Charles V. Peña says don't listen to porky politicians trying to stay on the defense gravy train.
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Comments to "New at Reason":
Eddy | May 20, 2005, 10:56pm | #
Just picking a nit. The naval shipyard is in Kittery Maine, it's just called the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard. Portsmouth, NH is just across the river but there is no Portsmouth Maine.One thing the article fails to mention is what happens when a base closes. This has already happened in Portsmouth, NH in 1991 when Pease AF Base closed. There is still an Air Nat. Guard presence there but there is also a Marriott, a brewery, a golf course and an Ingersoll Rand plant, just to name a few. Unfortunately, a large portion was paid with development grants but still the local economy didn't collapse. So does anybody know what to do with a seaport? After the marinas, hotels, restaurants and luxury condos are built of course.
Captian Awesome | May 20, 2005, 11:51pm | #
I don't know if there's a better place to post this, or if these numbers are even right, but I just spotted this on Steakandcheese.com (not work or self respect safe)Date: 05/20/2005
Author: U.S. 17-1
There have been an average of 160,000 troops stationed in Iraq during the last 22 months. During this time the firearm death total was 2,112 for a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000 (per month). The firearm death rate in Washington DC is 80.6 per 100,000. That means that you are more likely to be shot and killed in our Nation's Capitol, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation, than you are in Iraq. Conclusion: We should immediately pull out of Washington, D.C.
P.S. and I do know that the danger isn't guns as much as it's IEDs.
Senator Charles Schumer | May 21, 2005, 2:59am | #
Captian Awesome-Thank-you for bringing the Iraqi firearms fatalities to my attention. I am currently drafting legislation that would ban firearm possesion by any person in Iraq, including US soldiers.
kevrob | May 21, 2005, 4:43am | #
Fort Ord is now home to the California State University at Monterey Bay campus, a University of California at Santa Cruz research center, and the Monterey Institute of International Studies.Thereby replacing a Federal tax-sucking installation with several ones that leach off state taxpayers.
Kevin
Captian Awesome | May 21, 2005, 4:51am | #
Why is it that trying to be part of the solution alwys ends up being part of the problem?If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Barry P. | May 21, 2005, 6:30am | #
Captain: The "steakandcheese.com" article you cite is flawed.(1) according to the CDC, the total number of DC firearm deaths in 2000 (last year of data available) was 195 (accident, suicide, murder, police shootings) in a population of 572,000. That's a rate of 34 per 100,000 per year.
(2) The "average of 160,000 troops" is high. The average is probably lower than 150,000.
(3) The Iraq death rate is per month, the DC one is per year. On a per-month basis, the real rate in DC is less than 3 per 100,000.
Last time I checked, 3 was a bit less than 60, unless this is the new Republican math.
kwais | May 21, 2005, 10:12am | #
I am in Baghdad, and have been in DC before also. My guess is that on average it is more dangerous statistically speaking to be an American in DC, than to be one in Washington.I am not sure though, there are a whole lot more Americans in DC than there are in Iraq. Maybe if you narrowed it down to neighborhoods in DC to generally in Iraq.
There are a lot more than 160,000 Americans if you include contractors, State Dept, ect.
Two other confounding variables to mention are, that a) the danger to a middle class or person of the same social class of the average soldier, is probably much lower. I imaging that the vast majority of crime victims in DC are the very poor. And b) the danger to Iraqi's in Iraq is probably much higher.
But Captain Awesomes original suggestion that we pull out of DC to prevent further casualties still seems apropriate.
The Wine Commonsewer | May 21, 2005, 12:23pm | #
Captain, I am as cynical as you and have been at it longer. I concluded long ago that you're right, there is no hope, and my suggestion to you is this:Live your own life to the fullest, do what you want to do, keep a very low profile (just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they ain't out to get you), ignore them as best you can, & don't be a catchy.
