New at Reason
Jonathan Rauch introduces the country to the Rauch immigration plan.
Comments to "New at Reason":
This article does not take into account the DireConsequences of the MexicanGovernment seeking PoliticalPower.
You joke, Greg, but before long our freedom to CapitalizeAndSpace words RandomlyWill be gone.
Aw, aren't they cute? Meanwhile, the possibility exists that the MexicanGovernment used proxies to agitate their citizens to make a show of force in our streets: at the very least, several of the IllegalImmigrationMarches were organized by those linked to that government or their PoliticalParties. And, of course, Rauch doesn't mention nor is he probably aware of this whole issue.
jimmydageek | June 20, 2007, 4:26pm | #
I agree with Urkobold&tradeI Dubai, guest workers outnumber native born people 3 to 1. A similar ratio in the US means handing out 900 million visas. Ideally, anyone who passes a background check would be let in. Jonathan Rauch's proposal is one I could live with and is more likely to pass into law.
LarryA | June 20, 2007, 4:37pm | #
but conservatives are also right to say that mass normalization might stimulate more unauthorized immigration and erode respect for the law.To rework the parade of virgins joke: They had to cancel the parade for people who respect the current immigration law. One broke a leg and the other wouldn’t march alone.
Think of 1.8 million as the revealed demand for immigration.
Actually, it’s the demand for workers, not immigrants. One of the biggest problems when discussing this issue is the presumption that all or most of the folks who want to work here, want to stay here. Particularly when discussing Mexican laborers, that’s simply not so.
Still, providing an adequate supply of visas for low-skilled workers would considerably relieve pressure on the borders.
Bingo.
Experience bears this out: Illegal border crossings nearly ended in the 1950s
Of course that was pre War on Drugs, the other factor in today’s border woes.
Orion | June 20, 2007, 8:32pm | #
"but conservatives are also right to say that mass normalization might stimulate more unauthorized immigration and erode respect for the law."Might? When you have a direct example to look back to for the results, that is like saying "if I release this ball over an open space, it may go down." Refer to the Reagan disaster. It spawned over 10 times the illegals and issues over what existed prior to his amnesty. The illegals took the hint and poured in. Me, I can take a hint also and say "Hell No"!
Phillip Conti | June 20, 2007, 8:53pm | #
Wouldnt it be better to drop the income tax and just have an national sales tax instead? Then who would really care about who stays in the country?Genghis Kahn | June 20, 2007, 9:43pm | #
Jonathan, I don't always agree with you but this was a really good article. Probably the most rational piece of work I've seen Reason publish yet on the immigration issue.[applause]
I could get behind your bill sooner than most anything else I've seen.
Even in principle, there is no "right" number of immigrants, but the kind of plan I describe here has the advantage of squaring with marketplace realities.
At least you're giving us some rational arguments, rather than accusing opponents of being merely racist (which is a badly mistaken notion btw).
Suffice it to say that writing a perfect immigration bill is impossible, but writing a better one than the Senate's is a piece of cake.
Amen to that.
And raise it for good.
Nah. We've got a democracy here, and we don't do anything "for good" anymore. Everything now is like cutting taxes, we do it with a "sundown" clause.
Welcome to the increasingly ungovernable US of A.
Genghis Kahn | June 20, 2007, 10:05pm | #
btw, a key strength of this article is that you're talking hard numbers.A couple million immigrants a year? That's one thing. Wide open borders, and we have to absorb whatever the tide brings in? That's an entirely different matter.
From my recent three week trip to Asia I am convinced: those who don't believe that open US borders would bring in a huge flood of immigrants, know not what they speak of.
Genghis Kahn | June 20, 2007, 10:06pm | #
btw, I very much hope to see further rational analyses on this issue from Reason. Because, almost nobody else out there is being rational about it. There is a huge, sucking vacuum to be filled out there....MikeP | June 20, 2007, 11:36pm | #
This plan is far, far better than any variant of the Senate proposal. But it does steer clear of the hot button issues: (a) enforcement, (b) employment verification, or (c) what to do about the 12 million already here.Since those three issues are more interesting to the anti-immigration crowd than the actual numbers allowed under the various quotas, I don't see the plan playing too well in Peoria.
