Kerry Howley interviews prostitute-turned-novelist Tracy Quan
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thoreau | November 7, 2005, 8:16am | #
So, I've heard that Iran actually has a legalized form of prostitution, whereby you go to the brothel...um, I mean, wedding mosque, and you enter into a "temporary marriage" with the prostitute. There's a cleric there to bless the "temporary marriage" (for a fee, of course).Anybody know anything about this? Maybe we could find a loophole in the Old Testament to allow paid "temporary marriages", and persuade the Red States that God is OK with it.
jf | November 7, 2005, 8:41am | #
Maybe we could find a loophole in the Old Testament to allow paid "temporary marriages", and persuade the Red States that God is OK with it.Because, you know, prostitution is perfectly legal and accepted in all those blue states...
David | November 7, 2005, 8:51am | #
Maybe we could find a loophole in the Old Testament to allow paid "temporary marriages", and persuade the Red States that God is OK with it.Thoreau,
I think you're kidding but I doubt that the old testament would be used that way. As it stands, it's used selectively to condemn things Jesus didn't address that the fundies don't like.
Akira MacKenzie | November 7, 2005, 9:02am | #
David:I always thought it was the reverse myself; the fundies dwell in the fire, brimstone, and smiting of bowels of the Old Testament until the cameras are on them and they have to haul out the Jesus-loves-us rhetoric to look less repugnant.
thoreau | November 7, 2005, 9:10am | #
jf-I only brought up the red ones because they're more numerous, and religious arguments certainly won't fly in the blue ones :)
David | November 7, 2005, 9:16am | #
Good point, Akira, but they do skip over the sections about pork, proper hair and dress, dashing the children of your enemies against rocks.They seem to use it to focus on sex. All sex, all the time. Probably, because most people feel vulnerable about sex and it's an easy subject to beat on.
This is all very shocking to someone resistant to seeing nuances in human behavior.
This is Kristoff to a tee, but not his weakness alone. I think this is what enables most of the "consensual crime" legislation. For some people(sadly, it seems most people) every action has some victim.
Akira Mackenzie | November 7, 2005, 9:20am | #
...but they do skip over the sections about pork, proper hair and dress, dashing the children of your enemies against rocks.At least, not yet...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism
Jennifer | November 7, 2005, 9:24am | #
Quan made some extremely good points here, especially in regards to how an unfortunate third-worlder might prefer prostitution to working in a sweatshop all day. I'd never thought about it before, but (assuming I had protection from AIDS, babies and other sex-related unpleasantness) having sex with a few guys every day would likely be far, far preferable to bending over a sewing machine for fourteen hours a day.Thoreau--
I've heard about the Iranian marriage-prostitutes, too. Perhaps it's their version our our fundie "Abstinence until marriage but oral sex doesn't count" population. Except ours don't have the sense to get paid.
Rich Ard | November 7, 2005, 9:34am | #
"Kerry Howley interviews prostitute-turned-novelist Tracy Quan"What, hookers don't get periods?
Steven Crane | November 7, 2005, 9:44am | #
That's clever, Rich Ard. Real clever.A prostitute damning Times Square as more "vulgar and offensive" than it was in the pre-Giuliani days? You won't find that in the Weekly Standard!
Stevo Darkly | November 7, 2005, 10:10am | #
Tracy Quan is hot!Possibly not quite as hot at the typical female H&R poster, but still pretty damn hot.
I hope to return and make a more substantive comment at a later time. But for now, comments like this are what my public expects of me.
Al Goldstein once said that you don't pay a prostitute to fuck you, but to leave afterwards.
Stevo Darkly | November 7, 2005, 10:28am | #
I'm so awful in bed, prostitutes pay me not to have sex with them.Thank you.
I'm so bad in bed, I have to fake my own orgasms.
Thank you. I'm here all week.
Jennifer | November 7, 2005, 10:29am | #
I'm so bad in bed, I have to fake my own orgasms.Don't you mean, "I'm so bad in bed I fake orgasms when I masturbate?"
