Some folks say video games make people violent. Well, Ron Bailey loves video games, and if people keep spreading such lies, he's going to go on an insane rampage.
New at Reason
Comments to "New at Reason":
When Sim City keeps putting churches next to my railroad stations, it makes me want to hurt somebody.
mike_twincites | June 29, 2005, 11:02am | #
Y'know, speaking of Simcity, I love that game. However, I detest those pesky ordinances.Oh well, guess I'll go back to playing Postal 2.
Fantasy violence is fun!
Out here.
SimCity tactics of using eminent domain to raze those churches (and parks) to redevelop the area into some good tax revenue sources is completely supported by Supreme Court.
I don't know. Last night I was playing Rome: Total War and felt an undeniable urge to sack Byzantium. Fortunately it was late and I was kinda hungry and, well, you know..
Last night, I saw a TV discussion where they trotted out the symbols of video game inspired violence, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. The ultimate shutdown for those who don't think violent games should be banned.
drf | June 29, 2005, 11:27am | #
David - are you in favor of that (legislation)?And if anybody out there denies the violence-inducing power of Trivia or Pictionary or Monopoly on White Zin Drinkers, just rejoice never having experienced Those Types
:)
dhex | June 29, 2005, 11:30am | #
"The ultimate shutdown for those who don't think violent games should be banned."hardly. what's [number of game players] minus 2?
No, The ulimate shutdown bit was sarcastic. The should be some sort of Godwin rule to prevent people like the shrill women from invoking Columbine to get people to nod along with whatever inane, save the children by banning something I don't approve of, legislation these idiots want.
drf | June 29, 2005, 11:41am | #
You bet, David.You have an umbrella case for "it's for the children, dammit".
Tacking on a thought from Cathy's article yesterday, someone mentions the usual caveats and footnoots when describing flag burning or anti war articles: "i love america... i love and support the troops" etc. We have one here: "we believe in saving the children. they're our most precious resource" or some such.
DAMMIT, MAN!!! IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN. SAVE THE CHILDREN. SAVE FERRIS. U Thant. Yew Tree. U-pha-mism. (channeling monty python at present. sorry)
dhex | June 29, 2005, 11:51am | #
oops. sorry david.well, i think the shutdown of the shutdown goes something like "i'd like you to take the number of players of violent titles and subtract two" or something like that. effective demagoguery for good guys, i guess.
CAT_Violations | June 29, 2005, 12:01pm | #
Funny, it might just be me, but I don't see many video gamers going out and assaulting, raping, etc. people at the same rates as athletes at all levels do. You don't see: "On-Line First Person Shooter Team Arrested for Rape". You do see that from athletes at various levels. Could it be that some "wholesome", nanny-state approved athletic activities inspire or attract violent types? (Nothing against athletes, just an observation.)And its interesting to note that concerns about psychiatric medications usually aren't mentioned when Columbine is discussed, even though they have been implicated in dozens, if not hundreds, of other suicides, homicides, assaults, etc. - including other school shootings. It isn't even mentioned when there are proposals (linked to the pharma industry) to test every kid in America and put large swaths of them on similar medications.
bigbigslacker | June 29, 2005, 12:03pm | #
The study found that "students who reported playing more violent video games in junior and high school engaged in more aggressive behavior."Or vice versa...though, not being a "researcher" who conducts "scientific" studies, I shouldn't comment.
sure you should, BBS. but like you said, "or vice versa". the thing that politicians are so fond of forgetting when it comes to these studies is that correlation does not equal causation.
Cyrano | June 29, 2005, 12:23pm | #
"This pattern of brain activation and inactivation is also seen in the brains of people who are asked to imagine acts of aggression."So, engaging in a simulation of aggression has a similar effect to imagining an act of aggression. Fucking brilliant.
eli | June 29, 2005, 12:27pm | #
You have to wonder if there is some kind of biological necessity behind this sort of violent play. After all, boys always played war, cops and robbers, cowboys and indians. Maybe videogames fulfill a "violent play" urge to exercise certain areas of the brain, an urge that would otherwise be expressed by actual violence, in the same way puppies play to learn adult behaviors but bored puppies tear the house to shreds.After all, if correlation equals causation (as the press seems to think), and violence has dropped since video games became popular, then violent video games are responsible for the drop in crime. We should be subsidizing them, not bannign them.
