Reason's special forum on the anniversary of 9/11 begins with Ronald Bailey's question: When in Washington, why do what the Romans do?
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Comments to "New at Reason":
John | September 6, 2006, 3:55pm | #
"Unless the public, Congress, and the courts resist the president's sweeping assertion of executive authority, the future of the American Republic in the 21st century is at risk."Ah Jesus Christ Ronald. Ever hear of the Alien and Sedition Acts? What about Lincoln suspending habius? What about Roosevelt interning the Japanese? The Republic survived all of that and a lot more. I think it can survive George Bush. Stop with they histrionics.
Joseph Majsterski | September 6, 2006, 4:32pm | #
Well, look at it this way. Only two more years until a Clinton is back in the White House. I can't wait to start bitching about high taxes instead of lost civil liberties.R C Dean | September 6, 2006, 4:34pm | #
Unless the public, Congress, and the courts resist the president's sweeping assertion of executive authority, the future of the American Republic in the 21st century is at riskOh, the American Republic is long gone, a casualty of the drug war, the welfare state, and a functionally illiterate Supreme Court.
Compared to the depredations against our Constitutional scheme that have occurred over the past 70 years, Bush's innovations are trivial.
Bubba Zanetti | September 6, 2006, 5:06pm | #
The only problem with this thesis is that Caesar was long identified with the Populares, i.e., the legacy of the Gracchus brothers and Marius, who wanted to expand decisionmaking power away from the Senate and into the Equestrian class and the cursus honorum, or elected officials.Also, Caesar was declared an enemy of the state by the Senate (who was in Pompey's camp) after he returned from Gaul, and only after his forces fought and defeated Pompey's in the civil war was he declared dictator.
His actions while dictator were egalitarian for their time, and he also pardoned everyone who took up arms against him in the civil war in a bid for stability, which obviously got him killed.
Other than that, Bailey's thesis is fine.
Pro Libertate | September 6, 2006, 5:07pm | #
While Roman liberty differed quite a bit from ours, even during the Republic, it's instructive that Roman liberty really started to disappear when the checks and balances of its constitution became increasingly irrelevant. Our Constitution was designed with the Roman successes and failures in mind--unfortunately, those guys aren't around today to explain why these abuses of power are a bad idea. Whether the abuses come justified in the name of our various wars or "wars" or to promote equality or to educate our children. Unchecked power is a bad thing--hasn't anyone figured that out yet?I blame Marius, myself.
Tim Cavanaugh | September 6, 2006, 5:29pm | #
Speaking of Marius, whatever happened to our own lowercased lion of lamentation? His blog was last updated in July, but he's been missing from these green pastures for much longer than that.highnumber | September 6, 2006, 5:57pm | #
tim,he's still updating his shared cubs blog.
if you are looking for a place to begin discussing the decline and fall of western civilization...
(all caps removed in his honor.)
Eric the .5b | September 6, 2006, 6:30pm | #
Well, look at it this way. Only two more years until a Clinton is back in the White House. I can't wait to start bitching about high taxes instead of lost civil liberties.Yeah, but you'll still lack those civil liberties.
Me, I'm waiting patiently for the first Democrat to say "I'll stop torture and undo PATRIOT if you elect me." He or she will get my vote.
However, I won't hold my breath.
Don Coyote | September 6, 2006, 6:40pm | #
Fear terrorist! yikesFear loss of liberties! yikes
I fear neither, both are checking each other fairly well (within our gov) given the environment we live. The only thing I have lost recently are my glasses.
Another check not applied by our founders is the unanticipated world opinion, not necessarily via the UN.
And, of all the history, why always the Romans?
rightisright | September 6, 2006, 6:55pm | #
What civil liberties have been taken away? Iam still doing everything I did when Clinton
or Bush1 or whomever was president. I for one
realize the reality of our current enemies
resolve to remove me from the earth if I don't
convert to their ways. And if listening to my
phone calls, reading my mail or whatever is
necessary to find out I am or am not a threat
to this country, spy away, I have nothing to
hide. Your paranoia will distroy ya. The downfall
of this country, if it comes, will be directly
because of the legalization of illegal immigration. We are being invaded by people who
have no desire to be Americans and when enough
of them are here, your civil liberty issues
will seem as trivial as our current immigration
laws appear to be now.