Stevo Darkly | November 7, 2005, 10:30am | #
Yeah, that.Stevo, as one of your fans I thank you for stooping to meet my expectations.
Stevo Darkly | November 7, 2005, 10:31am | #
Wait -- are you implying there's another way I could have orgasms?Steven Crane | November 7, 2005, 10:33am | #
Darkly's so bad in bed that his RealDoll(TM) left him for a woman.Jennifer | November 7, 2005, 10:35am | #
are you implying there's another way I could have orgasms?Read the article, honey. Read the article.
Ruthless | November 7, 2005, 11:00am | #
"Reason: Has the acknowledgement of female desire led to women taking greater enjoyment in sex?Quan: I think we're enjoying sex more than we did in the past because we have birth control."
I was sort of hoping she would have faked a better answer... maybe with sound effects?
fyodor | November 7, 2005, 11:09am | #
So, prostitutes would rather be illegal than zoned? Wow.I never did figure out what she wanted in lieu of complete legalization, though. Maybe she just wants the prostitution laws to not be enforced? That would be cool for all of us. Everything we do for a living should be illegal but none of those laws ever enforced. Not only would zoning laws not apply to our tacitly approved activities, we wouldn't have to pay any taxes either!!
thoreau | November 7, 2005, 11:13am | #
fyodor-I'm absolutely shocked that somebody who profited from black market pricing might prefer something just short of outright legalization!
Akira MacKenzie | November 7, 2005, 11:18am | #
"Reason: Has the acknowledgement of female desire led to women taking greater enjoyment in sex?Quan: I think we're enjoying sex more than we did in the past because we have birth control."
I think it's much more than just that. Just a little over a century ago most "experts" in polite society proclaimed that women took NO enjoyment from sex whatsoever and put up with it for the purposes of procreation and to satisfy their husbands' carnal demands. Somewhere a long the line, mainstream women had to rediscover the orgasm and find out that with proper precautions (i.e. birth control) that sex could be fun.
Yes, the pill and the rubber helped, but a cultural change in how women viewed sex may have had much more to do with it.
jf | November 7, 2005, 11:19am | #
I only brought up the red ones because they're more numerous, and religious arguments certainly won't fly in the blue ones :)thoreau:
I know, I was just giving ya a hard time.
Ruthless | November 7, 2005, 11:26am | #
Akira,My point was that a truly liberated woman should have answered, "Hot damn!" or something to that effect.
Can I get an AMEN from a liberated woman? (If there are any.)
Stevo Darkly | November 7, 2005, 11:35am | #
Akira -- Not that I am any expert (I'm so bad in bed ...), but I think a lot of it just had to do with information. Or lack of it. Not so long ago (like five minutes ago), before there were so many books, magazines, talk shows, and Web sites about it, a lot of guys were educated only in the bare mechanicals of the sex act, and didn't know much about what they could do to actually help a woman feel good. And women couldn't help them because most of them really didn't know either. Or else they didn't feel they could talk about it.Jennifer | November 7, 2005, 11:44am | #
As to what Stevo said about lack of information, there exists (especially in the South) a variety of male (whom Florence King called "the bad good ole boy") who thinks the penis is like some electrified magic wand, and as soon as it enters the female it generates these orgasmic ecstacy-waves that makes the female's entire universe explode into blinding light or something. I dunno. I don't understand how anybody like this can still exist in post-1967 America, but I suppose the female equivalent would be the woman who simply lies there on the theory that her mere presence is enough to drive a man insane.Y'know, our desire for sex is certainly hard-wired into us, but I think pretty much every hang-up we've got about it (except things like fear of disease or pregnancy) is an invention. Maybe we'll get over it in a few generations. People decry the sexualization of our society, but in the long run maybe it's a good thing.
Larry A | November 7, 2005, 11:52am | #
I'm absolutely shocked that somebody who profited from black market pricing might prefer something just short of outright legalization!While that might be part of it, I think she's also thinking about how prostitution might be legalized. Look at adult bookstores. In many cities the First Amendment has kept them "legal." But zoning laws, for instance "not within a mile of a school or a church," have made it impossible to open one. In many towns all the adult stores are in the county, just outside the city limits, along with firework stands and other such.
