pm | #

Yeah Joe,

Don't give yourself or something over a blog thread. Really. It is not a joke in that you and Tom and Evan are completely full of shit. If you think I am admiting you are right, then read again.

Again | November 29, 2006, 3:31pm | #

"Seems awfully curt a response to someone whose son, thanks to Bush"

Thanks to Bush? Was the draft re-instated and nobody told me?

The kid volunteered for the Marine Corps. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure everyone who does so is well aware of what it is the Marine Corps does. His job is to be in harm's way, if not in Iraq then somewhere else. I salute him for it.

D.A. Ridgely | November 29, 2006, 3:32pm | #

Of course, it isn't as though Bush doesn't have children in dangerous overseas situations, too.

FinFangFoom | November 29, 2006, 3:32pm | #

In the interest of killing this thread,

John, you just believe that because you SHEEPLE will always follow the DICKTATOR in BUSHITLER'S AMERIKKKA.

Note that the S in BUSHITLER is like the SS symbol. I am sorry I am not able to replicate the exact style and tone of such a post, but I have some grammar and spelling skills left.

wingnutx | November 29, 2006, 3:32pm | #

I don't think either of them responded particularly gracefully.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:33pm | #

"John, you just believe that because you SHEEPLE will always follow the DICKTATOR in BUSHITLER'S AMERIKKKA. "

Bush is Hitler, that is why he stole that election this November. Those Republicans will never give up power!!

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 3:38pm | #

Again, I fail to see why it is so hard for you two to admit that Webb was rude and should get over himself.

Because he wasn't. You can keep saying it all you want....but that won't make it so.

And despite your "well it depends on the tone" comments -- why is it so hard for you to admit that the tone is insignificant and the response was pedantic?? That is the type of response that a spoiled kid would give when he is forced to hear something he doesn't want to hear. It's also quite typical of a president who is so insulated from reality and dissenting voices that his temper flares whenever he is presented with opinions that do not line up with his.

I fail to see why it is so hard for you to admit that Bush was rude and should get over himself.

Brian24 | November 29, 2006, 3:38pm | #

I'm not sure how anybody can claim to know whether either of these two guys was being rude without actually hearing the tone of the conversation and, preferably, seeing their facial expressions as well. It's entertaining to see you all so worked up over it, though.

But even if Webb was being rude (and maybe he was), Bush ought to be savvy enough to realize that the better part of valor would be to simply thank the man for his son's service and express a similar desire to see our troops home.

thoreau | November 29, 2006, 3:38pm | #

You know, the somewhat testy remarks between these two guys at a party are quite tame compared with a typical blog thread about a topic like, say, testy remarks between two guys at a party.

My only regret is that neither of them mentioned corn syrup. That would have made for a much more interesting exchange!

FinFangFoom | November 29, 2006, 3:40pm | #

BUSHITLER lost KONTROL thie THYME. That's why he's building his secret NEOKONAZI base in PARAGAY. BUSHITLERSTROESSNER will bring WAR to the WORLD.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:41pm | #

"tone is insignificant and the response was pedantic??"

I don't think so. The tone is everything. Bush may have been rude, but like most conversations it comes down to tone and context. Even if you admit for the sake of argument that he was, that doesn't let Webb off the hook or make him anymore likable.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:42pm | #

"But even if Webb was being rude (and maybe he was), Bush ought to be savvy enough to realize that the better part of valor would be to simply thank the man for his son's service and express a similar desire to see our troops home."

You are exaclty right. Bush is usually a little brighter than that and is known to be very good one on one. I am surprised he didn't do just that. He must have been off his game that day.

wingnutx | November 29, 2006, 3:43pm | #

"I'm not sure how anybody can claim to know whether either of these two guys was being rude without actually hearing the tone of the conversation"

Very true.

Rip | November 29, 2006, 3:44pm | #

Actually, John, it's pretty well known that Bush is an asshole to anyone that disagrees with him. Even many of his cheerleaders in Republican punditry have admitted as much. Why can't you just admit it and move on?

joe | November 29, 2006, 3:45pm | #

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President."

"That's between me and my boy, Mr. President."

Why can't I admit that Webb was being rude, and should get over himself? Because neither of the above comments can be remotely classified as rude, and because they depict a man who hasn't "gotten over" the well-being of his son, rather than himself.

Webb's "rudeness" appears to be that he rebuffed Bush's attempt to establish a buddy-buddy relationship. No nickname for him!

