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It's remarkable, writes Senior Editor Jacob Sullum, how many people at this time of year will insist with a straight face that they are celebrating a secular winter holiday season, when the reason for the season—the birth of the Christian Savior, whom his followers believe to be the Son of God—is about as religious as things get.
New at Reason: Jacob Sullum on Peace, Love, and Misunderstanding Christmas
Comments to "New at Reason: Jacob Sullum on Peace, Love, and Misunderstanding Christmas":
ktc2 | December 24, 2008, 7:23am | #
Sorry Mr. Sullum but the original "reason for the season" was not Christ. It was a pagan holiday that was "appropriated" by the christians when they failed to wipe it out.http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm
rtrnr | December 24, 2008, 7:46am | #
ktc2, I think you're missing Jacob's point. Indeed, you're demonstrating it! You see, by insisting that it's a pagan religious holiday, your confirming that it's not a secular holiday.Duh.
Ebenezer Scrooge | December 24, 2008, 7:58am | #
Ho! Ho! Ho! Merry Christmas and fuck you very much!Jose Ortega y Gasset | December 24, 2008, 8:19am | #
With the U.S. government spending trillions it doesn't have... is this what is really worrying the Sullum clan? Yeah, it would be nice if people didn't pretend Christmas is really a secular holiday. It would be nice if they didn't pretend they elected candidates on "the issues." It would be nice if they pretend they knew a rat fuck about anything outside of reality TV. It would be nice if the worst thing we had to worry about was an animal sacrifce to Baal in the public square.SIV | December 24, 2008, 8:23am | #
Merry Christmas!Brian Heyer | December 24, 2008, 8:31am | #
God loves you, dear reader, and calls you to faith.All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21
Nemo | December 24, 2008, 8:31am | #
Good ol' Reason, bravely fighting for...Oh who the fuck even knows anymore.
FrBunny | December 24, 2008, 8:32am | #
@ktc2:Sorry Mr. Sullum, but the original...
Yes, and the original reason for hunting was for food. And the original reason for beer was because it kept. And the original reason for silly putty was warfare.
And it's all got fuckall to do with the last few centuries.
Sorry, working on Non-Denominational Holiday Eve has me cranky.
Cabeza De Vaca | December 24, 2008, 8:39am | #
Merry Kwanzanukah everybody.Jeff P | December 24, 2008, 8:40am | #
As long as christians insist that the existence of opinions other than their own constitutes persecutuion, my christmas wish will be that they get the chance to experience actual persecution so that they learn to know the difference.Ho. Just Ho.
I don't see how any one culture can stake a claim to an event that makes the entire world happy, longer days. Jacob, secularists at least aren't bitter that it isn't their religion that's getting the credit. Isn't it about time to get over it?
FrBunny | December 24, 2008, 8:42am | #
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.If this was about anybody but Gawd Ahhhhlmitey it would be immediately dismissed as the rantings of a lunatic.
Let's try.
Steven Segal made a perfect movie to be a shitty movie for us, so that in Steven Segal we might become the awesomeness of Steven Segal.
Do you see how your religion sounds to us?
Ska | December 24, 2008, 8:44am | #
That's not a very Christian attitude Jeff.ed | December 24, 2008, 8:49am | #
As long as local and state governments stick to illuminated evergreens and other "secular symbols"...they don't have to worry about violating the First Amendment's Establishment ClauseBut that's precisely the problem. Let one pressure group have a display on public property and you are morally obliged to let any crackpot with an agenda have one too. The simple solution is to respect the property rights of private individuals and keep public places neutral and free of political displays. What's so hard about that?
phalkor | December 24, 2008, 8:51am | #
My Religion is bigger than your dick!Oh wait, that doesn't sound right at all...
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
ktc2 | December 24, 2008, 8:51am | #
rtrnr,You missed my point entirely. I never said it was a secular holiday. I merely pointed out that it was not originally a Christian holiday.
soulrebel | December 24, 2008, 8:51am | #
i don't believe in perpetuating myths be they jewish, christian, islamic or whatever. chanukah, christmas, and every other religious holiday can kiss my ass. long live halloween.Jess Manor | December 24, 2008, 8:52am | #
Peace and Love rock! They are good things indeed!jess
www.Ultimate-Anonymity.com
Actually peace on earth is the last thing I think of at this time of year. I'm not sure who should bear my wrath more, the stinking ritual loving pagans, or the selfish Christians who stole the thing and made it an even bigger hassle. Now, I need to go out and figure out why my 20 year old strand of C9s won't fucking light.