MUTT | September 6, 2006, 7:12pm | #
We are being invaded by people whohave no desire to be Americans and when enough...blahblah.
And when, exactly, did you show up, nitwit?
Brian Courts | September 6, 2006, 7:17pm | #
Your paranoia will distroy ya.From someone apparently well acquainted with the concept:
We are being invaded by people who
have no desire to be Americans
Reg | September 6, 2006, 7:19pm | #
Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, and Truman all went far beyond what Bush has done in claiming Article II powers. There's a lot more, but what's the point.I'm embarassed for this magazine. I don't think I've ever seen such an ignorant display on a mainstream website. Weigel has some catching up to do to match this abomination.
Brian Courts | September 6, 2006, 7:30pm | #
We are being invaded by people whohave no desire to be Americans
if listening to my
phone calls, reading my mail or whatever is
necessary to find out I am or am not a threat
to this country, spy away, I have nothing to
hide.
No, I would say it is you who has no desire to be an American in any sense of what being an American should mean. Would that we could deport you as readily as those who come here seeking a life with the very freedoms you seem so eager to surrender.
rightisright | September 6, 2006, 7:30pm | #
I have no problem with immigration, I, like you ameither an immigrant or the decendant of one. Native Americans immigrated, just sooner than your ancestors. When illegal immigrants come to my state and work for a end of picking season lump some paycheck while draining the welfare system until that payday, yes I get upset.
They have no desire to learn our language, they
disrespect our citizens and in someplaces
double the crime rate. My wife who works for the
county social services, food stamp eligibility office, CANNOT, by law, report an illegal alien who applies for food stamps, unless they break the law, because it is a violation of their civil
rights. Since when is illegally entering our
country not breaking the law?
Mutt, are you as good at interpreting the law as
you are at showing your immaturity with your name
calling. Lets see how many more names you can come up with, you can do better than nitwit.
Actually the political crisis in Rome began in 133 BC, saw a couple decades of political murder and violence, outright civil war in the ninties's and 80's, the revival of dictatorship the increasing use of armed force to change the constitution, the seizure of power (in 60 BC) by 3 generals and then their civil war, caesar's dictatorship, his assassination another civil war and then the establishment of the empire (de facto, not de iure) in 27 bc. Then there are the other things wrong with the analogy....
Terry | September 6, 2006, 7:55pm | #
BTW: Does anyone know of a website where they have videos of people jumping AND hitting the pavement?Thanks
rightisright | September 6, 2006, 8:09pm | #
"No, I would say it is you who has no desire to be an American in any sense of what being an American should mean."Brian
Please tell me what being an American should mean.
You want to deport me for voicing my opinion in the same thread that people are whinning about
loosing civil liberties. Apparently being an
American to you means it's ok to deny me my 1st
Ammendment rights if it suits you.
And again I ask??? What freedoms have I or you
surrendered? What is it you want to do that you
are not being allowed to do? Talk on the phone
without the fear of big brother listening, what
is it. If you feel like you are going to get caught doing something, you are probably doing
something you shouldn't.
This article proves one thing; It is incredibly difficult to consistently come up with meritorious thoughts, and put those thoughts in writing. Bailey has written things in the past that have enriched my thought process, for that I am grateful. Sadly, not this time.
Ayn_Randian | September 6, 2006, 8:13pm | #
Ok, rightisright, next time you have sex with your wife (for a less incendiary example, insert "use the john", if you so please), just let us all watch. I mean, it's not wrong, so why are you worried?you are probably doing
something you shouldn't.
Probably ain't certainly, me foine bucko.