FinFangFoom | November 29, 2006, 3:48pm | #

BUSHITLERSTROESSNER will use (nic)PARAGAY to spread FRANKENKROPS & KOWS to the WHOLE WORLD. ALL KROPS and LIEVSTOK will be PROGRAMMED to PRODUCE KORN SYRUP and TRANSFATS and FLORIDA-ATION. HE wILL rULE over an OBESE WORLD of PROTOFLORIDIANS! THAT IS BUSHITLERSTROESSNER's Plan for the ameriKKKa WORLD.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:48pm | #

"Actually, John, it's pretty well known that Bush is an asshole to anyone that disagrees with him."

Oh Really? That is not what I have always read. In both 2000 and 2004 his enemies accused him of charming the press into unfairly positive coverage. This is the guy who watched movies with Ted Kennedy while he let him run education policy. I have never read that Bush is anything but charming in person. Even the people who don't like him admit that.

D.A. Ridgely | November 29, 2006, 3:48pm | #

My only regret is that neither of them mentioned corn syrup. That would have made for a much more interesting exchange!

Mmmmmmmmm... can there ever be too much HFCS in a food product? I think not!

John | November 29, 2006, 3:50pm | #

"That's between me and my boy, Mr. President,"

That is rude as hell. What does that even mean? Someone asks you how your son is doing and your response is basically "none of your business". That is a lousy thing to say. You just say he is doing fine and move on.

steveintheknow | November 29, 2006, 3:50pm | #

What is this, fucking wimbledon? Since when did we start caring about couth? Why am I refering to you guys as we? Who am I

Rimfax | November 29, 2006, 3:51pm | #

John, I curse you for the simple fact that I find myself in the very uncomfortable position of agreeing strongly with joe.

John | November 29, 2006, 3:54pm | #

Sorry Rimfax,

I will try to make it up to. I promise. I guess at heart I am a company man. I loath Jimmy Carter more than probably anyone on earth, but I met the guy I was very polite. He is still an ex-President.

Hank | November 29, 2006, 3:56pm | #

I can't wait for the Democratic congress to take over so that they can start imposing their brand of big government and Reason's new honeymoon with the left can end already.

P Brooks | November 29, 2006, 3:59pm | #

"Reason's new honeymoon with the left"

Waiter!

Ken | November 29, 2006, 3:59pm | #

I think Webb is great. Remember Truman, who said he would punch in the nose people who made fun of his daughter? Its called authenticity. Webb is true to his feelings, and his feeling was to punch Bush in the face. I thought Bush was supposed to represent such manly, kick ass men?
Remember when Cheney told Leahy to "F" off? I hope he tries with Webb...

Rip | November 29, 2006, 4:00pm | #

John,

Peggy Noonan, for one, has written on more than one occasion of Bush's advisors being asking "how many weeks on the shit list?" just for disagreeing with him in front of people. And that's just one example, there are many of him getting snippy with people when they don't respond to him in the way he wants them too.

This, actually, would be another example of that attitude as well.

Blooegard Q Kazoo | November 29, 2006, 4:01pm | #

Why I Oughtta'...

...and I WILL oughtta'!

highnumber | November 29, 2006, 4:01pm | #

This thread had better not exceed my all-time favorite. This is not nearly as fun.

John | November 29, 2006, 4:02pm | #

Rip,

Now that you say that, I remember those Noonan articles. But those are his advisors, he usually is all charms around his advasaries, which Webb would be one.

FinFangFoom | November 29, 2006, 4:02pm | #

BUSHITLERSTROESSNER's aMeRiNiKKKParagWAY demands that you stop this thread.

John | November 29, 2006, 4:04pm | #

Highnumber

I missed out on that thread. Frankly I don't like Santorum or other's people's children so I probably would have been agreeing with Joe and Tom that the picture was funny as hell.

Edward | November 29, 2006, 4:05pm | #

Good for Webb. Civility should be reserved for funerals (except for Cheney's).

John | November 29, 2006, 4:07pm | #

Ok Ed,

Fair enough, but is that civility for your side or everyone? If civility has no place I guess you wouldn't have had a problem with Bush telling Webb "it is too bad defeatists like you want to cut your son off at the knees"? Afterall civility is for funerals.

joe | November 29, 2006, 4:07pm | #

"That is rude as hell. What does that even mean?"

It means he doesn't feel like discussing personal matters with this stranger. It means he wants to keep their relationship professional, instead of acting all back-slappy. You're using "rude" to mean "not actively purusing friendship." Not everyone has to be Dubya's buddy.

" Remember Truman, who said he would punch in the nose people who made fun of his daughter? Its called authenticity."

Wait a minute, I thought authenticity was when a kid from southern California dressed up in cowbody boots and spit tobacco juice during public events while flying a revel flag. (Yup, still afterglowing.)

moonbiter | November 29, 2006, 4:08pm | #

That is rude as hell.