Or how about gun-control-like rules that require each customer to register on a permanent log accessible to law enforcement and vulnerable to public media exposure.
The sex worker organization portrayed in your second novel uses a sewing machine with a line through it as a logo.
Blue state strategy: Legalize sex work! Close down sweatshops!
Ruthless | November 7, 2005, 11:52am | #
Whachoo mean "in a few generations"?(thoreau already has the Little Woman and me waiting for the next "prime" calendar year.)
My electrified magic wand had been yearning for some gratification a little more immediate.
M1EK | November 7, 2005, 11:54am | #
"So, prostitutes would rather be illegal than zoned? Wow."I thought her point was that New York had effectively made certain adult activities illegal with zoning -- not prostitution per se, but the other stuff. Hard to tell, though; the writer/interviewer didn't make it very clear.
liberated woman | November 7, 2005, 11:57am | #
a variety of male (whom Florence King called "the bad good ole boy") who thinks the penis is like some electrified magic wand, and as soon as it enters the female it generates these orgasmic ecstacy-waves that makes the female's entire universe explode into blinding light or something.Clearly they are confusing their organs with our vibrator collections, Jennifer.
Ha ha ha! Victory is mine.
thoreau | November 7, 2005, 12:01pm | #
Larry A-Good comments. Especially on registration. If legalization meant the end of privacy then I imagine the black market would continue.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 7, 2005, 12:12pm | #
Tracy Quan is hot!Compared to the hot chicks hanging on Drew Carey in Las Vegas over the weekend Tracy Quan has black marks on her cheeks from chasing cars and biting tires.
Since everybody at the Reason shindig in Lost Wages was using real names, I'm not sure how many of you guys were there but if you missed it you missed a really well done event. It was fabulous. Relentlessly hectic but absolutely great.
I was kind of hoping that somebody from Reason would put a review up today so I could comment on what a great show it was. Accourse Tim Cavanaugh drove back to San Francisco and probably wasn't able to drag his tired butt (and family) out of the car until a half hour ago. That might be part of it. :-)
Those guys have just got to be wiped.
cowardly female | November 7, 2005, 12:15pm | #
Compared to the hot chicks hanging on Drew Carey in Las Vegas over the weekend Tracy Quan has black marks on her cheeks from chasing cars and biting tires.Are we talking about the same Drew Carey from Cleveland?
Is it coincidental that prostitution is legal in Vegas? Methinks not....
fyodor | November 7, 2005, 12:24pm | #
M1EK,I thought her point was that New York had effectively made certain adult activities illegal with zoning
I don't know if she went that far, but zoning can certainly do that, as Larry A points out. Of course, legalizing an activity but burdening it with regulations that make it impractical leaves you in essentially the same circumstance, neither better nor worse. If this were her reasoning, it would make more sense for her to say, "Yes we want legalization, but not with zoning restrictions that might as well make it illegal." Maybe she just didn't have her thoughts well collected.
Isaac Bartram | November 7, 2005, 12:34pm | #
Is it coincidental that prostitution is legal in Vegas?Actually Vegas is one of the places in Nevada where prostitution is illegal.
Akira MacKenzie | November 7, 2005, 12:43pm | #
A couple of years back, I caught a special on HBO on one of Nevada's more popular brothels. I was astonished by the prices they were charging their clients: $3000 to $5000 per "party" if memory serves me. Yikes!Larry A | November 7, 2005, 12:46pm | #
Jennifer: People decry the sexualization of our society, but in the long run maybe it's a good thing.Wellll...
There's a lot more suggestion of sexuality on TV and movies, in advertising, and sensual novels. But what else?
On the legitimate silver screen everything is under the sheet, and Hollywood treats sex as realistically as it does most other things (not very). Pornography is more graphic, but even less realistic.