In case Bailey needs suggestions for his next article, I suggest he write about George Bush and how Bush's mideastern wars parallel with the beginning of the crusades. Or how Bush and the religious right are trying to impose a theocracy on the country and its historical parallels.
no, no, no, how 'bout how Bush really planned 9/11. yeah, H&R can do a story on that, and like, maybe talk about the price of oil and shit.....hey, I know........maybe how Brown & Root really run the gov't and how they really started planning 9/11 in the 1980's ......wait a minute, I just thought of something......I'll bet that whole landing on the moon shit was fake. yeah, go with that H&R.
lesson | September 6, 2006, 8:48pm | #
Here is an outline of most stories written today:In the beginning, the big bang took place.
There have been ups and downs, but basically some shit happened between then and now to make this place near perfect.
Bush fucked it all up. Every bit of it.
Now, just post or otherwise publish that crap and then receive just rewards from peers.
mk | September 6, 2006, 8:53pm | #
Rome went south when Aeneas sailed west instead of east or, alternately, when Romulus failed to appreciate Remus' right to exist.Beat that suckas
sorryinadvance | September 6, 2006, 8:57pm | #
Reamus and Anus? Are you sure you aren't talking about the Greeks?Don Coyote | September 6, 2006, 9:30pm | #
Cartoonist prepare! Bush and Ahmadinejad plan on speaking at the UN on 9/19 and Chavez on 9/20.A erudite convention, not.
No wonder Bush is releasing previously held info on classified CIA prisons (which is OK by me). Expect stuff Iran can prove and expose to be publicly released prior to dates above.
Reason enough to move the UN to a remote island so no country has to deal with much of the immunity BS.
carrick | September 6, 2006, 9:31pm | #
I for one realize the reality of our current enemies resolve to remove me from the earth if I don't convert to their ways. And if listening to myphone calls, reading my mail or whatever is
necessary to find out I am or am not a threat
to this country, spy away, I have nothing to
hide.
Dear comrade, you are by far one of the most dangerous people in America. I fear you far more than any terrorist.
It's oh so easy to give up "someone else's" liberties. It's also easy to send "someone else" into battle or bomb "someone else's" home. It's easy to associate those detained forever without hope of trial or hearing with the suicide bombers of 911. They aren't the same people! Are we there to pursue justice - or to make "someone else" pay for the crimes of the people we haven't caught for the attack of 911? If we want justice I have to ask the following question: "Where are the convictions"?
Fabius Maximus | September 6, 2006, 11:16pm | #
The big mistake was letting Scipio go to Africa.I too miss "lieutenant lowercase."
highnumber | September 6, 2006, 11:54pm | #
MUTT,Did you do ludes back in the day? rightisright reminds me of how your writing style might devolve if you were on ludes (and a nitwit).
The voice I hear when I read righisright's comments is a very moany whine.
Akira MacKenzie | September 6, 2006, 11:56pm | #
And if listening to my phone calls, reading my mail or whatever is necessary to find out I am or am not a threat to this country, spy away, I have nothing to hide.Spoken like a true fascist pig...
The downfall of this country, if it comes, will be directly because of the legalization of illegal immigration. We are being invaded by people who
have no desire to be Americans and when enough
of them are here, your civil liberty issues
will seem as trivial as our current immigration
laws appear to be now.
...and racist scum.
Tim Cavanaugh | September 7, 2006, 12:56am | #
Ixnay on the name-calling.Conan | September 7, 2006, 1:23am | #
As Rome exercised political and military control over more and more territory, political rivalries began to tear at the constitutional fabric of the Roman Republic, and eventually civil wars broke out, leading to cries for a more powerful central government.This one's so bad it doesn't even get all the way out of the squirt gun. No, it plugs the squirt gun UP.
You could use the same argument against any body politic holding sway over anything larger than Long Island. Or a city block, even. "The Boyz in the Hood were fine until they went one block too far, those fools!" And the Godfathers, they offered one "deal you can't refuse" too many.
Not to mention the fact that we're still a whole long ways away from annexing any new territory. I've yet to hear any talk of Iraq becoming the 51st state. Sooner or later, we will leave that hell hole to its demise (and when we do, the Iraqis on net average will almost certainly be as miserable as they are now, which is probably about as miserable on net average as they were under Saddam).