Yeah, so what?

What does that even mean?

It means "My family is not a subject I have any desire to discuss with you, so do not proceed with this line of conversation any further."

Someone asks you how your son is doing and your response is basically "none of your business".

And when it is "none of their business," this is neither wrong nor incorrect.

That is a lousy thing to say.

Sorry; when someone is a louse to you, you are free to be a louse back. Webb said something basically neutral, Bush got pushy about it, so Webb pushed back. It's all very simple.

After all, if the office of the President deserves respectful behavior, the office of a Senator deserves some as well. They are both elected representatives of the will of the People (or at least they are supposed to be).

Certainly it might offend the fawning courtiers, but there is no reason to be Miss Manners in this situation. After all, I thought one of traits in the conservatives admired was speaking your mind and not being politically correct or overly polite. Now you're breaking out the smelling salts? Please.

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 4:09pm | #

That is rude as hell. What does that even mean? Someone asks you how your son is doing and your response is basically "none of your business". That is a lousy thing to say. You just say he is doing fine and move on.

I would agree if this was his initial response to the president's query. But it wasn't. It was in response to the President's pedantic "that isn't what I asked you" comment.

I am not going to fault Webb for responding, in kind, to a president who tried to put Webb in his place. Just like I don't think joe or Evan are being dicks when they respond to you in the mannwe which you talk to / about others.

If Webb would have responded to Bush's "how's your son" with "that's between me and my son" I would be the first one to agree that it was rude an uncalled for. But that isn;t the case....that statement was in response to Bush's hissy fit about being forced to hear something he doesn't like to hear...dissent.

What is it with the GOPers and being able to dish it out but not take it? The Clintons were called rapists and murderers and liars and crooks and no one on the right even flinched or was worried about lack civility and the downward spiral of public discourse. Yet here someone tells the president to bring the troops home and you people rush to condemn someone for speaking truth to power. Weird.

I don't remember you getting your panties in a bunch over Cheney telling Leahy to go fuck himself...and that was truly "rude" -- much worse than anything Webb or Bush said. Funny how your standards are different depending on which side of the aisle is doing the talking.

John | November 29, 2006, 4:09pm | #

" Remember Truman, who said he would punch in the nose people who made fun of his daughter? Its called authenticity."

If Bush was making fun of his son, you would have apoint, but he wasn't. It is Kerry and Rangle who insult servicemenbers not Bush.

"Wait a minute, I thought authenticity was when a kid from southern California dressed up in cowbody boots and spit tobacco juice during public events while flying a revel flag. (Yup, still afterglowing.)"

If you are looking for me to defend Allen before or after the election you have come to the wrong place. He is a complete phony. Unfortuenatly, after this "I wanted to slug him" bullshit, it looks like Webb might be just
as big of one.

ed | November 29, 2006, 4:10pm | #

Reason's new honeymoon with the left

It's not so much a honeymoon with the left as a divorce with the right, which leaves Reason applauding dutifully from a third-row seat at The Daily Show. A shame that sarcasm has replaced the optimism that was once a hallmark of Reason's editorial philosophy.

Jon H | November 29, 2006, 4:11pm | #

"The kid volunteered for the Marine Corps. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure everyone who does so is well aware of what it is the Marine Corps does. His job is to be in harm's way, if not in Iraq then somewhere else. I salute him for it."

Yes, he enlisted voluntarily.

But most people do that believing their Commander in Chieft won't send them on a hopeless, dangerous, unplanned mission to capture the big Rock Candy Mountain. Oh, sorry, that should be "a hopeless, dangerous, unplanned mission to turn Iraq into a model of Democracy so that freedom will sweep across the Middle East leaving a bunch of happy US-friendly nations selling cheap oil."

John | November 29, 2006, 4:12pm | #

"I don't remember you getting your panties in a bunch over Cheney telling Leahy to go fuck himself...and that was truly "rude" -- much worse than anything Webb or Bush said. Funny how your standards are different depending on which side of the aisle is doing the talking."

Since I don't have a hotline informing you every time something bothers me, it makes sense you wouldn't have. Cheney should not have said that and he got roasted in the media about it, as he should have. He certainly wasn't help up as some kind of hero or lauded onthe pages of Reason as being "a guy I can't help but like". Last I heard Leahy was about as anti-libertarian as they came. Certainly Reason would want people to be incivil to him.

joe | November 29, 2006, 4:15pm | #

Hey John,

If a judge paroled a 26-year-old violent rapist, who moved in next door to you, how would you answer that judge when he asked, "How's your daughter?" at a function? I'll just point out that your family chose to buy a house on that block a few years before Judge Dipshit was appointed to the bench.