If the debate can be captured from the "illegal means illegal" hordes, this sort of sensible approach has a chance. And maybe it can be captured. If you polled O'Reilly's watchers and listeners, I doubt one in ten would guess that there are currently a million legal immigrants a year. Once given that shocking revelation, maybe another 600,000 wouldn't be too much of a problem.
DEFINITELY MORE AMERICAN THAN RAUCH | June 21, 2007, 12:46am | #
OK AND WHY DONT WE JUST TURN THE CAPITAL INTO A TACO STAND AND LET OUR CHILDREN BECOME LEPER MS13 GANG MEMBERS AND AL GAYDA MAKE THE NATIONAL ANTHEM IN SPANGLISH YOU TRAITORHenry Bowman | June 21, 2007, 7:11am | #
JR,Where do you get the 1.8 million immigrants per year number? Where is there 'documentation' that the U.S. needs such an immigration rate? I'm not stating that the number is wrong, but 600,000 unskilled workers per year seems a bit high to me. How many gardeners do the fat cats in LA need?
Joel Mackey | June 21, 2007, 8:57am | #
It is of no use to issue visa's to immigrants if you cannot stem the tide of illegal immigrants. until we stem the tide of illegal immigrants, any legalization scheme is doomed to failure because the illegal status is what gives employers the leverage to offer below market and sometimes below minimum wage.Everything is gum flap until enforcement is achieved.
tarran | June 21, 2007, 10:24am | #
Joel, sweetie, the wages offered on the black market are the market wage.Also, what matters is the question of whether the law is a good one or not. If immigration restrictions are bad and should be repealed, then delaying repeal of the law until you can demonstrate an ability to enforce it is collosaly stupid.
It would be like refusing to lift prohibition until all alcohol is confiscated.
It is difficult to understand such statements as "the economies need for 1.8 million new workers each year. Unless this reasoning is made clear then this whole argument will remain muddled.
LarryA | June 21, 2007, 12:03pm | #
It is of no use to issue visas to immigrants if you cannot stem the tide of illegal immigrants.Jose approaches the border and sees two signs:
1. Legal method. Take a bus to the bridge, show ID to the INS officer, receive a work visa, get on a bus to the labor depot, walk down the line of employers looking for workers until you find one that suits you, sign up for a minimum wage or above job with U.S. labor law protections.
2. Illegal method. Contact a coyote who runs illegal workers across the border in conjunction with his drug smuggling business, pay him a couple thousand dollars, cross the Rio Grande at night on foot out in the wilderness somewhere, walk across the desert for a couple of days, if everything goes right work for the employer connected to the coyote, don’t forget you’re illegal and can’t call on U.S. authorities if any of the criminals stiff you, and finally hope you aren’t one of the ones caught by INS and sent back to start over.
Which do you think Jose will choose?
The only reason we have a “tide of illegal immigrants” is because it’s impossible to get a visa.
I love u reason, just have to say it, u have become one of my first stops on the internet. I usually come to u from drudge after reading the news. U should really bulk up your staff, if u can afford it, bring the most insightful libertarians from elsewhere on the web to here. Dont ever back down from the freedom message and i will be with u. But that means supporting Ron Paul, or a libertarian if he fails in the republican primaries. Don't become another cato, dont be afraid to support freedom politically.
GILMORE | June 21, 2007, 2:29pm | #
It is difficult to understand such statements as "the economies need for 1.8 million new workers each year.I mean, jeez.... dont TRY too hard or anything...
there's this little group called the Bureau Of Labor Statistics?
http://www.bls.gov/home.htm
They project (hope!)... "18.9 million new jobs will be created by 2014, but the number of people in the workforce will increase by only 3 million during this same time period. By 2030, one out of every 5 Americans will be a senior citizen. Immigrant labor is needed to meet the demands of a growing economy and supplement the aging U.S. workforce."