S. Claws | December 24, 2008, 8:55am | #
And what about that jolly fat bastard who brings me toys? Sure, originally he was a saint, but to me it is all about the XBox that my kids are going to get and that I will play after they go to sleep.As an atheist I don't believe in the virgin birth any more than I believe that a family of monkeys secretly lives in my butt. Even so, I still put up a tree and I think that I have a couple of manger scene ornaments.
Heck, I'd go to Hanukkah parties if my Jewish friends would quit being so clannish and invite me! (Are there such things as Hanukkah parties?) I'd even celebrate Ramadan if it was any fun!
Other atheists who get their panties in a knot need to chill. What's the big freakin' deal? For me I can make it as secular as I want!
Jeff P | December 24, 2008, 8:57am | #
No. A christian attitude would be one of smugness in my co-opted third-hand morality and denying that ethics existed in any form before monotheism.When the dominant belief system, permiating every sector of our lives, claims it is wounded because of the machinations of unbelievers, they rival only holocaust-deniers, and possibly O.J., for sheer disconnect from reality. They invalidate themselves as rational beings.
Easter is a much more religiously significant holiday, yet it is a blip compared to Christmas.
jsh | December 24, 2008, 9:03am | #
Tomorrow, we celebrate the virgin birth of a savior who rose again from the dead.Happy Birthday, Mithras.
http://culturalvision.net/html/merry_mithras.html
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2003/04/is-christianity-based-on-pagan-roots.php
Jeff P | December 24, 2008, 9:06am | #
A family of monkeys secretly living in one's butt would make a great basis for a Christmas belief. They could come out and fling poo and bad kids...Episiarch | December 24, 2008, 9:07am | #
Steven Segal made a perfect movie to be a shitty movie for us, so that in Steven Segal we might become the awesomeness of Steven Segal.This makes perfect sense to me. You have seen Hard to Kill, right?
And also: this.
Christmas is big because the season was already festive. And it gets bigger as secularists go along and other religions elevate lower tier holidays to keep their kids happy.
lukas | December 24, 2008, 9:16am | #
Ramadan is lots of fun, especially at night and when it's over. Y'all should try it some day.FrBunny | December 24, 2008, 9:22am | #
This makes perfect sense to me.I know. Once I wrote it I thought "Crap. that's a religion I could really get behind."
Guess I have to believe Jesus is magic now.
ktc2 | December 24, 2008, 9:28am | #
Jesus is actually a confused zombie. He's back from the dead and goes around wanting the rest of the world to eat pieces of him, instead of the other way around.Episiarch | December 24, 2008, 9:29am | #
Guess I have to believe Jesus is magic now.Actually, I suggest Shatnerology.
Crocodile Dundee | December 24, 2008, 9:32am | #
I don't see how any one culture can stake a claim to an event that makes the entire world happy, longer days.Typical Northern Hemisphere bias!
FrBunny | December 24, 2008, 9:34am | #
Evidently so many people in my company abused access to Shatnerology.com that it is blocked by the IT gods.I'm being oppressed!
Michael Solana | December 24, 2008, 9:40am | #
Meh. You're very silly.The Establishment Clause says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Putting up a Christmas Tree or a Menorah makes no law, and prohibits no free exercise of any religion or lack thereof. If you don't like Christmas, cool. Don't celebrate it. You're missing out, of course. I don't believe that Christ was god and I love Christmas; but to each his own.
Just do us all a favor and lighten the heck up, though. Isn't there some kind of U.S. socialist revolution (at least in campaign rhetoric) that you should be writing about? "Merry Christmas" is the least of our problems.
Episiarch | December 24, 2008, 9:40am | #
FrBunny, try this to at least see the main page.And now you see the violence inherent in the system.
FrBunny | December 24, 2008, 9:45am | #
Jesus could fly!And yet, in 33 years, Jesus never mastered Abraca-Chicken.
Epi - Thanks. You have toppled the IT oppression and freed my soul. I will now worship you and celebrate the day you were born... on December 25. With a tree in my living room.
Christmas in my Atheist household is about family and sharing. We couldn't give a crap about Christ. Have we sold out? Frankly, I don't really care. I get a day off to watch the Celtics pound the Lakers, lots of cookies and a Blu-Ray version of The Dark Knight.
