New at Reason
In her column from Reason's May issue, Cathy Young demands more attention be paid to the shame of prison rape.
Comments to "New at Reason":
Frank | April 18, 2007, 12:21pm | #
Who cares? Frankly, rape is an integral part of the prison experience, and serves as a useful deterent to crime. You don't like it, then don't do the crime and you ain't going to prison.damaged justice | April 18, 2007, 12:26pm | #
Well, one of the problems, you fucking asshat, is that we have a plethora of so-called "laws" in this country that declare acts like eating bananas on Sunday to be crimes.I for one care a great deal. The despicable conditions of our prisons, and the way we treat our prisoners, is one of the most neglected stories of our time. Even the dust up over Abu Ghraib had only a smattering of fallout. Attitudes like Frank's are not only disgusting, they are counter productive to the rule of law.
Mr. Steven Crane | April 18, 2007, 12:30pm | #
Frankly, rape is an integral part of the prison experiencewhy?
VM | April 18, 2007, 12:34pm | #
What Warren and Mr. Crane said.Frankie baby, take some advice - vary the grip, try the other hand, maybe with both - but your self rejection during BATING has gotten you lashing out in all sorts of directions...
And it's really disturbing, what you're saying.
Frank | April 18, 2007, 12:40pm | #
Well, one of the problems, you fucking asshat, is that we have a plethora of so-called "laws" in this country that declare acts like eating bananas on Sunday to be crimes.If the law says don't eat bannanas on Sunday, you'd best not be eating bannanas on Sunday, and you ain't going to prison. Everyone has an obligation to obey every law, you don't obey, you go to prison, period.
VM | April 18, 2007, 12:42pm | #
...maybe switching to Pepsi Clear would help, too.do you also get into a karate stance at first chance?
damaged justice | April 18, 2007, 12:43pm | #
If the law says don't eat bannanas on Sunday, you'd best not be eating bannanas on Sunday, and you ain't going to prison. Everyone has an obligation to obey every law, you don't obey, you go to prison, period.Your attitude is that of a coward and quisling, and unbecoming that of a free person.
thoreau | April 18, 2007, 12:44pm | #
Guys, ignore the latest incarnation of "Jane".Solitudinarian | April 18, 2007, 12:45pm | #
And on that note, Frank, I wish you an enlighteningly long stay in one of our country's state prisons.damaged justice | April 18, 2007, 12:45pm | #
Frank, and every other asshat like him, needs to go to fucking Russia or China, and get the fuck out of the united States of America. These cowards and petty thugs, and those who acquiesce to them, bring nothing but ruin to every honest person.Frank: I'm with ya, bud. Instead of parole, we should have the ex-cons go to a reaming officer for weekly check-ins.
Melanie Friedman | April 18, 2007, 1:04pm | #
The social demand for more punishment than lawfully declared (prison sentence) by tacitly approving of prison rape and satirizing it as humor underscores our hypocrisy as law revering citizens with a respect for Human Rights. That is the real issue. We condone and abdicate responsibilty at the same time we laugh at prison rape, and then pretend to stand for Human Rights while claiming the moral authority. I laugh at this too because , perhaps like most people, I don't know anyone in prison.Take it away Ayn! | April 18, 2007, 1:05pm | #
Did you really think that we wanted those laws to be observed? . . . We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with.~Dr. Ferris ('Atlas Shrugged' 1957)
jane | April 18, 2007, 1:06pm | #
Dammit! It was "period" that gave me away, right?Vladimir | April 18, 2007, 1:09pm | #
Frank,Can´t you see that rape is still a crime if done in prisions? Why do you care so much about the ban on bananas and don´t care about rape? Both are criminal acts and in your self-rightouness you should care about both...
matt | April 18, 2007, 1:12pm | #
I laugh at this too because , perhaps like most people, I don't know anyone in prison.==================================
I suppose the everyone you know has less melanin and better legal representation. In any case, prison rape is a huge mental health issue, and of course it has profound medical implications as well.
This sort of intentional ignorance of a major human rights issue will eventually come back to bite every one of us in the ass unless something is done.
Matt, many of us laugh everytime the US talks about "human rights." We're so focused on abortion and foie gras that we can't recognize how hypocritical we are.
Melanie | April 18, 2007, 1:19pm | #
Ayn Rand?-Howard Roark stood at the edge of the cliff naked. One of the first lines in The Fountainhead
Sounds like an obscenity charge..should Howard Roark be raped?