I am really getting sick of people who have strong opinions that can only survive if they REFUSE to actually look into real data, instead of cherry picked polemical bullshit
It's not that different than the global warming chicken littles or the CORPORACHUNS EVIL!! crew. Immigration is the idiot magnet du jour.
GILMORE | June 21, 2007, 2:30pm | #
Dude, we love you too. Just dont do the "U" thing. It's way mad gayzorzbrian | June 21, 2007, 2:45pm | #
u are just wrong on immigration, i want open borders morally, but when we get way more illegals at the bottom than at the middle and top, u help kill the middle class. My bro made 80k a year as a construction worker. Try to do that now. U will say he didnt deserve it? We arent racist, hispanics are, that they think they deserve it more than college trained pros that make jobs, half of our new companies in america are started by asians. And they take no welfare, they create. But u guys call me racist for wanting asians and europeans who create jobs, rather than those who i know for a personal fact drive down cleaning and construction and fast food wages.And do a worse job as well. U are an idealist, i thought hayek convinced us libertarians of the foolishness of putting what u imagine over reality. Take a good look.
U are wrong. immigration at the bottom from mexico is an escape valve for them and horrible for us, we will make it all good in 50 years, but not when they are taking 40k a year from a collapsing economy. Accepting illegals is pressing us into socialism
GILMORE | June 21, 2007, 3:26pm | #
Brian | June 21, 2007, 3:00pm | #will get no answer out of this, posed too many questions
Thats one possible reason.
There's also another one. But I'll save you the pain.
MikeP | June 21, 2007, 3:27pm | #
Brian,Since your justification for strongly limiting immigration appears to be its effect on middle class workers who can be replaced by lower paid immigrants, I presume you would think the same thing about middle class factory workers who can be replaced by lower paid Chinese factory workers and middle class service workers who can be replaced by lower paid Indian service workers.
Am I right?
LET ME GUESS REASON #2!!! | June 21, 2007, 3:28pm | #
Immigration is the idiot magnet du jour.Immigration is the idiot magnet du jour.
Immigration is the idiot magnet du jour.
Immigration is the idiot magnet du jour.
Immigration is the idiot magnet du jour.
Immigration is the idiot magnet du jour.
Immigration is the idiot magnet du jour.
Immigration is the idiot magnet du jour.
J Golden Rockwell | June 21, 2007, 10:20pm | #
Joel, you are wrong.If you want to use the "tide" analogy, let's look at, say, the construction of a huge dam (which is what you are proposing). The first thing that the engineers do is build a diversion system, to carry water past the damsite. At Hoover Dam, the diversion was two 50-foot-diameter pipes. These are now in place as emergency spillways, and they are very humbling to look down into from above.
If you tried to build the Hoover Dam without the diversion, the river would just wash away the wet concrete, until you dumped such a massive amount at one time that it would hold. It's much easier, less expensive and more secure to take the pressure off, build your dam, then let it do the job.
You need to fix the VISA issue before trying to build the DAM.
John Bennett | June 23, 2007, 12:49am | #
This has been the most refreshing article on immigration I've seen in a while, and also a good rational discussion. Key things this article gets right: the existing system is simply broken and no point enforcing a broken system, and that in proposing reform the place to start is the goal and numbers.Brian, construction workers are going to remain more seriously undercut by illegal labor than legal. And you simply cannot patch the current system to enforce legal - no force can fix what simply does not function. The current immigration laws never have worked. If you want legal immigration you have to start with a practical situation.
As for Mexico and others exporting their problems, yep it happens. The strongest force the USA can project is economic. Workers who experience a fair legal and economic system here and can easily move back and forth are going to demand, and create, better systems back home. Look at how the expat community is spearheading Indian and Chinese revivals.
What good is that for us? Well, the USA is about 5% of the world. We have a LOT brighter future if that other 95% sees us as a positive force helping them climb to prosperity too. I for one have no desire to see the USA subside into being a terrified recluse behind walls, withdrawn from the rest of the world.
The world economy is a positive sum game. It always has been. Sure its a rough place, but our future is in cooperation, not seclusion.