Contrast that to "back then" when everyone lived on a farm or ranch, or had relatives who did. When there was dinner-table conversation about "We better get a new rooster or we're gonna run out of eggs." Sex education was basic and experiential.
Also, realize that my generation was the first one whose parents could go in their bedroom and shut the doors and windows. Before then, without air conditioning, kids could lie in bed and pretty much hear whatever was going on. Even if they didn't live in a one-room cabin. Or a tent. One of the stories I published is set in a tenement in 1946, and told how everyone along the airshaft could hear what was going on in other apartments. (And be inspired by it.)
And of course, we are also the first generations where marriage for women and sexual experience for men are (ideally) delayed much beyond puberty.
Maybe that's why we're obsessed about it.
Akira MacKenzie | November 7, 2005, 12:57pm | #
On the legitimate silver screen everything is under the sheet, and Hollywood treats sex as realistically as it does most other things (not very). Pornography is more graphic, but even less realistic.If the Christian Right really wanted to turn people off to sex, then they'd demand "realistic" depictions of intercourse in the media:
"Honey, move over."
"Ooff! Get you're knee off of my stomach. Are you hard yet?"
"Give me a minute..."
"Here, give it to me. Did you take your pill?"
"Yes, dear."
Jennifer | November 7, 2005, 1:05pm | #
Larry--Yes, in many ways life was more sexualized in the old days, or rather, people knew more about it, maybe, and were more aware of it in some ways than we are. I was thinking more in terms of styles and such.
Do you ever watch the cartoon "King of the Hill"? Peggy Hill is a dull, unattractive and not-too-bright housewife. LIke most cartoon characters, she wears the same clothes all the time--above-the-knee culottes and a sleeveless top. And this outfit is meant to make her look frumpy and unappealing. But a hundred years or so ago, you could only see a woman exposing that much skin in the Victorian equivalent of a strip club! Peggy would still be considered obscene today in places like Saudi Arabia.
Oh, yeah, and to take my point further--I was thinking about people who lament the fact that modern young woman routinely expose so much skin these days. Well, maybe in a hundred years it will be common for even staid, professional, sexless businesswomen to wear Paris Hilton belly-shirts and such, just as today's businesswomen can wear skirts that show the knee without necessarily being considered "sexy."
Rhywun | November 7, 2005, 1:21pm | #
So, prostitutes would rather be illegal than zoned? Wow.I think (?) what she meant was - sex shops, strip joints and the like have largely been zoned out of Manhattan. Having never heard of zoning for hookers... perhaps she's implying that hookers hang out near these businesses. It does seem that NYC's hookers have been pushed to more dangerous neighborhoods along with the strip joints.
Rhywun | November 7, 2005, 1:25pm | #
Peggy Hill is a dull, unattractive and not-too-bright housewife.Have YOU ever seen "King of the Hill"? I don't think she is supposed to be any of those things. "Plain" perhaps, but not "dull" or "unattractive".
Akira MacKenzie | November 7, 2005, 1:31pm | #
There is one thing that has always intrigued me about our sexual taboos: How the hell did they get started in the first place?Stevo Darkly | November 7, 2005, 1:32pm | #
Well, maybe in a hundred years it will be common for even staid, professional, sexless businesswomen to wear Paris Hilton belly-shirts and such,My rule: What people wear on Soul Train today is what they'll wear to church 15 years from now.
Jennifer | November 7, 2005, 1:35pm | #
Rhywun, a paraphrased Peggy Hill quote: "Bobby, get away from those houseplants! They'll suck the oxygen right out of you!" There are a couple of episodes where she shows potential for being kind of cool in a way, but for the most part she's presented as stupid and even kind of narcissistic: she's convinced she's fluent in Spanish even though entire episodes have centered on the fact that she speaks it worse than a Sesame Street fan; she frequently tried to elbow her way in to what she considers "intellectual" conversations. . . . and it just occurred to me that, while I don't mind the implications of me having time to post on the Internet during the workday, the thought of me being this knowledgeable and opinionated about Peggy Hill is probably not a good thing.If I still smoked I'd go out for a cigarette right now.