Episiarch | December 24, 2008, 10:00am | #
And yet, in 33 years, Jesus never mastered Abraca-Chicken.That's pretty advanced. I don't know if even G.O.B. could do it.
I will now worship you and celebrate the day you were born... on December 25.
Works for me.
Ska | December 24, 2008, 10:01am | #
I'm looking forward to some rum nog, a little CoD 4 and NHL 09, and the two day food orgy. If you're down to get fat, drunk and stoned with me, cool, merry Christmas. If you're not, enjoy whatever you're doing.robc | December 24, 2008, 10:03am | #
Because it seems appropriate, I give you What Christmas Means to Me by C. S. Lewis.The first paragraph, especially, seems to fit this discussion.
robc | December 24, 2008, 10:03am | #
I apologize for the background on that link. Merry Christmas, hope you get new eyes.Mad Max | December 24, 2008, 10:07am | #
‘the Christmas Program at my 5-year-old daughter's public school’One can no more avoid religious issues in public schools than you can avoid them in collective farms. Just as the management at a collective farm has to decide whether to celebrate harvest rituals, give workers time off for religious holidays, etc., public schools have to decide what to teach in contentious morally-charged issues, whether to give students time off, etc.
‘ticklish position as practicing Jews’
So which of Maimonides’ key principles of Judaism do you believe in?
http://www.ou.org/torah/rambam.htm
‘i don't believe in perpetuating myths be they jewish, christian, islamic or whatever. chanukah, christmas, and every other religious holiday can kiss my ass. long live halloween.’
I wasn’t aware that All Hallows Eve had a secular origin. I am aware that some argue for a pagan origin, but secular? Or is this just the old Enlightenment idea that paganism is cool but Christianity sucks?
denying that ethics existed in any form before monotheism
Oh, it existed, all right, but it was a different ethics. There’s an attempt to revive a version of pagan ethics today.
Exposure of infants ---- abortion
Gladiatorial games ---- reality TV
etc.
Episiarch | December 24, 2008, 10:09am | #
I'm looking forward to some rum nog, a little CoD 4 and NHL 09, and the two day food orgy. If you're down to get fat, drunk and stoned with me, cool, merry Christmas.You suck. I have to float around my parent's huge annual Christmas Eve party making small talk with everyone. I will take Vicodin and drink wine to make this more bearable.
BTW Jacob, why didn't you mention the fact that the simple act of making Christmas a State and Federal Holiday is far more violative of establishment then decorating the town hall with Christmas lights?
ed | December 24, 2008, 10:14am | #
Putting up a Christmas Tree or a Menorah makes no law, and prohibits no free exercise of any religion or lack thereofHow about posting the 10 Commandments in a court of law? Is that ok too? Is Christ on a cross acceptable? Rational Americans needn't be reminded that they are in the minority. The evidence is all around them. Irrational ones can put their tacky manger scenes on their own property. Overtly religious displays on public property is tyranny of the majority, something the Constitution explicitly addresses. "Free exercise" doesn't mean public financing of religion or religious symbols, regardless of the season.
Most cultures have a winter festival. What is celebrated around Christmas is mostly secular now. Just the same as the Chistians modernized the Pagan holidays, we have modernized Christmas, by largely removing the Christian elements from it. You don't need to be religious to put up a X-Mas tree and buy presents for your kids, pretending Santa brought them on a sled pulled by reindeer. Besides, without the lie about Santa Claus, when would a lot of us have started questioning what other lies we were told about mythical figures?
Michael Solana | December 24, 2008, 10:39am | #
"How about posting the 10 Commandments in a court of law? Is that ok too?"Uh... no?
I like that you need to make that jump, though, to maintain any sort of case against Santa Claus. It just implies what I think, and why I think this article is silly: mistletoe doesn't equal Jesus Christ.
"Overtly religious displays on public property is tyranny of the majority"
Public property is itself the real tyranny.
But you're in the "rational minority," right? I'm sure you're all over this.
MP | December 24, 2008, 10:41am | #
Overtly religious displays on public property is tyranny of the majority, something the Constitution explicitly addresses.Oh my...the majority is making me see something that's not in line with my belief set! Oh, the humanity!