Pro Libertate | April 18, 2007, 1:21pm | #
Shoot, there's no right or wrong. For instance, the recent shootings at VT were simply expression. Why let people exercise some sort of victim's veto over this fully valid form of speech? In fact, killing everyone who has been arrested is equally valid to letting them remain free. Right?I don't like real criminals or violent people any more than the next guy, and my pity for their various plights is limited. However, I'd prefer that the state and any other people acting in my name draw the line at allowing violent acts to be committed against anybody (without due process, incidentally, since prison rape and battery aren't listed under the statutory punishments for any felony, as far as I know) in "our" custody. If we're going to allow something this heinous be done to any criminal, whether well behaved, incarcerated for a relatively minor offense, whatever, why not torture them, too? Why not kill them?
I have no problem locking up violent people for life or in depriving them of certain amenities or freedoms possessed by the rest of us, but I have serious qualms with cruelty and inhumanity.
He was fucked to death when we got here | April 18, 2007, 1:22pm | #
Prison rape is merely a symptom (albeit a lurid one) of what really ails us. We've become way too cavalier in depriving people of their freedom.I'd say it's a result of class warfare, but it's a well known fact that, here in the USA, we don't do the class warfare thing.
Right?
Pro Libertate | April 18, 2007, 1:29pm | #
Agree with cavalierness remark; disagree with class warfare statement. Even tossing out the silly crimes, there are a lot of people in prison for crimes of violence against property and people. Sure, financial status plays no small role in that, but even poor people aren't thinking that murderers and robbers should be walking the streets.My skin color should be irrelevant in grasping the understood aim of my honest social commentary. Axes to grind. But yes I am very white and have to stay out of the sun lest I freckle. I am melanin challenged, as it were, while most of my friends and classmates are not. I hope that they are not destined for prison like you suggest is their likely fate.
highnumber | April 18, 2007, 2:14pm | #
I don't understand why the admonition is always to ignore Jane/Juanita/Frank/whatever. I get a huge bang out of seeing people disagree with him/her. If you recognize the joke, yes, ignore it, but don't stop other suckers from falling for it. He/she has great timing. Someone who should know better always gets caught in his/her trap. Hilarious. Every time.VM | April 18, 2007, 2:19pm | #
High#:I for one welcome the frank overloard (sic: overloaded overlord), 'cept this time he interrupted my bating.
as a result, I got a horrible knot in my merkin. Moose merkin. mmmmmmm.
Asharak | April 18, 2007, 2:33pm | #
I don't understand why the admonition is always to ignore Jane/Juanita/Frank/whatever. I get a huge bang out of seeing people disagree with him/her. If you recognize the joke, yes, ignore it, but don't stop other suckers from falling for it. He/she has great timing. Someone who should know better always gets caught in his/her trap. Hilarious. Every time.Agreed, although Grand Chalupa is real, and I've seen him defend prison rape on H&R while ironically claiming to be a libertarian (I suppose he thinks people in prison on drug charges deserve to be raped as well).
highnumber | April 18, 2007, 2:41pm | #
Grand Chalupa belonged on my late, lamented list.Pro Libertate | April 18, 2007, 2:46pm | #
highnumber,Yes, long ago I recognized that about 75% of our trolls are one of us regulars having way too much fun with the rest of us. However, our casual readers don't know this, so it's occasionally just too tempting to pen a response.
I miss your blog. It was cutting edge, for its time. Too bad Reason didn't see fit to continue subsidizing it. Maybe you could get an NEA grant? I used to be funded by the NSF. . .not for doing anything, just for existing.
Incidentally, maybe we should vote for the Top Ten Hit & Run Trolls of All Time? With a period for nominations, of course.
Eryk Boston | April 18, 2007, 2:49pm | #
estimates of how many male inmates experience forced sex during incarceration range from nearly 10 percent to less than 1 percent.Traslation: we have no freakin' clue how often it happens.
As for those who condone this as a type of justice, I must ask: do you really see justice in allowing violent criminals to indulge their predatory instincts? Do you really want the criminals to be in charge of administering justice?