Anyway, Rhywun, whatever you think about Peggy Hill's personality, her outfit is NOT meant to give the implication "whore" or even "super-alluring sexy woman," but a little over a century ago her outfit would have been indecent. Grounds for arrest, even. But that's not the implication of baggy culottes and a sleeveless pullover today.
Larry A | November 7, 2005, 1:59pm | #
Oh, yeah, and to take my point further--I was thinking about people who lament the fact that modern young woman routinely expose so much skin these days. Well, maybe in a hundred years it will be common for even staid, professional, sexless businesswomen to wear Paris Hilton belly-shirts and such, just as today's businesswomen can wear skirts that show the knee without necessarily being considered "sexy."OTOH I entered the workplace about the same time the mini-skirt did, and any woman whose hem was anywhere near her knee was considered frumpy.
And two hundred years ago you had all those cleavage dresses, while today if a nipple pops on TV it's a federal offense.
In my male opinion, most women today seem to dress for professionalism or comfort, and save the sexy things for private. Other than the pros in Hollywood, etc.
My (depressing) guess is that the pendulum will swing back, and women of 2055 will be covered up again.
You never see an interview like that with a politician, where he/she actually speaks like an adult. Politicians speak like children (Bush) or like they're talking to children (Hilary) or both (Schumer). We are a nation of morons to put up with it.
BTW, "prostitute-turned-novelist" is a good tag line, but "novelist-turned-prostitute" is even better.
The Wine Commonsewer | November 7, 2005, 2:13pm | #
Cowardly Femme,Are we talking about the same Drew Carey from Cleveland?
Yes, Drew is a good friend of Reason and a spot on libertarian.
Is it coincidental that prostitution is legal in Vegas? Methinks not....
Las Vegas (Clark County, Nevada) is the one place in Nevada where prostitution is NOT legal. It IS however, mostly overlooked.
Actually, I'd prefer an interview with "prostitue-turned-Bush-Supreme-Court-nominee" Miers ...
The Wine Commonsewer | November 7, 2005, 2:18pm | #
Anybody remember the cop turned hook that ran for Light Governor on the LP ticket a few years back?Ruthless | November 7, 2005, 2:25pm | #
Norma Jean Almodovar.I had the pleasure of her acquaintance.
thoreau | November 7, 2005, 2:26pm | #
Isn't the Latin word "cum" traditionally used to describe somebody who undergoes a major life change? e.g. "Artist cum entrepreneur", "businessman cum cultural icon", etc.Or is my recollection faulty?
If I'm right, then Julian's phrase "prostitute-turned-novelist" needs to be rewritten.
Isaac Bartram | November 7, 2005, 2:27pm | #
Las Vegas (Clark County, Nevada) is the one place in Nevada where prostitution is NOT legal. It IS however, mostly overlooked.Unless things have changed it's also illegal in Washoe County (Reno). So that would be two places.
thoreau | November 7, 2005, 2:31pm | #
Isaac-Is it illegal in the whole county, or just in the city of Reno? I've seen the cops of Reno 911 do prostitution busts in the city limits, but I've also seen them arrest unruly clients at legalized brothels.
OK, Reno 911 might not be the best source for information on Nevada law, but still.
Ruthless | November 7, 2005, 2:50pm | #
thoreau,Didn't your priest ever explain the meaning of "cum" to you?
(Apologies to all here.)
I think it means "with/and."
There are 17 counties in Nevada, 10 (or 11?) don't have laws prohibiting it. All the heavily populated counties prohibit it, including Clark, Washoe, Carson, Douglas. Why do I know this?
The Wine Commonsewer | November 7, 2005, 2:55pm | #
Unless things have changed it's also illegal in Washoe County (Reno). So that would be two places.Point taken Issac. Actually there are about 4 or 5 counties in Nevada where prostitution is illegal as well as in the capital, Carson City.
