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From our December issue, Associate Editor Katherine Mangu-Ward offers a guided tour of the anti-authoritarian universe of Tor Books, the world's most successful science fiction publisher.
New at Reason: Katherine Mangu-Ward on Science Fiction Publisher Tor Books
Comments to "New at Reason: Katherine Mangu-Ward on Science Fiction Publisher Tor Books":
Old Bull Lee | November 13, 2008, 12:11pm | #
And somebody was complaining here the other day about how libertarian blog comment threads end up derailing into sci-fi discussions!Excellent article.
robc | November 13, 2008, 12:22pm | #
I havent been following my Nivenania (is that the right term?). I didnt know about Fleet of Worlds. Good thing I have some Amazon Gift Certificates looking for a purpose.Naga Sadow | November 13, 2008, 12:44pm | #
Good article. Kinda saddened that Verner Vinge didn't make it into the article though.James Anderson Merritt | November 13, 2008, 12:59pm | #
I enjoyed this article. I paid particular attention to the following line: "Themes of colonialism and political oppression run through Buckell’s books, which isn’t surprising: He was born in Grenada in 1979 and grew up in the messy aftermath of a communist coup."Although I haven't produced any books (yet?!) I was born in California in 1957 and grew up in the messy aftermath of a communist coup. The parallels encourage me...
Sincerely, thanks for the entertainment and information, Katherine! Now I have a reason to return to NYC and see the Flatiron building.
Much of libertarianism-goes-to-space is a reflection of its impossibility in a world full of people content to run the gamut from sub-par to mediocre.
T | November 13, 2008, 1:04pm | #
Kinda saddened that Verner Vinge didn't make it into the article though.Yeah, Vinge didn't but crazy old socialist Ken MacLeod did. What, what?
zoltan | November 13, 2008, 1:40pm | #
Larry Niven sucks balls. Please go back to English class and learn characterization.Pro Libertate | November 13, 2008, 2:05pm | #
zoltan,I like Niven. Is he the grand master of literature? No. But I've enjoyed a number of his books. My knock on him is that he hasn't wowed me in decades, but that's not uncommon for authors. Did Mailer write much good after The Naked and the Dead?
James Anderson Merritt | November 13, 2008, 2:11pm | #
# ed | November 13, 2008, 1:01pm | ## The best sci-fi underplays the sci and
# focuses on the fi.
I would say that, in the best SF, the S is "just there," and it is through characters' routine use and reactions to the S throughout the F that the reader comprehends it. That's been my experience, anyway.
Two things I can't stand in SF: 1) theoretical or operational discussions, thinly, unsuccessfully disguised as dialog or exposition; 2) characters continuing throughout to describe SF implements or technologies by their unwieldy full names, e.g., "hypospray" ("hypo" "hype" or even the by-then-archaic "hypodermic" make more sense) "Tarkalian Tea" (why doesn't the tea have a name of its own? And how often do even we say "French Fries" in everyday conversation?), "photon torpedo" (it's a "torpedo" or even a "torp" -- the old fashioned kind of torpedo is the thing that needs the modifier), "sonic shower" ("shower" is fine). The list could go on and on. I'm sure everyone here has their favorites. I pick on "Star Trek" here because it's pervasive and big enough to take a hit without damage, and because, in spite of its glaring faults, I have great affection for it.
Pain | November 13, 2008, 2:25pm | #
The best sci-fi underplays the sci and# focuses on the fi.
I would say that, in the best SF, the S is "just there," and it is through characters' routine use and reactions to the S throughout the F that the reader comprehends it. That's been my experience, anyway.
Two things I can't stand in SF: 1) theoretical or operational discussions, thinly, unsuccessfully disguised as dialog or exposition; 2) characters continuing throughout to describe SF implements or technologies by their unwieldy full names, e.g., "hypospray" ("hypo" "hype" or even the by-then-archaic "hypodermic" make more sense) "Tarkalian Tea" (why doesn't the tea have a name of its own? And how often do even we say "French Fries" in everyday conversation?), "photon torpedo" (it's a "torpedo" or even a "torp" -- the old fashioned kind of torpedo is the thing that needs the modifier), "sonic shower" ("shower" is fine). The list could go on and on. I'm sure everyone here has their favorites. I pick on "Star Trek" here because it's pervasive and big enough to take a hit without damage, and because, in spite of its glaring faults, I have great affection for it.
