New at Reason
Forget about the statistics, forget about pumping up the egos of wardens: Jacob Sullum asks what our imprisonment figures really say about American justice.
Comments to "New at Reason":
Episiarch | March 5, 2008, 9:21am | #
Maybe we should just create a 50-foot wall around Manhattan and put all the "criminals" in there for life.I just hope nobody important ever crashes in there in a plane, because then we might have to send in a dangerous ex-special forces criminal to get them out in exchange for a pardon.
Ruthless | March 5, 2008, 9:22am | #
Here's what gets me about this story:Penitentiaries were invented in about 1820. People were so excited about their potential, Alexis de Toqueville came here in 1830 to write about them. By 1850, everybody realized they were a flop... as far as reforming people.
So here we are. 2008 and more people incarcerated than ever.
Talk about institutional momentum!
Lost_In_Translation | March 5, 2008, 9:28am | #
Episiarch,that's crazy talk. Everyone knows that criminals belong in a newly created island of Los Angeles proper which will soon be breaking off into the ocean. Of course, there are pitfalls there too.
Episiarch | March 5, 2008, 9:39am | #
LIT,Maybe we could use a previously private island instead, and call it Absolom. The inmates can attempt to build a society there if they wish.
Sometimes it's difficult to decide how to create a society of criminals, you know?
Lost_In_Translation | March 5, 2008, 9:42am | #
Ah screw it, just dump them on a large land mass with easily defeatable locals and let them build the third wealthiest English speaking nation.Chancellor | March 5, 2008, 9:44am | #
Episiarch,Sometimes it's difficult to decide how to create a society of criminals, you know?
We could try just throwing them all into a series of gigantic, guarded compounds and...
oh, wait...
troy | March 5, 2008, 9:44am | #
No one, except us libertarians apparently, are ashamed enough to do anything about these hideous statistics. The only way this is ever going to be changed is because the taxpayers cannot bear the tax burden for maintaining such a large population.I am afraid this is only going to get worse. We have a huge economy that probably has enough flexibility left to bear the burden of more prisoners.
Please don't forget that some of the people who don't deserve to be in prison are people who didn't do the crime.
Dogzilla | March 5, 2008, 9:44am | #
NEW RULE:The country with the highest incarceration rate in the world can't have "..land of the free.." in it's national anthem.
Seriously, this country has an unrealistic view of crime and punishment. Too many people want to use the legal code for moral posturing, and if they can get 51% of the people to agee with them, they have no problem with incarcerating hunderds of thousands of people to make their point.
Laws don't "send a message" to kids. They put adults in jail.
I join with Dogzilla's New Rule. You can't call yourself the "land of the free" when your not. After a while it just gets sort of patronizing.
stuartl | March 5, 2008, 9:55am | #
...found that many, if not most, people sentenced for drug crimes in New York, Arizona, and New Mexico were "drug-only offenders," meaning the only crimes they'd ever committed involved the voluntary exchange of politically incorrect intoxicants for money.Many, if not most = 50%? Without actual numbers, my BS detector (I always try to flip statistics to understand them) turned this into -- Many, if not most, people sentenced for drug crimes in New York, Arizona, and New Mexico were NOT "drug-only offenders," meaning that they had committed other crimes and were potentially dangerous criminals.
Disclaimer, I am not in favor of most drug laws, however I think the statistics should and can be presented more clearly. The emphasis should be on the percentage of drug offenders who are not violent criminals. If that number is high, switch the argument to a rights issue, not a numbers issues. Or argue that doing drugs keeps them from committing more serious felonies, or whatever.
Dogzilla is right. Maybe we should open a larger facility on Guantanamo, or build prisons in some offshore site so that America proper remains the land of the free.
stuartl | March 5, 2008, 10:00am | #
damn -- I meant to say "...the percentage of drug offenders who are violent criminals. If that number is high, ..."I suppose another this problem could be fixed would be a "Richard Nixon going to China" moment. Say someone like William Bennent coming out and saying that we need to change. Of course Bill Bennent is probably a bad example since he has the moral vacuity (or is it vacuousness?) of a light bulb and hasn't, apparently, heard of the vices of gluttony and gambling. (Sorry for the adhominem.)
I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.
anonymous | March 5, 2008, 10:21am | #
I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.xkcd.com
Reinmoose | March 5, 2008, 10:23am | #
Laws don't "send a message" to kids.Sure they do. The message is "do whatever is necessary not to get caught, or you're fucked. Therefore, you should engage in more dangerous behavior in order to avoid even harsher penalties."