Isaac Bartram | November 7, 2005, 2:56pm | #
I believe it's the whole county. I'm going back aways with my recollection.I couldn't tell how up to date this is, but I think it answers the question.
http://www.sexuality.org/l/workers/nevada.html
"In the United States, "it" is legal in only one of the fifty states, Nevada. And then not everywhere in Nevada; Las Vegas, Reno, Carson City and Lake Tahoe still have it illegal. Supposedly the city fathers (and mothers) don't think that prostitution contributes to the family-oriented image that these gambling centers want. So any "action" that you may get in these cities will be high-risk in more ways than one.
"It is only in certain counties in Nevada where prostitution is legal. State law forbids legal prostituion in counties which have a population over a certain number (hence the big cities are out); the remaining counties may have legal brothels, at local option. Not all do.
"Street-solicitation is illegal; only in licensed establishments can you legally meet a Lady of the Night." (emphasis mine)
Isaac Bartram | November 7, 2005, 2:58pm | #
Also this - everything you ever wanted to know.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada
The Wine Commonsewer | November 7, 2005, 3:00pm | #
Reason's new comment spam software zapped my earlier post that contained two links. A link to a hooker that ran for lt governor in Nevada a few years ago and the link to Norma Alvodor's book, the former LAPD vice cop turned hooker that ran for lt gov on the LP ticket in Ca. Ruthless knows her (not in any sort of carnal way I'm certain).cowardly female | November 7, 2005, 3:07pm | #
Blah blah blah....Regardless of where prostitution is legal in Nevada, my point was that D.C. is not an attractive enough man to warrant super-fine hotties on his arm. I guess money can buy you love, is what I was insinuating.
Larry A | November 7, 2005, 3:13pm | #
"It is only in certain counties in Nevada where prostitution is legal. State law forbids legal prostituion in counties which have a population over a certain number (hence the big cities are out); the remaining counties may have legal brothels, at local option. Not all do."Street-solicitation is illegal; only in licensed establishments can you legally meet a Lady of the Night."
"You can be a sex worker in Nevada, but only if you work for a corporation at a licensed house way the hell out in the desert somewhere."
Anyone still wondering why Quan is suspicious of legalization?
The Wine Commonsewer | November 7, 2005, 3:21pm | #
Reason: Has the acknowledgement of female desire led to women taking greater enjoyment in sex?Funny stuff. I have it on good authority that women have actually desired and enjoyed sex for tens of thousands of years.
Every generation mistakes its own sexual coming of age for a universal sexual coming of age and fails to realize that our parents and their parents and their parents before them thought sex was pretty fun. Which explains why there are billions of people floating around this earth instead of tens of thousands.
Libertarians are worse though because we understand how black markets work but still cannot imagine any oppressed woman in prudish 1940's America taking pleasure in sex and simply keeping her mouth shut about it.
Some of those women were so aware of the desire that they actually giggled about it with neighborhood friends over Bridge Mix at lunch on Wednesdays.
Ruthless | November 7, 2005, 3:26pm | #
TWCS,We simply haven't had the gigglers, screamers and moaners (not Mona, needless to say), join this thread yet.
Ruthless | November 7, 2005, 3:28pm | #
TWCS,I meant to add they're probably busy today taking dictation.
Iguana | November 7, 2005, 3:29pm | #
Cow Femme, your rather delicate point about the finely chisled features of Mr. Carey's facial anatomy were not missed.I think that point was also implicit in TWC's original post.
In fact, I think Drew even has a comedy sketch about exactly what it is money can buy for regular looking guys.
And finally, you notice that there are no trophy wives at Carey's house. Is that moral victory of some sort? Hmmm, perhaps it is.
fyodor | November 7, 2005, 3:47pm | #
I guess money can buy you loveNo doubt. Considering that Henry Kissinger said that fame was the greatest aphrodisiac, money might not even be D.C.'s most alluring attribute.
Actually, Kissinger said that power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.
FXKLM | November 7, 2005, 4:40pm | #
Al Goldstein once said that you don't pay a prostitute to fuck you, but to leave afterwards.That may be true for some guys, but not Al Goldstein. I've seen Al Goldstein. He doesn't need to pay a woman to make her leave.