Along the same lines. Can't remember who said it. Poul Anderson maybe. But he said when writing sci-fi or fantasy you should always call a rabbit a rabbit. If you call it a "snarkelhorn" or some other gibberish you're just making things difficult to read.
Pro Libertate | November 13, 2008, 2:32pm | #
The door dilated.robc | November 13, 2008, 2:42pm | #
Niven is about location, not characterization. When you realize that the protagonist is the environment and what that will lead to society-wise, the lack of character development bothers you much less.People who demand good character development are single dimensional readers.
Although they're more cosmic thriller than SF, the Repairman Jack novels by F. Paul Wilson are conspicuous by they're absence in any article about Tor's anti-authoritarian leanings. Wilson won the 1st Prometheus Award and Repairman Jack has been called "a libertarian's wet dream."
Hogan | November 13, 2008, 2:59pm | #
Did Mailer write much good after The Naked and the Dead?i think there's a very good, much shorter book buried somewhere in The Executioner's Song that could have been excavated by a good editor. And it's been a long time since I've read them, but I seem to recall Armies of Night and Why are We in Vietnam both being quite good.
Hogan | November 13, 2008, 3:00pm | #
though neither were at naked and dead levelsPro Libertate | November 13, 2008, 3:07pm | #
Mailer defies editors.Actually, I didn't mean to suggest that he never wrote another decent book; I just meant that he peaked a long time ago.
Jim Bob | November 13, 2008, 3:14pm | #
The best sci-fi underplays the sci and focuses on the fi.As long as the writing is good, I think it can go either way. I enjoy so-called "hard" sci-fi because of my interest (if not ability) in math and physics, and some of the best sci-fi I have ever read (meaning, to me, that which set me thinking, and which inspired emotion in me) was hard, hard, hard on the sci.
First motherfucker drags out that "the best SF is about what it means to me human" bullshit gets a taser to the 'nads.
Dani Kollin | November 13, 2008, 4:17pm | #
My brother and I recently signed with Tor and have our first book due for release this March. (The Unincorporated Man). Trying to make the Libertarian or even - heaven forbid - Republican argument with most of my friends almost always degenerates into abject frustration on my part and shocked expressions on theirs (Yes, I could pick new friends but the truth is I like to argue). Our novel has allowed us to make our case as to what we feel the true nature of liberty and freedom is without being interrupted, shot down or called bigoted fascists. As Mr. Doherty rightly points out, the story had better be there and writing a one-sided argument doesn't qualify. However, having a nice rational argument (finally!) with a really good bad guy does. Lots of things exploding also help.Dani Kollin
Author
www.theunincorporatedman.com
Tom Jackson | November 13, 2008, 4:56pm | #
For any libertarian SF fans who might be interested in learning more: www.lfs.org. There's plenty of time to pay the modest membership fee and vote on next year's awards.robc | November 13, 2008, 5:19pm | #
First motherfucker drags out that "the best SF is about what it means to me human" bullshit gets a taser to the 'nads.Of course. The best SF is about what it means to be a robot.
JW | November 13, 2008, 5:31pm | #
I havent been following my Nivenania (is that the right term?). I didnt know about Fleet of Worlds. Good thing I have some Amazon Gift Certificates looking for a purpose.I just picked it up, but I'm only about a 1/4 way through; my craps aren't as long they used to be.
Not too bad for his new stuff; interesting background on the Puppeteers. I didn't care for the last Ringworld novel. Bought it, read about 100 pages and put it down for good.
Jeff P | November 13, 2008, 5:51pm | #
I liked Fleet of Worlds because it portrayed the Puppeteers and complete assholes. I've never read a more compellingly racist book.economist | November 13, 2008, 7:06pm | #
The best Sci-Fi is about what it means to be a sentient computer.Free Luna!