Tyranny is typically associated with force. Calling a public display "forced imagery" is stretching the meaning of "force" beyond any usefulness. The economic angle I can sympathize with. But most public displays are private donations, so there typically isn't an economic angle to whine about.
Maybe I'm just not as thin-skinned as the Jacobs and eds of the world.
Mad Max | December 24, 2008, 10:46am | #
I hope that everyone has a Merry Christmas and a Happy Chanukkah - those twin holidays celebrating the victory of monotheism over pagan superstition.Ho, ho, ho!
MNG | December 24, 2008, 10:48am | #
When I saw the post topic I said "surely Mad Max has commented."It's nice to know some things in life one can reliably count on.
You know though Max might be right about this annoying seperation of church and state. I mean remember the good old days when you could, on Christams, talk about Jesus around a fire without anyone getting all upset?
Did I mention there was a heretic in the fire?
Merry Christmas to all!
MNG | December 24, 2008, 10:53am | #
I don't know Yerbaff, I always wanted to know how Tim Allen did that stuff he did in that movie.MNG | December 24, 2008, 10:54am | #
That sappy Christmas shoes song bring this to mind:"I cried when I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet. And then I laughed REALLY hard."
Episiarch | December 24, 2008, 10:58am | #
As best as I can do related to Christianity:"Orlando, you can't be a pilgrim. The pilgrims had snowy white skin to match their pure Christian souls. They didn't sacrifice coconuts to their monkey gods."
Dale Innis | December 24, 2008, 10:58am | #
I found this post utterly clueless and repellent. How can people "pretend" to be celebrating a secular holiday, when "the" reason for the season is your particular god-myth? Well excuuuuuuse me! Some of us like celebrating the Solstice, the secular fact that in the hemisphere we live in it's now the darkest part of the year, and now the days will be getting longer. People have been celebrating this in all sorts of ways, secular and religious, since long before your particular religion was invented, and although your authorities have tried really hard to co-opt it (including forging the birth-date of your "savior") that doesn't mean that your little story is "the real reason" for the celebration, and the rest of us are just "pretending".What a dolt.
dhex | December 24, 2008, 11:03am | #
"Steven Segal made a perfect movie to be a shitty movie for us, so that in Steven Segal we might become the awesomeness of Steven Segal."actually, this is entirely true, and that movie's name is above the law.
and our lord sayeth:
"hey! whose hot dog is this?"
and then flingeth it over his shoulder.
joe | December 24, 2008, 11:05am | #
those twin holidays celebrating the victory of monotheism over pagan superstition.Uh huh, "victory."
Tonight, I'm going to go a Christian mass, at which the priest will intone "Today, we celebrate light coming into the world."
Mission Accomplished, Paganism is in its last throes.
BDB | December 24, 2008, 11:08am | #
And he will also offer a blood sacrifice at an altar.rob | December 24, 2008, 11:11am | #
JC, JS, WTF?!?X-Mas these days is more secular than religious.
Even my wife and her entire extended Jewish family loves Christmas - but it's not like they've converted they just like the tree and the presents and the Christmas Dinner...
I'd take any excuse to have a day off, no matter how silly, even if I wasn't going to get presents. If Islam had a holiday that celebrated the birth of the baby Mohammed that gave me a day off I'd celebrate it, too.
In fact, I'd be overjoyed at the opportunity to take a week off for X-Mas, another week off for Hannukah, another week off for Kwanzaa, a month off for Ramadan... And I'd be a lot more positively disposed toward the religions of the world if they'd line their calendars up to make sure that these dates were always consecutive but not overlapping.
As I mentioned in Beato's Christmas thread, it really is more secular than not. But on the flipside, Sullum is right in that it does have religious elements still uncomfortably lingering for some. I don't really like governmental support for the specific religious elements of the holiday, however. I wouldn't care about Santa but mangers and menorahs are over my limit. In the end, though, I don't really care because of all the fights to pick, this really isn't one of them. The only thing I could relate to is the story that Sullum told, regarding his child being taught traditions that he does not support in school. This would bother the crap out of me, but the rest I can take.
Mad Max | December 24, 2008, 11:15am | #
MNG,Heretics roasting on an open fire
Flames are licking at their nose . . .
Mad Max | December 24, 2008, 11:16am | #
joe,I hardly denied that paganism has a *temporary* ascendancy in many places.
Max, that's been the Catholic rite at Christmas mass for centuries.