Pro Libertate | April 18, 2007, 2:52pm | #
Do you really want the criminals to be in charge of administering justice?Right. Another reason against allowing this sort of thing. I think making them live like choir boys--though that may be a bad example, come to think of it--is the most appropriate punishment. That or enslaving them (which is likely Constitutional, as has been noted here before).
Iv'e been to prison. I was in a Texas state jail for a state jail felony ( possesion of marijuana > 2 ounces ). They dont ussually put you in jail for marijuana charges but i had several dirty drug tests for methamphetamine even after a probation extension. Ive cleaned up since then however. Rapes didnt happen every day. In fact i never witnessed one but they did happen. Ussually they happen to gays and people nobody likes. But where i went the prison official were inscistent that rape was a crime and you would be charged if you did it. The main problem is the culture of no snitching. If you get raped and you snitch you probably will get stabbed or worse. If you witness a rape and snitch you will be stabbed or worse. People know this and use it to their advantage. If no guards are watching its bassicly anything goes.
Mr. Steven Crane | April 18, 2007, 3:11pm | #
hi# (the lake looks okay today. nothing special though.), it'd be funny if only one person fell into the trap.but no, this being H&R, people love to pile on in righteous indignation and the fervor of proving how stridently libertarian they can be.
so it's not to keep one person from falling into the trap so much as it is to avoid twenty people turning troll's bait into an opportunity for chest-beating.
Bob Smith | April 18, 2007, 3:18pm | #
Since rape of *female* prisoners doesn't get a humorous byline, I conclude that we don't respect Human Rights, but we do respect Women's Rights.
The social demand for more punishment than lawfully declared (prison sentence) by tacitly approving of prison rape and satirizing it as humor underscores our hypocrisy as law revering citizens with a respect for Human Rights.
highnumber | April 18, 2007, 3:29pm | #
Mr Crane,Point taken. The pile-ons get really stupid really quickly.
Sorry about the lake. You'll get better days. Saturday should be gorgeous.
I'll be in Minnesota :-(
Pro Libertate | April 18, 2007, 3:43pm | #
highnumber,You call it Minnesota, we call it tundra.
I lived there for a year in 1991-92, and I'm still not fully thawed.
keith | April 18, 2007, 3:46pm | #
If the surveillance state can't stop crime in lockdown-able buildings where they already have a high ratio of wardens-to-wards and presumably all the surveillance technology they need...Maybe that should be the "if they can put a man on the moon" analogy against the surveillance state. If the state can't stop prison rape in prisons, how are cameras on every corner going to help? How are wiretaps going to help? How is the Patriot act going to help?
VM | April 18, 2007, 3:52pm | #
High#: Mrs. Number's family from there?is the toddler feeling better? is the Missus?
Keith - they put a man on the moon? What next? Andy Kaufman in a wrestling match?
when the front came through here yesterday, the lake was fantastically beautiful! white caps! clear sky. great lighting. Amazing.
Melanie | April 18, 2007, 3:57pm | #
re: Since rape of *female* prisoners doesn't get a humorous byline, I conclude that we don't respect Human Rights, but we do respect Women's Rights.Au contraire, there are plenty of willing comedy audiences for female on female rape, I am sure, thanks to the stereotype of female prisoners not being a relatable identity to the average citizen. Its just not even talked about if it does exist, which it probably does. The male on male prevalence and folkloric degree of prison rape is reknown and unmatched in conventional public discourse for a reason...It exists and is a serious crime. I was pointing to our humanistic idealism/misanthropy duality as we imagine ourselves such liberty seekers and protectors.
Pro Libertate | April 18, 2007, 4:08pm | #
My understanding was that all female prisoners are extremely attractive and have hot tubs in their cells. Is this not true?val | April 18, 2007, 4:21pm | #
I got a joke for you guys.--------------------------------------
So, two guys get busted for marijuana possession. The judge, having one of his lenient days, tells them that they can serve their sentense by doing a month of community service, where they will go around and try to turn people away from drugs. At the end of the month they would have to come back, and report on how well they did.
... a month passes, the two find themselves infront of the judge again...
'Well how many people did you help', the judge asks the first guy.
'17', he replies.
'Oh, well thats not bad. How did u do that?'
'I explained to them how badly drugs ruined my life, and some actually took it to heart'
'Good job, you're free to go', says the judge.'And how many did you help?'
'357', replied the second guy.
'Holy Shit', the judge exclaimed, 'How did you do that?'