Jim Webb feels that George Bush has needlessly endangered his son, and he has a good reason to think so.

Jon h | November 29, 2006, 4:16pm | #

Chicago Tom writes: "I am not going to fault Webb for responding, in kind, to a president who tried to put Webb in his place."

Basically, Bush responded as if Webb was an Army private, not a Senator.

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 4:16pm | #

If civility has no place I guess you wouldn't have had a problem with Bush telling Webb "it is too bad defeatists like you want to cut your son off at the knees"?

Well not really. Webb didn't insult Bush. That response would be a direct insult. Webb didn't engage in name calling...but its pretty indicative of you to equate telling the C-in-C that we should bring our boys home with using a disparaging remark ("defeatist") directed at someone. It pretty SOP from your side -- ignore the substance and personally attack the messenger. That's what you do on these threads and that's what the GOPers do in government.

But even that answer would have been better than than his "that's not what I asked you" remark. But if his past ad-libbing power is any indication, I would wager the slow witted Bush wouldn't be able to come up with a line like that fast enough.

John | November 29, 2006, 4:17pm | #

"Jim Webb feels that George Bush has needlessly endangered his son, and he has a good reason to think so."

First, I would love to know what his son thinks. Second, to compare the supporting the war to supporting rape is rediculous. Shockingly Joe, reasonable people can differ about things and not everyone who disagrees with you about the War is evil.

FinFangFoom | November 29, 2006, 4:17pm | #

I guess at the end of the day, Webb should never voice any disagreement with the President and otherwise support everything BUSHI-, um Bush does, because otherwise the President might get upset.

joe | November 29, 2006, 4:18pm | #

"to compare the supporting the war to supporting rape is rediculous."

I didn't compare supporting the war to supporting rape; I compared it to supporting parole.

John | November 29, 2006, 4:18pm | #

Further, if Webb is that angry at Bush, whey did he come in the first place? It goes right back to the first post on this thread, if Webb really feels that way, why not stay home rather than going there and being a jerk?

Jon H | November 29, 2006, 4:19pm | #

If Bush wants to be treated like the Queen, he should at least wear a nice, understated dress.

ace | November 29, 2006, 4:19pm | #

Has anyone noticed that Bush asked Webb about his son, and Webb answered with "them" not "him" out of Iraq? This explains a little better Bush's response.

An equally contrary, yet less odd-sounding response from Webb would have been "He'd be a lot better if he was home from Iraq."

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 4:19pm | #

Since I don't have a hotline informing you every time something bothers me, it makes sense you wouldn't have

This is the best you can offer? Johnny, I've been reading and commenting around these parts for a little while now and I remember the HnR thread about Cheney's go fuck yourself...and I seem to remember an absense of outrage from you. (it's not like you weren't posting on other threads at the time)

Maybe you were outraged, but I guess you only publicly post about it when it's directed toward Democrats.

joe | November 29, 2006, 4:20pm | #

"Further, if Webb is that angry at Bush, whey did he come in the first place? It goes right back to the first post on this thread, if Webb really feels that way, why not stay home rather than going there and being a jerk?"

Because it was an official event, related to his job. You think I wanted to go to every Holiday Party I ever sipped luke-warm cider with someone named "Bev" at?

John | November 29, 2006, 4:20pm | #

If Webb has said up front "I can't stand Bush and that bastard is going to get my son killed and therefore I am not going to the Whitehouse." I would think he was a nut, but would have to respect him for having principles.

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 4:21pm | #

Further, if Webb is that angry at Bush, whey did he come in the first place?

This was answered upthread. It wasn't a let's fellate Bush party....it was a reception for freshman members of Congress...maybe he wanted to interact with the adults that were there instead of baby Bush ??

Again | November 29, 2006, 4:21pm | #

"But most people do that believing their Commander in Chieft won't send them on a hopeless, dangerous, unplanned mission to capture the big Rock Candy Mountain."

Yes, because such silly little excursions by the Marine Corps have been such rarities throughout recent and past history.

Webb's son is in harms way because he joined the Marines, period. His dad, the president and anybody else can go screw themselves if they want to make that decision a political football. Personal responsibility.

FinFangFoom | November 29, 2006, 4:22pm | #

So, let me get this straight, it is rude to tell someone that you disagree with them in politics in person, especially if your job is to decide what policies the nation will follow.

This is exactly what the Founder's wanted.

John | November 29, 2006, 4:23pm | #

"Because it was an official event, related to his job. "

He is a Senator. If he refused to go to the Whitehouse, he would have immediately become your favorite Senator.