BDB | December 24, 2008, 11:37am | #
Mad Max walked right into that one!Dale Innis | December 24, 2008, 11:43am | #
lol now I'm looking for the Delete button. :) Having read the piece now (rather than just the blurb), I see that Sullum isn't speaking as a Christian himself; the "reason for the season" isn't *his* religion, it's the religion of those guys over there. Still wrong, but not quite as maddening; I would take back that "dolt".The "Christmas tree" is not a Christian symbol. Why would it be? Not alot of Scotch Pines or Blue Spruce in Bethlehem as far as I know. Evergreens are emblematic of the fact that life continues through the winter, that there is Spring coming. No particular deity involved. Christian symbols shouldn't be allowed to sneak into the public arena disguised as secular ones; but if we can work on wresting some of the truly secular symbols away from the grubby hands of Christian co-optation, I think it's a good thing.
I wonder why nobody gets their panties in a wad about Easter bunnies and baskets. I mean trees, bunnies, and baskets seem to contain equal parts Jesus if you remove their religious descriptors beforehand.
Spring is coming, as good as that is, is still no reason to bring a tree indoors. Decorate outdoor trees to your heart's content, but that first guy that brought a tree into the house better have a good explanation for it when I catch up to him in hell.
BDB | December 24, 2008, 12:02pm | #
Will the War on Christmas have a Surge?robc | December 24, 2008, 12:02pm | #
Dale,Good thing I read to the bottom before calling you an idiot. You did it yourself. Good job.
Erÿk Gabhran Boston, Esq. | December 24, 2008, 12:09pm | #
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced with the most enjoyable traditions of religious persuasion or secular practices of your choice with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. We also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make our country great (not to imply that the United States is necessarily greater than any other country) and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms: This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.
Disclaimer: No trees were harmed in the sending of this message; however, a significant number of electrons were slightly inconvenienced.
mlaw.org
Reinmoose | December 24, 2008, 12:14pm | #
I thought Santa Claus secularized Christmas, not "winter holiday season" trees/parties/events, etc.Anyway, I'm not sure secularized is the right word for what has happened to Christmas. I think it's more appropriate to talk about the cultural rituals that take place as a result of it, cultural rituals that have positively no religious meaning to most people who participate in them.
Egg nog?
Shopping?
Baby it's cold outside?
Cellophane-wrapped mugs filled with candies?
Christmas lights? (which are pretty, esp. with snow) I think they'd put those up even if there was no christmas.
Santa Claus?
The most religious stimulation most people (even real Christians) get around this time is the Christmas eve service they attend, maybe some other choir/organ/bell concert, saying a prayer at said service, and maybe eating the chocolates out of their advent calendar. Am I wrong?
J sub D | December 24, 2008, 12:20pm | #
I've had too much eggnog to detail how everybody on this thread has Xmas all screwed up.< ;-)>>>
To my friends and adversaries (some I place in both categories) at H&R:
Merry Christmas. Peace on Earth and goodwill towards men.
Argue with that, bitches!
Believing in Santa is just a trial run with positive reinforcement for believing in Jesus.
Cabeza De Vaca | December 24, 2008, 12:33pm | #
If you rearrange the letters in Santa you come up with Satan. Santa is the devil!!!ed | December 24, 2008, 12:39pm | #
MP | December 24, 2008, 10:41am | #Oh my...the majority is making me see something
Your reading comprehension skills need some work, MP. I said I had no problem with anyone (majority or minority) hanging tacky religious shit all over their own property. But when they hang it on public property, they are not only making me see it, they are making me pay for it. That's what reasonable people object to.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Michael Solana | December 24, 2008, 10:39am | #
But you're in the "rational minority," right?
That is amply demonstrated by my comments, and yours.
Fred Phelps | December 24, 2008, 1:03pm | #
"J sub D | December 24, 2008, 12:20pm | #Merry Christmas. Peace on Earth and goodwill towards men.
Argue with that, bitches!"
I will!
Here's what the Westboro Baptist Church wants to post on a sign at the Washington state capitol:
"Santa Claus Will Take You to Hell"
"You'd better watch out, get ready to cry,
You'd better go hide, I'm telling you why
'cuz Santa Claus will take you to hell.
"He is your favorite idol, you worship at his feet,
but when you stand before your God
He won't help you take the heat.