Neu Mejican | November 13, 2008, 7:16pm | #
Psshawww.Any discussion of Tor, Science Fiction, and politics that doesn't even mention Samuel R Delany isn't a serious discussion.
Trouble on Triton: An Ambiguous Heterotopia (1976)
Is one of the more serious attempts to examine what a libertarian society would actual look like...of course that particular title is on Bantam (did Tor do a re-issue?).
More on the book: http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=3777
Neu Mejican | November 13, 2008, 7:37pm | #
Dormouse | November 13, 2008, 6:41pm | #^^
The best scifi is about what it means to be.
The best scifi is about what it means.
Neu Mejican | November 13, 2008, 7:46pm | #
Delany's own thoughts.http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/delany52interview.htm
Speaking of Triton, personally I know perfectly well I can't detail the government that would produce that collection of communes and co ops, with family units at the outer rim and singles in the inner city, with the social interplay between a licensed and an unlicensed sector....But the book makes some guesses. And one guess is that the governmental structure will have to be at least as rich and imaginative and plural as the life structure of the citizens. But I can't—nor would I try to—specify that political structure in a novel, down to every governmental office and how it relates to every other.
To find such a political structure, we'd have to try things out—and, far more important, be ready to revise our political structure when it didn't work out the way we wanted.
And that, more than anything else, is what makes the enterprise fundamentally anti utopian/dystopian. Because a utopia (or dystopia) starts with a political structure that is self evidently—at least to the architect—superior (or inferior) to the existing one.
Neu Mejican | November 13, 2008, 7:51pm | #
A further nugget to entice the Heinleinatarians...This is very different—I hope—from the rhetorical strategy shared by Heinlein and the Stalinist...
The reason bloggers really need to do some research on the politics of Cory Doctorow before splattering his words all over on "the #1 libertarian blog" on the internet.
BlueBook | November 13, 2008, 8:45pm | #
The best SF is about what it means to be a hot lesbian gynoid.the OverKiller | November 13, 2008, 10:42pm | #
Dani, good luck to you and your brother. Is this the first thing you've had published?zoltan | November 13, 2008, 11:03pm | #
robc, no need to be a stupid dick. I read a lot of sci-fi and Niven's grasp of the English language and storytelling skills (and his aforementioned lack of characterization) all contributed to my reaction after reading Ringworld: throwing it across the room. I'm just more of a Gibson fan. But hey, you can think not liking one-dimensional characters is one-dimensional, have fun with that.zoltan | November 13, 2008, 11:04pm | #
Trying to make the Libertarian or even - heaven forbid - Republican argument with most of my friends almost always degenerates into abject frustration on my part and shocked expressions on theirsRepublican arguments degenerate on their own without much help. It's sad, though, that your friends don't understand libertarianism.
Dan Clore | November 13, 2008, 11:12pm | #
Readers might like to check out my Nolan Chart column "Essential Science Fiction and Fantasy for Libertarians":http://www.nolanchart.com/article4700.html
Anders Monsen | November 14, 2008, 12:00am | #
Very nice article, with an illuminating insight into Tor's editorial policy. Let me hasten to add that the idea for the quote from me about "death and taxes" really originates from something F. Paul Wilson said in a speech back in 1983. His words about libertarian futurists has stuck in mind all these years, and if I failed to attribute the source to Wilson when Katherine interviewed me for the article, I sincerely apologize.As far as other libertarian writers, certainly Vernor Vinge comes to mind. He has published many books through Tor, and also won both the Hugo and Prometheus Award for several of his books. I'd also like to mention Victor Koman, whose novel Kings of the High Frontier should have received far more attention when it appeared in print in the late 1990s.
As far as my comments about the market moving on, I said this with a large degree of sadness. L. Neil Smith continues to write great fiction-- his novel The Probability Broach is a classic, but he has published more than 20 novels since that first book--and there are other libertarian minded writers who also deserve readers and publishers. Smith's latest projects include the brilliant alternate history graphic novel, Roswell, Texas, which was published this year by Big Head Press.
