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Rev. Wright at the National Press Club

Sen. Barack Obama's controversial former pastor, Jermiah Wright, has recently concluded a speech at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. The AP's gloss:

"I served six years in the military," Barack Obama's longtime pastor said. "Does that make me patriotic? How many years did (Vice President Dick) Cheney serve?"

Wright spoke at the National Press Club before the Washington media and a supportive audience of black church leaders beginning a two-day symposium.

He said the black church tradition is not bombastic or controversial, but different and misunderstood by the "dominant culture" in the United States.

He said his Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago has a long history of liberating the oppressed by feeding the hungry, supporting recovery for the addicted and helping senior citizens in need. He said congregants have fought in the military, including in Afghanistan and Iraq.

"My goddaughter's unit just arrived in Iraq this week while those who call me unpatriotic have used their positions of privilege to avoid military service while sending over 4,000 American boys and girls to die over a lie," he said.

More here.

From a Wash Times article about a speech Wright gave yesterday in Detroit:

While the TV sound bites that were constantly played on news programs often used only brief parts of his most incendiary remarks, the full statements from which they were taken were often broadcast or published in full context by numerous newspaper and periodical accounts at the height of the controversy that they sparked last month in the senator's campaign.

Among the full statements Mr. Wright has made in his sermons:

· "The government gives [black men] drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people," he said in a 2003 sermon. "God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

· "We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," Mr. Wright said in a sermon five days after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost."

Questions remain about Mr. Obama's relationship with the church.

Mrs. Clinton of New York raised the issue in her campaign and in their last primary debate with Mr. Obama in Philadelphia.

For "Pastor Wright to have given his first sermon after 9/11 and to have blamed the United States for the attack ... would have been just intolerable for me. And, therefore, I would have not been able to stay in the church," she said.

More here.

For the curious, I recommend checking out the official version of the Wright-approved "Black Value System" which is a statement of principles for Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ. The BVS, among other things, pointedly rejects "the pursuit of middleclassness" as a strategy through which "captor" majorities neuter the threat of revolt by "captive" groups. The BVS represents a stark alternative to a more-integrationist model of social uplift of the sort originally espoused by the NAACP and others.

reason's Dave Weigel looked at the Wright-Obama kerfuffle here.

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Comments to "Rev. Wright at the National Press Club":

Neil | April 28, 2008, 10:08am | #

In the speech last night Rev. Wright actually said white and black peoples brains are different.

And Obama still wants to associate with this racist bigot?

Neil | April 28, 2008, 10:32am | #

Heres your precious link

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/04/at_detroit_naacp_wright_says_b.html

"He also devoted time to explanations on why black and whites learn differently (a left brain/right brain thing) and the black church."

He says we have different brains. yeah that will play real well with swing voters. Racist bigot.

fyodor | April 28, 2008, 11:24am | #

Neil,

Linky please?

not a racist, just funny | April 28, 2008, 11:24am | #

Good old "black work ethic." A g for a key or a ball for a hundred.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 11:25am | #

Nick,

I'm no defender of Wright, but I would note that the U.S. has a long tradition (at least in the Protestant churches) of calling down God's wrath upon (if that is what Wright is actually doing here - not quite sure) the polity until some reform of said polity is taken. This goes right back to nearly Plymouth Plantation and can be seen in declarations about the Peqout War, the French & Indian War, the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, various economic dislocations, etc.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 11:26am | #

He said the black church tradition is not bombastic or controversial, but different and misunderstood by the "dominant culture" in the United States.

After watching the whole sermon in context, I'd say that it was *willfully* misunderstood by members of the dominant culture. Being one of them, I find myself disgusted at the media for only taking the most emotionally charged sentences of the sermon out of context and then looping them endlessly to provoke outrage.

I mean, honestly, what is a more Christian message than "do not elevate nations as idols over God" and "violence begets violence to no good end"?

Mike C | April 28, 2008, 11:26am | #

I always thought Wright sounded like an angry Ron Paul.

Icl | April 28, 2008, 11:27am | #

He did not say that white and black peoples brains are different. He said that our cultural differences make us perceive language and music differently. He gave specific examples. As someone who studied ethnomusicology, I have to completely agree. The whole point of his speech was that different does not mean inferior.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 11:27am | #

fyodor,

Neil doesn't do linkies. He must think they are socialist or black magic or something equally sinister.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 11:27am | #

I cant find a transcript but in the speech he said white people are "left brain" and black people are "right brain".

If saying brains are different due to racist isnt bigoted I dont know what is. If a conservative said this hed be crucified by the MSM.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 11:28am | #

I always thought Wright sounded like an angry Ron Paul.

And is right about the same proportion of the time in their respective areas. (Like, somewhere in the mid 60%s).

Episiarch | April 28, 2008, 11:29am | #

Obama now has his own personal loose cannon (essentially) on staff, as the press now know that following Wright around is guaranteed story. Well done, Barack; you've managed to partially equal one of McCain's weak points--that he may fly off the handle and say something really stupid.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 11:30am | #

Wright is going to follow Obama right into his defeat this November.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 11:30am | #

Neil --

It occurs to me that I have done you a disservice by speaking for you on the issue of why you don't link.

What *is* your reason for not supporting your arguments with easily checkable facts?

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 11:30am | #

Nick,

In other words, Wright (from what little I know of him) appears to be part of a long tradition in American political, religious, etc. discourse. That the media hasn't picked on this is a bit odd to me.

hittin', runnin' and laughing | April 28, 2008, 11:32am | #

Godammit, Neil, you wanna come down off of that fucking cross?

Neil | April 28, 2008, 11:33am | #

I posted a link. Go up.

James Anderson Merritt | April 28, 2008, 11:34am | #

I'd like to see Rev. Wright debate Bill Cosby, given that the latter appears to be a champion of "middle-classness," although Mr. Cosby doesn't seem to agree on the neutering effect claimed by Wright.

Maybe this has already happened and if so, could anyone point me to a link with transcript or video?