Tom,

Why I was not all over the REason pages about Cheney, I can't tell you. Perhaps, my life intruded. More importantly, I don't remember Reason celibrating him for it. So I guess only Democrats can be rude in Reason world?

joe | November 29, 2006, 4:26pm | #

The Iraq War certainly is silly, and it is an excursion, but it most certainly is not little.

We're not talking about a continuation of the Dominican-Lebanese-Grenadian-Panamanian "splendid little wars" to flex our muscles when there is a small matter to deal with. The decision to go to invade, occupy, govern, and remake Iraq was one of the most momentous in our nation's history.

"You decided to get in the cab" is a legitimate response to a complaint of a peculiar odor, but not to a complaint that the cabbie drove off a bridge.

FinFangFoom | November 29, 2006, 4:26pm | #

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President" does not equal "Fuck you, Leahy."

John | November 29, 2006, 4:30pm | #

"You decided to get in the cab" is a legitimate response to a complaint of a peculiar odor, but not to a complaint that the cabbie drove off a bridge."

You take the oath, you take the oath. Short of launching a coup to overthrow the U.S. government or an individual order to murder someone, if you are in you are along for the ride. When you start talking about soldiers as victims of the government, you are a thin line away from the "they were stabbed in the back" line of reasoning. That is a road to nowhere. Civilians run the military and are answerable to the voters for how they do so not the military.

joe | November 29, 2006, 4:30pm | #

Actually, it was "Go fuck yourself."

mantooth | November 29, 2006, 4:30pm | #

"If Bush wants to be treated like the Queen, he should at least wear a nice, understated dress."

The winner!

joe | November 29, 2006, 4:32pm | #

"You take the oath, you take the oath. Short of launching a coup to overthrow the U.S. government or an individual order to murder someone, if you are in you are along for the ride...Civilians run the military and are answerable to the voters for how they do so not the military."

That's right; military personnel live and die, without recourse, based on the decisions made by the President.

This doesn't make diminish his responsibility for them; it increases it.

John | November 29, 2006, 4:32pm | #

"If Bush wants to be treated like the Queen, he should at least wear a nice, understated dress."

That is true. Bush can't complain about this. Too bad if someone is rude to him. My only point is that Webb can't complain when someone else calls him a jerk.

ChicagoTom | November 29, 2006, 4:32pm | #

Perhaps, my life intruded.

Perhaps. Or perhaps you're just a sad hyppocrite. Either way, please spare us all your lecturing about civility and rudeness until you are willing to hold your side to the same standards that you demand the other side to abide by.

I don't remember Reason celibrating him for it. So I guess only Democrats can be rude in Reason world?

What does this even mean??

H-N-R had a post about the fact that it happened (I don't recall it being celebratory or chiding)...so i don't really know what kind of conclusions you can rationally draw about the "Reason world" (whatever that is)

FinFangFoom | November 29, 2006, 4:33pm | #

So when elected political leaders espouse the idea that the troops should be brought home, that is just a smidgen shy of a Beer Hall Putsch?

joe | November 29, 2006, 4:33pm | #

The fact that people in the military put their lives in the President's hands doesn't make it any less important that he behave responsibly with that power; it makes it more important.

mantooth | November 29, 2006, 4:35pm | #

"Perhaps, my life intruded."

That'd be a first. I picture you at home every day in front of multiple monitors, hitting refresh on 35 different threads and replying with righteous fury. But yeah, maybe you had something else going on that day.

- "John, come to bed!"

- "Dammit woman, there's a war on!"

Eric the .5b | November 29, 2006, 4:36pm | #

Ehn.

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," isn't exactly a tearful answer to Bush's question about his son (unless his son's suddenly royalty) - it's a declaration of "Screw your false camaraderie, I ain't your friend." Rude and cold, but no partisan here has a leg to stand on to criticize him - and it's probably far more sincere (since he has a son in harm's way) than most angry posturing we see here.

Bush could have responded more suavely. In his shoes, I would have opted for a respectful, solemn acknowledgment-without-agreement like, "Fair enough, Mr. Webb," followed by either, "How is your son?" if Webb seemed disarmed or a simple, "Best wishes to your son," followed by leaving alone the guy who didn't want to talk to him in the first place. But...to be blunt, Bush gave a fair, if impolite, response back to someone who responded coldly to pleasantries. Petty, but less than outrageous.

Two people with no reason to like each other and every reason to oppose each other were just a bit frosty towards each other. Way overblown by partisans trying to spin it in their favor.

John | November 29, 2006, 4:39pm | #

I don't remember Reason celibrating him for it. So I guess only Democrats can be rude in Reason world?

What does this even mea