What I mean is don't ask the city for a permit to install your new water heater, just do it and keep your mouth shut. Don't buy a dog license unless the city nails you and forces you to do it. Don't complain too loud about the bad roads to the county supes or they might just send an inspector to make sure you have all the right permits. Don't tell the IRS guy that he's an unwitting dupe of a fascist system and that he's bound to rot in hell for screwing the taxpayers. Teach your kids that there's more to freedom than the right to wear a pink mohawk to school.
Give a little money to your fav libertarian outfit and be happy that there is some progress in some areas. Realize that technology is liberating and it's changing so fast that the government has trouble keeping up. That's a blessing.
It is tough to be upbeat when you know we're right but there's only five of us.
Always Darkest Before the Blackest Regards, TWC
The Wine Commonsewer | May 21, 2005, 12:26pm | #
Larry, when they closed El Toro, March AFB, & Norton AFB, they pretty much didn't let private enterprise get involved until way late in the game.Captian Awesome (the next morning) | May 21, 2005, 1:03pm | #
Thanks TWC that was good advice. I may just break my habit of not listening to anyone to take that to heart.And on the subject of base closures. Really, how could we expect anything else. I'd say I liked seeing Leiberman (the first senator I ever had the privilege of actually dislikeing. I was an avid videogame player in highschool when he attacked the scene) have to deal with this. But he knows he probably can't win and is turning it into a big PR stunt to show how much he cares about the common man. Damn that asshat (I love that word).
Dave | May 21, 2005, 1:31pm | #
Its funny how people who are supposed to be for the greater good can quickly forget about that when a few votes are at stake.Captain A
Remember small victories are what is important. So just don't follow stupid rules. Nice quote from "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" on this:
"I will not accept rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
The Wine Commonsewer | May 21, 2005, 5:12pm | #
The whole base closing thing is dopey anyway (BTW my kid's baseball team just won their first playoff game an hour ago 15-0).Look at El Toro. They move the 3rd Air Wing to Miramar, kick the Navy out, send Top Gun to Fallon (you don't want to be stationed at Fallon NAS) and what have they gained? They had to build new facilities in Fallon & the people in San Diego are still bitching about the jet noise at Miramar.
Years ago they closed Long Beach Naval Shipyards, moved everything to San Diego, found out that was a mistake, and then had to un-close LB all over again.
dead_elvis | May 21, 2005, 6:21pm | #
My nit to pick with the article is that its success stories, Austin and Fort Ord, are a little cherry picked. Austin happened to be growing into a major metro area, and California, well, look at real estate there. A big empty space with weeds in the middle of nowhere is worth bajillions. Anything would succeed.On the other hand, a big empty space in Arkansas, or South Dakota is, well, just a big empty space.
I'm not saying I disagree with the premise; defense spending should be for national defense, not a "save our town" campaign. But be realistic about the disruption in peopels' lives and why some base re-use ideas become successes and some are failures. As a recent newspaper article about the base closing in Blytheville in the 90s said:
"Six months after Eaker ("A-ker") closed, Gurley was quoted in The Commercial Appeal giving advice to future towns hit by base closures: "One thing the leaders of a community have to do is keep a very positive attitude, even though you're lying through your teeth."
joe | May 21, 2005, 6:22pm | #
You need private enterprise in the game as early as possible, AND you need significant publc investment in reprogramming, AND you need (most of the time, but not always) to maintain/create some big public use that serves as an economic or institutional magnet.But you have to tie the reuse of the land to what the market is doing, and is going to do, in the region.
In a growing, thriving region, a closed base provides the opportunity to steer quite a lot of growth into an already-developed area that already is a center of the area in terms of its activity and access and even character. This can reduce the footprint of growth and make sure that it strengthens, rather than undermines, desired patterns of activity.
If these whining pols are smart, they're just posing so they can secure funding for redevelopment projects. I bet there are some great big old buildings in and about those close seaports, especially the sea ports.