'Well, I've always been a visual type of guy, so I drew them a diagram '
'Bailiff, can you bring this man a piece of paper and a pen, I want to see this diagram.'
The second guy drew a small cicle, next to a 4" circle.
'I dont get it', said the judge.
'Well I drew this, and told them; the smaller circle is your asshole, the larger circle is your asshole in jail'
--------------------------------------
As dispicable and reprehensible as I find the idea prison of rape, I chuckled the first time I heard that one.
I suppose Martha Stewart got the hot-tub.. Happy fantasies, boys.
trashcan man | April 18, 2007, 4:56pm | #
The way I saw it , you had two choices.You could fight em, or you could just relax and let em do their thing. If you fight, they just gonna get help and its gonna be worse. May as well relax and it'll be over soon enough.
highnumber | April 18, 2007, 5:05pm | #
Pro Lib,I put the kibosh on the trip in January. I was granted a reprieve only until April.
Minnesota in January? My wife is no longer authorized to plan any trips.
I suppose Martha Stewart got the hot-tub.. Happy fantasies, boys.
Melanie,
If there was a happy fantasy there, your Martha Stewart reference nixed it.
jf | April 18, 2007, 5:07pm | #
I completely agree with you, keith. Considering the state of prisons regarding rapes and the occasional riot, why isn't there complete surveillance inside of them? I swear if I ever do something to get me sent to the big house I hope I can end up in one of those Supermax prisons I've seen on the Discovery Channel, because those look like the safest places to do time.I really can't figure it out. Would having cameras viewing every square inch of a prison be a civil rights violation? Too expensive? Or are they afraid they could lead to lawsuits once rapes and assaults are caught on camera? What does the prison guards' union think?
Pro Libertate | April 18, 2007, 5:09pm | #
highnumber,I remember a January there when it didn't get higher than zero degrees for something like ten days. The sun was irrelevant.
By the way, here's a great argument for Ron Paul as president. I'd imagine an executive order ceasing federal prosecutions for drug possession, plus immediate pardons for non-violent drug offenders would go a long way in making federal and state prisons safer.
Reformatory for Men Veteran | April 18, 2007, 5:37pm | #
As a veteran of our prison system (albeit in enlightened Minnesota, as opposed to barbaric Texas or Arizona) I saw all sorts of severe ass kickings, but I never saw a violent rapeI did see weaklings get "turned out" by predatory inmates
But it was a capitalist transaction kind of thing. One that involved pressure from debt and/or promises of protection in return for hand jobs, blow jobs, or even buttsecks.
ask these guys (2 decades later) if they were raped in prison, and their overwhelming answer (beyond flat denial that it ever happened at all) would be "yes"
but they went into it at least as willingly as a cash strapped family signs on to a nasty balloon payment/equity devouring style mortgage, or the females (or males even) who decides renting strangers access to their nether regions beats getting a real job
the notion that guys are getting beat silly and ass raped left and right in prison strikes me as a folklore/urban legend type deal
no one's gonna ass rape someone unless the victim plays along to some degree
would you blow a guy to save yourself from 10 fistfights a year?
think of your teeth!
Melanie | April 18, 2007, 5:53pm | #
Melanie,If there was a happy fantasy there, your Martha Stewart reference nixed it.
Yep. Totally my intention, I assure you.
Time for class. I'm goin' in, cover me.
jf | April 18, 2007, 6:21pm | #
Someone help me. Does Reformatory for Men Veteran make a lick of sense, or not? I can almost discern a point in that post (but, alas, not a period), but I really can't figure out the message.This is a bleg!
Law Student | April 18, 2007, 6:52pm | #
JF-He's basically rationalizing the agreed-upon contract of prison rape on the grounds that both free parties freely decided and concluding that no rape takes place because of this fact of freedom. He is missing the point, resulting in others not getting it, because he denies or omits the reality of coercion in unequal power structures in a prison where might is right, a fact of which others are aware. The "rapee" is not really making a "free"decision, faced with two abusive choices as if a third, law and order, does not exist.
law student | April 18, 2007, 6:58pm | #
His Point:getting turned out by a predatory inmate is not violent rape
Does he make sense?