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 11:34am | #

Nick,

Oh and the sort of historical analogy I am thinking of are those Protestant preachers who argued that one moral ill or another (slavery is one that comes to mind but there were others) was the cause of God's wrath as it was exercised through the Revolutionary War.

Episiarch | April 28, 2008, 11:36am | #

Something is funky with the reason servers and some posts are not showing up immediately, and then appear later in the correct place in the thread. I didn't see Neil's link until just now, but it was the second post. If he hadn't said to go back and look I would have never seen it because I assumed I already read that section of the thread.

Reason editors take note.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 11:38am | #

He look at this Obama lemmings:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428/ap_on_el_pr/presidential_race_ap_poll

fyodor | April 28, 2008, 11:41am | #

If a conservative said this hed be crucified by the MSM.

And defended by right-wing talk show hosts and bloggers. Yawn.

SugarFree | April 28, 2008, 11:43am | #

[grr] Raw meat! [grr]

The question is... which does Wright want more? A black president or the failed election of a black president so he can scream about it from the pulpit?

I think feminists come down hard on the "want woman president" side of the question over Clinton, but I'm really not sure about the Obama question. Many leaders in the black community see themselves as only being able to trade on rage. What does Obama really get them in the end as president?

Neil | April 28, 2008, 11:43am | #

"

The question is... which does Wright want more? A black president or the failed election of a black president so he can scream about it from the pulpit?"

Thats exactly right. Wright is going to sabatoge Obama so he can scream about how racist America is. Too perfect for my side LOL!

alan | April 28, 2008, 11:44am | #

Just stop it already with the pathetic justification of Wright. Some of you who routinely slam conspiracy theories let Wright off the hook for his statements on AIDS and CIA attempts to poison the black community with the influx of drugs.

If you want to see a slick politician/pastor in action, I urge you to find a transcript Wright's speech he made in New Orleans in the week after Katrina.

Obama had no business being associated with this bile filled idiot whether his motivation was cynical to help him get on the inside of Chicago's black political establishment, or if it really was the some search for authenticity he describes in his memoir, it showed an incredible lapse of judgment and good sense on his part.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 11:45am | #

Neil,

I'm not going to defend Obama but the Gallup tracking poll (http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm) doesn't show a gap remotely that large (as of the 26th at least).

Neil | April 28, 2008, 11:46am | #

Dont worry Alan Im sure Joe will be here soon to tell us how wonderful Wright's sermons are and how we just dont understand black culture.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 11:46am | #

alan,

Who here is justifying Wright exactly?

icl | April 28, 2008, 11:48am | #

Fyodor,
I don't remember right-wing talk show hosts criticizing McCain for his willful association with the real bigots such as Ross Parsley and John Hagee

Neil | April 28, 2008, 11:49am | #

McCain didnt sit in Hagee or Parsley's church for 20+ years and say he was their "Spiritual mentor" icl. Thats a BIG difference.

dbcooper | April 28, 2008, 11:49am | #

Have you been reading Salon SugarFree?

That was essentially the argument put forward by Joan Walsh.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/?last_story=/opinion/walsh/election_2008/2008/04/27/wright_moyers/

I can't help but wonder: Maybe Wright needs Obama to fail to justify his pessimistic view of American promise. The whole thing is very sad.

vanya | April 28, 2008, 11:52am | #

I understand why liberals should be suspicious of Obama for consorting with Wright, but I don't get why conservatives should be. Wright sounds like every other fundamentalist Christian preacher - white or black, they all basically follow the same tenets. If anything Wright should help Obama in the general, but a lot of Democrats should be wondering if they want to put someone with ties to a person as far rightwing as Wright in office.

Neu Mejican | April 28, 2008, 11:52am | #

Neil,

Any statement about "Right Brain" and "Left Brain" is being used metaphorically to talk about different learning styles. Culture and experience can be as much the source of different learning styles as underlying biology. Wright seems to be attributing differences to culture and making the point that different is different, not, to use his words "deficient."

His willingness to lump people into groups "black" and "white" and assume that says something important about their culture may be racist, but his discussion of learning styles doesn't seem to say what you seem to imply.

If it is legitimate to talk about "black culture" his comments are not controversial.

If it is not legitimate to talk about "black culture" his comments are part of that illegitimate discussion.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 11:53am | #

Neil,

So the length of relationship is the determining factor then? I'm not quite sure why.

icl | April 28, 2008, 11:54am | #

Neil,

McCain stood on stage next to Hagee and said that he was proud of his endorcement, and he did call Parsley his "spiritual advisor.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 11:54am | #

Calidore would you take your children to listen to someone like Rev. Wright? Would you? He took his SMALL CHILDREN to this mans sermons for years on end to hear anti-America, anti-white, anti-semitic, conspiracy theory rhetoric.

Did McCain ever take his children to a service like that? No, hes an Episcopalian.

What Obama did by taking his daughters there is borderline child abuse.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 11:54am | #

Just stop it already with the pathetic justification of Wright. Some of you who routinely slam conspiracy theories let Wright off the hook for his statements on AIDS and CIA attempts to poison the black community with the influx of drugs.

Um, it is not a conspiracy to say that the US government reacted with at least criminally negligent lethargy if not *intentional* lethargy when dealing with HIV/AIDS because in the beginning the disease seemed only to affect groups that polite white Christian people couldn't bring themselves to give a shit about, and its management required advocating things (like usage of *demon* condoms) that were ideologically inconvenient.

Compare, if you will, the government's treatment of HIV/AIDS with the "epidemics" of Legionnaire's Disease and Toxic Shock Syndrome. What you read should disgust you; I know if I were Wright, I'd be fucking pissed.

Who here is justifying Wright exactly?

I am, for one. I find the sound-bite view of his sermons and views that has been produced and propagated despicable and in need of some countering.

ed | April 28, 2008, 11:55am | #

What is it about "black culture" that makes them want to be yelled at by an angry maniac every Sunday? Any wonder it's "the most segregated hour of the week"?

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 11:56am | #

Neil,

Or let's put it this way: can you defend whatever statements McCain has made about Hagee?

joshua corning | April 28, 2008, 11:56am | #

"I served six years in the military," Barack Obama's longtime pastor said. "Does that make me patriotic?