Twba | May 22, 2005, 1:13pm | #
If these whining pols are smart, they're just posing so they can secure funding for redevelopment projects.They're whining for more money to be confiscated from wage slaves and given to wealthy developers.
Donald Trump | May 22, 2005, 5:42pm | #
They're whining for more money to be confiscated from wage slaves and given to wealthy developers.I'm pleased to unveil the plans for the brand new Trump Marina in Portsmouth, Maine. Featuring restaurants, theaters, and spas, it will be staffed by hot chicks, every square inch will be covered in real gold, and it will bear the Trump name, just to give it that extra bit of class. It will be HUGE!
Donald Trump | May 22, 2005, 5:43pm | #
Oh, and in order to build a parking lot I'll need to evict a few old ladies from their homes.joe | May 23, 2005, 9:28am | #
"They're whining for more money to be confiscated from wage slaves and given to wealthy developers."And you're whining because some of the funds that will be spent to achieve a public good will end up in the hands of wealthy people. This doesn't seem to be a problem for you when the public good is equipping the military or building highways. But, wow what a shocker, when a libertoid opposed a certain public good, out comes the class warfare.
Oh boo hoo, we can't have a redevelopment program, some of the contractors have successfull businesses! Real smart.
Ironchef | May 23, 2005, 10:28am | #
"AND you need (most of the time, but not always) to maintain/create some big public use that serves as an economic or institutional magnet."It's highly suspect that "big public use serves as an economic magnet" - if this were true, tested and proven by history, why, you'd think the gubmint would just use it everywhere. Examples? Infrastructure? - Bridges, tunnels, roads> - nah. Government buildings? "They don’t draw people in." Airports? - you think government money is necessary to build an airport? (particularly if all subsidies were stopped) Universities? - are these a net economic gain to the community? Still trying to think of a government stimulus that works, that is worth it, and that is necessary in the first place.
Granted, I can see some small money given to help the transition, where necessary - but boy, is that mostly unnecessary.
But the biggest question - Why? Why take my money and use it on things I do not approve of, and given to people I do not know, for reasons I do not approve of?
joe | May 23, 2005, 12:09pm | #
Well, chef, some public uses do serve as a magnet, and some don't. City Halls, for example. Or Post Offices. Admittedly, back office operations (like Federal Triangle in DC) don't do much for the area (other than some lunchtime diners and drycleaning). Jane Jacobs goes on about the damage done to urban cores by the concept of a "Civic Center," in which all the government buildings that should be downtown landmarks are consolidated into an isolated campus.University buildings boths put people on the streets and bolster the city's and region's overall economic prospects.
But an important point chef raises is that it isn't a good idea to put in a use just as makework. The institutional component should be addressed through the siting decisions of needed, planned facilities first. If the county needs a new courthouse and is trying to figure out where to put it, they should look towards the closed base. Building an un-needed courthouse just so you have something to put in the base probably isn't such a great idea.
As for your last question, because our society has a public sector that is funded by tax dollars. We do this because having such promotes prosperity, improves the quality of life, and furthers other values. To be blunt, comments by people opposed to the existence of a government about the best way for the government to go about its business are sway me about as much as sexual pointers from Fred Phelps.
rob | May 23, 2005, 5:50pm | #
"As for your last question, because our society has a public sector that is funded by tax dollars. We do this because having such promotes prosperity, improves the quality of life, and furthers other values." - joeYep. Every time I think of the gov't, I think of the myriad ways it screws me out of my paycheck in ways that promotes my prosperity. Every time I think of how that money improves the quality of my life by failing to repair roads and handing over tax breaks to giant corporations.
Then I remember how the gov't furthers other values and it makes it SO much better! I love the way it discourages people from thinking for themsleves, particularly in ways that aren't approved by a gov't-sponsored ad campaign (Dept of Health, Dept of Education). Of course, my favorite is the manner in which it instills a sense of entitlement to a good retirement and a wonderful standard of living by redistributing wealth against people's wills.
Dude... I've been gone nearly a week and I come back to this?!?