"So get this fact straight: you're feeling God's hate,
Santa's to blame for the economy's fate,
Santa Claus will take you to hell.
"Don't leave your kids with this red fright
Just like the priests he'll rape 'em at night
Oh Santa Clause will take you to hell.
"You tell the children he is real,
You know that's just a lie,
To justify your own vile sins
That's the only reason why.
"So get this fact straight, you're feelin' God's hate
Santa's to blame for the dead soldier's fate
Santa Claus will take you to hell."
Reinmoose | December 24, 2008, 1:10pm | #
Fred - that's awesome. But where's the part about Santa being a gay-lover?Fred Phelps | December 24, 2008, 1:14pm | #
Santa is a fag-enabler and a pedophile.(He really said this)
icetrey | December 24, 2008, 1:16pm | #
Hey, Festivus IS a real holiday. If real people, really celebrate it, they do, then it becomes real. Don't be knocking Festivus or I'll hit you with my Festivus pole. Peace on Earth be damned.joe | December 24, 2008, 1:19pm | #
Decorate outdoor trees to your heart's content, but that first guy that brought a tree into the house better have a good explanation for it when I catch up to him in hell.What? WHAT?
I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE SHOP VAC!
Reptilian Overlord | December 24, 2008, 1:43pm | #
Peace on earth is coming.Just as soon as I can get you humans to completely annihilate yourselves. Now, drop that eggnog, and get back to work on the Hadron Collider!
Chop chop!
Lefiti | December 24, 2008, 1:44pm | #
Libertarianism is as much a religion as Christianity or Judaism and needs a winter solstice holiday of its own so that all the Christians and Jews who have compromised their religious principles to embrace libertarianism can feel some sense of community together with their fellow apostates. Happy Privatization Day!J sub D | December 24, 2008, 1:50pm | #
Fred Phelps | December 24, 2008, 1:03pm | #J sub D | December 24, 2008, 12:20pm | #
Merry Christmas. Peace on Earth and goodwill towards men.
Argue with that, bitches!I will! [followed by a lengthy non sequitor]
Andrew G. | December 24, 2008, 2:12pm | #
I like to greet people with a hearty "Io, Saturnalia!" during the holiday season. :)Though that's on the 17th, the 25th is Dies Natalis Solis Invicti.
Lefiti | December 24, 2008, 2:20pm | #
Rabbi Hanina said, "Pray for the welfare of the government, for were it not for the government, people would eat each other alive."Milton Friedman said, "Fuck Rabbi Hanina."
James Anderson Merritt | December 24, 2008, 2:37pm | #
We might be able to get this world spinning on the right track again if we could put Marduk back into Zagmuk!See http://knudsensnews.blogspot.com/2007/12/remember-when-zagmuk-used-to-mean.html
J sub D | December 24, 2008, 2:46pm | #
Rabbi Hanina said, "Pray for the welfare of the government, for were it not for the government, people would eat each other alive."LBJ, Roger B. Taney, Andrew Jackson, ... and more recently, Kwame Kilpatrick, Rod Blagojevich, Ted Stevens, ...
Milton Friedman said, "Fuck Rabbi Hanina."
Thank god for our overlords, I only wish that there was a hell.
Christmas is both a religious and a secular holiday. Santa Claus has nothing to do with the Nativity story. Some people celebrate the modern version of the pagan holiday for the winter solstice; some people worship the alleged birth of Jesus; most do a bit of both.
prolefeed | December 24, 2008, 3:03pm | #
Damn server squirrels!Take two:
Rabbi Hanina said, "Pray for the welfare of the government, for were it not for the government, people would eat each other alive."
Insert bad Monica Lewinsky joke here.
Richard Stands | December 24, 2008, 3:04pm | #
Presuming that the displays are funded with private money, it seems more like a mild tragedy of the commons than a first amendment issue. I see it as mild in that the tragedy only leads to aesthetic "destruction", rather than anything significantly physical.Less public land would help mitigate cases like this. Religious displays on private land are apt to fuel far less controversy.
Still, as long as we've opened the public land to everyone's use, I'd make a small donation to a Wiccan Great Rite display.
A Bold Fresh Piece of Human Excrement | December 24, 2008, 3:12pm | #
But the folks love Christmas and will go to any length to use government to enshrine Christianity as the official mandated state religion!Buy my book, you pinheads!