So i guess now any criticism of the moonbat left by anyone is now an attack on their patriotism.

Anyway as the Rev swings at strawmen lets take a moment to remember that he sucks not cuz he is unpatriotic but because he spits hate and lies on a regular basis.

temporary k | April 28, 2008, 11:56am | #

One thing being missed in the whole Black Value System, Black Liberation Theology discussion is something Rev. Wright said explicitly in the Moyers interview and is obvious to anybody remotely connected to the Chicago Black community: Trinity is competing with the Nation Of Islam for believers. Black Christians have to deal with taunts of joining the "white man's religion" every day. Wright's "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian" mission statement has to be constantly defended on his home turf. To take that debate and equate it to the Prussian Blue fanbase - people who face zero persecution on a daily basis - is the sign of a partisan hack.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 11:56am | #

McCain didnt sit in Hagee or Parsley's church for 20+ years and say he was their "Spiritual mentor" icl. Thats a BIG difference.

Yeah, it's way worse. It means that McCain is willing to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with those who would twist the Christian tradition into hate-filled bile purely for political advantage, rather than because of some spiritual or historical affection.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 11:57am | #

Calidore McCain didn't sit in Hagee's church for 20+ years, get married there, have his children baptized there, bring his small children to listen to racist manicial screaming every Sunday.

So, no, its not the same thing. Get over it, because theres no equivalence here. NONE!

Neil | April 28, 2008, 11:58am | #

Did McCain name his book after one of Hagee's or Parsley's sermons? LOL!

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:00pm | #

Neil,

I'm not quite sure how Obama's relationship should be referenced in any defense of McCain and his relationship with Hagee.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:02pm | #

Calidore for the last time McCain was never a member of Hagee's Church. He didn't know about all the statements he made when he recieved his endorswement, which is entirely believeable because again he NEVER went to that church.

Obama, OTOH, was a member for 20+ years (and took his children to listen to) hate filled, anti-white, anti-semitic, anti-American sermons.

Whats more he gave hundereds of thousands of dollars to that church.

Did McCain donate to Hagaee or Paresley?

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 12:03pm | #

Calm down, Neil. Less exclamation points are good for the digestion.

Jim Bob | April 28, 2008, 12:04pm | #

I predict that, in response to this post, Obama will gain a few points in the polls.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:05pm | #

Neil,

I'm not quite sure why Obama's relationship should be referenced in any defense of McCain and his relationship with Hagee. Why should that be the case?

Please explain.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 12:05pm | #

Neil, every time you mention that McCain never went to Hagee's church, you reinforce the notion that McCain is a run-of-the-mill political whore who will cozy up to anyone purely for the votes.

I'd rather the guy who takes the good with the bad for twenty years than the guy who would sell his soul for a five-minute photo op with a snake.

javier | April 28, 2008, 12:05pm | #

I guess maybe I am a little cynical. But I understand why Obama continued to go to that church. I agree that wright is crazy. However, I have hung out with crazy people just so that I can get laid much less cinch up the black support in one of the largest urban areas in the country. Wright's church was the largest on the southside + Obama wanted the support of black southsiders = obama went to that church.

Jim Bob | April 28, 2008, 12:05pm | #

ethnomusicology

Uh-huh.

Neu Mejican | April 28, 2008, 12:06pm | #

Neil,

No matter how loud you scream it from the mountaintops, most people will not find Obama's association with Wright a big enough issue to prevent them from voting for him.

It is a deal breaker for you?

I doubt it, since you wouldn't have voted for him anyway. If someone is looking for an excuse not to vote for Obama, then Wright may work as a handy shorthand.

Obama is running for president, not Wright.
Most people recognize the importance of that distinction.

But, I guess, if that is the only dirt you got...throwing it with vigor is your only option.

Episiarch | April 28, 2008, 12:06pm | #

Isn't this entire discussion really just this, every single time?:

Neil's side: THIS IS GOING TO SINK OBAMA!

joe's side: NO IT'S NOT CHECK THE POLLS!

Neil's side: THIS POLL SAYS DOWN!

joe's side: THIS POLL SAYS NO CHANGE!

Neil's side: WRIGHT IS SCUM, WHY IS OBAMA WITH HIM?

joe's side: WHAT ABOUT MCCAIN?

Neil's side: IT'S NOT THE SAME!

joe's side: IT'S WORSE HE'S JUST AN OPPORTUNIST!

Neil's side: DOESN'T MATTER IT'LL STILL KILL HIM IN THE GENERAL!

joe's side: NO IT WON'T!

And then we have endless dueling poll links.

Naga Sadow | April 28, 2008, 12:07pm | #

As one who was raised deep woods baptist, I gotta ask. What's the problem with Wright? Sounds like a typical pastor to me. Fire and brimstone sells when your preaching from a pulpit.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:08pm | #

NM Ive talked to several Reagan Democrats who are deeply disturbed by his association with a racist preacher.

SugarFree | April 28, 2008, 12:08pm | #

dbcooper,

Thanks for the link, but it was really just a rather obvious observation on my part. That Wright keeps running his mouth is quite telling. It only hurts Obama, and anyone who cares about what Wright said/says wasn't and wouldn't go to his church anyway.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:09pm | #

Dislcaimer:

I probably won't be voting for either McCain or Obama in the general election.

dbcooper | April 28, 2008, 12:10pm | #

SugarFree, oh I quite agree with you. And I suspect we will see a LOT more of this over the course of the year ...

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:11pm | #

Yeah this will follow him all the way to November. Drip, drip, drip. Hes anchored to Wright like a ten ton weight and this will drown him in a sea of his own hateful racism.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 12:13pm | #

As one who was raised deep woods baptist, I gotta ask. What's the problem with Wright? Sounds like a typical pastor to me. Fire and brimstone sells when your preaching from a pulpit.

He's black and therefore scary. The funnier part is that the excited fire & brimstone stuff seems to be rarer from him than from many of his paler colleagues in the more colorful traditions.