David | June 29, 2005, 12:28pm | #
Zach,Facts are of no importance when your argument turns on emotion.
david, that's not true at all! you're so full of shit!! go to hell!!!
Mr. Nice Guy | June 29, 2005, 12:35pm | #
""It's the worst in a series of violent and gruesome games that lower the common denominator of decency," thundered Sen. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) last week. Schumer is apoplectic over the new video game 25 to Life."Gee, thanks, Senator Jackass. I haven't heard yet of "25 to life". Now it's on my buy list. Eidos makes great games.
Currently I'm wasting a tremendous amount of hours playing Grand Theft Auto SA that came out recently for Xbox. I never knew deep within my total whitebread honkiness there lurked a black LA gangster..
Peace out to my families, a'ight?
Stevo Darkly | June 29, 2005, 12:49pm | #
If only there had been a first-person-shooter video game that let you simulate the experience of walking through a high school, shooting the kids you don't like, and finally blowing the place up, then Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold wouldn't have had to act out their fantasy in real life.joe | June 29, 2005, 12:53pm | #
Now now, zach, shouting obsencities and launching personal attacks on another poster isn't a very good way to keep the conversation civil and facilitate the exchange of ideas.It's more like something Hitler would do.
drf | June 29, 2005, 12:55pm | #
DAMMIT, Joe!!!!!I just spat water out on my monitor. Friggin hilarious. Oh shit. I nearly wet myself. :)
isildur | June 29, 2005, 12:56pm | #
You had me up until 'notoriously violent ... Halo 2'.Notoriously notorious, maybe. Just because it's a massively popular game with guns doesn't make it 'notoriously violent'. The level of violence in Halo 2 is on par with campy shoot-em-ups like Independence Day.
We're not talking about Postal, for instance, where you can light someone on fire and then put the fire out by pissing on them. Mostly you shoot up a bunch of aliens with vivid blue or green blood, and they are very careful to ensure that you never find yourself killing humans as part of the 'normal' gameplay.
It is a particular symptom of pop culture hysteria that it focuses on the most popular targets, rather than the most apropos targets. This usually results in sneers of contempt from people who have a clue about that particular area of pop culture.
I remember this from both the 'roleplaying games are evil' hysteria (D&D? Gimme a break; pick up a copy of Call of Cthulhu, you fundie freak) and the 'rock and roll is satanic' hysteria (You don't like AC/DC? Christ, listen to Cannibal Corpse).
SY | June 29, 2005, 1:04pm | #
Kids who go to Sunday School are 37% more likely to try to crucify their classmates.Kids who watch Popeye are 29% likely to eat spinach and start beating the snot out of people.
Kids who watch the Three Stooges are 63% more likely to grab someone's tongue with a pair of pliers, twist, and pull.
And kids who watch the Road Runner are 71% more likely to attach Acme skyrockets to their rollerskates and try to fly off the edge of a cliff.
linguist | June 29, 2005, 1:06pm | #
Having worked in an fMRI lab, I can tell you that interpreting these results in the way that these researchers have is by no means the only (or most logical way) to view the data."Curiously the frontal lobes are the seat of the executive functions of our brains. They are generally involved with foresight, planning, judgment, decision-making, and monitoring and managing social relations. This leads to the counterintuitive speculation that playing violent video games seems to stimulate cold calculation rather than inflamed tempers."
Actually, one could argue that this proves that they are playing a GAME, and that players are concentrating on the logic/game part and not the violence. I'm very familiar with these violent games, and the most violent scenes involve many atackers, usually shooting at the player. The brain is trying to account for and eliminate all those positions...it's cold STRATEGY, not coldblooded killing.