No, if the Romans had invaded Iraq there never would have been any debate about Saddam, nor any worries about the cost. The only question Romans would have been asking each other was, "how much do you suppose we're going to make off all that oil?" And nobody would have been saying "now why the hell did we go and do that?" after the fact.
Clearly, we aren't very much like the Romans.
Your grasp of history is less than firm, Ron.
As many above have remarked, the Roman Senate had become utterly inept long, long before Julius came along.
Bush isn't the end of Being American As We Know It. He just really, really pisses off people who lean Democrat. But there's none of those around here, are there?
Rick Barton | September 7, 2006, 1:46am | #
Ron:Unless the public, the Congress, and the courts resist the president's sweeping assertion of executive authority, the future of the American Republic may also be similarly at risk by the middle of the 21st century.
And unless these countervailing forces are effective in resisting, the lasting damage of the 9/11 attacks will be what they engenderd the government to do to our liberty.
John:
The Republic survived all of that and a lot more.
No. These powers are worse cuz they give the government the capacity to punish future dissent with a frightening degree of impunity, some of which is due to the surreptitious nature of these powers.
Conan | September 7, 2006, 3:18am | #
No Rick, John is right. We've survived things this bad and worse. The pendulum swings, and sooner or later it will change directions. We really aren't still living under the kinds of things our government did during WWII, for example, many of which were of "surreptitious nature".What the pendulum swing doesn't fix is the inevitable creep of beauracratic bloat, which happens to everybody over time (yeah, even the Romans). That bloat, combined with modern technology, just makes Bush look a lot more scary to us than maybe an FDR.
Make no mistake, FDR was a tyrant in his own ways.
Rick Barton | September 7, 2006, 3:35am | #
Conan,Even given your optimistic view, the pendulum changing directions is dependant on the successful resistance by, as Ron said, the public, the Congress, and the courts.
thoreau | September 7, 2006, 8:25am | #
First, great article Ron!Second, I do think we'll recover from this, but I don't think we'll recover all the way. Every time something like this happens it pushes us a little farther down a dangerous path. I don't want to find out what's at the end of the path. And I don't want to take the risk that the recovery will be slow, and in the midst of that recover another ambitious President will come along.
And whatever we don't recover will be kept as part of the Drug War, which will be with us between crises.
Finally, what scares me most about this is that even if we do recover, we were pushed into crisis by a threat that is much, much smaller than the threats that FDR, Lincoln, and others used to increase their powers. The fact that Al Qaeda can inspire the same level of fear (and the associated over-reaction) as the combined military and industrial might of Germany, Japan, and Italy says something very sad about the American people.
matthew hogan | September 7, 2006, 9:24am | #
"The fact that Al Qaeda can inspire the same level of fear (and the associated over-reaction) as the combined military and industrial might of Germany, Japan, and Italy says something very sad about the American people"Basically the idiot (eg LGF) calculus on that runs as follows:
3000 dead (9/11) x 1 billion Muslims = THE TRUE THREAT (and don't you see it, you nihilistic dhimmi moonbat??!!)
Aren't all presidents ambitious? Although some focus more on domestic issues while others are more international in taste.
Seamus | September 7, 2006, 10:10am | #
We are being invaded by people whohave no desire to be Americans and when enough...blahblah.
And when, exactly, did you show up, nitwit?
Jeez, MUTT (and Akira, and everyone else who felt compelled to rise to rightisright's bait): please don't feed the trolls.
Son of a! | September 7, 2006, 10:18am | #
Ok, rightisright, next time you have sex with your wife (for a less incendiary example, insert "use the john", if you so please), just let us all watch. I mean, it's not wrong, so why are you worried?I prefer the example of, "cast your vote."
Rick Barton | September 7, 2006, 11:01am | #
What thoreau PhD asid. Which was:...we were pushed into crisis by a threat that is much, much smaller than the threats that FDR, Lincoln, and others used to increase their powers.