No, totally incoherent and specious.
law student | April 18, 2007, 7:26pm | #
He also uses the phrase "violent rape" which makes me wonder about his views and definitions of plain old-fashioned "rape".. By his "logic" : If we both agree that you won't harm me if I let you have sex with me, then this is not violent rape, it may be rape, but is definitely okay and to be expected and justified, but nonetheless I agreed with you and entered freely into this exchange. This is appeal to force...ad baculum...a formal fallacy...Gosh I love distractions...What would we do without them?
Take Care
Mr. F. Le MUr | April 18, 2007, 8:08pm | #
One thing omitted from Young synopsis, of course, is the racial aspect:“The Culture of Prison Sexual Violence”:
Lockwood identified characteristics of targets and aggressors and salient
features of different kinds of aggressive incidents important to understanding the
culture of prison sex. He found targets were significantly more likely to be white,
while aggressors were significantly more likely to be black.
Does the fact that this doesn't match the current PC attitude that "blacks are victims and whites are oppressors" have anything to do with the fact that it's allowed to continue?
anonymous coward | April 18, 2007, 8:23pm | #
Au contraire, there are plenty of willing comedy audiences for female on female rape, I am sure, thanks to the stereotype of female prisoners not being a relatable identity to the average citizen. Its just not even talked about if it does exist, which it probably does.BoundHeat.com
Internet's finest original and uncut movies about sapphic women in prison and white slaves.
Women in prison films
Bound Heat is entirely dedicated to the genre of women in prison and beautiful lesbian erotica and white slavery.
melanie | April 18, 2007, 8:33pm | #
exactly my point...thank you for giving us fictionalized prisoners in the form of actresses straight from Hollywood tired of waitressing and serving sexMelanie | April 18, 2007, 8:34pm | #
meaning:serving sex pays better than serving food....
Melanie | April 18, 2007, 8:47pm | #
Yes. Just ask Beverly Hills wives, duh...Grand Chalupa | April 18, 2007, 9:47pm | #
Agreed, although Grand Chalupa is real, and I've seen him defend prison rape on H&R while ironically claiming to be a libertarian (I suppose he thinks people in prison on drug charges deserve to be raped as well).I haven't posted in a week and you're still obsessed with me?
Never defended prison rape.
How bout getting your self worth some other way than cowardly typing messages to people you don't know and saying things on anonymous internet site that you would never have the balls to say in person?
Jim M | April 18, 2007, 11:12pm | #
Quote:"While you would have to scrape the bottom of the Internet to find people saying that the fear of sexual assault is a good deterrent to would-be lawbreakers, it is safe to say that prison rape is not a high priority for most American voters."
You don't have to scape the bottom of the Internet barrel to find that. Just scrape the government barrel. Have you never heard of a "Scared Straight" program where the state law enforcement officials take teen-age boys who are in some small trouble for a tour of the State Prison? There, the rules are laid out clearly for those teenagers. Mess up and get caught, and you will be in here as Bubba's new bride.
So the state is saying, both explicitly and by its actions, that sexual assault is a good deterrent to would-be lawbreakers. And the state is not only saying that, IT IS DELIBERATELY USING the threat of that sexual assault.
I'm afraid sexual assault in prison will never be stopped as long as the state profits from it.
Bill Adams | April 18, 2007, 11:35pm | #
"While jokes about male-on-female rape are widely viewed as taboo in this feminist age, male-on-male rape in prison is a perfectly acceptable and common subject of humor on late-night comedy shows, in movies, and even in TV commercials."This actually understates it. Every average sitcom, late night or not, will _invariably_ toss in a rape joke at any mention of arrest or prison (and the prospect of getting arrested is a frequent subject in sitcoms). Always gets a huge laugh; it's a staple.
jf | April 19, 2007, 8:01pm | #
BTW, Justin Raimondo is an asshat.Take this piece by Cathy Young, recently downsized out of her longtime perch at the Boston Globe and relegated to the relatively obscure pages of Reason magazine,What is he talking about? Click here for more (if you dare read the ramblings of said asshat).
I can only feel sorry for those who take this issue as a joke. Obviously none of you have been victims of crimes by real crimminals. We all have someone in our lives who took the wrong road and just imagine how you would feel if they were raped or murdered. Dont hide behind that " if you did the crime...do the time crap". Remember those who rape in prison are those who rape innocent people upon being released in parole. I hardly met a rapist who is serving a life sentence. So the next time we are crying at a funeral asking why did this happen, we should figure out any improvement methods. Prison is one of those places thats in need of one of those improvements.