So should we expect someone playing chess not to shut down the emotional center and activate the logic lobes?! Sheesh.
linguist | June 29, 2005, 1:11pm | #
Oh and one thing more, to add to the stupidity. It's hard to actually measure this in an experimental setting, but isn't the whole basis of "temporary insanity" the idea that when extreme violence is committed, the frontal lobes are suppressed and emotion overrides them?!Sheesh again! These politicians ought to read a peer-reviewed journal, or take a logic class!
David | June 29, 2005, 1:24pm | #
Sheesh again! These politicians ought to read a peer-reviewed journal, or take a logic class!linguist,
That would only hurt their argument. It doesn't matter if there's no conclusive proof that violent games cause violent action if you can show a person who believes that video game violence caused the death of their child.
Brett | June 29, 2005, 1:41pm | #
We're not talking about Postal, for instance, where you can light someone on fire and then put the fire out by pissing on them.Sweet Jesus am I out of touch with the gaming world. Can I get Time Pilot on a Xbox?
Mr. Nice Guy | June 29, 2005, 2:00pm | #
Brett:No worries. I'm an old-school, 80s video game nerd, too, who loves Timepilot. But it seems every machine I played the fucking joystick would stick and the ship wouldn't move the way I intended. If that in itself didn't result in rage and bloodshed at the arcade, what the fuck are these nannies getting so paranoid about these days?
mike_twincities | June 29, 2005, 2:02pm | #
Never seen Time Pilot for Xbox, but I'm not really a console gamer...As for Postal 2, it is quite therapuetic, in a sick sort-of way. The sound bites are great. Imagine blowing someone away and quipping, "Now that's what I call welfare reform." Or, "I was just out here enjoying my second amendment rights when all you people had to freak out on me."
Ah, good stuff, if your're an adult.
Out here.
Mr. Nice Guy | June 29, 2005, 2:09pm | #
I would bet the ranch that Timepilot can be found on the internet for downloading, along with endless other classic video games. Haven't done it myself, though. My computer's hard-drive is already strained with other..material..duncan | June 29, 2005, 3:08pm | #
Gee, thanks, Senator Jackass. I haven't heard yet of "25 to life". Now it's on my buy list. Eidos makes great games.Yep, that was my first thought when I heard about this a week ago. Schumer's ringing endorsement made me go look up this game (which I hadn't heard of before). Turns out it has a pretty interesting concept... go through the story of a gangster trying to get out of the game and a good cop trying to catch him, from either perspective. If they actually make the story compelling (I'm not betting the farm on that one), this could actually be quite interesting.
I'm sure Eidos would like to thank Schumer for the free advertising...
duncan | June 29, 2005, 3:15pm | #
And another thing... i've played video games since I was four and I've yet to kill anyone.But I have run around a room while eating little dots, and thinking I was being chased by ghosts a couple of times...
Green Hornet | June 29, 2005, 3:22pm | #
I think that there is an alternate theory worth examining that video games may reduce actual violence by giving young males a (virtual) channel for their aggressive tendencies. This a theory worth study.Males have aggressive and anti-social tendencies, not just in human beings, but in the rest of the animal world, as well. Isn't is plausible that video games allow young males to channel those tendencies into (non-violent) activities. Who knows, this may (in part) explain the falling crime rate.
Doesn't Pac-man actually encourage drug use? He eats a little white pill and suddenly can tackle all those issues chasing him....
Someone should write their politician.
Someone should write their politician.
Dogzilla | June 29, 2005, 3:55pm | #
"Doesn't Pac-man actually encourage drug use? He eats a little white pill and suddenly can tackle all those issues chasing him...."The rise of Pac-man did correspond to (thus, cause) the rise of cocaine in the early 80's. But Pong was the true "gateway game". Damn I'm old.
Lowdog | June 29, 2005, 3:56pm | #
That postal game sounds sweet. Do they make it for the PC?I suppose I can figure that one out on my own, of course.
I've been playing The Chronicles of Riddick, and in that game, you can sneak up on people and snap their neck, jam a shiv in their throat and watch the blood spew out, or, as I just recently found out, knee-cap them so they go down to a kneeling position and then bash their skull in. Hasn't really made me want to go do any of that in real life, although it does make me laugh maniacally at times.