Neu Mejican | April 28, 2008, 12:13pm | #

Neil,

And...?

Reagan Democrats may have been looking for an excuse not to support Obama, and can use the Wright controversy as a shorthand.

It will allow them to vote Republican without the potential guilt associated with crossing party lines when Bush has done such a good job of making Republicans pariah.

Guilt by association is a lame argument no matter how it is used.

Hold people accountable for their own views and actions, not those with whom they are associated.

Otherwise you are making the same error in thinking that Wright makes....that is:

Thinking that membership in a group, club, political party, race is all you need to know to understand the individual.

alan | April 28, 2008, 12:13pm | #

Who here is justifying Wright exactly?

I am, for one. I find the sound-bite view of his sermons and views that has been produced and propagated despicable and in need of some countering.


Do you really need more than two minutes of historical footage of Bull Connor speaking to know you are dealing with a racist. Give me a God damned break.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:13pm | #

Neil,

BTW, McCain didn't have to go to Hagee's church to know about at least some of the views that many find controversial; for example, with regard to Hagee's Katrina statement it was made on NPR and was as far as I know reported broadly in the press.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:14pm | #

Did your Baptist backwoods church ever tell you AIDS was invented by the US government to kill black people, or say "Goddamn America" or print complimentary statements about Hammas in thier church bulletin?

Zeb | April 28, 2008, 12:14pm | #

What the fuck's a Freedom Swatch?

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 12:14pm | #

Ive talked to several Reagan Democrats who are deeply disturbed by his association with a racist preacher.

Do you own a time machine?

Can I try it out?

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:14pm | #

NM his membership in a racist, hate-spewing bigoted church says a lot about Obamas supposed superior "judgement" doesnt it?

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:15pm | #

Again, how many of you would take your five or six year old children to hear one of Reverend Wright's "Goddamn America" sermons?

John | April 28, 2008, 12:15pm | #

Wright has to be eating this up. You don't become a big dollar preacher with a multi-million dollar home by caring more about your parishioners than you do about your own self promotion. Episarchic is absolutley right. The media is going to follow this guy around looking for a crazy quote and a good story for the rest of the election cycle. Even their cheerleading for Obama won't overcome their desire for a good quote. Wright meanwhile will love the publicity and the attention a lot more than he cares about Obama being President. If I were Obama, I would put a contract out on the guy. Wright would be a lot more usful dead than alive.

SugarFree | April 28, 2008, 12:17pm | #

What the fuck's a Freedom Swatch?

Beats me, but the snap-on faceplate comes in over a dozen colors.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:20pm | #

Its FreedomsWatch, and I've capitalized the letters now in my handle to avoid any further confusion.

Neu Mejican | April 28, 2008, 12:21pm | #

Neil,

NM his membership in a racist, hate-spewing bigoted church

Is that what Trinity is?

Really?

Doesn't ring true to me.

But since that "club" is bad, then all members of that club must be bad too.

And all Republicans are greedy oppressors too!

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:21pm | #

Neil,

I'm an atheist. The only reason I go to church is to hear cathedral choirs or organ music.

As anyone with even a miniscule amount of experience with religion in this country knows the U.S. chock full of preachers, etc. who make sermons on Sunday morning which some folks outside their congregations would find controversial. That's just par for the course and is an example of the rich religious diversity in the U.S.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:23pm | #

So NM you wouldn't have any problem taking your small children to hear one of Wright's sermons?

What about you Clidore? Would you have any problem with them hearing that? If so, what do you think of parents that would subject their children to that kind of nefarious propaganda?

Neu Mejican | April 28, 2008, 12:24pm | #

Freedom Swatch, made in Switzerland.

robc | April 28, 2008, 12:25pm | #

NM,

Any statement about "Right Brain" and "Left Brain" is being used metaphorically to talk about different learning styles.

Its as bad as agreeing with joe, but I got to agree with Neil here. Talk about right/left brain is discussing physical differences, not some metaphor. Or, at least, it should be. If you want to talk about learning styles, use the phrase "learning styles". Right/left brain means something literal (and within any race, you are going to have both right and left brained people).

Neu Mejican | April 28, 2008, 12:26pm | #

Neil,

I would have no problem taking my children to Wright's sermons.

I trust in my own ability to help my children learn how to critically appraise what others say. I think most parents do a good job of conveying their values to their children in spite of the negative input they get from many venues in our culture.

My god, imagine how much worse it is to subject my kids to a State of the Union Speech by GWB? Deprogramming that would take more effort than deprogramming Wright's message.

Neu Mejican | April 28, 2008, 12:27pm | #

robc,

Right/left brain means something literal

Not really...at least not in neuroscience.

John | April 28, 2008, 12:28pm | #

"As anyone with even a miniscule amount of experience with religion in this country knows the U.S. chock full of preachers, etc. who make sermons on Sunday morning which some folks outside their congregations would find controversial. That's just par for the course and is an example of the rich religious diversity in the U.S."


Yes and people get really pissed off about it. The most bitter personal conflicts I have ever seen occur at churches and usually over something a pastor said in a sermon. That is why Obama's claim that he didn't really know what was going on or pay any attention doesn't ring true. Bullshit. Everyone who regularly attends a church knows exactly what each pastor thinks and how they preach. People often avoid certain services because they know this or that minister will be doing the service. The idea that someone who goes to church every Sunday and not just on the high holidays could not be aware and have an opinion on what the pastor thinks and preaches is just crap. Only someone who never actually goes to church could buy that line of bullshit.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 12:29pm | #

If so, what do you think of parents that would subject their children to that kind of nefarious propaganda?

Oh, wow, you are sheltered. But I imagine that the responsible thing for a parent to do would be to expose their kids to all sorts of ideas (regardless of their relative "repugnancy" or whatever) and then help the child analyze and dissect and criticize the ideas to help them assess their worth and prepare the child for the day when they become an adult and have to make such decisions and valuations for themselves.

But I imagine your "take 'em out back and shoot 'em for collaboratin' with enemy" approach works too. For a while. Till they grow up to be like you.