Your Good Buddy Johnny Clarke | December 24, 2008, 3:26pm | #
And on this Christmas eve let us not forget that our good, God-fearin' country has its army in various places throughout the world killin' folks who need killing. Because Jesus is love. Or something.Seamus | December 24, 2008, 3:30pm | #
Overtly religious displays on public property is tyranny of the majority, something the Constitution explicitly addresses.The constitution at best *implicitly* addresses the tyranny of the majority. Unless, of course, you think Tocqueville wrote the constitution.
ed | December 24, 2008, 4:28pm | #
ex·plic·itPronunciation: ik-ˈspli-sət
Function: adjective
Etymology: French or Medieval Latin; French explicite, from Medieval Latin explicitus, from Latin, past participle of explicare
Date: 1607
1 a: fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity : leaving no question as to meaning or intent
I understand the meaning of the First Amendment, Seamus. Do you? Or would you rather argue endlessly over the exact meaning of words? "Establishment" is very clear to me. Or to put it more plainly: I know it when I see it. Erecting a manger scene on public property, with (or without) public funding, is clearly "establishment", if not by edict, then at least by intent.
dr | December 24, 2008, 4:29pm | #
The libertarian dream of totally neutral public property will never ever happen. It's worth mentioning in a footnote, not worth trying to establish. It won't happen. It won't.People do and always will like for the state to commemorate things the people like. Always. Libertarians will never win on this. Ever ever. Ever. Won't happen. Give up.
Anyway, I'm an atheist but I have no problem with ceremonial Christianity. All that it takes is for the Supreme Court to say "Ceremonial acknowledgement of the majority religion does not violate the First Amendment" and *poof* it magically doesn't. That's how the vague provisions of the Constitution work.
J sub D | December 24, 2008, 4:35pm | #
Erecting a manger scene on public property, with (or without) public funding, is clearly "establishment", if not by edict, then at least by intent.I'm an unabasheed atheist. I dislike Hello Kitty too. I don't fret about either being in the Thanksgiving Day parade though.
Short version - Get over it.
Rose | December 24, 2008, 4:59pm | #
Oh, for Pete's sake!Christmas has something to do with Jesus Christ. That's kind of hard to miss, though Jacob Sullum seems to think we need his diamond prose to remind us of that fact.
Lots of Christmassy traditions have very little to do with Jesus Christ. That's also no secret, though we seem to need a hundred posts of debate to remind us of that fact. To each his own.
Merry Christmas, already! Trim the tree if you have one, or go out for Chinese food and a movie if you're old school that way, eat a few too many cookies, and be kind and take care of yourselves! Good will towards men, right?
Aresen | December 24, 2008, 4:59pm | #
Eat hearty.Drink deep.
Have fun.
If you want to do it because it is Christ's birthday, the Winter Solstice, the election of B.O., whatever, I'll join in for the fun.
Terrell Perry | December 24, 2008, 6:13pm | #
The authors of the statement “Imagine No Religion” has also been also been accused of blasphemy during this season that many claim belong to Christ. However, someone reading "Imagine No Religion” on a billboard will note there is no answer given. One is left to ones own conclusion, and it is quite possible that one could come up with the answer: Without religion, the world would be a dystopia. So, I suspect that any fear generated by the message is that many, even believers, would come to the conclusion that the world would be a better place without religion. And surely, if these people and certainly impressionable young people come to believe this, then they may start to question other types of authority and associated beliefs. They will want things to change in the Government also. I am surprised that Homeland Security allowed the message to be posted.Lefiti | December 24, 2008, 6:39pm | #
Jesus said, "The meek will inherit the earth."Ayn Rand said, "The Meek won't inherit shit."
And I thought you criticised libertarians for being the ones not in touch with reality, Lefiti.
Lefiti | December 24, 2008, 6:58pm | #
I'm just breakin' your balls, dbcooper. Merry Christmas (or Hanukkah, or whatever).| December 24, 2008, 9:09pm | #
Erecting a manger scene on public property, with (or without) public funding, is clearly "establishment", if not by edict, then at least by intent.Yeah? Well, Merry Christmas to you, too, asshole!
Mad Max | December 24, 2008, 10:18pm | #
"Today, we celebrate light coming into the world."Yes, self-evidently pagan. I'm surprised I never noticed it before.
Merry Christmas!