Eric Haskell | November 14, 2008, 3:18am | #
While not technically science fiction, some of the best libertarian books - indeed the ones that formed much of my world view as a teenager - are Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series, published by Tor.flix | November 14, 2008, 6:42am | #
second the motion- Vernor vinge should definitely be there.Across Realtime (including The Ungoverned)
A Deepness in the Sky....
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater | November 14, 2008, 4:41pm | #
Stainless Steel Rat ftw..Clark E Myers | November 14, 2008, 11:50pm | #
There is no Hayden tout court. Much of the article gets it right with Nielsen Hayden“A lot of the story of Tor,” says Nielsen Hayden, “is Tom Doherty refusing to be only a science fiction and fantasy line. And yet we’ve managed to be huge in science fiction anyway.”
Some of the article gets it wrong with Hayden tout court which should be Nielsen Hayden
"But even when writing in a rage, Hayden says, MacLeod"
An easy correction and arguably and example of how important a good editor can be.
What's ironic about this is that science fiction has all but died as a genre. You'd be hard pressed to name any recent science fiction author of note with any popular standing.
SplendaFree | November 15, 2008, 4:43pm | #
I do not care for libertarian SF for one simple reason -- I had never seen any that was remotely plausible.SugarFree was quite correct in this observation: Much of libertarianism-goes-to-space is a reflection of its impossibility in a world full of people content to run the gamut from sub-par to mediocre.
But the corollary to it is: What makes you think people in space will be any different?
In my teens and early twenties I used to love Heinlein. What spoiled his books for me was the realization that human beings do not act that way! Well, some do, but far too few to make Heinlein's societies possible.
The most egregious example of such is "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress." When people are thrown together with no laws, they DO NOT work like beavers to build productive businesses, respect each other's rights and individuality, and fight together to preserve their freedom. What really happens is few strong ruthless and charismatic individuals emerge as leaders, and the rest join up with them for protection. IOW, they form gangs/tribes, most if not all of them open to outside influence and bribery.
When men greatly outnumber women, women are NOT placed on a pedestal, given complete control over their sexuality, and collectively protected by all the men. Instead, they become property. And in the above situation, women would become, essentially, prizes in gang warfare.
I do not know whether Heinlein realized the impossibility of TMIAHM society (and many others he created). He either never understood, or refused to accept that most human beings value security over freedom (Jefferson's famous quote notwithstanding).
My favorite SF writer is Alastair Reynolds. Ken MacLeod's line "you get a sense that the future will be full of quite diverse political systems" certainly applies to him -- Reynolds "Inhibitors" series is full of very different systems, some of which are impossible (yet) because their functioning requires citizens to be in constant communication via brain implants. But there is no sense that governments are automatically bad (although some are), or that untrammeled individualism is automatically good or desirable. I like that Reynolds was first (to the best of my knowledge) SF writer to portray humans merged in a Borg-like collective in a positive light. I am not saying this is something I expect or particularly want to see in real future, but it is exactly the kind of innovative idea I expect from today's SF writer. Imagining what society could be like if humans were [remade] different is one thing. Imagining what society could be like if humans were what author thinks/wishes they are, but actually are not, is another -- and not nearly as attractive to me.
Dani Kollin | November 18, 2008, 12:48pm | #
Re: Overkiller's question: is this my first novel? Technically, no. I've written a few children's books and am working on a non-SF YA book now (work for hire under my own name, though). This however is my first "real" novel (in the sense that if it sells I'll actually see some extra money!).Re: Zoltan's comment: "Republican arguments degenerate on their own without much help." Sadly, you are correct. In fact my favorite quote - attributed to my brother and co-author is "Republicans screw you by breaking their promises; Democrats screw you by keeping theirs". Still, there's something about a smarmy, "we need to enact these laws for your own good" liberal that pretty much always has me defending any adversarial position.
;-)
Dani