Ugh.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:30pm | #

John I bet he really believes in the stuff Wright says too, thats why he never said anything. Hes expecting swing voters to buy that line but they wont, they can see right thru it.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:31pm | #

Neil,

I might to go to such a sermon. Then again I'd also have no problem with my children reading the Prioress's Tale (even though it is chock full of anti-semitism*) or Marx's "Communist Manifesto." One cannot hermetically seal children off from a world where they might encounter that what one doesn't agree with. Indeed, though this may sound patronizing but visiting Wright's former church sounds like an interesting cultural encounter to me.

*Not that I am suggesting that Wright is an anti-semite.

John | April 28, 2008, 12:31pm | #

"I trust in my own ability to help my children learn how to critically appraise what others say. I think most parents do a good job of conveying their values to their children in spite of the negative input they get from many venues in our culture."

So you would go to a church that preached things that you completely disagreed with? Why? Yeah, I am quite sure that your children could attend Wright's church and not turn out to be raving racists. But why the hell would you waste your time dragging them there every Sunday like Obama did if you didn't agree with what was being said?

Bingo | April 28, 2008, 12:32pm | #

Wright is a lot more palatable than the evangelicals that want to bring about the "End Times" by declaring war on every foreigner that isn't Christian. I'll take kooky "black people think like this and white people think like this" over "Jesus wants us to nuke the enemies of Holy Israel otherwise the Anti-Christ will win"

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:32pm | #

So, NM, I guess it'd be alright with you to take your kids to listen to an Aryan Nations rally too?

Mojotron3000 | April 28, 2008, 12:33pm | #

Aren't the same people who are worried about Obama's ties to Wright the same one's who were defending RP about the Survival Report? As disgusting as they are, at least Stormfront has the honesty to be upfront about where they stand and why, unlike Neil and his ilk who claim concern.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:34pm | #

John,

Well, I'm not defending Obama for his membership in the church.

John | April 28, 2008, 12:36pm | #

"Wright is a lot more palatable than the evangelicals that want to bring about the "End Times" by declaring war on every foreigner that isn't Christian. I'll take kooky "black people think like this and white people think like this" over "Jesus wants us to nuke the enemies of Holy Israel otherwise the Anti-Christ will win""

Honestly, I haven't been to anything approaching an evangelical church since I was 14 years old and trying to get a date with a girl who happened to be one, but I don't remember hearing one thing even close to that. Further, I would like to see some links to some people who actually say that and how many followers they actually have. I bet they don't have near the followers Wright has. Lastly, I wouldn't go to their church or want anything to do with them either. Just becuase Wright isn't the only nut in the world doesn't mean he is not a nut himself.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 12:36pm | #

I never supported Ron Paul and would never vote for him.

alan | April 28, 2008, 12:37pm | #

Neil was never a Paul supporter, and I rebuked Paul after the wetback ad.

John | April 28, 2008, 12:38pm | #

"Aren't the same people who are worried about Obama's ties to Wright the same one's who were defending RP about the Survival Report?"

That is a good point. Of course the hypocrisy goes both ways. Reason barbequed Ron Paul for those ties but doesn't seem to have a problem with Obama's ties to Wright.

alan | April 28, 2008, 12:41pm | #

That is a good point. Of course the hypocrisy goes both ways. Reason barbequed Ron Paul for those ties but doesn't seem to have a problem with Obama's ties to Wright.

I detected disgust in Gillespie in the above post. It was a kind of nudge, 'Obama lovers save yourself the personal embarrassment of defending Wright, follow the link, Wright is a creep.'

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:41pm | #

John,

I think that the "End Times" movement (or whatever label one wants to use) makes up a significant element in the body politic. This is one of the reasons that "End Times" literature sells so well I think.

Fluffy | April 28, 2008, 12:43pm | #

Here's why I won't condemn Wright:

Because the people demanding that I condemn him are scum, and the reasons they want him condemned are scumbag reasons.

With respect to Alan, very, very little of reason that neoconservative scumbags want Wright condemned have anything to do with his statement about AIDS. [We'll leave aside the question of the CIA and drugs, since the CIA's admitted involvement in drug smuggling means that no one gets to complain about conspiracy theories about the CIA and drugs ever again. They fucked up; now that justifies any theory anyone wants to promulgate about the CIA and drugs. Forever.]

They want him condemned because he said that God should damn America for what it has done to blacks via its drug and prison policies. I don't expect everyone to agree with this statement, but I certainly don't see that it's beyond the pale of either political or theological discussion.

They also want him condemned because he said that America's bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unjust and terroristic. While I come down on the side of finding those bombings justified, I also certainly don't think the position is completely beyond debate. The position that holds that the bombings were not justified isn't my position, but it's a defensible and legitimate position.

As is the position that the 9/11 attacks were the fruit of the actions of the US in the world. Wright uses more religious language than I would [of course] to express this position, but trying to place this argument outside the bounds of acceptable discussion is a scumbag move.

So hey, if you want me to say that Wright is a chump for thinking AIDS was invented by the government, fine. He's a chump. But if you want me to say that anyone who thinks that US drug and incarcerations policies are damnable and that Japan should not have been attacked with atomic weapons and that 9/11 was blowback to US policy is a scoundrel who should be denounced and silenced, go fuck yourselves.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:45pm | #

John,

BTW, given Paul's eschatology it is not surprising that there has long been a focus on the "End Times" in Christian culture.

alan | April 28, 2008, 12:47pm | #

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:41pm | #
John,

I think that the "End Times" movement (or whatever label one wants to use) makes up a significant element in the body politic. This is one of the reasons that "End Times" literature sells so well I think.


The preachers at protestant churches I attended after a falling out with the Catholic church in my early twenties never really preached this sort of gospel, but Hal Lindsey was popular with the the members of those churches, and I even have a copy of The Late Great Planet Earth given to me by one of them.