R C Dean | March 5, 2008, 10:45am | #
Other messages laws send to kids:This society is run by heartless, soulless, dirtbags who think nothing of grinding other peoples lives into dust over a trifle, so long as it puffs up their place in society.
The laws of this society are arbitrary and capricious, have no inherent legitimacy, and are not deserving of your respect.
R C Dean | March 5, 2008, 10:46am | #
Sometimes it's difficult to decide how to create a society of criminals, you know?Oh, I dunno. Just check the local statehouse.
Ventifact | March 5, 2008, 11:28am | #
Gosh. I don't like the Drug War.I propose we change "Drug War" to "Politically incorrect intoxicating substance war"
zig zag man | March 5, 2008, 11:53am | #
It's 2008 people. Where are the interplanetary slave-shuttles to the mines on Mars?We, as a nation, are so retarded, we can't even have the interplanetary shuttles and we have people locked up who are not mining other planets.
I want my fare for this life refunded, IMMEDIATELY.
Steve-o | March 5, 2008, 12:36pm | #
"When the government incarcerates people who are guilty only of consensual "crimes," however, it wastes scarce prison space that could be used to incapacitate predatory criminals. That compromises public safety rather than enhancing it."As a career prosecutor I can't stress enough how accurate that statement is. How the "war on drugs" still manages to curry the support of "mainstream" America defies imagination.
Michael Pack | March 5, 2008, 1:23pm | #
Stevo-o,That's good to hear.Some is generational.My father would rail against 'dope smoking hippies' while drinking Blue Ribbon with his friends.Most people I know my age are against the WOD and I live in a heavily republican area.zig zag man | March 5, 2008, 3:01pm | #
"Jacob Sullum asks what our imprisonment figures really say about American justice."The imprisonment figures say that those making and enforcing the laws are more interested in protecting us from victimless, nonviolent behaviors than protecting us from violent offenders.
zig zag man | March 5, 2008, 4:40pm | #
"How the "war on drugs" still manages to curry the support of "mainstream" America defies imagination."When a business like "Drug Testing" can be in a stand alone building paying rent and making a profit to test people for "illegal" substances, that's how.
When most people are so willingly bought and trained like seals to pee for their masters on command, for a job which will be outsourced at their masters' pleasure.
When no one sits down and thinks about the liberties and financial costs which are sacrificed at the altar of the war on some drugs.
P.HARI PRASAD | March 6, 2008, 3:41am | #
THIS IS TO NICEconcerned citizen | March 6, 2008, 2:45pm | #
Is it not the most striking aspect of this study that so many Americans are committing crimes? I doubt we are just better at catching criminals, but it seems likely that we are better at manufacturing criminals. Even if some laws are unjust, it's still true that we have a very high rate of murder, even compared with "developing nations", and that we have an insane number of rapists. I blame the criminals for their actions and the country for (not) educating them.Yuri | March 7, 2008, 8:08am | #
Your country had 5 school shootings in one week. Americans are overflowing with hatred for one another and for other people of the world. It is not surprising that so many Americans belong in prison and certainly not enough of you are.But in reality you are afraid to walk your streets at night because your country is so dangerous. Even the police are afraid to travel to many areas, so it is really like you are all in prison after all.
Your country is spending more on prisons than on schools and your students score lower than Russia, China and 27 other developed countries. You better start building more prisons because the next generation of Americans will be worse than this one. You will not be able to trust your own grandchildren because they will be so evil.
Art-P.O.G. | March 9, 2008, 3:07pm | #
Whoa, whoa, Yuri. While our country suffers from so many of the aforementioned problems, it's still not actually like living a John Carpenter movie (at least not for most of us, yet).Kdog | March 10, 2008, 5:45pm | #
Before the widespread use of penitentiaries, imprisonment was still a common punishment, it was simple done in local jails (along with people awaiting trial) or in the feudal lord's dungeon. It is misleading to suggest that penitentiaries are something new, as though they were not an extension of earlier ideas.I do agree that the idea of rehabilitation has been a virtually unmitigated failure, and drug treatment has proven a categorical failure. I would prefer to see Americans turn an eye towards Singapore, which had possibly the highest ever drug addiction rate when it achieved independence from Britain (and was thrown out of Malaysia). Yet in a very short time (just over ten years) they essentially solved their drug problem through the extensive use of the death penalty. We should look into similar measures.
JohnD | March 11, 2008, 9:04am | #
All drug based crimes should result in the druggies being all locked up together and given unlimited drugs.We can come back in a few months and see if anyone has survived. If so, we give them more drugs.
wang | March 11, 2008, 10:09am | #
Oh, I met several man eat the drug! o, my god! why do they do that!