Mad Max | December 24, 2008, 10:20pm | #
Pagans have *always* believed that Christ is the Light coming into the world. I just never connected the dots before.endless_Ike | December 25, 2008, 3:14am | #
you guys are fighting the wrong fight, and its not even closepiperTom | December 25, 2008, 8:59am | #
Axial tilt is the reason for the season.Shahmen of every sort attach myths to this (and everything). It's a big holiday because of the commercial aspects.
Mad Max | December 25, 2008, 11:53am | #
The Akathist hymn to the Virgin Mary, sung in Byzantine Catholic churches during the Easter season, hails the Blessed Virgin as "you who cleansed us from the stain of pagan worship."http://www.byzantines.net/liturgy/akathist.htm
Merry Christmas, everyone!
GMack | December 25, 2008, 12:12pm | #
Happy Festivus to All. And to all...well I have to many grievances to air ranging from the election of Obama to the influence of the religious right in public policyu to corporate welfare bailouts to the passage of Prop 8 in my home state of California.I will close my abbreviated grievances with the words of Hank Williams Jr...."Are you ready for some football?"
GMack | December 25, 2008, 12:15pm | #
Oh, and one other grievance to air....Joe Biden: Drug Warrior and Patriot Act Head Cheerleader...need I say more?
Onward to The Feats of Strength!
bright | December 25, 2008, 1:53pm | #
You send your kid to government school? Why not one of those atheist private schools where she can learn the freethinking fundamentals?dhex | December 25, 2008, 5:14pm | #
"The Akathist hymn to the Virgin Mary, sung in Byzantine Catholic churches during the Easter season, hails the Blessed Virgin as "you who cleansed us from the stain of pagan worship.""whatever helps you sleep at night, heathen.
Mad Max | December 25, 2008, 5:22pm | #
dhexIs there any particular reason why some H&R posters are celebrating Christmas by trying to channel Ian Paisley?
Mad Max | December 25, 2008, 5:36pm | #
Paisley panics about the Papacy's 'pagan priesthood'.Good thing the H&R community is ready to leap to the barricades in defense of fundamentalist Protestantism!
Justen | December 25, 2008, 5:49pm | #
"Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers, that it move not" (Jeremiah 10:2-4)The tree is definitely not a Christian symbol, in fact it's precisely contrary to their teachings to keep one. Not that religious people have a habit of being very familiar with their own myths anyway, but if the government is endorsing anything it's endorsing the Paganistic roots of the white Europeans who founded the country. Though I'm sure they're not aware of that fact either.
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule
The whole argument is stupid anyway. Regardless of the roots or meaning of Christmas, we all know exactly what is is today: a commercial holiday to pad profits. Doesn't get much more capitalist than that, so go buy buy buy and stop complaining complaining complaining, right?!
Mad Max | December 25, 2008, 6:22pm | #
Justen,You're quite right, we need fewer Christmas trees in public places and more creches.
Metal Messiah | December 25, 2008, 8:02pm | #
One thing that I've never understood is that if Christians hate the government so much, why do they want it promoting their religion.Warren | December 25, 2008, 11:32pm | #
Stick to drugs Jacob. When writing as a Jew you're a total asshat.JOYOUS SOLSTICE EVERYONE
Justen, find me a few more passages like that, and you might make a Christian out of me yet. Dressing down ritual and bashing worthless jobs programs is God at his best.
A Pagan in peril | December 26, 2008, 4:30pm | #
JSH: You are my hero!Thank you for mentioning Mithras!
Can you Imagine if Mithra's had won? we'd all be slaughtering a Bull and eating stake on Dec 21st instead of Fruit cake on the 24th!
--
"The idea of achieving security through national armament is, at the present state of military technique, a disastrous illusion." -Albert Einstein
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/
ed | December 26, 2008, 6:41pm | #
you guys are fighting the wrong fight, and its not even closeThere's only one? Which, pray tell?
Sean Stromsten | December 28, 2008, 10:23am | #
It's possible for atheists to celebrate Christmas, and even sing Christmas carols about Jesus; my family does it every year. We like it. It's fun. The magic Jesus in Christmas is just as real as the ghosts in Halloween, and so what?Nationalisms are religions, too, but I don't think states will stop celebrating national holidays any time soon.
Sean Stromsten has it exactly right. Superstitious types want a holiday? Fine. Atheists can sing harmony and gather up families too. As the song has it, we'll be "laughing all the way."