However, Hagee is a different matter. I think he is extremely dangerous, and we should devote more time to exploring why McCain sought his support, but at the same time, he has no real influence on McCain.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:49pm | #

Fluffy,

Any HIV/AIDs conspiracy is of course the outgrowth of documented past medical-related conspiracies (involving black Americans specifically as well as Americans in general). The Tuskeegee experiments are merely just one example of this.

johncjackson the 3rd | April 28, 2008, 12:50pm | #

Most people I know were raised in churches in religions they do not really agree with or at least had more "extreme" interpretations of their beliefs. Granted most of my friends are Catholics /Jews turned atheist, but I also have a fair amount of Protestants and others among my friends and family who don't agree with half of the "official" or professed beliefs of their church/clergy.

this is one of the main reasons I consider religion a joke- I know very very few people who are really strict believers in the sermons but many of them DO attend church regularly. When I was a kid, the primary reason my peers attended church was for social reasons (meeting girls, recreation), tradition, or just for something to do. I imagine this is the same for many people. Many adults take their children to church on Sunday just because its their tradition and what they do. They do what their parents did and they go to the same church as their community and peers. There are millions of bland white people who go to churches with bigots and no one really cares.

What I can't fathom is how any so-called libertarians could fault a preacher for opposing government policies.

Oh, what? He's BLACK? Oh , ok. yeah, umm, yeah socialist..commie anti-American blah blah blah...

R C Dean | April 28, 2008, 12:51pm | #

What's the problem with Wright? Sounds like a typical pastor to me. Fire and brimstone sells when your preaching from a pulpit.

Your traditional fire-and-brimstone speech is directed at your own congregation for their own shortcomings.

Not saying that there aren't exceptions, but there's a lot of Black Liberation Theology that doesn't really have a counterpart in white churches, as far as I can tell.

Militant Athiest | April 28, 2008, 12:51pm | #

What Obama did by taking his daughters there is borderline child abuse.

But Neil, that's true of all churches.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:51pm | #

alan,

Well, it says something that appear to be what amount "End Times" tourism to Israel. At least that is the impression that I have gotten.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:53pm | #

Fluffy,

I should have written that it is in part an outgrowth of such.

Matt | April 28, 2008, 12:56pm | #

Odd thing is, when the Democratic party collapses in the next couple decades, it will be largely because men influenced by Reverend Wright begin to vote Republican. All it would take is another 5-10% of the black vote; up by the bootstraps Bill Cosby republicans just might do it.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 12:57pm | #

Fluffy | April 28, 2008, 12:43pm

What you said.

Pretty much all of it.

Any HIV/AIDs conspiracy is of course the outgrowth of documented past medical-related conspiracies (involving black Americans specifically as well as Americans in general). The Tuskeegee experiments are merely just one example of this.

Also, see my post @ 11:54 am.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 12:58pm | #

R.C. Dean,

Your traditional fire-and-brimstone speech is directed at your own congregation for their own shortcomings.

No, a traditional fire and brimstone speech is as often as not directed to those inside and outside the church (or inside and outside the religious grouping). That's also part of a long tradition, this one coming straight out of the Old Testament (e.g., The Book of Ezekial).

P Brooks | April 28, 2008, 1:00pm | #

The BVS, among other things, pointedly rejects "the pursuit of middleclassness" as a strategy through which "captor" majorities neuter the threat of revolt by "captive" groups.

This makes me wonder if Obama is even "black enough" to be a member of the church.

And I managed to avoid a reference to the word "uppity."


Oh, crap.

alan | April 28, 2008, 1:00pm | #

fluffy, what you wrote is reasonable. The motives of the attackers do matter, as it is used to cudgel Obama when he isn't the only one in the race with questionable ties. I tend to put the election horse race to the side when looking at this matter, though. My problem isn't so much with Wright's relationship with Obama, but Wrights relationship with the black community. He is a patheogen, a sociopathology. The sort of slick preacher that reasonable people from the time of Voltaire have been fighting against to clear the air for reason.

Yes, the CIA fucked up. But the context that the conspiracy mongers put that matter in is a lie. The CIA was trying to make some quick cash to fund rebels through the extremely profitable (thanks to prohibition) drug trade, an not by some magical means creating a demand that would foster a black genocide. Wright knows the reality here, he is an educated man, but he is so bent he would spread lies damaging to the minds of those in his congregation.

To many people are all too willing to let the Wright's of the world off the hook when it is necessary for the well being of our society not too.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 1:03pm | #

alan,

So you are arguing that Wright is a 'Sophist' in the Platonic sense* of that term?

*I think the actual Sophists get a really bad wrap myself.

dhex | April 28, 2008, 1:03pm | #

Your traditional fire-and-brimstone speech is directed at your own congregation for their own shortcomings.

not necessarily. there's a sinful, wicked world out there with fornicators and heavy metal fans and homosexual atheist jews with communistic tendencies.

or at the very least, it's a distracting place of the flesh that removes people from god; therefore it is to be shunned.

What Obama did by taking his daughters there is borderline child abuse.

life's a bitch and then you die
that's why we get high
cause you never know when you gonna go

on the plus side, at least their church services weren't that boring. on the other hand, i'm sure neil's aren't, either - he gets to hang up on that cross while plaster jesus is out for renovations. problem being that crucifixion is habit formin', and when you get a fixin' for some 'fixion you kinda get stuck that way. (no pun intended)

dhex | April 28, 2008, 1:05pm | #

The CIA was trying to make some quick cash to fund rebels through the extremely profitable (thanks to prohibition) drug trade, an not by some magical means creating a demand that would foster a black genocide.

but you can see how this might strain the credibility they had, right? as in "no no no we just helped people sell drugs to fund wars!"

P Brooks | April 28, 2008, 1:06pm | #

their church services weren't that boring. on the other hand, i'm sure neil's aren't, either

Those snakes are totally cool, dude.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 1:07pm | #

Once again Im Jewish.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 1:09pm | #

Neil,

Which denomination?

Episiarch | April 28, 2008, 1:10pm | #

So was Jesus, Neil.

P Brooks | April 28, 2008, 1:10pm | #

So you'll be *under* Hagee's express bus to the promised land, right, Neil?

ChrisO | April 28, 2008, 1:15pm | #

Can we please have more Obama/Clinton threads around here? They're just so gosh-darned informative...