Jennifer: I think you're missing the funniest aspect of Peggy Hill. Sitcoms are flooded with perfect mother characters who are brilliant, have successful careers, and are always right. The funny thing about Peggy Hill is that she thinks she's the stereotypical perfect mother sitcom character. If you look at the early episodes, she really was as smart as she thought she was. The stupid and deluded Peggy that we know today slowly evolved.
Stevo: The first girl I ever had sex with became a lesbian immediately afterward. The first (and only) prostitute I ever had sex with retired immediately afterward. It would be funny if it weren't true.
This thread reminded me of my youth in Germany. Every afternoon, on the bus returning to my village from High school, we would drive down the aptly titled 40-mark Strasse (I assume it's called 80-mark Strasse now). There were little pull-off places on the road where you could turn and purchase for yourself a bit of fun with some of the most incredibly unattractive women that have ever graced the earth in full view of every commuter that drove by. Where was it, you ask? Why, right next to the military base of course :)
Shem | November 7, 2005, 5:34pm | #
Well, maybe in a hundred years it will be common for even staid, professional, sexless businesswomen to wear Paris Hilton belly-shirts and such, just as today's businesswomen can wear skirts that show the knee without necessarily being considered "sexy."Considering that even Paris Hilton doesn't look attractive in most of the crap she wears, I sure hope not.
biologist | November 7, 2005, 8:09pm | #
is it wrong for me to read this article while imagining Kerry Howley and Tracy Quan doing this interview in the buff?Isn't the Latin word "cum" traditionally used to describe somebody who undergoes a major life change? e.g. "Artist cum entrepreneur", "businessman cum cultural icon", etc.
Or is my recollection faulty?
my dictionary says it means "along with"
If I'm right, then Julian's phrase "prostitute-turned-novelist" needs to be rewritten.
Comment by: thoreau at November 7, 2005 02:26 PM
EXACTLY!
Ken Shultz | November 7, 2005, 8:23pm | #
In my male opinion, most women today seem to dress for professionalism or comfort, and save the sexy things for private.An older woman I knew told me that when she was going to school--in the '50s that is--she was led to believe that, as a woman, she had three career choices--she could be a secretary, a teacher or a nurse. The path she chose was supposed to determine the kind of man she would marry, and that was what was really important. ...or so she was supposed to think.
Back then, or so I'm told, women wore dresses to work, almost exclusively. ...They wore a lot of makeup too. When people have few avenues of advancement open to them, I suspect they do the best they can with their available options. Most women had few avenues of advancement open to them outside of marriage back then, so it wouldn't surprise me to hear that they competed for male attention at work more so then than they do now that they have more opportunities.
These days, striving for the attention of men at work can get you shunned by other women--I've seen it happen. ...and workplaces are legally compelled to protect women from the sexual attention of male coworkers. Some companies' orientation literature would seem to suggest that being physically attracted to females is a crime.
It often seems that whether it's a club or church or school or work, women dress with each other in mind. Take the case of the--excuse me--fat girl in a belly shirt phenomenon. ...The attempt to dress provocatively for men in those cases is only interesting to them--or so it seems to me--in as much as it's an expression to other females. ...like the overweight girl I once saw in a very small shirt that read, "Your boyfriend thinks I'm cute."
So the pressure to be physically attractive to men, in the workplace, isn't what it was. And if women aren't looking for the attention of men at work, as perhaps they used to, why would we expect them to dress with us with in mind anymore?
Ken Shultz | November 7, 2005, 8:59pm | #
"Every generation mistakes its own sexual coming of age for a universal sexual coming of age and fails to realize that our parents and their parents and their parents before them thought sex was pretty fun."Every red-blooded American male thinks himself the world's greatest fighter, the world's greatest driver and the world's greatest lover. ...and they're all wrong except for me.
Ken Shultz | November 8, 2005, 10:10pm | #
Everybody's got somethin' to hide 'cept me and my monkey.