CAT_Violations | June 29, 2005, 3:57pm | #
Now now, zach, shouting obsencities and launching personal attacks on another poster isn't a very good way to keep the conversation civil and facilitate the exchange of ideas.It's more like something Hitler would do.
joe-
I think the Hitler comparison is a little over the top. Maybe if they were enacting racist laws, torturing people, imprisoning them without due process, illegally experimenting on human subjects, confiscating property, attempting to silence dissent, attempting to dictate where certain groups lived, trying to keep certain groups out of certain occupations, trying to limit or prevent the reproduction of certain groups, etc, etc, etc. you might have a point.
Of course as a supporter of free speech I support your ability to make the comparison, I do believe it is a bit of an exaggeration. Next you'll be comparing people that use psychiatry for abuse and supression to the Soviets.
Mike_twincities | June 29, 2005, 4:11pm | #
Lowdog: yes, they do. Google for Postal 2.Have fun!
Live free, fight or fall.
joe | June 29, 2005, 4:13pm | #
"But I have run around a room while eating little dots, and thinking I was being chased by ghosts a couple of times..."Brilliant! Ha!
zach | June 29, 2005, 4:29pm | #
CAT,how do you know for sure i don't do all those things in my spare time?
and for the record, i'm pretty sure he was joking.
drf | June 29, 2005, 4:32pm | #
Phew, Zach. Thanks.And Zach, ve know what yoo doo in zee schpare taem. Ve have vayz of findink ooout.
Und ve disapprovf ovf yooor antiks wit zee rutabega in zee ramada inn outschide of Davenport.
Brett | June 29, 2005, 4:54pm | #
Mr. Nice Guy, nice to know. My wife and I actually get to the movie theater 30 mins early so we can get in a game of Ms. Pacman before the movie starts. Oooooold school.I miss my Atari 2400 and Commodore 64. Just another WASP male scared of change, I guess. ;^)
parse | June 29, 2005, 5:01pm | #
Bailey's description of M rated games: "M rated games are for players who are 17 years old or older. "Does that mean anything? "Sales of M rated games are restricted to players who are 17 years old or older." I would disagree with that, but I can understand what it means. But it seems to me Bailey's assertion should be void for vagueness.
CAT_Violations | June 29, 2005, 5:08pm | #
how do you know for sure i don't do all those things in my spare time?My point exactly, just like zee germans.
and for the record, i'm pretty sure he was joking.
I gathered that. My comment was sort of a joke as well, aimed at those people that say comparisons to the Nazis, Soviets, etc. are never appropriate. The fact is that those regimes did a lot of tyrannical things before they got to purges and genocide, so someone else doesn't need to approach their level of murder and destruction before comparisons are acceptable and valid.
In response to Stevo Darkly's wish for a first person shooter high school destruction game, RockStar is coming out with a GTA-like game called Bully where you play a 14-15 yrs. old prep school kid who dishes out swirlies and manipulates the teachers.
Stevo Darkly | June 29, 2005, 5:51pm | #
Then they need to come out with Bully 2: Misfits' Revenge.Jadagul | June 29, 2005, 11:42pm | #
For all of you nostalgic for old-school games...this doesn't go back quite as far as the Atari, but Nintendo's next console, codenamed Revolution, will let you download classic games that played on previous systems.Mr. Nice Guy | June 30, 2005, 7:57am | #
"But I have run around a room while eating little dots, and thinking I was being chased by ghosts a couple of times..."Ditto LOL! Dude, you gotta be careful when you ride that blue unicorn.
God, I feel like I should be in an old age home. I loved my Atari 2600 and thought I was king shit for owning a Commodore 64 WITH A DISK DRIVE!
This is one of the very rare things I am optimistic about. The electronic gaming evolution over such a short time has been truly astounding. I just hope I'm around when it becomes something profoundly immersive.
I still play my Atari 2600. Scotch and Super Breakout is a potent combination. If anyone reads MAKE magazine, they had a short article about a guy who built an Atari 2600 handheld -- now THAT is something I want.