Neil | April 28, 2008, 1:16pm | #

Im a Conservative Jew (aka Masorti Judaism for those of you in Israel and Europe).

Neil | April 28, 2008, 1:16pm | #

Say what you will about Hagee but hes a great friend of Israel.

alan | April 28, 2008, 1:18pm | #

but you can see how this might strain the credibility they had, right? as in "no no no we just helped people sell drugs to fund wars!"

Did they ever have credibility? My problem here is with reality versus fantasy.

alan,

So you are arguing that Wright is a 'Sophist' in the Platonic sense* of that term?


That is right. Preachers in the black community have enormous influence, and Wright displays a fundamental lack of responsibility. In that link
Gillespie provided was some rhetoric about personal responsibility, not succumbing to anti-intellectualism, seeking an education (the listing of General Semantics caught my eye there), and then out of left field comes that crazy ass shit about finding the talented ten percent among Blacks and killing them. It is as if, the crazy ass shit is what pays for the mansion and the rest of it is there to immunize Wright from criticism.

Neu Mejican | April 28, 2008, 1:19pm | #

Neil,

So, NM, I guess it'd be alright with you to take your kids to listen to an Aryan Nations rally too?

While I appreciate that more vigor is the only tactic you've got on this issue...wrapping the Aryan Nation up with Trinity and child abuse all in one neat little package is over-stepping.

But, I guess vigorously asserting the same idea over and over again is gonna lead to inflated claims eventually.

You did make me "LOL," however.

Only because I predicted you would go there.

P Brooks | April 28, 2008, 1:20pm | #

He's a great friend of Israel.

Right up until the time he asks his "best friend" to please lie down in the mud so he can cross the stream to Salvation without getting his shoes wet.

Sucker.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 1:20pm | #

ChrisO,

Good point.

alan | April 28, 2008, 1:22pm | #

Neil | April 28, 2008, 1:16pm | #
Say what you will about Hagee but hes a great friend of Israel.


You realize that at the heart of the Dispensational creed is the idea that your immolation in an apocalyptic fire will save Hagee and his people being spared tribulations, right?

NAL | April 28, 2008, 1:22pm | #

I'm just glad that this whole Obama/Wright thing is shining a light upon this "not unusual"* wretchedness that is the black church.


*Quote from black superdelegate and ABC "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" contributor, Donna Brazille

dhex | April 28, 2008, 1:23pm | #

Once again Im Jewish.

then you *really* need to get off the cross, bro. these guys totally fucked up the last dude.

Neu Mejican | April 28, 2008, 1:23pm | #

So you would go to a church that preached things that you completely disagreed with? Why? Yeah, I am quite sure that your children could attend Wright's church and not turn out to be raving racists. But why the hell would you waste your time dragging them there every Sunday like Obama did if you didn't agree with what was being said?

Maybe the sermon isn't the primary benefit Obama and his family see in attending church?

Maybe he sees more good things in the sermon than bad things and feels like he can help his children filter the message.

Lot's of reasons, it would seem, could explain the decision...

Here's one I would bet influences most church goers...it is close enough to their home and their friends go there.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 1:24pm | #

"You realize that at the heart of the Dispensational creed is the idea that your immolation in an apocalyptic fire will save Hagee and his people being spared tribulations, right?

"

Well his religion is bullshit and isnt true, so I dont care about those beliefs if hes helping out Israel. His nutjob fantasy isnt going to come true so Israel may as well take advantage of his help.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 1:25pm | #

alan,

A lot of Israelis find the support of Israel by "End Times" evangelicals* to be rather problematic.

*Of course all Christians I would guess believe in an end times, it is just a matter of emphasis for some.

NAL | April 28, 2008, 1:26pm | #

By the way, if blacks really are more right brain than left brain, shouldn't their be a lot more left-handed blacks (left-handedness is highly correlated with right-brainedness)?

P Brooks | April 28, 2008, 1:26pm | #

Well his religion is bullshit and isnt true, so I dont care about those beliefs if hes helping out Israel. His nutjob fantasy isnt going to come true so Israel may as well take advantage of his help.

How odd- that's what he said about you.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 1:27pm | #

Neil,

The sorts of policies that "End Times" evangelicals might support could prove to be rather problematic in the here and now.

John | April 28, 2008, 1:28pm | #

"Maybe he sees more good things in the sermon than bad things and feels like he can help his children filter the message."

Maybe flowers come out of his ass to. Bullshit. He went there because he was a half white guy from Hawaii trying to make it in politics in a black neighborhood. He went there for purly cynical and calculating reasons. Given that, I don't see how he can complain when people hold it against him for purely cynical and calculating reasons.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 1:29pm | #

Neil,

BTW, it is interesting that you would have no problem with someone who you say has a "nutjob fantasy" for a POV in light of your comments about Obama's relationship with Wright (in light of the comments of Wright that you find disfavor with).

Neil | April 28, 2008, 1:29pm | #

Actually, Hagee is an evangelical who doesnt even try to convert Jews. He actually preaches AGAINST it, so I dont know if he would call Judaism "bullshit".

alan | April 28, 2008, 1:30pm | #

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 1:25pm | #
alan,

A lot of Israelis find the support of Israel by "End Times" evangelicals* to be rather problematic.

*Of course all Christians I would guess believe in an end times, it is just a matter of emphasis for some.


Reminds me of a time in 2000 when a visiting Israelis journalist told me that groups of Christians would show up in Israel on tours and want the Jews to 'perform for them like it was Galilee 33 A.D.'

Neil | April 28, 2008, 1:30pm | #

I wouldnt take my children to Hagees Church calidore.

However yeah I might ally with him for purely political reasons.

Bingo | April 28, 2008, 1:31pm | #

Also I appreciate Wright's anti-authoritarianism and find the evangelicals willingness to cede everything to the right kind of authority to be a lot scarier.

Calidore | April 28, 2008, 1:33pm | #

alan,

Ha!

I guess they don't realize that Judaism is quite different today as opposed to the Second Temple period.

Elemenope | April 28, 2008, 1:40pm | #

Maybe flowers come out of his ass to. Bullshit. He went there because he was a half white guy from Hawaii trying to make it in politics in a black neighborhood. He went there for purely cynical and calculating reasons. Given that, I don't see how he can complain when people hold it against him for purely cynical and calculating reasons.

That's a pretty fucking disgusting thing to say (especially the bold parts).

It's akin to saying "hey, John. You go to a church but I don't think it's because you love God. I think it's because you want to find more clients for [whatever business you're in]."

Jamie Kelly | April 28, 2008, 1:41pm | #

By the way, if blacks really are more right brain than left brain, shouldn't their be a lot more left-handed blacks (left-handedness is highly correlated with right-brainedness)?

I'm left-handed. Why am I not black?

Ravac | April 28, 2008, 1:46pm | #

Neil,

You spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about what other's kids are exposed to.

Admit it... you work for Hilary, don't you?

P Brooks | April 28, 2008, 1:49pm | #

Why am I not black?

What makes you think you're not?

But look on the bright side- maybe you're related to Thos. Jefferson.

joe | April 28, 2008, 1:52pm | #

As expected, the only people condemning Obama on this thread, as in the country as a whole, are those who would never have voted him anyway.

TallDave | April 28, 2008, 1:56pm | #

"I served six years in the military," Barack Obama's longtime pastor said. "Does that make me patriotic?"

Yeah, well, Benedict Arnold served in the military too. It doesn't give you an automatic pass for everything you do.

I see Wright's still using the Milhouse excuse -- "What about all the days I DIDN'T wear culottes to school? Nobody talks about that!"

Still, I was impressed by Obama's Fox News appearance with Chris Matthews. Now, if this primary would finally end so he can start pandering to us centrists instead of the Kos Krowd...

TallDave | April 28, 2008, 1:57pm | #

Chris Wallace*

Neil | April 28, 2008, 1:58pm | #

Well Joe what do you think it says about Obama's judgement that he let his children listen to anti- white and anti-America hate speech for years and years?

Ayn_Randian | April 28, 2008, 1:58pm | #

Can I just issue a general condemnation of politics because we are at the point where a loony-toon Christian, no matter what color he is, is getting so much play in the press?

I am SO tired of the Jesus-and-politics snake-oil salesmen on both sides of the fence getting disproportionate amounts of attention. A sane society would relegate Wright to the street corner, hustling for cash with Fred Phelps.

The right Christian tells me I have to be guilty for tolerating gays and being lustful of women. The left Christian tells me I have to be guilty over slavery. It’s all a load of guilt-hustling crap and I’m sick of it.

TallDave | April 28, 2008, 2:01pm | #

Ayn,

I think it's because they breed more successfully.

I dated a girl whose parents were 7th Day Adventists, and real serious about the whole religion thing. 6 brothers and sisters, and none of the girls were even allowed to cut their hair till they were 18.

Ayn_Randian | April 28, 2008, 2:02pm | #

Well Joe what do you think it says about Obama's judgement that he let his children listen to anti- white and anti-America hate speech for years and years?

What do you think it says about McCain's judgement that he's friends with Rod Parsley, spewer of right-theocrat crap and hater of the gays?

Neil, just for the lulz, I hope that Obama wins and Wright is in charge of your cherished-President's "faith-based initiatives" office. The only reason that evangelical claptrap has any kind of political sway these days is because of Reagan prostituting the party for a bunch of ignorant redneck hillbilly jerks. Thanks.

joe | April 28, 2008, 2:02pm | #

So, whose politics would you worry about more: someone whose relationship with a looney clergyman who said scary things about politics was based around receiving the sacraments, performing ceremonies, receiving spiritual and biblical instruction, and doing good works in the community?

Or one whose relationshpo with a looney pastor who said scary things was based entirely on politics?

The one who invited said clergyman onto his campaign for reasons that had nothing to do with ideological affinity, and who removed him because of his political statements?

Or the one who invited said clergyman onto his campaign specifically because of his political statements?

joe | April 28, 2008, 2:03pm | #

Neil | April 28, 2008, 1:58pm | #

Well Joe what do you think it says about Obama's judgement that he let his children listen to anti- white and anti-America hate speech for years and years?


He didn't. You're simply misrepresenting was Wright said for political purposes. And people are beginning to realize that.

dhex | April 28, 2008, 2:03pm | #

i think putting wright in the same category as phelps is a bit unfair, to say the least.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 2:04pm | #

"
What do you think it says about McCain's judgement that he's friends with Rod Parsley, spewer of right-theocrat crap and hater of the gays?"

McCain is an Episcopalian, probably the most mild-mannered Christian denomination the world over. So please, find something offensive his Episcopal priest said on the order of Wright, and then we can talk equivelance. Ok?

joe | April 28, 2008, 2:05pm | #

If Neil were not a spoof, and was actually the McCain buttboy he poses as, he would know that McCain loudly and prominently stated that he had left the Episcopal Church and was now a Baptist. Like Hagee.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 2:06pm | #

Theres a big difference between being ENDORSED by a preacher and ATTENDING THEIR CHURCH for 20+ years!

BTW, since we're talking endorsements, Farakahn endorsed Obama and said "once people find out who he really is, all this Jewish support will go away". Well, hes actually right about that LOL!

dhex | April 28, 2008, 2:06pm | #

joe, your partisan heterosexist language ill serves you.

and i'm only half-kidding.

Neu Mejican | April 28, 2008, 2:06pm | #

John,

He went there because he was a half white guy from Hawaii trying to make it in politics in a black neighborhood.

Why was the bold clause included in your line of reasoning here.

I don't follow the logical path from this to Trinity.

joe | April 28, 2008, 2:07pm | #

So, we're left with Southern Baptist vs. Congregationalist (UCC).

Personally, I find it repugnant to judge people based on their religious denomination, and said so when Mitt Romney was the issue, but if that is the standard Neil wished to use, he should at least have his facts straight.

Neil | April 28, 2008, 2:07pm | #

Ok so hes a baptist now. Please find something his preacher said on the order of Wright.